14:01:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:47 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/15-wcag2ict-irc
14:01:49 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:01:51 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2428
14:01:51 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start now
14:01:52 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
14:01:52 <trackbot> Date: 15 June 2012
14:01:55 <Andi> zakim, this will be 2ict#
14:01:55 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, Andi
14:02:11 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:02:11 <Zakim> WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has not yet started, shadi
14:02:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, alex, MaryJo, greggvanderheiden, korn, mapluke, MichaelC, Andi, shadi, trackbot
14:02:12 <MichaelC> zakim, this is 2428
14:02:12 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM
14:02:21 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:02:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see +0162859aaaa, ??P14, Andi_Snow_Weaver, [Microsoft], +1.512.255.aabb, Shadi, Bruce_Bailey, +1.608.514.aacc, [Oracle]
14:02:29 <Zakim> +Cooper
14:02:47 <korn> Zakim, Oracle is me
14:02:47 <Zakim> +korn; got it
14:02:50 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:02:50 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:03:00 <MichaelC> zakim, aacc is Gregg_Vanderheiden
14:03:00 <Zakim> +Gregg_Vanderheiden; got it
14:03:01 <BBailey> BBailey has joined #wcag2ict
14:03:09 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is Kiran_Kaja
14:03:09 <Zakim> +Kiran_Kaja; got it
14:03:16 <MichaelC> zakim, aabb is Mary_Jo_Mueller
14:03:16 <Zakim> +Mary_Jo_Mueller; got it
14:03:23 <MichaelC> zakim, Microsoft is Alex_Li
14:03:23 <Zakim> +Alex_Li; got it
14:03:49 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P14 is Mike_Pluke
14:03:49 <Zakim> +Mike_Pluke; got it
14:03:59 <shadi> ack me
14:03:59 <Zakim> + +1.410.965.aadd
14:04:13 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:04:13 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:04:15 <MichaelC> zakim, aadd is Pierce_Crowell
14:04:15 <Zakim> +Pierce_Crowell; got it
14:04:35 <Andi> scribe: Andi
14:05:06 <Andi> agenda+ Action items review
14:05:17 <Andi> agenda+ Accept notes for 1.2.2 that were approved for 1.2.4 at 5 June meeting
14:05:25 <korn> q+
14:05:29 <Andi> agenda+ Discussion of "Miscellaneous SC for June 15, 2012<https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN152012/results>"
14:05:44 <Andi> agenda+ Discussion of "Survey for June 5th Meeting<https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN052012/results>" [3] meeting preparation survey results, starting with 2.4.2 Page titled, then 2.4.5 Multiple ways, then 3.1.1 Language of page
14:05:53 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag2ict-tf/2012Jun/0030.html
14:05:57 <Andi> agenda+ Confirm next meeting time; action items
14:06:01 <Andi> zakim, next item
14:06:01 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Action items review" taken up [from Andi]
14:06:55 <Andi> action-5?
14:06:55 <trackbot> ACTION-5 -- Gregg Vanderheiden to take issue to WCAG regarding 3.3.4 intent - did not intend that every web app that edits something has to have a confirmation before proceeding -- due 2012-06-12 -- OPEN
14:06:55 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/5
14:07:15 <Andi> GV: 4 items taken to WCAG working group this week. All approved.
14:07:57 <korn> Pierce: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/open
14:08:04 <janina> janina has joined #wcag2ict
14:08:42 <Andi> https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/3-understandable/33-help-users-avoid-and-correct-mistakes/334-error-prevention-legal-financial-data
14:08:46 <Zakim> +??P32
14:09:12 <janina> zakim, ??P32 is Janina
14:09:12 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
14:09:12 <Pierce> Pierce has joined #wcag2ict
14:10:10 <alex> q+
14:11:10 <Pierce> +q
14:11:41 <alex> q-
14:12:03 <Andi> AL: if we were starting new work, we should reword the success criteria but for now, this solves the issue with having to confirm on every save
14:12:06 <korn> q-
14:12:08 <Andi> ack korn
14:12:38 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:12:58 <Andi> ack pierce
14:13:16 <Andi> ack gregg
14:13:50 <Andi> PC: question about changes that have been made but not saved
14:14:16 <alex> q+
14:15:05 <Andi> GV: 3.3.4 is for catastrophic things - massively deleting data by mistake
14:15:12 <Zakim> -Mike_Pluke
14:15:41 <BBailey> q+
14:16:00 <Andi> ack alex
14:16:10 <shadi> zakim, who is muted?
