IRC log of rdf-wg on 2012-06-13
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:04:11 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
- 14:04:11 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/13-rdf-wg-irc
- 14:04:13 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs world
- 14:04:13 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
- 14:04:15 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be 73394
- 14:04:16 [trackbot]
- Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
- 14:04:16 [trackbot]
- Date: 13 June 2012
- 14:04:16 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 56 minutes
- 14:13:28 [Guus]
- Guus has joined #rdf-wg
- 14:54:11 [AZ]
- AZ has joined #rdf-wg
- 14:55:07 [pfps]
- pfps has joined #rdf-wg
- 14:56:23 [ScottB]
- ScottB has joined #rdf-wg
- 15:00:11 [Zakim]
- SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
- 15:00:18 [Zakim]
- +??P4
- 15:00:22 [AndyS]
- zakim, ??P4 is me
- 15:00:22 [Zakim]
- +AndyS; got it
- 15:00:43 [Zakim]
- +bernadette
- 15:00:44 [Zakim]
- + +1.781.273.aaaa
- 15:00:52 [davidwood]
- Zakim, bernadette is me
- 15:00:52 [Zakim]
- +davidwood; got it
- 15:00:55 [SteveH_]
- SteveH_ has joined #rdf-wg
- 15:00:58 [MacTed]
- Zakim, aaaa is OpenLink_Software
- 15:00:58 [Zakim]
- +OpenLink_Software; got it
- 15:01:04 [MacTed]
- Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
- 15:01:04 [Zakim]
- +MacTed; got it
- 15:01:05 [MacTed]
- Zakim, mute me
- 15:01:05 [Zakim]
- MacTed should now be muted
- 15:01:19 [Zakim]
- +??P10
- 15:01:21 [davidwood]
- Zakim, who is here?
- 15:01:21 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see AndyS, davidwood, MacTed (muted), ??P10
- 15:01:22 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see SteveH_, ScottB, pfps, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, MacTed, SteveH, gavinc, ivan, AndyS, yvesr, manu1, manu, sandro, davidwood, trackbot, NickH, ericP
- 15:01:22 [Zakim]
- + +1.707.861.aabb
- 15:01:23 [Zakim]
- +[IBM]
- 15:01:29 [gavinc]
- Zakim, aabb is me
- 15:01:30 [Zakim]
- +gavinc; got it
- 15:01:32 [Zakim]
- +??P9
- 15:01:36 [pfps]
- zakim, IBM is temporarily me
- 15:01:36 [Zakim]
- +pfps; got it
- 15:01:39 [gkellogg]
- zakim, ??P9 is me
- 15:01:41 [Zakim]
- +gkellogg; got it
- 15:01:48 [Zakim]
- +Tony
- 15:02:03 [Zakim]
- +??P17
- 15:02:07 [ScottB]
- Zakim, Tony is temporarily me
- 15:02:10 [SteveH_]
- Zakim, ??P17 is me
- 15:02:13 [Zakim]
- +ScottB; got it
- 15:02:16 [Zakim]
- +SteveH_; got it
- 15:02:23 [MacTed]
- MacTed has changed the topic to: RDF-WG -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ -- latest agenda = http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.06.13 (MacTed)
- 15:02:36 [Zakim]
- +Arnaud
- 15:02:47 [ivan]
- zakim, dial ivan-voip
- 15:02:47 [Zakim]
- ok, ivan; the call is being made
- 15:02:48 [Zakim]
- +Ivan
- 15:03:15 [AZ]
- Zakim, who is here?
- 15:03:19 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see AndyS, davidwood, MacTed (muted), ??P10, gavinc, pfps, gkellogg, ScottB, SteveH_, Arnaud, Ivan
- 15:03:28 [AZ]
- zakim, ??P10 is me
- 15:03:31 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see SteveH_, ScottB, pfps, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, gkellogg, MacTed, SteveH, gavinc, ivan, AndyS, yvesr, manu1, manu, sandro, davidwood, trackbot, NickH, ericP
- 15:03:38 [ivan]
- scribenick: AZ
- 15:03:40 [Zakim]
- +AZ; got it
- 15:03:45 [manu1]
- zakim, code?
