IRC log of wcag2ict on 2012-06-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:33:49 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:33:49 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/19-wcag2ict-irc
13:34:56 [Andi]: chair: Andi_Snow-Weaver
13:35:36 [Andi]: regrets: David_MacDonald, Mike_Pluke, Loïc_Martínez_Normand
13:36:29 [Andi]: rrsagent, off
14:04:24 [MaryJo]: scribe: MaryJo
14:04:29 [Andi]: zakim, next item
14:04:30 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Action items review" taken up [from Andi]
14:04:41 [alex_]: alex_ has joined #wcag2ict
14:04:54 [greggvanderheiden]: greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
14:05:48 [greggvanderheiden]: agree with judy
14:05:54 [MaryJo]: AS: Will attend WCAG working group twice monthly to give an update to the group on the task force progress.
14:06:13 [Andi]: close action-6
14:06:28 [trackbot]: ACTION-6 Set up regular reporting to WCAG working group closed
14:06:53 [MaryJo]: AS: Actions 10 and 12 will go out on the survey later this week.
14:06:59 [janina]: janina has joined #wcag2ict
14:07:20 [Zakim]: +??P27
14:07:31 [janina]: zakim, ??P27 is Janina
14:07:31 [Zakim]: +Janina; got it
14:07:53 [greggvanderheiden]: I am but we can take this back up in a bit
14:08:47 [MaryJo]: PC: Action on 2.4.1, Gregg proposed edits to improve the language. Wants to hear from Gregg before this goes out for survey again.
14:09:18 [Andi]: zakim, next item
14:09:18 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "June 15th Meeting Prep Survey, starting with 3.3.2 Labels or Instructions" taken up [from Andi]
14:09:26 [MaryJo]: AS: Need to resurvey 2.4.1
14:09:50 [Andi]: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN152012/results#xq5
14:10:59 [korn]: korn has joined #wcag2ict
14:11:02 [pierce]: +q
14:11:18 [Andi]: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN152012/results
14:12:11 [janina]: +1 to a programmatic association
14:12:52 [korn]: Pierce: look at http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/minimize-error-cues.html#labeldef
14:13:49 [Andi]: s/PC: Action on 2.4.1/PK: Action on 2.4.1/
14:15:42 [MaryJo]: AS: Propose that we ask WCAG to add to the intent that a note that if labels are provided that they be programatically determinable per 1.3.1.
14:17:17 [MaryJo]: AS: For the linked definitions, we need to revisit this when we work on resolving the term 'content'.
14:19:53 [MaryJo]: action: Gregg to ask WCAG to modify the INTENT of 3.3.2 to add a note: If labels are provided they must be programmatically determinable per 1.3.1.
14:19:53 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-13 - Ask WCAG to modify the INTENT of 3.3.2 to add a note: If labels are provided they must be programmatically determinable per 1.3.1. [on Gregg Vanderheiden - due 2012-06-26].
14:21:05 [MaryJo]: RESOLUTION: Accept 3.3.2 as proposed with a note to ourselves to revisit with definition of the term "label" which uses term "content"
14:21:19 [Andi]: zakim, next item
14:21:19 [Zakim]: I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Andi
14:21:41 [Andi]: zakim, who is on the queue?
14:21:41 [Zakim]: I see pierce on the speaker queue
14:21:46 [Andi]: ack pierce
14:21:52 [pierce]: -q
14:21:58 [Andi]: zakim, next item
14:21:58 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "June 19th Meeting Prep Survey" taken up [from Andi]
14:22:21 [Andi]: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN192012/results
14:23:19 [MaryJo]: AS: 2.1.1 Keyboard
14:23:22 [MaryJo]: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN192012/results#xq4
14:24:19 [MaryJo]: RESOLUTION: Accept 2.1.1 proposal #3
14:25:24 [pierce]: +q
14:25:31 [MaryJo]: AS: 1.1.1 Non-text content
14:25:44 [MaryJo]: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN192012/results#xq1
14:26:02 [pierce]: -q
14:26:59 [Andi]: This SC applies directly as written, and as described above in WCAG intent.
