13:59:55 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:59:55 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/08-wcag2ict-irc
13:59:57 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:59:59 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2428
13:59:59 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:00:00 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
14:00:00 <trackbot> Date: 08 June 2012
14:00:07 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
14:00:21 <Judy> Judy has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:08 <MaryJo> MaryJo has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:13 <Andi> Andi has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:06 <Loicmn> Hello everyone. I'm having troubles with my SIP connection. I may need to restart...
14:02:06 <janina> janina has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:06 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:02:06 <Zakim> I notice WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has restarted
14:02:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P9, Kiran_Kaja, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Suzette, Shadi, Al_Hoffman, +1.425.822.aaaa
14:02:19 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:02:19 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:02:37 <Zakim> +??P17
14:02:47 <janina> zakim, ??P17 is Janina
14:02:47 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
14:03:00 <Alex> Alex has joined #wcag2ict
14:04:42 <Andi> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag2ict-tf/2012Jun/0015.html
14:05:00 <Andi> agenda+ Action items review
14:05:17 <Andi> agenda+ Discussion of "Survey for June 5th Meeting" meeting preparation
14:05:33 <shadi> survey pointer: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN052012/
14:05:43 <Andi> agenda+ Confirm next meeting time; action items
14:05:59 <Andi> scribe: Andi
14:06:03 <Andi> zakim, next item
14:06:03 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Next survey available. Please complete by midnight Monday 4 June." taken up [from MichaelC]
14:06:10 <Andi> zakim, close item 3
14:06:10 <Zakim> agendum 3, Next survey available. Please complete by midnight Monday 4 June., closed
14:06:12 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:06:12 <Zakim> 4. Confirm next meeting time; action items; [from MichaelC]
14:06:17 <Andi> zakim, close item 4
14:06:17 <Zakim> agendum 4, Confirm next meeting time; action items;, closed
14:06:18 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:06:18 <Zakim> 5. Action items review [from Andi]
14:06:34 <Andi> action 4 - due June 12th
14:06:34 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 4
14:08:08 <Zakim> +Judy
14:08:27 <Andi> action-5 - Gregg reports 
14:08:35 <Andi> s/action 4/action-4/
14:09:26 <Andi> GV: word processing documents would meet the input error option
14:11:40 <Andi> GV: not clear so still need the modification
14:11:49 <Andi> zakim, next item
14:11:49 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Action items review" taken up [from Andi]
14:12:16 <Andi> zakim, next item
14:12:16 <Zakim> agendum 5 was just opened, Andi
14:12:20 <Andi> zakim, close item 5
14:12:20 <Zakim> agendum 5, Action items review, closed
14:12:21 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:12:21 <Zakim> 6. Discussion of "Survey for June 5th Meeting" meeting preparation [from Andi]
14:13:17 <Andi> Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN052012/
14:14:08 <Andi> MP: Bruce's suggested edit seems reasonable
14:14:12 <Andi> no objection
14:14:14 <Zakim> +??P21
14:14:30 <Loicmn> I'm P21
14:15:00 <Andi> zakim, ??P21 is Loïc_Martínez
14:15:00 <Zakim> +Loïc_Martínez; got it
14:15:10 <Andi> regrets: Bruce_Bailey
14:16:51 <Andi> LM: agrees that techniques are out of scope
14:18:27 <Andi> ack Kiran
14:18:54 <Andi> KK: concern about use of "software renderers" - need to define
14:19:12 <Andi> KK: suggest user agent
14:20:38 <Andi> AS: user agent definition: any software that retrieves and presents Web content for users
14:21:48 <Andi> q+
14:22:25 <Andi> AH: use "user agent" but explain what it means outside web context
14:22:31 <Andi> ack Andi
14:22:45 <Alex> q+
14:23:05 <Andi> AS: would have to keep this open until we close on the definition of "user agent"
14:23:32 <Andi> AL: agree with approach but have to keep it open, "user agent" okay in PC world but perhaps not outside of PC world
14:23:42 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:23:47 <Andi> ack alex
14:23:48 <Alex> q-
14:24:18 <Andi> ack gregg
14:24:51 <Andi> KK: problem with "software renderer" - okay if we define what it means
14:25:11 <greggvanderheiden> This success criterion applies directly as written and as it is described in intent from Understanding WCAG 2.0. Electronic content and electronic documents that have software players, viewers or editors with a 200 percent zoom feature would automatically meet this SC unless the content or document has some method for defeating the zoom.
