IRC log of wcag2ict on 2012-06-08
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 13:59:55 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
- 13:59:55 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/08-wcag2ict-irc
- 13:59:57 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs world
- 13:59:59 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be 2428
- 13:59:59 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
- 14:00:00 [trackbot]
- Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
- 14:00:00 [trackbot]
- Date: 08 June 2012
- 14:00:07 [greggvanderheiden]
- greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
- 14:00:21 [Judy]
- Judy has joined #wcag2ict
- 14:01:08 [MaryJo]
- MaryJo has joined #wcag2ict
- 14:01:13 [Andi]
- Andi has joined #wcag2ict
- 14:02:06 [Loicmn]
- Hello everyone. I'm having troubles with my SIP connection. I may need to restart...
- 14:02:06 [janina]
- janina has joined #wcag2ict
- 14:02:06 [shadi]
- zakim, who is on the phone?
- 14:02:06 [Zakim]
- I notice WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has restarted
- 14:02:07 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see ??P9, Kiran_Kaja, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Suzette, Shadi, Al_Hoffman, +1.425.822.aaaa
- 14:02:19 [shadi]
- zakim, mute me
- 14:02:19 [Zakim]
- Shadi should now be muted
- 14:02:37 [Zakim]
- +??P17
- 14:02:47 [janina]
- zakim, ??P17 is Janina
- 14:02:47 [Zakim]
- +Janina; got it
- 14:03:00 [Alex]
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- 14:04:42 [Andi]
- agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag2ict-tf/2012Jun/0015.html
- 14:05:00 [Andi]
- agenda+ Action items review
- 14:05:17 [Andi]
- agenda+ Discussion of "Survey for June 5th Meeting" meeting preparation
- 14:05:33 [shadi]
- survey pointer: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN052012/
- 14:05:43 [Andi]
- agenda+ Confirm next meeting time; action items
- 14:05:59 [Andi]
- scribe: Andi
- 14:06:03 [Andi]
- zakim, next item
- 14:06:03 [Zakim]
- agendum 3. "Next survey available. Please complete by midnight Monday 4 June." taken up [from MichaelC]
- 14:06:10 [Andi]
- zakim, close item 3
- 14:06:10 [Zakim]
- agendum 3, Next survey available. Please complete by midnight Monday 4 June., closed
- 14:06:12 [Zakim]
- I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 14:06:12 [Zakim]
- 4. Confirm next meeting time; action items; [from MichaelC]
- 14:06:17 [Andi]
- zakim, close item 4
- 14:06:17 [Zakim]
- agendum 4, Confirm next meeting time; action items;, closed
- 14:06:18 [Zakim]
- I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 14:06:18 [Zakim]
- 5. Action items review [from Andi]
- 14:06:34 [Andi]
- action 4 - due June 12th
- 14:06:34 [trackbot]
- Sorry, couldn't find user - 4
- 14:08:08 [Zakim]
- +Judy
- 14:08:27 [Andi]
- action-5 - Gregg reports
- 14:08:35 [Andi]
- s/action 4/action-4/
- 14:09:26 [Andi]
- GV: word processing documents would meet the input error option
- 14:11:40 [Andi]
- GV: not clear so still need the modification
- 14:11:49 [Andi]
- zakim, next item
- 14:11:49 [Zakim]
- agendum 5. "Action items review" taken up [from Andi]
- 14:12:16 [Andi]
- zakim, next item
- 14:12:16 [Zakim]
- agendum 5 was just opened, Andi
- 14:12:20 [Andi]
- zakim, close item 5
- 14:12:20 [Zakim]
- agendum 5, Action items review, closed
- 14:12:21 [Zakim]
- I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 14:12:21 [Zakim]
- 6. Discussion of "Survey for June 5th Meeting" meeting preparation [from Andi]
- 14:13:17 [Andi]
- Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN052012/
- 14:14:08 [Andi]
- MP: Bruce's suggested edit seems reasonable
- 14:14:12 [Andi]
- no objection
- 14:14:14 [Zakim]
- +??P21
- 14:14:30 [Loicmn]
- I'm P21
- 14:15:00 [Andi]
- zakim, ??P21 is Loïc_Martínez
- 14:15:00 [Zakim]
- +Loïc_Martínez; got it
- 14:15:10 [Andi]
- regrets: Bruce_Bailey
- 14:16:51 [Andi]
- LM: agrees that techniques are out of scope
- 14:18:27 [Andi]
- ack Kiran
- 14:18:54 [Andi]
- KK: concern about use of "software renderers" - need to define
- 14:19:12 [Andi]
- KK: suggest user agent
- 14:20:38 [Andi]
- AS: user agent definition: any software that retrieves and presents Web content for users
- 14:21:48 [Andi]
- q+
- 14:22:25 [Andi]