14:27:06 [Andi]: CAPTCHAs do not currently appear outside of the Web. However, if they do appear, this guidance is accurate. If they do not appear then, (as with any situation where an SC talks about something that is not present) the SC would be met automatically.
14:27:13 [Andi]: (see introduction for the way to interpret the terms "Content")
14:27:45 [MaryJo]: RESOLUTION: Accept 1.1.1 as amended in the meeting notes.
14:28:34 [pierce]: +q
14:28:46 [MaryJo]: 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics
14:29:01 [MaryJo]: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN192012/results#xq2
14:29:01 [Zakim]: -Cooper
14:30:33 [korn]: q+
14:31:02 [Andi]: ack pierce
14:32:04 [MaryJo]: Pierce: Concerned about bringing in the topic of tactile hardware into this.
14:32:38 [MaryJo]: GV: We are trying to remove a restriction where documentation needs to describe the tactile aspects of hardware.
14:33:12 [Andi]: WCAG was designed to apply only to controls that were displayed on screen. The intent was to prevent references to visual or auditory cues. When applying this to instructions for operating physical hardware controls (e.g. a web kiosk with dedicated content), tactile cues on the hardware might be described (e.g. the arrow shaped key, the round key on the right side).
14:33:32 [Andi]: This success criterion was not intended to prevent the use of tactile cues in instructions.
14:35:15 [Andi]: This success criterion is not intended to prevent the use of tactile cues in instructions.
14:35:29 [Andi]: ack korn
14:36:00 [MaryJo]: RESOLUTION: Accept 1.3.3 as amended in the meeting.
14:36:24 [MaryJo]: 4.1.1 Parsing
14:36:42 [MaryJo]: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN192012/results#xq3
14:37:05 [MaryJo]: AS: There's a lot of comments that this doesn't apply to software.
14:37:14 [korn]: q+
14:37:29 [pierce]: +q
14:38:15 [MaryJo]: GV: We no longer differentiate between hardware and software because the lines are blurring. Could apply to books, documents, documents with embedded javascript, etc. which could be handled or parsed in the same fashion.
14:39:43 [MaryJo]: GV: Most software isn't in a markup language and it would automatically comply.
14:39:58 [greggvanderheiden]: I q+
14:40:05 [greggvanderheiden]: +
14:40:10 [greggvanderheiden]: Q+
14:40:32 [Judy]: zakim, who's making noise?
14:40:42 [Zakim]: Judy, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
14:41:09 [Andi]: ack korn
14:41:27 [Andi]: ack pierce
14:41:46 [MaryJo]: PK: The issue is whether this makes sense and meets a disability need. Real-world AT's don't parse XML. Only daisy or braille converters parse, but don't see how this applies to documents and software outside of the Web.
14:43:13 [korn]: q+
14:43:21 [Andi]: ack gregg
14:43:23 [MaryJo]: Pierce: Well-formedness in documents are generally run by software rules. This applies to both worlds when the user could introduce errors in tags, etc.
14:45:03 [MaryJo]: GV: We had an earlier discussion that it is hard to draw a line between documents and software, so we moved away from that.
14:47:24 [MaryJo]: GV: People do create documents that are in a markup language that aren't delivered on the Web, so this applies. In cases where it the SC doesn't apply, they automatically comply.
14:47:37 [janina]: q+ to say that "markup language" isn't just html, i.e. docx
14:47:40 [Andi]: q+ Al_Hoffman
14:47:46 [Andi]: ack korn
14:48:10 [MaryJo]: PK: Provisions that have to do with authoring are covered by ATAG.
