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22:41:21 <janina> zakim, room for 10?
22:41:22 <Zakim> ok, janina; conference Team_(pf)22:41Z scheduled with code 92473 (WAIPF) for 60 minutes until 2341Z
22:42:16 <silvia> silvia has joined #pf
22:42:19 <hober> hober has joined #pf
22:42:27 <Zakim> Team_(pf)22:41Z has now started
22:42:34 <Zakim> +??P0
22:42:40 <Zakim> +JF
22:42:49 <JF> JF has joined #pf
22:43:06 <Zakim> +[Apple]
22:43:09 <Zakim> +silvia
22:43:11 <hober> Zakim, Apple has me
22:43:11 <Zakim> +hober; got it
22:43:18 <Zakim> + +1.408.823.aaaa
22:43:42 <silvia> zakim, who is here?
22:43:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P0, JF, [Apple], silvia, +1.408.823.aaaa
22:43:43 <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
22:43:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see JF, hober, silvia, RRSAgent, Zakim, MichaelC, richardschwerdtfe, janina, trackbot
22:44:03 <hober> Zakim, ??P0 is janina
22:44:03 <Zakim> +janina; got it
22:44:52 <janina> zakim, aaaa is Eric
22:44:52 <Zakim> +Eric; got it
22:44:57 <silvia> zakim, ??P0 is Janina_Sajka
22:44:57 <Zakim> I already had ??P0 as janina, silvia
22:45:09 <silvia> zakim, who is here?
22:45:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see janina, JF, [Apple], silvia, Eric
22:45:10 <Zakim> [Apple] has hober
22:45:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see JF, hober, silvia, RRSAgent, Zakim, MichaelC, richardschwerdtfe, janina, trackbot
22:45:12 <eric_carlson> eric_carlson has joined #pf
22:45:45 <janina> scribe: janina
22:45:53 <janina> Chair: jf
22:46:10 <janina> jf: Really one agendum, to see whether we can get to a single proposal on transcript
22:46:50 <janina> silvia: We're optimizing to be able to display in the video -- so the video player can expose transcript
22:47:14 <janina> silvia: Not found a player that does that
22:47:32 <janina> q+ to ask where captions, subtitles, and video descriptions will be made available?
22:48:18 <janina> silvia: Would be happy to know about examples or to hear that that's what someone is planning to do
22:49:13 <janina> jf: When the nonvisual player gets to the video element they get a set of available media to run. If we put transcript outside that list that's a problem
22:49:32 <silvia> s/display in the video/display in the video controls/
22:50:09 <janina> jf: If there's another way, good. But we can't simply rely on a stand-alone button.
22:50:55 <silvia> q+ (an answer)
22:51:20 <janina> jf: We already expect authors will try to put content exclusively for screen readers into the page--and we need to provide a way to do that that will be straight forward
22:52:29 <janina> ack janina
22:52:29 <Zakim> janina, you wanted to ask where captions, subtitles, and video descriptions will be made available?
22:52:45 <JF> ack (an
22:52:50 <janina> janina: important for a11y to present all alternative options in a set of options
22:52:52 <JF> ack answer)
22:53:09 <janina> silvia: assuming we want transcripts and also for sighted users ...
22:53:37 <janina> silvia: Trying to find example where transcript is displayed as part of player or on page somehow
22:54:11 <janina> silvia: Usually displayed below video player -- always a separate area
22:54:55 <eric_carlson> the Rachel Maddow player has a "transcript" button in the controller
22:55:36 <eric_carlson> q+
22:55:43 <JF> Q+
22:56:03 <janina> silvia: I guess that's the only one i've seen
22:56:16 <JF> ack eric
22:56:21 <janina> eric: there's no chance we will comment on what we plan to do
22:57:05 <janina> eric: Not sure what this conversation is about. We can't possibly require a control
22:57:21 <janina> eric: If an author puts a transcriptinto a page, the author needs to decide whether or not it's a visible link
22:58:06 <janina> Silvia: I'm trying to separate blind user issues from sighted user issues. They are very different.
22:59:42 <janina> jf: Unhappy to hear "see it on screen" and such discussion ...