14:16:10 <Zakim> I see Shadi muted
14:17:05 <Andi> ack bbailey
14:17:37 <Zakim> +??P14
14:18:10 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P14 is Mike_Pluke
14:18:10 <Zakim> +Mike_Pluke; got it
14:19:11 <Andi> RESOLOUTION: accept 3.3.4 Proposal #1 now that WCAG intent has been clarified
14:19:59 <Pierce> +q
14:20:35 <korn> I see 4 total open action items, at: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/open
14:20:59 <Andi> action-9?
14:20:59 <trackbot> ACTION-9 -- Gregg Vanderheiden to work with with Peter Korn to create submission to WCAG to add text to 2.4.7 understanding doc to clarify focus indicator and single item issues -- due 2012-06-19 -- OPEN
14:20:59 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG2ICT-TF/track/actions/9
14:21:42 <Andi> GV: text added to INTENT for 2.4.7
14:21:43 <Andi> https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/2-operable/24-provide-ways-to-help-users-navigate-find-content-and-determine-where-they-are/247-focus-visible
14:22:12 <Pierce> -q
14:22:37 <korn> q+
14:22:57 <korn> q-
14:24:34 <korn> We are looking at the text of: https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/2-operable/24-provide-ways-to-help-users-navigate-find-content-and-determine-where-they-are/247-focus-visible
14:25:23 <Andi> RESOLUTION: Accept 2.4.7 Proposal #1 now that WCAG intent has been clarified
14:25:34 <korn> q+
14:25:54 <korn> q-
14:26:12 <Andi> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag2ict-tf/2012Jun/0037.html
14:26:29 <Pierce> +q
14:27:03 <Andi> AS: two more items Gregg has resolved with WCAG working group
14:27:26 <Andi> GV: 1.2.4 and 1.2.9 - intent clarified - not for personal calls between two or more people
14:28:03 <Andi> ack Pierce
14:28:51 <Andi> RESOLUTION: Accept 1.2.4 Proposal #1 now that WCAG intent has been clarified
14:29:05 <Andi> zakim, next item
14:29:05 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Accept notes for 1.2.2 that were approved for 1.2.4 at 5 June meeting" taken up [from Andi]
14:29:54 <Andi> https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/1-perceivable/12-provide-alternatives-for-time-based-media/122-captions-prerecorded
14:30:20 <Andi> RESOLUTION: Accept notes for 1.2.2 that were approved for 1.2.4 at 5 June meeting
14:30:25 <Andi> zakim, close item
14:30:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', Andi
14:30:31 <Andi> zakim, close item 2
14:30:31 <Zakim> agendum 2, Accept notes for 1.2.2 that were approved for 1.2.4 at 5 June meeting, closed
14:30:33 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:30:33 <Zakim> 3. Discussion of "Miscellaneous SC for June 15, 2012<https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN152012/results>" [from Andi]
14:30:37 <Andi> zakim, next item
14:30:37 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Discussion of "Miscellaneous SC for June 15, 2012<https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN152012/results>"" taken up [from Andi]
14:30:54 <Andi> q+
14:31:28 <Andi> ack Andi
14:31:41 <Andi> 1.3.3 Information and relationships
14:31:56 <Andi> MP: summarizes issues
14:32:07 <Pierce> +q
14:32:10 <Andi> MP: Defer closed funcitonality in this pass
14:33:28 <Zakim> -Cooper
14:33:29 <Andi> PC: Proposes removing software developemtn toolkits from the note
14:33:30 <Andi> NOTE: In software, programmatic determinability is best achieved through the use of accessibility services provided by platform software to enable interoperability between software and assistive technologies.
14:33:31 <korn> q+
14:33:39 <Andi> ack pierce
14:33:56 <korn> q-
14:34:30 <korn> q+
14:35:38 <greggvanderheiden> This applies directly as written, and as described in  INTENT  from Understanding WCAG 2.0  (above).
14:35:39 <greggvanderheiden> NOTE: In software, programmatic determinability is best achieved through the use of accessibility services provided by platform software to enable interoperability between software and assistive technologies.
14:37:23 <Andi> PK: perhaps we will find we need a glossary term for programmatically determined
14:37:34 <Andi> GV: don't have a glossary but could put it in the introduction
14:37:36 <Andi> RESOLUTION: Accept 1.3.1 as amended in the meeting
14:38:04 <Andi> 2.4.6 Headings and Labels
14:38:15 <Pierce> +q
14:38:48 <Andi> ack kron
14:38:51 <Andi> ack korn
14:39:05 <Andi> q+ korn
14:39:41 <Andi> ack Pierce
14:41:31 <Pierce> +q
14:42:06 <Andi> ack korn
14:42:17 <Andi> q+ korn
14:44:20 <Andi> ack pierce
14:48:19 <shadi> q+
14:48:57 <korn> q-
14:49:02 <korn> q+
14:49:08 <shadi> ack me
14:49:16 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:49:22 <korn> q-
14:49:22 <korn> q+
14:49:42 <mapluke> Note this gives no guidance about when headings and labels are required —just that if they are provided, they be descriptive. 