14:48:52 [janina]: q-
14:49:34 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
14:49:45 [Andi]: ack al
14:49:47 [MaryJo]: PK: There is HTML markup documents deliverd outside of the Web, but these won't be parsed by AT. Maybe we should scope this to non-web HTML documents but beyond that, we don't have the authority to address them.
14:50:25 [janina]: q+ to ask what about HTML5 canvas?
14:50:57 [MaryJo]: AH: There is a lot of markup language out there, but most wouldn't be valid for parsing. Should say it applies to HTML as written.
14:51:02 [greggvanderheiden]: ask WCAG to add to intent. This is meant to apply to Web Markup languages and not to other markup languages that are not parsed by regular web browsers and Assistive technologies.
14:51:03 [Andi]: ack gregg
14:51:47 [korn]: q+
14:51:53 [pierce]: -q
14:52:33 [pierce]: +q
14:52:33 [greggvanderheiden]: ask WCAG to add to intent. This is meant to apply to Web Markup languages and not to other markup languages that are not parsed by regular web browsers
14:53:17 [greggvanderheiden]: This is meant to apply to Web Markup languages and not to other markup languages that are not parsed by regular web browsers and Assistive technologies.
14:53:48 [MaryJo]: PK: We need to include assistive technologies in gregg's proposed WCAG intent update.
14:53:51 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
14:53:55 [Andi]: ack janina
14:53:55 [Zakim]: janina, you wanted to ask what about HTML5 canvas?
14:54:15 [MaryJo]: JS: HTML5 has new markup constraints, so saying HTML alone may not be sufficient.
14:54:22 [Andi]: ack korn
14:54:39 [korn]: q+
14:54:44 [Andi]: ack pierce
14:54:58 [janina]: Regret I need to leave to prepare for the Open A11y telecon
14:55:02 [janina]: janina has left #wcag2ict
14:55:06 [Zakim]: -Janina
14:55:07 [Andi]: ack gregg
14:57:54 [Andi]: q+ Al_Hoffman
14:58:41 [Andi]: ack korn
14:59:18 [Andi]: s/Regret I need to leave to prepare for the Open A11y telecon//
14:59:51 [Zakim]: -Bruce_Bailey
15:00:24 [Andi]: ack Al
15:01:01 [MaryJo]: PK: Any viewer that converts HTML to show content outside of the Web. Internal non-web formats such as XML are not parsed by AT.
15:01:57 [MaryJo]: BB: Some readers that are considered ATs do parse the XML.
15:02:05 [pierce]: +q
15:02:06 [Andi]: s/BB/AH/
15:02:13 [greggvanderheiden]: q+
15:02:15 [Andi]: ack pierce
15:03:07 [Andi]: ack gregg
15:03:57 [Andi]: q+
15:04:43 [greggvanderheiden]: ask WCAG to add to intent. This is meant to apply to Web Markup languages and not to other markup languages that are not parsed by regular web browsers and assistive technologies.
15:04:56 [MaryJo]: GV: If we get WCAG to add in the intent as described above, they can set the constraints. We can't say that this doesn't apply, but say how it is handled when applied to non-web situations.
15:05:15 [korn]: q+
15:05:23 [Andi]: ack Andi
15:06:48 [Andi]: ack korn
15:07:29 [Judy]: q+
15:07:34 [MaryJo]: PK: Would like clarification on what Web markup languages are covered. Is PDF, SVG, etc. covered? Are they parsed by AT?
15:08:19 [Andi]: This is meant to apply to markup languages that are parsed by regular web browsers and assistive technologies. It is not meant to apply to markup languages that are not parsed by regular web browsers and assistive technologies.
15:08:40 [korn]: q+
15:08:44 [Andi]: ack judy
15:09:44 [korn]: q-
15:12:15 [pierce]: +q
15:12:17 [Judy]: q+
15:12:27 [Andi]: q+
15:12:27 [pierce]: -q
15:12:27 [pierce]: +q
15:13:01 [MaryJo]: JB: Need to be cautious about what we ask WCAG to add to the intent as there are many tools available to automatically fix/generate the markup.