- AH: use "user agent" but explain what it means outside web context
- 14:22:31 [Andi]
- ack Andi
- 14:22:45 [Alex]
- q+
- 14:23:05 [Andi]
- AS: would have to keep this open until we close on the definition of "user agent"
- 14:23:32 [Andi]
- AL: agree with approach but have to keep it open, "user agent" okay in PC world but perhaps not outside of PC world
- 14:23:42 [greggvanderheiden]
- q+
- 14:23:47 [Andi]
- ack alex
- 14:23:48 [Alex]
- q-
- 14:24:18 [Andi]
- ack gregg
- 14:24:51 [Andi]
- KK: problem with "software renderer" - okay if we define what it means
- 14:25:11 [greggvanderheiden]
- This success criterion applies directly as written and as it is described in intent from Understanding WCAG 2.0. Electronic content and electronic documents that have software players, viewers or editors with a 200 percent zoom feature would automatically meet this SC unless the content or document has some method for defeating the zoom.
- 14:27:12 [greggvanderheiden]
- : This success criterion applies directly as written and as it is described in intent from Understanding WCAG 2.0. Electronic content and electronic documents that have software players, viewers or editors with a 200 percent zoom feature would automatically meet this SC unless the content or document has something that interferes with zoom.
- 14:28:20 [greggvanderheiden]
- This success criterion applies directly as written and as it is described in intent from Understanding WCAG 2.0. Electronic content and electronic documents that have software players, viewers or editors with a 200 percent zoom feature would automatically meet this SC unless the content or document will not work with zoom.
- 14:28:21 [greggvanderheiden]
- .
- 14:30:12 [Andi]
- https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/1-perceivable/14-make-it-easier-for-users-to-see-and-hear-content---including-separating-foreground-from-background/144-resize-text
- 14:30:43 [greggvanderheiden]
- Proposal from TF meeting ========================
- 14:30:44 [greggvanderheiden]
- Additional guidance when applying to Electronic Documents
- 14:30:45 [greggvanderheiden]
- This success criterion applies directly as written and as it is described in intent from Understanding WCAG 2.0. Electronic content and electronic documents that have software players, viewers or editors with a 200 percent zoom feature would automatically meet this SC unless the content or document will not work with zoom.
- 14:30:46 [greggvanderheiden]
- Additional guidance when applying to Software Aspects of Products
- 14:30:47 [greggvanderheiden]
- ,
- 14:30:48 [greggvanderheiden]
- The INTENT refers to the ability to allow users to enlarge the text on screen at least up to 200 % without needing to use Assistive technologies. This would mean that either the application itself, or one of the platforms under it, would have to provide some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) while retaining full functionality and without the application interfering with it.
- 14:33:50 [greggvanderheiden]
- : The INTENT refers to the ability to allow users to enlarge the text on screen at least up to 200 % without needing to use Assistive technologies. This would mean that either the application itself, or one of the platforms under it, would have to provide some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) while retaining full functionality and the application must support that text enlarging capability.
- 14:34:47 [greggvanderheiden]
- The INTENT refers to the ability to allow users to enlarge the text on screen at least up to 200 % without needing to use Assistive technologies. This would mean that either the application itself, or one of the platforms under it, would have to provide some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) while retaining full functionality, and the application supports that capability.
- 14:35:40 [greggvanderheiden]
- : The INTENT refers to the ability to allow users to enlarge the text on screen at least up to 200 % without needing to use Assistive technologies. This means that either the application itself, or one of the platforms under it, would have to provide some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) while retaining full functionality, and the application supports that capability.