14:50:02 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:50:02 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:50:11 <greggvanderheiden> Note that this success criterion does not REQUIRE heading and labels—just that if they are provided, they be descriptive.   Also if headings are provided they must be programmatically determinable per 1.3.1.
14:50:17 <Pierce> +q
14:50:46 <korn> q- last
14:50:58 <korn> q?
14:51:02 <korn> q-
14:51:04 <korn> q+
14:51:12 <Andi> ack gregg
14:51:32 <Andi> ack pierce
14:51:55 <korn> q-
14:52:03 <Andi> PC: concern that if we don't reference 1.3.1, people will think that heading markup is not reuired
14:52:15 <Andi> s/reuired/required/
14:52:27 <korn> q+
14:54:32 <Andi> RESOLUTION: Ask WCAG to clarify the INTENT as follows: Note that this success criterion does not REQUIRE heading and labels—just that if they are provided, they be descriptive.   Also if headings are provided they must be programmatically determinable per 1.3.1.
14:54:46 <Andi> action: Gregg to ask WCAG to clarify the INTENT as follows: Note that this success criterion does not REQUIRE heading and labels—just that if they are provided, they be descriptive.   Also if headings are provided they must be programmatically determinable per 1.3.1.
14:54:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-10 - Ask WCAG to clarify the INTENT as follows: Note that this success criterion does not REQUIRE heading and labels—just that if they are provided, they be descriptive.   Also if headings are provided they must be programmatically determinable per 1.3.1. [on Gregg Vanderheiden - due 2012-06-22].
14:55:17 <Andi> PK: concern about determining whether something is a label or a heading in software
14:55:54 <Andi> MP: also an issue that arose in M376 discussions
14:56:18 <Pierce> +q
14:56:25 <korn> q-
14:56:28 <Andi> action: Peter to suggest a note for 2.4.6 with examples of headings and labels for software
14:56:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-11 - Suggest a note for 2.4.6 with examples of headings and labels for software [on Peter Korn - due 2012-06-22].
14:57:36 <Andi> keep 2.4.6 open until we have the result from WCAG and the note from Peter
14:57:53 <Andi> GV: does the concern apply to web applications too?
14:58:03 <Andi> PK:  possibly, good point
14:58:25 <Andi> 3.2.1 On Focus
14:59:05 <Andi> MP: LoĂŻc proposes replacing "user interface component" with "user interface element"
14:59:16 <Andi> ack pierce
14:59:32 <Pierce> +q
14:59:50 <Andi> ack pierce
15:00:32 <korn> q+
15:06:45 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:06:48 <Andi> ack korn
15:06:51 <Andi> ack gregg
15:07:08 <Andi> PK: proposes note to clarify distinction between focus and selection
15:07:20 <Andi> PC: concern that "selection" will be confused with "selection of text"
15:07:43 <korn> q+
15:09:03 <Andi> AS: when you select a UI element, focus always goes there
15:09:23 <korn> q-
15:09:46 <Andi> PK: purpose of note is to clarify something for developers who may not be familiar with terms. Not critical for WCAG2ICT. Withdraw note.
15:09:51 <korn> q+
15:09:59 <mapluke> This applies directly as written, and as described in INTENT from Understanding WCAG 2.0 (above), with the words “user interface element” substituted for "component".
15:10:21 <Andi> q+
15:10:25 <Andi> ack korn
15:10:27 <korn> q-
15:10:56 <Andi> ack Andi
15:11:26 <Andi> AS: WCAG WG specifically did not use "element" because we didn't want to make it sound like we were only talking about HTML
15:12:48 <Pierce> +q
15:12:54 <Pierce> +q
15:12:59 <Andi> MP: M376 team thought that in SW world, more people are familiar with "element" than "component"
15:13:03 <Andi> ack Kiran
15:14:28 <Andi> KK: if we can say "user interface component", would be okay 
15:14:39 <Andi> PC: +1 to Kiran's suggestion
15:14:59 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:15:05 <Andi> PC: could put a note to say "this could also mean "user interface element"
15:15:06 <korn> q+
15:15:12 <Andi> ack pierce
15:15:51 <Andi> GV: use "user interface component" seems to be a good suggestion - people used to "user interface element" would not think these are different
15:16:27 <Andi> GV: could also say "another common term is "user Interface element"
15:16:32 <Andi> ack gregg
15:18:36 <greggvanderheiden> What is meant by 'component' here is also sometimes called "user interface element" or 'user interface component"
15:20:45 <greggvanderheiden> Add note to 3.2.1 and after exiting note on 3.2.2  that reads  NOTE: What is meant by 'component' here is also sometimes called "user interface element" or 'user interface component".
15:20:50 <Andi> action: Gregg to Ask WCAG to clarify intent of 3.2.1 and 3.2.2 as follows: Add this note to 3.2.1 and to existing note on 3.2.2 "Note: What is meant by 'component' here is also sometimes called 'user interface element' or 'user interface component'."
15:20:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-12 - Ask WCAG to clarify intent of 3.2.1 and 3.2.2 as follows: Add this note to 3.2.1 and to existing note on 3.2.2 "Note: What is meant by 'component' here is also sometimes called 'user interface element' or 'user interface component'." [on Gregg Vanderheiden - due 2012-06-22].
15:23:15 <Andi> RESOLUTION: Accept 3.2.1 Proposal #1
15:23:22 <Andi> 3.2.2 On Input
15:23:34 <korn> q+
15:24:34 <Andi> PK: David had a suggestion for a modification to the note
15:24:49 <Andi> PC: Same comment on 3.2.1
15:25:44 <Andi> GV: dynamic content could be an animate GIF - no programming or scripting
15:25:45 <Pierce> +q
15:25:57 <Andi> MP: second proposal by David is much clearer
15:26:03 <Andi> ack korn
15:26:17 <Pierce> -q
15:27:35 <Andi> https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/3-understandable/32-make-web-pages-appear-and-operate-in-predictable-ways/321-on-focus
15:27:36 <korn> Here: https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/3-understandable/32-make-web-pages-appear-and-operate-in-predictable-ways/322-on-input
15:28:25 <Andi> RESOLUTION: Accept 3.2.2 Proposal #2
15:29:04 <korn> q+
15:29:24 <korn> q-
15:30:15 <Andi> RESOLUTION: Accept 3.2.1 Proposal #2 instead of Proposal #1 (change to above resolution)
15:30:37 <alex> q+
15:30:57 <Andi> ack alex
15:31:14 <Pierce> +q
15:31:42 <Zakim> -Gregg_Vanderheiden
15:32:48 <Pierce> -q
15:32:49 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
15:32:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/15-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
15:33:02 <Zakim> -Janina
15:33:04 <Zakim> -Mary_Jo_Mueller
15:33:05 <janina> janina has left #wcag2ict
15:33:06 <Zakim> -Alex_Li
15:33:07 <Zakim> -Andi_Snow_Weaver
15:33:07 <Zakim> -Pierce_Crowell
15:33:08 <Zakim> -korn
15:33:08 <Zakim> -Bruce_Bailey
15:33:10 <Zakim> -Kiran_Kaja
15:33:10 <Zakim> -Shadi
15:33:35 <Zakim> -Mike_Pluke
15:33:37 <Zakim> WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has ended
15:33:37 <Zakim> Attendees were +0162859aaaa, Andi_Snow_Weaver, +1.512.255.aabb, Shadi, Bruce_Bailey, +1.608.514.aacc, Cooper, korn, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Kiran_Kaja, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Alex_Li,
15:33:37 <Zakim> ... Mike_Pluke, +1.410.965.aadd, Pierce_Crowell, Janina
15:54:06 <Andi> s/1.3.3 Information and relationships/1.3.1 Information and relationships/
15:54:11 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
15:54:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/15-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
15:54:41 <Andi> s/developemtn toolkits/development toolkits/
15:54:45 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
15:54:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/15-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
15:56:50 <Andi> s/animate GIF/animated GIF/
15:56:53 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
15:56:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/15-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
15:57:31 <Andi> s|https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/3-understandable/32-make-web-pages-appear-and-operate-in-predictable-ways/321-on-focus||
15:57:33 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
15:57:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/15-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
15:58:23 <Andi> regrets: David_MacDonald, LoĂŻc_MartĂ­nez_Normand
15:58:25 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
15:58:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/15-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
15:59:02 <Andi> chair: Mike_Pluke
15:59:04 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
15:59:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/15-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
16:36:56 <korn> korn has left #wcag2ict
18:20:32 <Andi> Andi has joined #wcag2ict
18:45:16 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
18:52:21 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has left #wcag2ict