15:13:11 [Judy]: q+ to emphasize that there are cases where manually-generated "vs" automatically-generated is not a binary question.
15:13:19 [Judy]: zakim, who's on the phone?
15:13:19 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Kiran_Keja, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Al_Hoffman, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Pierce_Crowell, Alex_Li, Peter_Korn, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Judy
15:13:53 [Andi]: ack judy
15:13:53 [Zakim]: Judy, you wanted to emphasize that there are cases where manually-generated "vs" automatically-generated is not a binary question.
15:15:55 [MaryJo]: JB: There is a class of documents that are only automatically generated. The more traditional Web documents manually-generated vs. automatically-generated is not a binary thing.
15:15:55 [pierce]: -q
15:16:21 [Judy]: zakim, who's making noise?
15:16:24 [Andi]: This is meant to apply to markup languages that are parsed by regular web browsers and assistive technologies. It is not meant to apply to markup languages that are not parsed by regular web browsers and assistive technologies.
15:16:28 [MaryJo]: AS: Propose instead of focusing on how it's generated, but how it's parsed.
15:16:32 [Zakim]: Judy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Andi_Snow_Weaver (62%)
15:16:54 [korn]: Works for me.
15:16:58 [Judy]: zakim, your noise-identication skills are down a bit today, eh?
15:16:58 [Zakim]: I don't understand your question, Judy.
15:17:00 [Andi]: ack Andi
15:17:03 [pierce]: +q
15:17:15 [alex_]: q+
15:17:29 [greggvanderheiden]: This is not meant to apply to markup languages that are not parsed by regular web browsers and assistive technologies.
15:17:30 [Andi]: This is not meant to apply to markup languages that are not parsed directly by regular web browsers and assistive technologies.
15:17:33 [Andi]: ack kiran
15:17:46 [Andi]: ack pierce
15:18:17 [Andi]: ack alex
15:19:49 [Andi]: This is not meant to apply to markup languages that are not parsed directly by general purpose web browsers and assistive technologies.
15:21:12 [greggvanderheiden]: This is meant to apply to markup languages that are parsed by general purpose web browsers and assistive technologies. It is not meant to apply to markup languages that are not parsed by regular web browsers and assistive technologies. If authors do not write or edit markup languages directly the can assume this provision is met.
15:22:11 [greggvanderheiden]: This is not meant to apply to markup languages that are not parsed by regular web browsers and assistive technologies. If authors do not write or edit markup languages directly they can assume this provision is met.
15:22:39 [korn]: q+
15:23:02 [Andi]: ack korn
15:25:04 [MaryJo]: PK: Recommend we have 2 requests 1) intent for what markup languages are applicable. 2) Applied to markup not directly edited by an author.
15:25:57 [greggvanderheiden]: ask WCAG to add to intent. This is not meant to apply to markup languages that are not parsed by general purpose web browsers and assistive technologies. If authors do not write or edit markup languages directly they can assume this provision is met.
15:26:34 [Andi]: action: Gregg to ask WCAG working group to add to 4.1.1 INTENT: This is not meant to apply to markup languages that are not parsed by general purpose web browsers and assistive technologies. If authors do not write or edit markup languages directly they can assume this provision is met.
15:26:34 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-14 - Ask WCAG working group to add to 4.1.1 INTENT: This is not meant to apply to markup languages that are not parsed by general purpose web browsers and assistive technologies. If authors do not write or edit markup languages directly they can assume this provision is met. [on Gregg Vanderheiden - due 2012-06-26].
15:28:13 [Zakim]: -Al_Hoffman
15:28:23 [MaryJo]: AS: There is a new survey with 7 items in it for next meeting.