- 15:03:48 [Zakim]
- + +1.603.897.aacc
- 15:03:55 [davidwood]
- chair: David Wood
- 15:03:58 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), manu1
- 15:04:04 [davidwood]
- Topic: Admin
- 15:04:04 [Souri]
- Souri has joined #RDF-WG
- 15:04:22 [AZ]
- Topic: Admin
- 15:04:27 [Zakim]
- +??P24
- 15:04:54 [davidwood]
- PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 23 May telecon:
- 15:04:54 [davidwood]
- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-05-30
- 15:04:59 [manu1]
- q+ to request that JSON-LD be moved to the front of the agenda.
- 15:05:01 [davidwood]
- PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 30 May telecon:
- 15:05:02 [davidwood]
- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-05-30
- 15:05:20 [manu1]
- I have reviewed them - they look good. :)
- 15:05:24 [manu1]
- I also scribed.
- 15:05:24 [pfps]
- the minutes look fine
- 15:05:35 [davidwood]
- Review of action items
- 15:05:35 [davidwood]
- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
- 15:05:35 [davidwood]
- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
- 15:05:36 [AZ]
- RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 30 May telecon:
- 15:06:03 [Guus]
- Guus has joined #rdf-wg
- 15:07:28 [davidwood]
- Topic: Summer Schedule
- 15:07:42 [pchampin]
- pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
- 15:07:53 [pfps]
- Which weeks?
- 15:08:01 [AZ]
- davidwood: starting july until august we do 1 meeting every 2 weeks
- 15:08:13 [pfps]
- Good - July 4 week off.
- 15:08:20 [MacTed]
- (winter schedule for Southern Hemisphere... if we had any)
- 15:09:11 [Zakim]
- +??P36
- 15:09:17 [pchampin]
- zakim, ??p36 is me
- 15:09:17 [Zakim]
- +pchampin; got it
- 15:10:04 [AZ]
- davidwood: 11th july, 25th july, 8 aug, 22nd aug.
- 15:10:11 [manu1]
- I think we should try to publish the JSON-LD specs as FPWDs in July - we should do a straw poll on 11 July 2012 in this WG to make it happen (barring any serious changes)
- 15:10:20 [davidwood]
- Meetings to be held on 11 July, 25 July, 8 August, 22 August. Weekly meetings to resume as of 5 September.
- 15:10:22 [Zakim]
- + +1.617.324.aadd
- 15:10:55 [davidwood]
- Topic: Turtle Last Call
- 15:11:39 [AZ]
- gavinc: we would need Richard's comments
- 15:12:00 [AZ]
- davidwood: are the comments minor enough to go last call
- 15:12:55 [AndyS]
- [166s] PN_LOCAL_ESC is unclear. What is the precedence of adjacent and | ?
- 15:13:00 [AZ]
- ericP: we should remind people that it is Last Call
- 15:13:26 [pfps]
- If the editor isn't saying "trivial" then I don't think that we should go forward.
- 15:13:44 [AZ]
- gavinc: currently the document has 2 normative big sections
- 15:14:00 [gavinc]
- pfps... yeah, not going to last call
- 15:14:28 [AZ]
- ericP: nwe wrote the first 2 sections to be approachable for ???