14:27:12 <greggvanderheiden> : This success criterion applies directly as written and as it is described in intent from Understanding WCAG 2.0. Electronic content and electronic documents that have software players, viewers or editors with a 200 percent zoom feature would automatically meet this SC unless the content or document has something that interferes with zoom.
14:28:20 <greggvanderheiden> This success criterion applies directly as written and as it is described in intent from Understanding WCAG 2.0. Electronic content and electronic documents that have software players, viewers or editors with a 200 percent zoom feature would automatically meet this SC unless the content or document will not work with zoom.
14:28:21 <greggvanderheiden> .
14:30:12 <Andi> https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/1-perceivable/14-make-it-easier-for-users-to-see-and-hear-content---including-separating-foreground-from-background/144-resize-text
14:30:43 <greggvanderheiden> Proposal from TF meeting ========================
14:30:44 <greggvanderheiden> Additional guidance when applying to Electronic Documents
14:30:45 <greggvanderheiden> This success criterion applies directly as written and as it is described in intent from Understanding WCAG 2.0. Electronic content and electronic documents that have software players, viewers or editors with a 200 percent zoom feature would automatically meet this SC unless the content or document will not work with zoom.
14:30:46 <greggvanderheiden> Additional guidance when applying to Software Aspects of Products
14:30:47 <greggvanderheiden> , 
14:30:48 <greggvanderheiden> The INTENT refers to the ability to allow users to enlarge the text on screen at least up to 200 % without needing to use Assistive technologies. This would mean that either the application itself, or one of the platforms under it, would have to provide some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) while retaining full functionality and without the application interfering with it.
14:33:50 <greggvanderheiden> : The INTENT refers to the ability to allow users to enlarge the text on screen at least up to 200 % without needing to use Assistive technologies. This would mean that either the application itself, or one of the platforms under it, would have to provide some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) while retaining full functionality and the application must support that text enlarging capability.
14:34:47 <greggvanderheiden> The INTENT refers to the ability to allow users to enlarge the text on screen at least up to 200 % without needing to use Assistive technologies. This would mean that either the application itself, or one of the platforms under it, would have to provide some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) while retaining full functionality, and the application supports that  capability.
14:35:40 <greggvanderheiden> : The INTENT refers to the ability to allow users to enlarge the text on screen at least up to 200 % without needing to use Assistive technologies. This means that either the application itself, or one of the platforms under it, would have to provide some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) while retaining full functionality, and the application supports that  capability.
14:35:48 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
14:36:36 <David> David has joined #wcag2ict
14:37:25 <Loicmn> q+
14:37:48 <Andi> ack loicmn
14:37:49 <greggvanderheiden> The INTENT refers to the ability to allow users to enlarge the text on screen at least up to 200 % without needing to use Assistive technologies. This means that either the application itself, or one of the platforms under it, provides some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) while retaining full functionality, and the application supports that  capability.
14:39:08 <Andi> RESOLUTION: accept text for documents as amended in the meeting
14:39:16 <greggvanderheiden> : The INTENT refers to the ability to allow users to enlarge the text on screen at least up to 200 % without needing to use Assistive technologies. This means that either the application itself, or one of the platforms under it, provides some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) while retaining full functionality. If the platform is relied upon, the application supports that  capability.
14:40:03 <greggvanderheiden> The INTENT refers to the ability to allow users to enlarge the text on screen at least up to 200 % without needing to use Assistive technologies. This means that either the application itself, or one of the platforms under it, provides some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) while retaining full functionality. If the platform is relied upon, the application supports the platform  capability.
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14:42:35 <greggvanderheiden> The INTENT refers to the ability to allow users to enlarge the text on screen at least up to 200 % without needing to use Assistive technologies. This means that either the application itself, or one of the platforms under it, provides some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) without loss of content or functionality. If the platform capability is relied upon, the application supports the platform  capability.
14:42:40 <Judy> Judy has joined #wcag2ict
14:42:50 <greggvanderheiden> The INTENT refers to the ability to allow users to enlarge the text on screen at least up to 200 % without needing to use Assistive technologies. This means that either the application itself, or one of the platforms under it, provides some means for enlarging the text 200% (zoom or otherwise) without loss of content or functionality. If a platform capability is relied upon, the application supports the platform  capability.