15:28:26 [Zakim]: -Alex_Li
15:28:27 [Zakim]: -Pierce_Crowell
15:28:29 [Zakim]: -Andi_Snow_Weaver
15:28:31 [Zakim]: -Judy
15:28:32 [Zakim]: -Mary_Jo_Mueller
15:28:34 [Zakim]: -Kiran_Keja
15:28:46 [Zakim]: -Gregg_Vanderheiden
15:30:46 [Andi]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:30:46 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/19-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
15:30:51 [korn]: korn has left #wcag2ict
15:31:30 [Andi]: zakim, bye
15:31:30 [Zakim]: leaving. As of this point the attendees were +0162859aaaa, Cooper, Kiran_Keja, Andi_Snow_Weaver, +1.202.447.aabb, Al_Hoffman, +1.512.255.aacc, +1.410.965.aadd, Mary_Jo_Mueller,
15:31:30 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #wcag2ict
15:31:33 [Andi]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:31:33 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/19-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
15:31:33 [Zakim]: ... Pierce_Crowell, Alex_Li, +1.510.334.aaee, Peter_Korn, +1.202.272.aaff, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Judy, Bruce_Bailey, Janina
15:31:57 [Andi]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:31:57 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/19-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
15:33:21 [Andi]: present+ Peter_Korn, Pierce_Crowell, Alex_Li, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Judy_Brewer, Bruce_Bailey, Janina_Sajka
15:33:23 [Andi]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:33:23 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/19-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
15:35:51 [Andi]: s/revisit with definition of the term "label" which uses term "content"/revisit with discussion of term "content" ("label" definition referenced in the SC uses the term "content"/
15:36:05 [Andi]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:36:05 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/19-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
15:36:35 [Andi]: s/uses the term "content"/uses the term "content")/
15:36:39 [Andi]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:36:39 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/19-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
15:41:32 [Andi]: action: Gregg to ask WCAG to add to 1.3.3 INTENT: WCAG was designed to apply only to controls that were displayed on screen. The intent was to prevent references to visual or auditory cues. When applying this to instructions for operating physical hardware controls (e.g. a web kiosk with dedicated content), tactile cues on the hardware might be described (e.g. the arrow shaped key, the round
15:41:32 [Andi]: key on the right side). This success criterion is not intended to prevent the use of tactile cues in instructions.
15:41:32 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-15 - Ask WCAG to add to 1.3.3 INTENT: WCAG was designed to apply only to controls that were displayed on screen. The intent was to prevent references to visual or auditory cues. When applying this to instructions for operating physical hardware controls (e.g. a web kiosk with dedicated content), tactile cues on the hardware might be described (e.g. the arrow shaped key, the round [on Gregg Vanderheiden - due 2012-06-26].
15:41:51 [Andi]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:41:51 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/19-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
15:46:49 [Andi]: meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force
15:46:52 [Andi]: rrsagent, make minutes
15:46:52 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/19-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
18:01:21 [Andi]: rrsagent, bye
18:01:21 [RRSAgent]: I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/19-wcag2ict-actions.rdf :
18:01:21 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Gregg to ask WCAG to modify the INTENT of 3.3.2 to add a note: If labels are provided they must be programmatically determinable per 1.3.1. [1]
18:01:21 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/19-wcag2ict-irc#T14-19-53
18:01:21 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Gregg to ask WCAG working group to add to 4.1.1 INTENT: This is not meant to apply to markup languages that are not parsed by general purpose web browsers and assistive technologies. If authors do not write or edit markup languages directly they can assume this provision is met. [2]
18:01:21 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/19-wcag2ict-irc#T15-26-34
18:01:21 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Gregg to ask WCAG to add to 1.3.3 INTENT: WCAG was designed to apply only to controls that were displayed on screen. The intent was to prevent references to visual or auditory cues. When applying this to instructions for operating physical hardware controls (e.g. a web kiosk with dedicated content), tactile cues on the hardware might be described (e.g. the arrow shaped key, the round [3]
18:01:21 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/06/19-wcag2ict-irc#T15-41-32