- 15:14:49 [ivan]
- s/???/mortals/
- 15:15:16 [AZ]
- ericP: we may want to make 1st section normative
- 15:16:25 [AZ]
- gavinc: we need to take one more look at the doc
- 15:16:49 [AZ]
- s/gavinc/ericP/
- 15:17:22 [Zakim]
- +[VrijeUni]
- 15:17:30 [AZ]
- ericP: if we can write the doc to satisfy the WG
- 15:17:44 [Guus]
- zakim, +[VrijeUni] is me
- 15:17:44 [Zakim]
- sorry, Guus, I do not recognize a party named '+[VrijeUni]'
- 15:18:05 [Guus]
- zakim, VrijeUni is me
- 15:18:05 [Zakim]
- +Guus; got it
- 15:18:24 [AZ]
- ericP: we could have normative sections with subsections that are informative
- 15:18:51 [AZ]
- ericP: or start with informtive, tutorial like, then normative hard-to-read one
- 15:19:16 [gavinc]
- Example of the problematic sections http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#relative-iris
- 15:20:00 [AZ]
- AndyS: there should not be normative sub-sections inside non-normative ones
- 15:20:39 [AZ]
- ericP: Richard observed there was 2 definitions of everything,
- 15:20:53 [AZ]
- ...: we can make one informative def and one normative
- 15:21:09 [AZ]
- gavinc: relative IRI section is duplicated
- 15:21:26 [AZ]
- ... and both are normative
- 15:21:43 [MacTed]
- Zakim, unmute me
- 15:21:43 [Zakim]
- MacTed should no longer be muted
- 15:21:44 [AZ]
- ... but if we get rid of one of them it's unreadable
- 15:21:48 [MacTed]
- q+
- 15:21:49 [davidwood]
- q?
- 15:22:06 [AZ]
- ericP: I think one is informative
- 15:22:11 [AZ]
- gavinc: I don't think so
- 15:22:34 [davidwood]
- q+ to ask about moving changes in the Status section to the Changes section
- 15:23:01 [manu1]
- +1 to what MacTed said.
- 15:23:01 [AZ]
- ericP: it's not exact duplication, rather reformulation
- 15:23:38 [davidwood]
- ack manu
- 15:23:38 [Zakim]
- manu, you wanted to request that JSON-LD be moved to the front of the agenda.
- 15:24:06 [AlexHall]
- AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
- 15:24:13 [AZ]
- manu1: probably if you have to repeat things it means there may be a problem in the organization of the doc
- 15:24:53 [AZ]
- ... it may not be explained well enough, or we are getting too detailed
- 15:25:06 [Zakim]
- + +1.443.212.aaee
- 15:25:22 [AZ]
- ... there should be a simple introduction to the concepts
- 15:25:39 [AZ]
- ... would that be difficult to reshape it this way
- 15:26:00 [AZ]
- gavinc: but there are fairly large disagreements
- 15:26:05 [MacTed]
- q-
- 15:26:08 [Zakim]
- - +1.617.324.aadd
- 15:26:21 [davidwood]
- ack davidwood
- 15:26:21 [Zakim]
- davidwood, you wanted to ask about moving changes in the Status section to the Changes section
- 15:26:30 [Zakim]
- + +1.617.324.aaff
- 15:27:07 [AZ]
- davidwood: there are changes llisted in the status section
- 15:27:07 [mischat]
- mischat has joined #rdf-wg
- 15:27:37 [AZ]
- gavinc: I'll move that for the last call version
- 15:28:01 [AZ]
- davidwood: it's important to have this doc out, but I understand that work is needed still
- 15:28:13 [AZ]
- davidwood: we have a small agenda today, we can discuss it more
- 15:28:40 [AZ]
- gavinc: the issues are not that bad
- 15:28:56 [AZ]
- ... before Sec 5 are mostly informative
- 15:29:38 [Zakim]
- -Arnaud
- 15:29:46 [manu1]
- +1 to what EricP just said!
- 15:30:00 [Zakim]
- +Arnaud
- 15:30:02 [ericP]
- \ O /"
- 15:30:20 [AZ]
- ericP: we would probably not benefit a lot from discussing this now, let's have concrete decisions
- 15:31:14 [AZ]
- davidwood: please provide comments again on the document
- 15:31:28 [AZ]
- Topic: JSON LD
- 15:32:04 [AZ]
- davidwood: we had 3 people reviewing JSON LD
- 15:33:13 [davidwood]
- q?