- 14:35:48 [Zakim]
- +David_MacDonald
- 14:36:36 [David]
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- 14:37:25 [Loicmn]
- q+
- 14:37:48 [Andi]
- ack loicmn
- 14:37:49 [greggvanderheiden]
- The INTENT refers to the ability to allow users to enlarge the text on screen at least up to 200 % without needing to use Assistive technologies. This means that either the application itself, or one of the platforms under it, provides some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) while retaining full functionality, and the application supports that capability.
- 14:39:08 [Andi]
- RESOLUTION: accept text for documents as amended in the meeting
- 14:39:16 [greggvanderheiden]
- : The INTENT refers to the ability to allow users to enlarge the text on screen at least up to 200 % without needing to use Assistive technologies. This means that either the application itself, or one of the platforms under it, provides some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) while retaining full functionality. If the platform is relied upon, the application supports that capability.
- 14:40:03 [greggvanderheiden]
- The INTENT refers to the ability to allow users to enlarge the text on screen at least up to 200 % without needing to use Assistive technologies. This means that either the application itself, or one of the platforms under it, provides some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) while retaining full functionality. If the platform is relied upon, the application supports the platform capability.
- 14:42:34 [Judy]
- Judy has left #wcag2ict
- 14:42:35 [greggvanderheiden]
- The INTENT refers to the ability to allow users to enlarge the text on screen at least up to 200 % without needing to use Assistive technologies. This means that either the application itself, or one of the platforms under it, provides some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) without loss of content or functionality. If the platform capability is relied upon, the application supports the platform capability.
- 14:42:40 [Judy]
- Judy has joined #wcag2ict
- 14:42:50 [greggvanderheiden]
- The INTENT refers to the ability to allow users to enlarge the text on screen at least up to 200 % without needing to use Assistive technologies. This means that either the application itself, or one of the platforms under it, provides some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) without loss of content or functionality. If a platform capability is relied upon, the application supports the platform capability.
- 14:44:01 [Andi]
- RESOLUTION: accept text for software as amended in the meeting
- 14:44:20 [Andi]
- s/text for documents/1.4.4 text for documents/
- 14:44:31 [Andi]
- s/text for software/1.4.4 text for software/
- 14:44:58 [Loicmn]
- q+
- 14:45:36 [Loicmn]
- q-
- 14:46:24 [Andi]
- 2.1.1 Keyboard Operation
- 14:46:52 [Andi]
- s/Bruce's suggested edit seems reasonable/1.4.4 Resize Text: Bruce's suggested edit seems reasonable/
- 14:47:57 [Andi]
- q+
- 14:48:48 [Alex]
- q+
- 14:49:26 [janina]
- +1 to Andi
- 14:49:36 [David]
- q+
- 14:49:38 [Andi]
- ack Andi
- 14:49:50 [mapluke]
- q+
- 14:50:35 [Andi]
- AS: either need a more device independent term than "keyboard interface" or we need to define "keyboard interface" to be more generic than keystroke encoding
- 14:54:01 [Andi]
- q+ Al_Hoffman
- 14:54:27 [greggvanderheiden]
- q+
- 14:54:48 [Andi]
- ack alex
- 14:55:13 [Andi]
- AL: game controller input depends on the path so it qualifies for the exception
- 14:55:35 [Andi]
- AL: is this only about a device that can accept discrete input?
- 14:56:18 [greggvanderheiden]
- re AL: the exception is only for input that can ONLY be done via ….etc.
- 14:56:35 [greggvanderheiden]
- ack d
- 14:56:37 [greggvanderheiden]
- ack k
- 14:56:46 [Andi]
- DM: WCAG is still in the keyboard world
- 14:57:12 [Loicmn]
- q+
- 14:57:20 [Andi]
- KK: can't use keystroke encoding - lots of input mechanisms - the key is a device independent way
- 14:58:23 [Andi]
- AH: have to live with what is in WCAG. Could add note that many other ways are coming that need to be looked at.