14:44:01 <Andi> RESOLUTION: accept text for software as amended in the meeting
14:44:20 <Andi> s/text for documents/1.4.4 text for documents/
14:44:31 <Andi> s/text for software/1.4.4 text for software/
14:44:58 <Loicmn> q+
14:45:36 <Loicmn> q-
14:46:24 <Andi> 2.1.1 Keyboard Operation
14:46:52 <Andi> s/Bruce's suggested edit seems reasonable/1.4.4 Resize Text: Bruce's suggested edit seems reasonable/
14:47:57 <Andi> q+
14:48:48 <Alex> q+
14:49:26 <janina> +1 to Andi
14:49:36 <David> q+
14:49:38 <Andi>  ack Andi
14:49:50 <mapluke> q+
14:50:35 <Andi> AS: either need a more device independent term than "keyboard interface" or we need to define "keyboard interface" to be more generic than keystroke encoding
14:54:01 <Andi> q+ Al_Hoffman
14:54:27 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:54:48 <Andi> ack alex
14:55:13 <Andi> AL: game controller input depends on the path so it qualifies for the exception
14:55:35 <Andi> AL: is this only about a device that can accept discrete input?
14:56:18 <greggvanderheiden> re AL:   the exception is only for input that can ONLY be done via ….etc.
14:56:35 <greggvanderheiden> ack d
14:56:37 <greggvanderheiden> ack k
14:56:46 <Andi> DM: WCAG is still in the keyboard world
14:57:12 <Loicmn> q+
14:57:20 <Andi> KK: can't use keystroke encoding - lots of input mechanisms - the key is a device independent way 
14:58:23 <Andi> AH: have to live with what is in WCAG. Could add note that many other ways are coming that need to be looked at.
14:58:41 <Andi> GV: have to go with what's here
14:58:46 <mapluke> q+
14:59:13 <Andi> GV: dpad is time dependent which violates another success criteria
14:59:19 <Andi> ack mapluke
14:59:21 <Andi> ack al
14:59:24 <Andi> ack gregg
14:59:28 <Alex> q+
15:00:38 <Loicmn> q-
15:01:28 <Andi> GV: can be any kind of device that generates discrete commands that are not time dependent
15:01:59 <Andi> GV: allows speech, Braille, etc. input
15:02:06 <greggvanderheiden> ack alex
15:02:34 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:02:39 <David> q+
15:02:44 <Andi> AL: dpad is similar to using arrow keys where you hold down the arrow key to scroll the page
15:02:48 <Andi> ack gregg
15:03:09 <David> q-
15:03:19 <Alex> q+
15:03:50 <Loicmn> q+
15:04:01 <Andi> GV: simple taps on the dpad work but holding it down doesn't work because it's time dependent just as holding down an arrow key doesn't work because it's time dependent
15:04:04 <Andi> ack alex
15:04:15 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:04:34 <Andi> AL: buttons on game controller are the same as buttons on a keyboard
15:06:04 <Andi> LM: points out that 2.1.1 does say "without requiring specific timings for individual keystrokes"
15:07:39 <Andi> ack loicmn
15:08:03 <Andi> q+
15:08:07 <Loicmn> q+
15:09:05 <greggvanderheiden> Additional guidance when applying to Software Aspects of Products
15:09:06 <greggvanderheiden> Keyboard interfaces are programmatic services provided by platforms that allow text input and operation in a device independent manner. This success criterion does not imply the presence of a hardware keyboard, but only the existence of a means to input text and control the software using encoded (keystroke) input. This encoded (keyboard) input could come from a virtual keyboard or from a physical built-in or external (wired or wireless) 
15:09:06 <greggvanderheiden> keyboard. Nothing in the WCAG INTENT discourages pointing, gesture or other input as secondary or primary mode of input as long as the SC is met. 
15:09:21 <Andi> ack gregg
15:09:31 <Andi> KK: what about T9 keyboards?
15:09:41 <Andi> GV: T9 keyboards generate keystroke input
15:10:56 <Andi> GV: swipe requires timing but the function being invoked by the swipe does not require timing
15:12:50 <Andi> AS: propose removing "(keystroke)" from "encoded (keystroke) input"
15:13:03 <janina> q+
15:13:34 <Andi> GV: would have to define "encoded input" which would make it harder to read - mouse input is "encoded input"
15:13:39 <Andi> q+ Al_Hoffman
15:13:40 <Andi> ack andi
15:13:55 <Loicmn> This encoded (keyboard) input could come from software (such as a virtual keyboard or a speech recognition engine) or from a physical built-in or external (wired or wireless) keyboard.
15:14:03 <greggvanderheiden> andi was encoded the only edit you wanted to make?
15:14:38 <David> q+
15:15:08 <Andi> ack loic
15:15:19 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:15:59 <Andi> JS: too much focus on the device that is generating the event, even keystroke generates scan code
15:16:02 <Andi> ack janina
15:16:22 <Alex> q+
15:16:32 <Andi> ack al
15:16:41 <Andi> AH: change keyboard to character
15:16:44 <Andi> ack al
15:17:04 <Loicmn> It's not only character (think about arrow keys and "tab")
15:17:05 <Andi> GV: arrow keys are not characters and they are allowed
15:17:08 <Alex> q+
15:17:36 <shadi> q+
15:18:20 <Andi> ack david
15:18:58 <Andi> DM: what we were trying to do for WCAG was a very narrow focus
15:19:03 <Andi> ack gregg
15:20:20 <greggvanderheiden> This encoded (keyboard) input could come from software (such as a virtual keyboard or a speech recognition engine) or from a physical built-in or external (wired or wireless) keyboard or any other method for generating character plus control key input. 
15:20:28 <Andi> GV: Andi wanted to suggest an edit to the last sentence that would clarify this is not an exhaustive list
15:20:52 <Alex> q-
15:21:05 <shadi> ack me
15:21:43 <Andi> q+
15:21:58 <shadi> zakim, mute me
15:21:58 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
15:22:12 <greggvanderheiden> interface used by software to obtain keystroke input
15:22:27 <shadi> ack me
15:22:35 <Alex> q+
15:23:13 <Loicmn> q+
15:23:15 <shadi> zakim, mute me
15:23:15 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
15:24:04 <Andi> ack me
15:24:04 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:25:13 <Andi> AS: should use one term unless we really mean something different by "encoded (keyboard) input" or "encoded (keystroke) input"
15:25:17 <Andi> ack alex
15:25:31 <Loicmn> What we really need is a non-timing way of providing text + control input. Forget about the "old ways" (key codes). 
15:26:02 <greggvanderheiden> This keyboard (encoded) input could come from software (such as a virtual keyboard or a speech recognition engine) or from a physical built-in or external (wired or wireless) keyboard or any other method for generating keyboard (encoded) input .
15:26:37 <Andi> AS: also concern that if we persist in requiring this to be keyboard or keystroke input, no mobile software will be able to comply no matter what they do to solve the problem.
15:27:16 <Andi> AL: mentions other forms of input such as a camera
15:27:44 <Andi> GV: camera input can't be used to operate functionality
15:28:03 <Andi> GV: 2.1.1 is only about the way you operate the functionality
15:28:10 <Zakim> -Al_Hoffman
15:28:45 <Andi> GV: hard to imagine any kind of mobile device that doesn't support character input
15:29:05 <Andi> GV: if can only operate with gestures, it won't be accessible
15:29:35 <Andi> MP: need more proposals - suggests continuing debate via e-mail
15:30:02 <Andi> DM: fundamental question we need to resolve amongst ourselves
15:32:38 <Zakim> -Andi_Snow_Weaver
15:32:39 <Zakim> - +1.425.822.aaaa
15:32:39 <Zakim> -Mary_Jo_Mueller
15:32:41 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
15:32:44 <Zakim> -Kiran_Kaja
15:32:45 <Zakim> -Shadi
15:32:45 <Zakim> -Loïc_Martínez
15:32:47 <Zakim> -Janina
15:32:49 <janina> janina has left #wcag2ict
15:32:51 <Zakim> -Judy
15:32:55 <Andi> GV: solution might lie in Andi's idea of "device independent" - can she provide a description of how that would work
15:33:02 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
15:33:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/08-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
15:33:07 <Zakim> -Suzette
15:33:29 <Andi> zakim, bye
15:33:29 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Kiran_Kaja, Al_Hoffman, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Suzette, Shadi, +1.425.822.aaaa, Janina, Judy, Loïc_Martínez,
15:33:29 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict
15:33:32 <Zakim> ... David_MacDonald
16:44:55 <Andi> s/andi was encoded the only edit you wanted to make?//
16:45:07 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
16:45:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/08-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi