13:57:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:57:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/05-wcag2ict-irc
13:58:06 <David> David has joined #wcag2ict
13:58:53 <MichaelC> trackbot, start meeting
13:58:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:58:57 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2428
13:58:57 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
13:58:58 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:58:58 <trackbot> Date: 05 June 2012
13:59:27 <David> zakim, who's here?
13:59:27 <Zakim> WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has not yet started, David
13:59:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see David, RRSAgent, Zakim, Judy, mapluke, Andi, MichaelC, trackbot
14:00:20 <Zakim> +Andi_Snow_Weaver
14:00:22 <Zakim> +Al_Hoffman
14:00:59 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag2ict-tf/2012Jun/0013.html
14:01:02 <Zakim> +Mary_Jo_Mueller
14:01:04 <MichaelC> chair: Andi_Snow-Weaver
14:01:11 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
14:01:18 <MaryJo> MaryJo has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:27 <MichaelC> zakim, Microsoft is Alex_Li
14:01:28 <Zakim> +Alex_Li; got it
14:01:34 <MichaelC> agenda+ Identify Scribe, discussion on what should be in the minutes
14:01:36 <MichaelC> agenda+ "Comments on SC 1.2.x and 3.3.4" Survey starting with 1.2.4 <
14:01:37 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/MAY292012/results>
14:01:39 <MichaelC> agenda+ Next survey available. Please complete by midnight Monday 4 June.
14:01:40 <MichaelC> agenda+ Confirm next meeting time; action items;
14:01:55 <Zakim> +Judy
14:01:58 <Alex_> Alex_ has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:26 <Zakim> +??P16
14:02:37 <Andi> regrets: Kiran_Kaja, Peter_Korn, Loïc_Martinez
14:02:49 <Andi> zakim, ??P16 is Mike_Pluke
14:02:49 <Zakim> +Mike_Pluke; got it
14:02:56 <Andi> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:02:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see David_MacDonald, Cooper, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Al_Hoffman, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Alex_Li, Judy, Mike_Pluke
14:03:33 <Zakim> +Bruce_Bailey
14:03:35 <janina> janina has joined #wcag2ict
14:03:35 <mapluke> mapluke has joined #wcag2ict
14:03:51 <Zakim> +??P25
14:03:53 <Zakim> +??P26
14:03:57 <janina> zakim, ??P25 is Janina
14:03:57 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
14:04:19 <Zakim> -Janina
14:04:34 <Judy> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:04:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see David_MacDonald, Cooper, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Al_Hoffman, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Alex_Li, Judy, Mike_Pluke, Bruce_Bailey, ??P26
14:04:39 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P26 is Janina_Sajka
14:04:39 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
14:05:02 <BBailey> BBailey has joined #wcag2ict
14:05:21 <MaryJo> scribe: MaryJo
14:05:40 <MichaelC> zakim, next item
14:05:40 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Identify Scribe, discussion on what should be in the minutes" taken up [from MichaelC]
14:06:02 <Judy> q+
14:07:39 <Andi> ack judy
14:07:52 <MaryJo> Judy: Suggested for minutes, send a link to them in email rather than static text snapshot to give opportunity for corrections.
14:08:15 <Andi> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/MAY292012/results#xq10
14:08:23 <MaryJo> zakim, next item
14:08:23 <Zakim> agendum 2. ""Comments on SC 1.2.x and 3.3.4" Survey starting with 1.2.4 <" taken up [from MichaelC]
14:10:36 <Andi> https://sites.google.com/site/wcag2ict/home/1-perceivable/12-provide-alternatives-for-time-based-media/122-captions-prerecorded
14:11:01 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
14:11:46 <Zakim> +??P32
14:11:55 <MaryJo> as: Gregg's suggestion needs some changes, as it seems to contradict itself concerning the inclusion of live streaming information. 
14:11:59 <Zakim> -??P32
14:12:06 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
14:12:50 <Zakim> +??P32
14:12:51 <MaryJo> David: Suggest on the note to use words "such things as..."
14:13:13 <Andi> zakim, ??P32 is Gregg_Vanderheiden
14:13:13 <Zakim> +Gregg_Vanderheiden; got it
14:13:30 <greggvanderheid-1> greggvanderheid-1 has joined #wcag2ict
14:13:41 <Zakim> -Gregg_Vanderheiden
14:14:21 <Zakim> +??P32
14:15:51 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
14:15:55 <Zakim> -??P32
14:16:29 <Zakim> +Gregg_Vanderheiden
14:18:19 <MaryJo> GV: Software and documents could bundle a live content service with the software or document then the package must comply.
14:20:23 <mapluke> q+
14:20:53 <MaryJo> GV: Depends on the thing being evaluated - is it the player, or is it the live content?  
14:20:57 <Andi> q+ Al_Hoffman
14:22:16 <MaryJo> AL: If the thing meeting the conformance criteria does not itself contain live content, it automatically complies.  If it contains live content, it must comply.
14:22:35 <Andi> s/AL/AS/
14:23:13 <Andi> ack mapluke
14:24:18 <mapluke> q+
14:24:20 <Judy> q+
14:24:39 <Andi> ack al
14:24:47 <MaryJo> AH: We need to separate content from the user agent.
14:24:48 <Andi> ack mapluke
14:25:35 <Alex_> q+
14:25:35 <greggvanderheiden> This applies directly etc.    If the product (document or software) does not contain live content then it automatically meets this SC (whether it can be used to view live content or not).     NOTE:  Requirements for ability of players or viewers to support captions for media being played or viewed is not within WCAG's scope and would have to be required in some other fashion than WCAG SC.  
14:25:43 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:25:55 <Andi> ack judy
14:26:01 <MaryJo> Judy: Some parts of the User Agent accessibility were in the first 508 ANPRM - and is not covered under WCAG but is under UUAG.
14:26:04 <Andi> ack alex
14:26:11 <mapluke> q+
14:26:35 <MaryJo> Alex: 2nd 508 ANRPM dropped that requirement.  
14:26:37 <janina> q+
14:26:55 <Andi> ack gregg
14:27:04 <MaryJo> AS: Latest M376 draft does have this requirement for anything that supports video.
14:28:08 <janina> ack janina
14:28:55 <Andi> ack mapluke
14:29:00 <MaryJo> GV: Should add a note to make this clear.
14:29:24 <Alex_> q+
14:31:23 <MaryJo> RESOLUTION: Accept Trace proposal as amended by Gregg in the meeting with the note on captions/subtitles that has been added to 1.2.2 as amended by David.
14:31:45 <janina> +1 to Allen
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14:35:30 <Andi> s/Accept Trace proposal as amended by Gregg in the meeting with the note on captions/subtitles that has been added to 1.2.2 as amended by David./Accept proposal as amended: This applies directly as written, and as described in  INTENT  from Understanding WCAG 2.0  (above). If the product (document or software) does not contain live content then it automatically meets this SC (whether it can 
14:35:30 <Andi> be used to view live content or not).     NOTE:  Requirements for ability of players or viewers to support captions for media being played or viewed is not within WCAG's scope and would have to be required in some other fashion than WCAG SC. NOTE: The WCAG 2.0 definition of Captions notes that "In some countries, captions are called subtitles".   They are also sometimes referred to as "subtitles 
14:35:30 <Andi> for the hearing impaired."   Per the definition in WCAG 2.0, to meet this SC, whether called captions or subtitles, they would have to provide "synchronized visual and/or text alternative for both speech and non-speech audio information needed to understand the media content"  where non-speech information includes things such as "sound effects, music, laughter, speaker identification and 
14:35:33 <Zakim> -Bruce_Bailey
14:35:35 <Andi> location."/
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14:38:38 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
14:39:27 <Zakim> +Bruce_Bailey
14:42:45 <MaryJo> Alex: We may wan to clarify this captioning is only for one-way, not two-way or multi-way conversations. 
14:42:59 <Andi> s/wan/want/
14:43:13 <Zakim> +Pierce_Crowell
14:43:16 <MaryJo> AS: This is not for phone conversations.
14:43:25 <mapluke> q+
14:43:34 <Andi> ack alex
14:44:29 <Andi> ack mapluke
14:46:22 <Alex_> q+
14:46:34 <Pierce> Pierce has joined #wcag2ict
14:47:54 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:47:56 <MaryJo> Mike: A note explicitly stating that phone conversations does not apply might be useful.
14:47:57 <Andi> ack alex
14:48:12 <MaryJo> AH: Be careful about including guidance regarding uses of ICT.  We can't do any editing on the intent part of the SC. 
14:48:23 <MaryJo> AH: If it isn't clear in the intent that it applies only to one-way, we shouldn't add it.
14:48:54 <mapluke> q+
14:48:59 <Andi> ack gregg
14:49:07 <MaryJo> Alex: Intent of 1.2.4 provides only webcast examples that are one-way, but doesn't explicitly state it is only for one-way.
14:50:37 <MaryJo> GV: Webinars would be covered, but what other people are saying is not covered. Thinks what we have is sufficient.
14:51:47 <greggvanderheiden> q+
14:51:51 <Pierce> +q
14:52:04 <Pierce> -q
14:53:02 <Pierce> +q
14:53:23 <Pierce> -q
14:53:37 <greggvanderheiden> q-
14:53:38 <Andi> action: Alex to propose a Note to 1.2.4 to address his concern about two-way conversations
14:53:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-4 - Propose a Note to 1.2.4 to address his concern about two-way conversations [on Alex Li - due 2012-06-12].
14:53:39 <MaryJo> AS: Let's keep resolution as is, and keep this item open so Alex can take an action item to draft a note to address his concerns about 2-way conversation.
14:53:44 <Andi> ack mapluke
14:54:27 <MaryJo> Alex: Will send note to the email list.
14:55:38 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
14:56:12 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/MAY292012/results#xq11
14:56:56 <mapluke> q+
14:58:38 <Andi> ack mapluke
14:58:40 <MaryJo> GV: Whether something should apply or not based on the platform, is something that should be handled at a higher level
14:59:19 <MaryJo> Mike: Thinks that Peter's and Loic's issues have been addressed.
15:00:16 <MaryJo> Andi RESOLUTION: Accept 1.2.5 as amended without the 2nd paragraph.
15:00:25 <Andi> s/Andi//
15:00:52 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/MAY292012/results#xq12
15:02:35 <MaryJo> AS: Alex made a good point that this doesn't make sense to apply to something like a file save dialog.
15:06:13 <MaryJo> AS: Sometimes there are systems that automatically save as you work with the document, would this be non-compliant?
15:07:10 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
15:08:39 <MaryJo> GV: This SC is meant more for larger data sets, but doesn't explicitly say so.  
15:08:51 <MaryJo> GV: Didn't really mean for this to apply to deleting a single word or set of words from a document. 
15:09:25 <MaryJo> GV: Should send a note to WCAG to make this SC clearer - there is a problem with interpretation. 
15:09:33 <mapluke> q+
15:09:44 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wcag2ict
15:10:25 <Andi> action: Gregg to take issue to WCAG regarding 3.3.4 intent - did not intend that every web app that edits something has to have a confirmation before proceeding
15:10:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-5 - Take issue to WCAG regarding 3.3.4 intent - did not intend that every web app that edits something has to have a confirmation before proceeding [on Gregg Vanderheiden - due 2012-06-12].
15:10:34 <MaryJo> GV: Suggest this is put on hold and make a recommendation to WCAG working group to fix.
15:13:05 <Pierce> +q
15:13:05 <MaryJo> Al: We could add a note to document this situation and that we are seeking clarification from WCAG.
15:13:10 <Andi> ack mapluke
15:13:16 <greggvanderheiden> s/fix./fix the understanding document/
15:14:29 <Andi> ack pierce
15:16:19 <Andi> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN052012/results
15:17:06 <MaryJo> AS: We will just have Gregg handle the action item and keep the 3.3.4 SC open.
15:17:54 <greggvanderheiden> Pierce  what email address would you like it sent do?
15:18:01 <MaryJo> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/JUN052012/results#xq1
15:18:41 <Pierce> pierce.crowell@ssa.gov
15:19:19 <Pierce> +q
15:19:46 <MaryJo> AS: Gregg's proposal gets into the issue of accessibility supported.  The WCAG 2.0 intent seems to have a nice parallel to software platforms.
15:20:50 <Andi> ack pierce
15:21:00 <Andi> q+ gregg
15:21:04 <Andi> q+
15:21:12 <Andi> ack gregg
15:25:12 <Andi> q+ Al
15:25:18 <Andi> ack Andi
15:25:24 <MaryJo> AS: If we have a good mapping for what 'user agent' means for software, then the intent parallels well with the requirements.
15:26:23 <MaryJo> AS: If a platform does not provide a means to enlarge information, then this would be an onerous requirement for software to provide the zoom feature.
15:26:36 <greggvanderheiden> q=
15:26:50 <greggvanderheiden> q+
15:26:56 <Pierce> +q
15:27:04 <Andi> ack Al
15:27:14 <greggvanderheiden> ack a
15:28:49 <Andi> ack gregg
15:29:38 <MaryJo> gregg: If you are on a platform that doesn't support the function for accessibility, then you do have to provide the function in the software.  The question is 'is it accessible'?
15:31:25 <Andi> q+
15:31:29 <Andi> ack Pierce
15:33:08 <David> q+
15:33:15 <MaryJo> Pierce: Intent section lays out the options for meeting the SC.  Mobile world with hybridized development, there are gaps for platform support in this environment seem to be out of scope and unreasonable for the software to have to fill. 
15:33:22 <David> q-
15:34:09 <Zakim> -Al_Hoffman
15:35:12 <MaryJo> GV: WCAG is a measure, not a requirement. If you don't build it in and the application won't be accessible to people with disabilities. 
15:35:28 <MaryJo> AS: We'll continue this discussion through email.
15:35:29 <Zakim> -Alex_Li
15:35:30 <Zakim> -Bruce_Bailey
15:35:33 <Zakim> -Andi_Snow_Weaver
15:35:34 <Zakim> -Pierce_Crowell
15:35:35 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
15:35:38 <Zakim> -Cooper
15:35:41 <Zakim> -Mary_Jo_Mueller
15:35:43 <Zakim> -Mike_Pluke
15:35:43 <Zakim> -Janina_Sajka
15:35:46 <Zakim> -Gregg_Vanderheiden
15:35:48 <Zakim> -Judy
15:35:48 <Zakim> WAI_(WCAG2ICT)10:00AM has ended
15:35:48 <Zakim> Attendees were David_MacDonald, Cooper, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Al_Hoffman, Mary_Jo_Mueller, Alex_Li, Judy, Mike_Pluke, Bruce_Bailey, Janina, Janina_Sajka, Gregg_Vanderheiden,
15:35:48 <Zakim> ... Pierce_Crowell
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15:36:22 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
15:36:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/05-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi
19:18:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
19:18:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/06/05-wcag2ict-irc
19:20:45 <Andi> s/Survey starting with 1.2.4 </Survey starting with 1.2.4/
19:20:51 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
19:20:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/05-wcag2ict-minutes.html Andi