IRC log of prov on 2012-06-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:48:06 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #prov
14:48:06 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:48:08 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:48:08 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #prov
14:48:10 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
14:48:10 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:48:11 [trackbot]
Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:48:11 [trackbot]
Date: 14 June 2012
14:48:24 [pgroth]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:48:38 [pgroth]
Zakim, this will be PROV
14:48:38 [Zakim]
ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
14:48:51 [pgroth]
@Luc that should do it
14:50:37 [Luc]
14:50:46 [Luc]
did you receive my email to the mailing list, with copy of agenda
14:51:22 [TomDN]
TomDN has joined #prov
14:51:29 [pgroth]
yes just got it
14:51:36 [khalidbelhajjame]
khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov
14:51:44 [Zakim]
SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
14:51:52 [Zakim]
+ +329331aaaa
14:52:04 [TomDN]
Zakim, +329 is me
14:52:04 [Zakim]
+TomDN; got it
14:52:19 [TomDN]
Zakim, mute me
14:52:19 [Zakim]
sorry, TomDN, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
14:52:44 [Zakim]
14:52:52 [Zakim]
14:52:55 [pgroth]
Zakim, ??P3 is me
14:52:56 [Zakim]
+pgroth; got it
14:54:08 [Luc]
chair: luc moreau
14:54:13 [Luc]
scribe: paolo missier
14:54:18 [Luc]
topic: admin
14:54:56 [Paolo]
Paolo has joined #prov
14:55:15 [MacTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:55:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MacTed
14:55:18 [MacTed]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:55:21 [Zakim]
+ +1.661.382.aabb
14:55:38 [MacTed]
(nothing's made public, if the draft isn't produced first)
14:55:42 [tlebo]
tlebo has joined #prov
14:56:35 [Zakim]
+ +1.518.276.aacc
14:56:42 [tlebo]
zakim, I am aacc
14:56:42 [Zakim]
+tlebo; got it
14:57:15 [Zakim]
+ +44.238.059.aadd
14:57:42 [CraigTrim]
CraigTrim has joined #prov
14:57:43 [Luc]
zakim, aadd is me
14:57:43 [Zakim]
+Luc; got it
14:57:53 [TomDN]
Zakim, mute me
14:57:53 [Zakim]
TomDN should now be muted
14:58:04 [CraigTrim]
Zakim, mute me
14:58:04 [Zakim]
sorry, CraigTrim, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:58:08 [satya]
satya has joined #prov
14:58:23 [smiles]
smiles has joined #prov
14:58:31 [Zakim]
14:59:30 [Curt]
Curt has joined #prov
14:59:33 [Luc]
@craigTrim, do you want to introduce yourselve at the end of the admin topic?
15:00:06 [Zakim]
15:00:08 [Jun]
Jun has joined #prov
15:00:12 [pgroth]
pgroth has left #prov
15:00:23 [pgroth]
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15:00:31 [Zakim]
15:00:33 [Zakim]
15:00:45 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:00:47 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
15:00:48 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
15:00:48 [CraigTrim]
15:00:49 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
15:01:00 [Zakim]
15:01:02 [MacTed]
Zakim, who's here?
15:01:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see pgroth, ??P2, +1.661.382.aabb, tlebo, Luc, ??P9, Curt_Tilmes, MacTed (muted), ??P1
15:01:09 [Zakim]
On IRC I see pgroth, Jun, Curt, smiles, satya, CraigTrim, tlebo, Paolo, khalidbelhajjame, TomDN, Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, sandro, trackbot, stain
15:01:16 [dgarijo]
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15:01:24 [Zakim]
15:01:40 [satya]
Zakim, ??P32 is me
15:01:40 [Zakim]
+satya; got it
15:01:41 [Luc]
proposed: to accept Minutes of the June 7, 2012 Telecon
15:01:41 [Zakim]
15:01:47 [stephenc]
stephenc has joined #prov
15:01:51 [Curt]
15:01:56 [satya]
15:01:56 [dgarijo]
Zakim, ??P18 is me
15:01:58 [tlebo]
15:01:59 [smiles]
15:02:00 [TomDN]
15:02:00 [Zakim]
+dgarijo; got it
15:02:01 [CraigTrim]
15:02:10 [dgarijo]
+0 (I attended partially)
15:02:12 [Zakim]
15:02:14 [jun_]
jun_ has joined #prov
15:02:25 [Paolo]