- 15:33:16 [manu1]
- http://json-ld.org/spec/latest/json-ld-syntax/
- 15:33:16 [AZ]
- (couldn't hear well what AndyS asked)
- 15:33:25 [manu1]
- http://json-ld.org/spec/latest/json-ld-api/
- 15:33:38 [AZ]
- manu1: this is the link to the doc you should e reviewing
- 15:34:10 [AZ]
- ... we will not change that doc while it's being reviewed
- 15:34:17 [gavinc]
- wasn't there a decision to move the document into dvcs.w3.org?
- 15:34:21 [manu1]
- We responding to RDF WG issues here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Jun/0028.html
- 15:34:43 [AZ]
- ... we responded to the comments there
- 15:35:00 [AZ]
- ... we tried to aligned as much as possible to RDF concepts
- 15:35:09 [AZ]
- ... but there are places where we couldn't
- 15:35:51 [AZ]
- ... there was an issue on "predicate" vs "property"
- 15:36:20 [AZ]
- ... apart from those remaining details, everything re. terminology was addressed
- 15:36:43 [AZ]
- AndyS: the doc should move to w3.org
- 15:36:53 [AZ]
- davidwood: there are some issues with the community
- 15:37:15 [AZ]
- manu1: the JSON community have to get a clean doc and hand it to W3C
- 15:37:32 [davidwood]
- The RDF WG has agreed to take on the JSON-LD docs, in this form: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-05-30#resolution_2
- 15:38:10 [AZ]
- ... when the doc is ready to be an FPWD it will be given to the RDF WG
- 15:39:03 [AZ]
- davidwood: the resolution was to agree to proceed by having the doc prepared under the auspice of the JSON group before going to W3C rec track
- 15:39:13 [AZ]
- ... but what about patent policy?
- 15:39:20 [AndyS]
- q+ to ask the question he was getting round to :-)
- 15:39:56 [davidwood]
- ack AndyS
- 15:39:56 [Zakim]
- AndyS, you wanted to ask the question he was getting round to :-)
- 15:40:05 [Zakim]
- -Arnaud
- 15:41:13 [AZ]
- manu1: we believ we now have the document that RDF WG asked for
- 15:41:26 [Zakim]
- -ericP
- 15:41:51 [Zakim]
- +ericP
- 15:41:54 [AZ]
- manu1: when RDF WG agrees with the state of the doc, we will have all the IP agreement and all the process
- 15:42:25 [AZ]
- AndyS: I thought that the doc would move to the w3.org namespace
- 15:42:55 [AZ]
- ... and then would review it
- 15:42:56 [AndyS]
- PS I did warn about a potential lack of time - still applies.
- 15:43:26 [AZ]
- pchampin: will do the review by Monday (?)
- 15:43:58 [davidwood]
- q?
- 15:44:14 [AZ]
- manu1: the IP agreement will not be made until it has moved to the RDF WG
- 15:44:40 [AndyS]
- q+ to check who will then handle the comments once it's moved - Greg? Manu? presumably.
- 15:45:17 [AZ]
- ivan: at semtech, there was a presentation of JSON LD and some of the audience seemed to find it too complicated
- 15:45:20 [gkellogg]
- q+
- 15:45:40 [AZ]
- ... some thought parts of the algorithm were not really needed
- 15:46:14 [AZ]
- ... from a JSON developer point of view, it seemed confusing
- 15:46:50 [davidwood]
- ack gkellogg
- 15:46:52 [AZ]
- davidwood: the JSON dev did not want to go into a complete techno stack
- 15:46:53 [manu1]
- AZ - Correction - the JSON-LD Syntax and API IPR agreement will not be made until this group says that they are fine with the changes we've made and want to transfer the work into this group as-is.