- 14:58:41 [Andi]
- GV: have to go with what's here
- 14:58:46 [mapluke]
- q+
- 14:59:13 [Andi]
- GV: dpad is time dependent which violates another success criteria
- 14:59:19 [Andi]
- ack mapluke
- 14:59:21 [Andi]
- ack al
- 14:59:24 [Andi]
- ack gregg
- 14:59:28 [Alex]
- q+
- 15:00:38 [Loicmn]
- q-
- 15:01:28 [Andi]
- GV: can be any kind of device that generates discrete commands that are not time dependent
- 15:01:59 [Andi]
- GV: allows speech, Braille, etc. input
- 15:02:06 [greggvanderheiden]
- ack alex
- 15:02:34 [greggvanderheiden]
- q+
- 15:02:39 [David]
- q+
- 15:02:44 [Andi]
- AL: dpad is similar to using arrow keys where you hold down the arrow key to scroll the page
- 15:02:48 [Andi]
- ack gregg
- 15:03:09 [David]
- q-
- 15:03:19 [Alex]
- q+
- 15:03:50 [Loicmn]
- q+
- 15:04:01 [Andi]
- GV: simple taps on the dpad work but holding it down doesn't work because it's time dependent just as holding down an arrow key doesn't work because it's time dependent
- 15:04:04 [Andi]
- ack alex
- 15:04:15 [greggvanderheiden]
- q+
- 15:04:34 [Andi]
- AL: buttons on game controller are the same as buttons on a keyboard
- 15:06:04 [Andi]
- LM: points out that 2.1.1 does say "without requiring specific timings for individual keystrokes"
- 15:07:39 [Andi]
- ack loicmn
- 15:08:03 [Andi]
- q+
- 15:08:07 [Loicmn]
- q+
- 15:09:05 [greggvanderheiden]
- Additional guidance when applying to Software Aspects of Products
- 15:09:06 [greggvanderheiden]
- Keyboard interfaces are programmatic services provided by platforms that allow text input and operation in a device independent manner. This success criterion does not imply the presence of a hardware keyboard, but only the existence of a means to input text and control the software using encoded (keystroke) input. This encoded (keyboard) input could come from a virtual keyboard or from a physical built-in or external (wired or wireless)
- 15:09:06 [greggvanderheiden]
- keyboard. Nothing in the WCAG INTENT discourages pointing, gesture or other input as secondary or primary mode of input as long as the SC is met.
- 15:09:21 [Andi]
- ack gregg
- 15:09:31 [Andi]
- KK: what about T9 keyboards?
- 15:09:41 [Andi]
- GV: T9 keyboards generate keystroke input
- 15:10:56 [Andi]
- GV: swipe requires timing but the function being invoked by the swipe does not require timing
- 15:12:50 [Andi]
- AS: propose removing "(keystroke)" from "encoded (keystroke) input"
- 15:13:03 [janina]
- q+
- 15:13:34 [Andi]
- GV: would have to define "encoded input" which would make it harder to read - mouse input is "encoded input"
- 15:13:39 [Andi]
- q+ Al_Hoffman
- 15:13:40 [Andi]
- ack andi
- 15:13:55 [Loicmn]
- This encoded (keyboard) input could come from software (such as a virtual keyboard or a speech recognition engine) or from a physical built-in or external (wired or wireless) keyboard.
- 15:14:03 [greggvanderheiden]
- andi was encoded the only edit you wanted to make?
- 15:14:38 [David]
- q+
- 15:15:08 [Andi]
- ack loic
- 15:15:19 [greggvanderheiden]
- q+
- 15:15:59 [Andi]
- JS: too much focus on the device that is generating the event, even keystroke generates scan code
- 15:16:02 [Andi]
- ack janina
- 15:16:22 [Alex]
- q+
- 15:16:32 [Andi]
- ack al
- 15:16:41 [Andi]
- AH: change keyboard to character
- 15:16:44 [Andi]
- ack al
- 15:17:04 [Loicmn]
- It's not only character (think about arrow keys and "tab")
- 15:17:05 [Andi]
- GV: arrow keys are not characters and they are allowed
- 15:17:08 [Alex]
- q+
- 15:17:36 [shadi]
- q+
- 15:18:20 [Andi]
- ack david
- 15:18:58 [Andi]
- DM: what we were trying to do for WCAG was a very narrow focus
- 15:19:03 [Andi]
- ack gregg
- 15:20:20 [greggvanderheiden]
- This encoded (keyboard) input could come from software (such as a virtual keyboard or a speech recognition engine) or from a physical built-in or external (wired or wireless) keyboard or any other method for generating character plus control key input.