+1 but not sure I have seen the minutes
15:02:34 [Luc]
resolved: Minutes of the June 7, 2012 Telecon
15:03:01 [khalidbelhajjame]
khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov
15:03:06 [Paolo]
action on Luc: issue of collection membership completeness
15:03:06 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - on
15:03:21 [Paolo]
Paolo and Luc consider this action complete
15:03:26 [Zakim]
15:03:41 [Paolo]
new member CraigTrim
15:04:08 [Paolo]
Craig IBM very interested in provenance -- have been disseminating current results on WG within IBM
15:04:27 [Paolo]
Craig still catching up, main role is to disseminate results within IBM
15:04:37 [Paolo]
CRaig will be at the F2F
15:04:39 [Luc]
topic: F2F3
15:04:51 [pgroth]
15:05:33 [Paolo]
pgroth F2F will include an update on status -- then focus on last call
15:06:03 [Paolo]
pgroth what remains to be done going into last call, what is the outreach strategy
15:06:42 [Paolo]
pgroth discussion on notes as well as additional "outreach" notes (work with for example)
15:06:56 [Luc]
15:06:57 [Paolo]
pgroth also discussion on implementations
15:07:14 [Paolo]
(can't open the program page at w3c...0
15:07:36 [pgroth]
if you have other topics please let us know
15:07:37 [Luc]
15:07:40 [dgarijo]
@Paolo: I think the whole wiki is down
15:07:52 [pgroth]
wiki is very shaky
15:07:53 [Luc]
topic: Updates
15:08:02 [Paolo]
@daniel back on now
15:08:20 [dgarijo]
I can scribe
15:08:21 [tlebo]
I'll scribe
15:08:26 [tlebo]
go ahead, Dani
15:08:28 [dgarijo]
15:08:40 [dgarijo]
Paolo: One action on Luc about completeness (done)
15:08:51 [dgarijo]
... discussion in the list, Paolo made edits in DM
15:09:19 [dgarijo]
... there can be some inconsistencies sometimes
15:09:47 [dgarijo]
... another issue, about membership, has already been addressed
15:09:55 [dgarijo]
... I joined prov-o call on monday
15:10:07 [dgarijo]
... and the changes were well received
15:10:17 [Luc]
15:10:22 [dgarijo]
Luc: any questions?
15:10:47 [Paolo]
Luc contextualization still an issue: Tim?
15:11:21 [Paolo]
tlebo converged on contextualization being a case of specialization
15:11:33 [Paolo]
tlebo DM has converged to that def
15:11:47 [Paolo]
tlebo next step prov-o will capture that in the ontology
15:12:17 [Paolo]
tlebo GK still has concerns about violating /breaking RDF semantics -- GK invited to discuss
15:12:52 [Luc]
15:13:01 [Paolo]
tlebo is contextualization at risk? concerns that it's going too far, its capabilities don't warrant the extra level of explanation for that construct
15:13:53 [Paolo]
Luc: setting an action on Graham to elaborate on his concern and provide an example
15:14:31 [Paolo]
Luc: useful to see how the construct is expressed in RDF. when is this happening?
15:14:37 [pgroth]
15:14:37 [Paolo]
tlebo: early next week
15:15:33 [pgroth]
15:15:35 [Paolo]
Luc: should contextualization be in the doc, or marked as "at risk"? propose to address this after the review, and make this a question to reviewers
15:15:39 [dgarijo]
yes, I think it is reasonable
15:15:43 [Paolo]
tlebo: agree
15:15:58 [khalidbelhajjame]
I agree
15:16:18 [Paolo]
pgroth: need not be a question to reviewers -- it will be addressed if it does come up during review
15:16:37 [pgroth]
ack pgroth
15:17:02 [pgroth]
15:17:26 [Paolo]
Luc: Graham has raised an issue on contextualization so he will have an opportunity to respond to that
15:17:30 [pgroth]
ack pgroth
15:17:31 [Luc]
ack pg
15:17:32 [khalidbelhajjame]
I guess here we are talking about internal reviewing. A more important opinion w.r.t. contextualization is that of external reviewers
15:17:52 [Paolo]
tlebo: state of prov-o
15:18:00 [pgroth]
@khalidbelhajjame it's important that the group is good with it
15:18:21 [Paolo]
tlebo: focus on resolving dependencies on DM
15:19:03 [Paolo]
tlebo: ... on getting DM settled. DM is becoming the blocker on prov-o. once dm is through, it will be easier to release prov-o
15:19:14 [Luc]
15:19:31 [Paolo]
smiles: primer is ready to review
15:19:42 [dgarijo]
@Tim: Thanks for putting all toghether in the doc, Tim.
15:20:12 [Luc]
15:20:19 [Paolo]
Luc: no progress on Constraints, will meet at IPAW to agree on how to proceed (Luc, James, Paolo)
15:20:23 [pgroth]
15:20:37 [Luc]
topic: Schedule for internal release and review
15:20:38 [Luc]
ack pg
15:21:16 [Paolo]
TOPIC: organizing documents reviews
15:21:56 [dgarijo]
15:21:58 [Paolo]
Luc: DM; released today, all outstanding issues addressed AFA editors are concerned
15:22:00 [TomDN]
yes :)
15:22:04 [dgarijo]
I'll review it for next week.
15:22:10 [khalidbelhajjame]
yes, I will review it
15:22:11 [Paolo]
Luc: can reviewers confirm availability
15:22:36 [khalidbelhajjame]
I will review the dm in the weekend
15:22:42 [dgarijo]
next wednesday?
15:22:46 [TomDN]
I'm planning to review it this weekend
15:22:51 [TomDN]
(in the air)
15:23:24 [Paolo]
Luc: propose DM review deadline by Wed June 20th
15:23:24 [TomDN]
sounds good to me
15:23:25 [pgroth]
15:23:55 [pgroth]
ack pgroth
15:24:19 [Paolo]
pgroth: additional informal reviews welcome by F2F or sooner
15:24:56 [Paolo]
Luc: prov-n also released today. reviewers please confirm?
15:24:56 [TomDN]
15:25:03 [TomDN]
zakim, unmute me
15:25:03 [Zakim]
TomDN was not muted, TomDN
15:25:42 [Paolo]
TomDN: stephen on hols but still planning to do the review
15:25:44 [Luc]
ack pg
15:25:47 [Luc]
ack tom
15:25:55 [TomDN]
15:26:25 [Paolo]
Luc: propose PROV-N review deadline by Thu June 21st
15:26:55 [Paolo]
Luc: PROV-O?
15:27:01 [dgarijo]
@Luc: Khalid is not on the phone. He has told me to say that he will possibly review PROV-N as well
15:27:16 [TomDN]
same here for Sam. (not available right now, but will still review the document, probable after f2f3)
15:27:37 [Paolo]
tlebo: propose PROV-O ready for review July 13th
15:28:16 [Paolo]
Luc: what are the outstanding issues?
15:28:57 [pgroth]
15:29:01 [Paolo]
tlebo: contextualization, collections, working through examples, additional narrative for a variety of terms, existing narrative needs editing, harmonizing
15:29:13 [Luc]
ack pgro
15:30:00 [Paolo]
pgroth: key issue for last call is tech features are frozen. List of issues here are only contextualization and collections. the latter have not changed very much
15:30:16 [Paolo]
pgroth: so what are the remaining /tech/ issues?
15:30:23 [Paolo]
tlebo: contextualization and final review of collections
15:30:37 [Paolo]
15:30:50 [pgroth]
15:31:00 [pgroth]
he's on vacation
15:31:59 [Luc]
ack paolo
15:32:51 [Paolo]
pgroth: main issue with Last Call is tech issues, editing can happen afterwards
15:32:55 [Luc]
15:33:01 [Luc]
ack pgr
15:33:14 [Paolo]
pgroth: can review ontology to help separate out tech vs editorial
15:34:24 [Paolo]
tlebo: technically, close to being done -- provo html needs more work. so if all that matters is technical completeness, it can be done faster
15:35:10 [pgroth]
15:35:21 [Paolo]
Luc: sandro and Ivan confirm that it is about technical content, i.e. frozen ontology is enough. then we get a chance to clarify and explain things better
15:36:08 [Paolo]
tlebo: ontology can be finalized by mid next week, and whatever falls out of it into html (examples of terms etc.)
15:36:34 [Paolo]
tlebo: to be released on June 14th
15:36:43 [Luc]
ack pg
15:37:16 [Paolo]
pgroth: process calls for >= 3 wks of last call feedback.
15:38:02 [Paolo]
Luc: Sam, pgroth, Luc to review prov-o
15:38:17 [Paolo]
pgroth: confirms
15:38:30 [CraigTrim]
15:38:54 [Paolo]
Craig added to list of reviewers
15:39:21 [Paolo]
Luc: constraints doc: not sure when it will be ready. Will report back to group at F2F with an estimate
15:39:22 [Luc]
15:39:24 [pgroth]
15:40:08 [Paolo]
pgroth: the constraints doc "falls out" of the DM -- is it on rec track?
15:40:16 [Paolo]
Luc: it is on Rec track
15:40:43 [Paolo]
Luc: we can pull it out and possibly make it a note
15:41:12 [Paolo]
pgroth: concerned about timing -- lagging considerably behind and it's a complicated doc
15:41:50 [Paolo]
Luc: yes, but it has been simplified. Also, no need to release all docs at the same time
15:42:04 [Luc]
15:42:06 [Luc]
ack pg
15:42:29 [Paolo]
Luc: primer doc
15:42:45 [Paolo]
smiles: ready for review
15:42:53 [Paolo]
Luc: reviewers?
15:43:06 [TomDN]
I'll review it
15:43:07 [pgroth]
15:43:22 [pgroth]
+q to ask craig
15:43:32 [stephenc]
OK, I volunteer
15:43:39 [CraigTrim]
I've already been reviewing it, so go ahead and me in too
15:43:57 [Luc]
ack pg
15:43:57 [Zakim]
pgroth, you wanted to ask craig
15:44:16 [Paolo]
smiles: familiarity with prov-n desirable... (Paolo)
15:44:16 [CraigTrim]
agreed - it's been a good doc so far back to IBM
15:44:33 [Luc]
prov-primer reviewers: paolo, paul, stephenc, craig, luc
15:45:00 [Luc]
15:45:22 [Paolo]
Luc: update to prov-aq to be addressed later
15:45:51 [Paolo]
Luc: questions for reviewers: can the doc be released as a /regular/ WD? if not, what are the blocking issues
15:46:21 [Paolo]
Luc: can the doc be pub as last call WD? see link to LC def by W3C
15:47:01 [Paolo]
Luc: in particular, reviewers who have raised issues, can they be closed?
15:47:48 [Paolo]
Luc: proposal wasREvisionOf -> wasRevisedFrom: no consensus, so can reviewers look at that
15:48:37 [Paolo]
Luc: also in DM: "primitive data types" that are in RDF. However RDF is changing, so which version are we referring to? RDF 1.1 WD data types are different
15:49:15 [Luc]
15:49:18 [Paolo]
Luc: worked with Ivan to make us robust wrt changes in RDF 1.1 -- should we list all data types as 1.1? reviewers should look into this
15:49:35 [Paolo]
15:49:58 [tlebo]
paolo: what if someone says "no"?
15:50:10 [pgroth]
15:50:28 [Luc]
ack paol
15:50:48 [tlebo]
pgroth: we look at the issues and get to a resolution.
15:51:08 [tlebo]
... if no resolution, then we can vote.
15:51:12 [Paolo]
pgroth: many options available -- if it is clear there is no resolution, we can vote.
15:51:44 [Luc]
15:51:47 [Luc]
ack pg
15:52:12 [pgroth]
15:52:37 [Paolo]
pgroth: is there a LC for notes (primer)?
15:52:52 [Paolo]
Luc: LC question does not apply to primer
15:53:43 [Paolo]
Luc: decision can be deferred, to allow for further changes to the primer
15:53:44 [Luc]
15:53:51 [Luc]
ack pg
15:54:10 [Paolo]
pgroth: state of PAQ: next WD ready by next Tue
15:54:55 [Paolo]
pgroth: after F2F we'll look at PAQ in detail again
15:55:13 [Luc]
15:55:14 [TomDN]
15:56:00 [TomDN]
ack tomdn
15:56:11 [Paolo]
Luc: call arrangements for next week?
15:56:15 [Zakim]
15:56:23 [Paolo]
pgroth: call should be cancelled next week
15:56:51 [Luc]
15:56:55 [Paolo]
Luc: call cancelled
15:57:07 [Zakim]
15:57:09 [Zakim]
- +1.661.382.aabb
15:57:10 [Zakim]
15:57:10 [Zakim]
15:57:10 [dgarijo]
15:57:16 [Zakim]
15:57:18 [TomDN]
(I'll also be driving from San Francisco to SB on monday, by the way)
15:57:20 [Zakim]
15:57:23 [Zakim]
15:57:24 [Zakim]
15:57:26 [pgroth]
trackbot, end telecon
15:57:26 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
15:57:34 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:57:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
15:57:34 [Zakim]
15:57:35 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
15:57:35 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
15:57:36 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +329331aaaa, TomDN, pgroth, +1.661.382.aabb, +1.518.276.aacc, tlebo, +44.238.059.aadd, Luc, Curt_Tilmes, MacTed, satya, dgarijo