- 15:47:59 [AZ]
- gkellogg: people were more confused by the transformation going on between formats
- 15:48:07 [davidwood]
- ack AndyS
- 15:48:07 [Zakim]
- AndyS, you wanted to check who will then handle the comments once it's moved - Greg? Manu? presumably.
- 15:48:41 [AZ]
- (sorry did not understand AndyS's comment)
- 15:49:22 [AZ]
- AndyS: who will be editor? Greg, manu and markus
- 15:49:45 [Zakim]
- -gkellogg
- 15:49:51 [Souri]
- q+ (at the risk of not fully knowing the exact issue) to express personal preference for "predicate" (because property can be used as subject, predicate, and object)
- 15:50:12 [davidwood]
- ack Souri
- 15:50:33 [PatH]
- PatH has joined #rdf-wg
- 15:50:41 [PatH]
- sorry Im late.
- 15:50:53 [gavinc]
- properties exist in Javascript already don't they?
- 15:51:05 [AZ]
- Souri: re. property / predicate, predicate make sense and property may be confusing also
- 15:51:26 [Souri]
- pred-obj vs. prop-val, I see
- 15:51:30 [Zakim]
- +PatH
- 15:51:31 [FabGandon]
- FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
- 15:51:45 [AZ]
- manu1: for English speakers, predicate seems more technical
- 15:52:18 [AZ]
- ... property is well understood and used in everyday conversation by native English speakers
- 15:52:31 [davidwood]
- q?
- 15:52:35 [gavinc]
- +q Javascript has property
- 15:52:43 [davidwood]
- ack gavinc
- 15:52:47 [PatH]
- technically the predicate denotes the proprty, but that realy is getting pedantic..
- 15:53:49 [PatH]
- i am a native and im confused.
- 15:54:06 [gavinc]
- Gavin?
- 15:54:09 [gavinc]
- I'm reviewing?
- 15:54:56 [AZ]
- manu1: if there is not issues with the reviews, we will proceed with the IPR process
- 15:55:12 [AZ]
- ... otherwise, if there are major issues, we will stop and discuss it
- 15:55:14 [PatH]
- zakim, mute me
- 15:55:14 [Zakim]
- PatH should now be muted
- 15:55:57 [AZ]
- ... we will address the issues of the reviews and have the version ready in july
- 15:56:47 [AZ]
- Topic: AOB
- 15:56:48 [davidwood]
- Topic: AOB
- 15:57:02 [Zakim]
- -pfps
- 15:57:03 [Zakim]
- -PatH
- 15:57:04 [Zakim]
- - +1.603.897.aacc
- 15:57:04 [Zakim]
- -??P24
- 15:57:07 [Zakim]
- -Ivan
- 15:57:08 [Zakim]
- -davidwood
- 15:57:08 [Zakim]
- -ScottB
- 15:57:08 [Zakim]
- -AlexHall
- 15:57:10 [davidwood]
- Adjounred
- 15:57:10 [AndyS]
- gavin?
- 15:57:12 [ericP]
- gavinc, meet after (my) lunch?
- 15:57:13 [Zakim]
- -gavinc
- 15:57:14 [Zakim]
- -pchampin
- 15:57:17 [davidwood]
- err, Adjourned
- 15:57:19 [Zakim]
- -Guus
- 15:57:26 [Zakim]
- -AndyS
- 15:57:31 [ericP]
- Zakim, please disconnect ericP
- 15:57:31 [Zakim]
- ericP is being disconnected
- 15:57:32 [Zakim]
- -ericP
- 15:57:36 [Zakim]
- -MacTed
- 15:57:42 [AlexHall]
- AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
- 15:58:22 [AndyS]
- gavinc, ericP --- see email re grammar problems -- risks being a material change later.
- 15:58:54 [gavinc]
- seen
- 15:58:56 [gavinc]
- updating
- 15:59:31 [Zakim]
- -AZ
- 16:00:34 [AndyS]
- If it's HTML generation problems, might be elsewhere - inc NT. Didn't check exhaustively.
- 16:06:28 [Zakim]
- +Arnaud
- 16:06:30 [Zakim]
- -SteveH_
- 16:06:59 [Zakim]
- -Arnaud
- 16:07:00 [Zakim]
- SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
- 16:07:02 [Zakim]
- Attendees were AndyS, +1.781.273.aaaa, davidwood, MacTed, +1.707.861.aabb, gavinc, pfps, gkellogg, ScottB, SteveH_, Arnaud, Ivan, AZ, +1.603.897.aacc, pchampin, +1.617.324.aadd,
- 16:07:05 [Zakim]
- ... Guus, +1.443.212.aaee, AlexHall, +1.617.324.aaff, ericP, PatH
- 16:07:36 [ericP]
- AndyS, re precedence ambiguity?
- 16:08:39 [AndyS]
- EricP
- 16:09:44 [AndyS]
- the 166s rule is wrong. Lost some brackets? A B | C = (A B) | C but A (B | C) was meant.
- 16:10:44 [ericP]
- ahh, that sounds like the sort of error i could have made when i was trying to strip out unnecessary ()s
- 16:10:53 [gavinc]
- No.
- 16:11:03 [gavinc]
- It's not in the .bnf grammar
- 16:11:11 [gavinc]
- it's in the HTML produced from the .bnf grammar
- 16:11:32 [AndyS]
- DECIMAL thing is wrong in BNF?
- 16:11:38 [gavinc]
- Yes.
- 16:12:21 [gavinc]
- DECIMAL was C&P pasted from our list email thread on the subject ;)
- 16:12:28 [gavinc]
- last
- 16:13:35 [ericP]
- gavinc, i had hand-massaged the html so that's why i suspect the culprit whom i mentioned
- 16:13:51 [gavinc]
- ?
- 16:13:55 [gavinc]
- when?
- 16:14:39 [ericP]
- when i had my fingers in the grammar section a few weeks ago
- 16:15:02 [gavinc]
- ah, well since then not using yacker ;)
- 16:15:18 [gavinc]
- https://github.com/norcalrdf/pymantic/blob/master/pymantic/scripts/bnf2html
- 16:17:34 [ericP]
- yacker's toString doesn't pass the parent precendence so it errs on the side of excessive ()s. i think i used it and then stripped out the ()s
- 16:18:01 [ericP]
- that bnf2html uses parent precedence?
- 16:18:07 [gavinc]
- yes
- 16:18:16 [gavinc]
- but didn't seem to work just right ;)
- 16:23:12 [ericP]
- these labor-saving devices are so much work
- 16:23:31 [mischat]
- mischat has joined #rdf-wg
- 16:32:49 [gavinc]
- ...wtf...
- 16:33:24 [gavinc]
- [21] DECIMAL ::= [+-]? [0-9]+ "." [0-9]+| "." [0-9]+ is becoming ('|', [(',', [('?', ('[', '+-')), ('+', ('[', '0-9')), ("'", '.'), ('+', ('[', '0-9'))]), (',', [("'", '.'), ('+', ('[', '0-9'))])])
- 16:33:34 [gavinc]
- where the hell did my parser come up with | from!?
- 16:36:37 [gavinc]
- no
- 16:36:45 [gavinc]
- my router is sending me to the wrong localhost
- 16:36:46 [gavinc]
- okay
- 16:36:50 [gavinc]
- that's much saner
- 16:43:22 [gavinc]
- okay, now with more ()s
- 17:25:52 [mischat]
- mischat has joined #rdf-wg
- 18:07:38 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #rdf-wg
- 19:34:03 [AndyS]
- AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
- 20:22:34 [swh]
- swh has joined #rdf-wg
- 22:45:14 [swh]
- swh has joined #rdf-wg