- 15:20:28 [Andi]
- GV: Andi wanted to suggest an edit to the last sentence that would clarify this is not an exhaustive list
- 15:20:52 [Alex]
- q-
- 15:21:05 [shadi]
- ack me
- 15:21:43 [Andi]
- q+
- 15:21:58 [shadi]
- zakim, mute me
- 15:21:58 [Zakim]
- Shadi should now be muted
- 15:22:12 [greggvanderheiden]
- interface used by software to obtain keystroke input
- 15:22:27 [shadi]
- ack me
- 15:22:35 [Alex]
- q+
- 15:23:13 [Loicmn]
- q+
- 15:23:15 [shadi]
- zakim, mute me
- 15:23:15 [Zakim]
- Shadi should now be muted
- 15:24:04 [Andi]
- ack me
- 15:24:04 [greggvanderheiden]
- q+
- 15:25:13 [Andi]
- AS: should use one term unless we really mean something different by "encoded (keyboard) input" or "encoded (keystroke) input"
- 15:25:17 [Andi]
- ack alex
- 15:25:31 [Loicmn]
- What we really need is a non-timing way of providing text + control input. Forget about the "old ways" (key codes).
- 15:26:02 [greggvanderheiden]
- This keyboard (encoded) input could come from software (such as a virtual keyboard or a speech recognition engine) or from a physical built-in or external (wired or wireless) keyboard or any other method for generating keyboard (encoded) input .
- 15:26:37 [Andi]
- AS: also concern that if we persist in requiring this to be keyboard or keystroke input, no mobile software will be able to comply no matter what they do to solve the problem.
- 15:27:16 [Andi]
- AL: mentions other forms of input such as a camera
- 15:27:44 [Andi]
- GV: camera input can't be used to operate functionality
- 15:28:03 [Andi]
- GV: 2.1.1 is only about the way you operate the functionality
- 15:28:10 [Zakim]
- -Al_Hoffman
- 15:28:45 [Andi]
- GV: hard to imagine any kind of mobile device that doesn't support character input
- 15:29:05 [Andi]
- GV: if can only operate with gestures, it won't be accessible
- 15:29:35 [Andi]
- MP: need more proposals - suggests continuing debate via e-mail
- 15:30:02 [Andi]
- DM: fundamental question we need to resolve amongst ourselves
- 15:32:38 [Zakim]
- -Andi_Snow_Weaver
- 15:32:39 [Zakim]
- - +1.425.822.aaaa
- 15:32:39 [Zakim]
- -Mary_Jo_Mueller
- 15:32:41 [Zakim]
- -David_MacDonald
- 15:32:44 [Zakim]
- -Kiran_Kaja
- 15:32:45 [Zakim]
- -Shadi
- 15:32:45 [Zakim]
- -Loïc_Martínez
- 15:32:47 [Zakim]
- -Janina
- 15:32:49 [janina]
- janina has left #wcag2ict
- 15:32:51 [Zakim]
- -Judy
- 15:32:55 [Andi]
- GV: solution might lie in Andi's idea of "device independent" - can she provide a description of how that would work
- 15:33:02 [Andi]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 15:33:02 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/08-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
- 15:33:07 [Zakim]
- -Suzette
- 15:33:29 [Andi]
- zakim, bye
- 15:33:29 [Zakim]
- leaving. As of this point the attendees were Kiran_Kaja, Al_Hoffman, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Suzette, Shadi, +1.425.822.aaaa, Janina, Judy, Loïc_Martínez,
- 15:33:29 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #wcag2ict
- 15:33:32 [Zakim]
- ... David_MacDonald
- 16:44:55 [Andi]
- s/andi was encoded the only edit you wanted to make?//
- 16:45:07 [Andi]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 16:45:07 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/08-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi