IRC log of i18n on 2012-06-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:51:46 [RRSAgent]
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14:51:46 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:51:54 [aphillip]
trackbot, prepare teleconference
14:51:57 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:51:59 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 4186
14:51:59 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:52:00 [trackbot]
Meeting: Internationalization Core Working Group Teleconference
14:52:00 [trackbot]
Date: 13 June 2012
14:52:20 [aphillip]
14:52:40 [aphillip]
Chair: Addison Phillips
14:52:44 [aphillip]
Scribe: Addison Phillips
14:52:55 [aphillip]
ScribeNick: aphillip
14:53:00 [aphillip]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:53:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
14:58:13 [koji]
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14:59:47 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has now started
14:59:54 [Zakim]
15:01:57 [matial]
matial has joined #i18n
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15:02:02 [CGI752]
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15:02:05 [koji]
zakim, ??p15 is me
15:02:10 [Zakim]
+koji; got it
15:02:20 [Zakim]
15:02:52 [Zakim]
15:02:58 [Zakim]
15:03:03 [matial]
zakim, ??p20 is me
15:03:08 [Zakim]
+matial; got it
15:03:16 [aphillip]
zakim, ??P3 is andrewc
15:03:20 [Gwyneth]
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15:03:27 [Zakim]
+andrewc; got it
15:06:40 [aphillip]
Topic: Agenda and Minutes
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Topic: Action Items
15:07:01 [Norbert]
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15:07:23 [aphillip]
close ACTION-101
15:07:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-101 Extend number of ports for I18N call to 15 closed
15:07:25 [Zakim]
+ +972.7.474.6aaaa
15:07:46 [aharon]
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15:07:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.885.aabb
15:08:13 [aphillip]
ACTION-109: koji: haven't heard back, will ping again
15:08:13 [trackbot]
ACTION-109 Check about Korean layout task force notes added
15:08:30 [Norbert]
zakim, +1.415 is me
15:08:30 [Zakim]
+Norbert; got it
15:10:14 [aphillip]
close ACTION-130
15:10:14 [trackbot]
ACTION-130 Write to www-international, including decriptions of other lists from about page, announcing changes in our use of list closed
15:10:40 [aphillip]
Topic: Info Share
15:11:09 [aphillip]
andrew: working for state gov't creating guidelines on how they use translations on the web
15:11:20 [aphillip]
... especially focusing on new/emerging languages
15:11:37 [aphillip]
... that have limited support
15:11:42 [aphillip]
... will be probably public
15:12:20 [aphillip]
Topic: IRI and IRI bidi documents
15:13:01 [aphillip]
15:13:20 [aphillip]
15:13:31 [aphillip]
15:13:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:14:38 [aphillip]
15:16:08 [aphillip]
15:17:19 [aphillip]
Norbert: thought comparison document looked fine
15:17:59 [aphillip]
matial: no problem with it
15:19:52 [aphillip]
15:25:20 [aphillip]
matial: may be different for hebrew vs. arabic users
15:25:28 [aphillip]
... or even between individual users
15:25:47 [aphillip]
... still trying to do usability tests
15:26:12 [aphillip]
matial: one thing I don't like in document is that there is too much freedom
15:26:33 [aphillip]
... not as critical what we decide as long as mandatory
15:26:44 [aphillip]
... e.g. in Section 3
15:26:56 [aphillip]
... talks about components
15:27:02 [aphillip]
... domain, segment, etc.
15:27:17 [aphillip]
... each one should laid out independently of other components
15:27:32 [aphillip]
... and then components can be subdivided, such as labels in domain names
15:28:14 [aphillip]
... but if labels allowed to swap (or not) in implementations, it should be consistent
15:28:21 [aphillip]
... be normative rather than optional
15:29:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:29:58 [aphillip]
matial: once we have a consensus, it should be enforced
15:31:11 [aphillip]
Norbert: trying to specify "what is a good bidi iri"
15:31:24 [aphillip]
... but spoofers are not interested in "good bidi IRIs"
15:32:02 [aphillip]
... so standard needs to specify what happens (reject, color address bar)
15:36:38 [aphillip]
addison: are we ready to say something (and what)
15:36:53 [aphillip]
matial: way to display IRIs should become unique for all browsers
15:37:07 [aphillip]
addison; consistent, right?
15:37:22 [aphillip]
matial: same IRI displayed same way in all user-agents
15:38:11 [matial]
draft email
15:38:26 [aphillip]
addison: draft email about sense of WG? or come back next week? preference?
15:38:48 [aphillip]
norbert: there is no consensus in IRI community
15:40:27 [aphillip]
addison: problem is that there is diversity of opinion and we're unlikely to achieve a consensus of "100% minus one person"
15:40:54 [aphillip]
15:43:59 [aphillip]
aharon: side of bus is RTL, and works when typed in, but when some LTR thing is added to the URL, the whole thing changes direction, alarming user
15:44:44 [aphillip]
addison: some sense of a base implicit direction of LTR
15:45:47 [aphillip]
aharon: anyone with a RTL domain name will be unhappy if the domain is in LTR context
15:45:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:46:29 [aphillip]
... think there will be strong objections to consistently LTR IRIs
15:47:36 [aphillip]
addison: other possibility is that it's insoluable and doesn't get (need to get) solved
15:47:42 [aphillip]
... just guidelines for IRI beauty
15:48:13 [aphillip]
aharon: if you have an all RTL domain name/site name, you should take pains to create all RTL URIs (including path)
15:48:19 [aphillip]
... if you don't, it'll look ugly
15:48:28 [aphillip]
... but limit to how much those guidelines will be possible to follow
15:48:45 [aphillip]
... since parts such as query can't be fully controlled
15:49:07 [aphillip]
... or parts of the domain may be just an alias for an LTR name
15:49:46 [aphillip]
... would be value in publishing guideline
15:50:38 [aphillip]
andrew: two basic scenarios
15:50:55 [aphillip]
... IRI that is fully LTR and IRI that is fully RTL---both work consistently
15:51:07 [aphillip]
... when you mix that the problem occurs
15:51:25 [aphillip]
... so guidance on how to display
15:51:29 [aphillip]
... and guidance to e.g. CMS developers
15:51:44 [aphillip]
... so that they can implement in ways that makes sense and works
15:52:57 [aphillip]
addison: so... what to do/say at this point?
15:54:38 [aphillip]
... cut to chase with "guidelines"? or "normative display"? or?
15:55:13 [aphillip]
aharon: what about giving user preferences time to shake out, give time to user testing
15:55:27 [aphillip]
matial: some testing planned, but not happening yet
15:56:10 [aphillip]
... users of different proficiency how they perceive IRI (such as napkin/bus)
15:56:18 [aphillip]
... or when told, how they write it
15:56:53 [aphillip]
... hopefully these not-as-extensive-as-maybe-would-like will give us a sense
15:57:08 [aphillip]
... maybe get results in the next two or three months
15:57:17 [aphillip]
... but may get different results
15:57:24 [aphillip]
... maybe indication
15:57:33 [aphillip]
... might not be perfect
15:57:41 [aphillip]
... but solve simple cases
15:59:40 [aphillip]
... based on TLD, which is unlikely to change
16:00:14 [aphillip]
16:00:37 [aphillip]
16:02:01 [aphillip]
16:02:50 [Norbert]
16:05:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
16:08:29 [aphillip]
norbert: e.g. if you have entirely RTL domain name, you can do one thing
16:08:37 [koji]
sorry, I've got go...
16:08:40 [aphillip]
.. but also have to say how to make spoofs detected
16:09:06 [aphillip]
Topic: AOB?
16:09:23 [aphillip]
norbert: will there be user tests of IRIs in Arabic speaking countries?
16:09:32 [aphillip]
gwyneth: can follow up with Shawn
16:10:48 [aphillip]
addison: for next time?
16:10:54 [aphillip]
norbert 3987bis and ruby?
16:11:07 [aphillip]
addison: no objections?
16:11:22 [aphillip]
... will send links
16:11:39 [andrewc]
16:12:07 [aphillip]
andrew: which is TLD?
16:13:48 [Zakim]
16:13:52 [Zakim]
16:13:53 [Zakim]
16:13:55 [Zakim]
- +972.7.474.6aaaa
16:13:57 [Zakim]
16:14:00 [Zakim]
16:14:01 [Zakim]
16:14:04 [Zakim]
I18N_CoreWG()11:00AM has ended
16:14:06 [Zakim]
Attendees were koji, aphillip, matial, andrewc, Gwyneth, +972.7.474.6aaaa, +1.415.885.aabb, Norbert
16:14:06 [aharon]
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16:45:54 [aphillip]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:45:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
16:45:59 [aphillip]
zakim, bye
16:45:59 [Zakim]
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16:46:04 [aphillip]
rrsagent, bye
16:46:04 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items