23:00:02 <janina> Silvia: I wanted to start by defining what the UI experience is for the sighted user
23:00:05 <eric_carlson> q+
23:00:11 <janina> ack jf
23:00:39 <janina> jf: We need the dom node to be able to enumerate available alternative media
23:00:47 <janina> silvia: I think you're agreeing with me
23:01:07 <janina> eric: as long as there's a programatic association, that's all we need to satisfy the a11y use case
23:01:32 <janina> eric: But, it's unlikely there will be a control in the default controls that makes sense and works well for users
23:01:48 <janina> eric: Don't want a button that only shows up when there's a transcript on a different page
23:02:16 <janina> jf: agree
23:02:59 <hober> q+
23:03:04 <janina> jf: would be nice to have a standardized way that could be implemented in controls, that an encounteered transcript would bring up that button
23:03:18 <JF> Q?
23:03:24 <JF> ack eric
23:03:24 <janina> eric: agree it would be nice, but don't find it likely to come up with how to make that work in a manner that wasn't confusing
23:03:27 <janina> q?
23:03:43 <silvia> q+
23:03:52 <janina> eric: It's a much harder problem than it might seem at first glance
23:04:07 <janina> ted: I think it would be a mistake to have normative requirements in either direction.
23:04:27 <janina> ted: There's the opportunity for all of this UI if we provide programmatic association.
23:04:41 <janina> jf: So, perhaps we have a lot of common ground
23:05:13 <janina> jf: My preference would be for native UI, but if we want to allow ongoing expirimentation, I suppose that's OK
23:05:42 <janina> jf: There's some concern that this a longdesc by proxy discussion, and don't want to take it there.
23:05:55 <janina> jf: Want the situation that one shouldn't have to go hunting for the transcript
23:06:23 <janina> jf: The linkage needs to be strong, i.e. "close proximity" was something Silvia had mentioned atone point. But how close is that?
23:07:06 <janina> jf: I can live without native UI controls
23:07:32 <janina> Silvia: If we agree native controls is not the reason for programmatic association
23:07:49 <janina> Silvia: My reason is that that's how I can make the screen reader aware that a transcript is available
23:08:40 <janina> jf: I could imagine a situation where the sighted user turns the transcript display on and off, similar to captions
23:08:41 <silvia> q+
23:08:59 <janina> ack hober
23:09:34 <janina> ack silvia
23:09:48 <janina> silvia: there's a big difference between transcripts and captions
23:10:36 <janina> silvia: If only the screen reader use case, we should rely on aria
23:11:12 <janina> jf: so you don't buy the use case I just presented?
23:14:31 <janina> janina: Object to describing caption display on the video as an intended design
23:15:11 <janina> jf: And the discussion is still all about display, but the not where it's rendered, it's about consuming the alternative media
23:16:25 <janina> jf: It's important to be able to choose how to consujme the content, primary and alternative
23:16:39 <janina> silvia: but won't be viewing the transcript and video at the same time as a blind user
23:16:51 <janina> janina: disagree
23:16:53 <janina> jf: disagree
23:17:43 <janina> silvia: don't think we have a disagreement that the blind user needs to know there's a transcript
23:17:51 <janina> jf: insist that's all users' need
23:18:23 <janina> silvia: if there's to be hiding of the transcript, it will be hidden from all
23:18:33 <janina> jf: why?
23:18:44 <hober> q+
23:18:58 <janina> jf: this is bigger than just blind users
23:19:33 <silvia> q?
23:19:45 <janina> q+ to say that a blind user might well read transcript while viewing the video--with a refreshable braille display
23:20:42 <janina> jf: my problem with Ted's proposal is that it's not sufficiently githtly integrated. We could end up with orphaned content, easily.
23:20:58 <janina> ted: two things ...
23:21:19 <janina> ted: agree it would be a mistake to create a programmatic association that assumes it's forever only for a11y
23:22:01 <janina> ted: goal should be that we want to bring sr user to parity with sighted user in access to transcript
23:22:20 <janina> ted: on the other hand, hiding the transcript makes it inaccessible to the sighted user
23:22:57 <janina> ted: aria-[something] would suggest only for a11y
23:23:13 <janina> ted: disagree about the copy-paste scenario ...
23:23:21 <Zakim> -silvia
23:23:31 <janina> ted: any method if transcript is elsewhere in the dom is going to be a problem
23:24:16 <janina> ted: reason the copy-paste is a problem is exactly because they're not contiguous in the dom necessarily
23:25:15 <janina> Silvia: 92473# you have that zakim code?
23:25:42 <Zakim> +silvia
23:25:57 <janina> jf: prefer a dedicated name because it will be much clearer than <div>
23:26:23 <janina> jf: It's not perfect, but it gets us to that
23:26:39 <janina> jf: a random container, iframe, etc., too much possibility to lose the association 
23:26:56 <silvia> q?
23:27:16 <janina> ack janina
23:27:16 <Zakim> janina, you wanted to say that a blind user might well read transcript while viewing the video--with a refreshable braille display
23:27:21 <janina> ack hober
23:27:27 <silvia> q+
23:28:01 <janina> silvia: sorry i dropped, want to summarize what i think i understand from the scribing ...
23:28:20 <janina> silvia: copy-paste will be difficult however
23:28:44 <janina> jf: so how best to minimize the problem?
23:29:30 <silvia> q+
23:29:59 <janina> jf: If you're looking at source and find something called <transcript>, much liklier to copy-paste all the way through </transcript> -- much more easily than div plus id, etc
23:30:23 <janina> silvia: may help slightly for copy-past issue
23:30:36 <janina> silvia: want to try and bil down to the core issues
23:31:01 <janina> silvia: #1 when visible on page -- only people who want to hear it at the point of getting to the video
23:31:45 <janina> silvia: #2 When we want to make sure that copying the video includes copying the transcript -- perhaps somehow it's in the context menu?
23:32:45 <janina> silvia: could even be a hash offset if transcript is right on page
23:33:13 <janina> silvia: #3 is the interactive transcript -- believe we need an element for that
23:33:56 <janina> ted: I agree interactive transcripts are really interesting, but believe it's premature to specify a mechanism for them
23:33:57 <eric_carlson> +10
23:34:34 <janina> jf: so a landmark element
23:34:45 <janina> ted: but people can expiriment without the landmark
23:35:01 <janina> silvia: it's just linking to a vtt file
23:35:21 <janina> ted: constraining by minting an element called transcript
23:35:34 <janina> ted: if we create an element, it should do something -- not just be a placeholder
23:35:49 <janina> jf: want to etease this apart
23:36:08 <janina> jf: what's the downside if it is only a placeholder
23:36:50 <janina> jf: but there is the available scenario that we do know that copy-paste reduces orphaning problem
23:36:55 <janina> ted: reduces it only slightly
23:37:01 <janina> jf: something is better than nothing, no?
23:37:09 <silvia> <transcript mediagroup="g1">
23:37:10 <silvia>   <track src="transcript.vtt" srclang="de">
23:37:10 <silvia>  <track src="transcript.vtt" srclang="en">
23:37:10 <silvia> </transcript>
23:37:24 <janina> jf: e.g. aside -- it's an old stage play thing
23:37:38 <silvia> <video mediagroup="g1" src=video controls></video>
23:37:48 <silvia> +
23:37:48 <janina> jf: if html.next wants to layer additional, great
23:37:53 <silvia> q+
23:38:11 <janina> q+ to ask whether there's any doubt we're going to more and more use of transcript
23:38:16 <janina> ack silvia
23:38:53 <eric_carlson> q+
23:39:29 <JF> ack janina
23:39:29 <Zakim> janina, you wanted to ask whether there's any doubt we're going to more and more use of transcript
23:40:26 <janina> janina: suggest transcript very powerful for navigation and indexing especially
23:40:28 <JF> Q+
23:40:29 <silvia> q+
23:40:35 <JF> ack eric
23:40:39 <janina> eric: agree, but disagree that we create problems by not standardizing some of this now
23:41:16 <janina> eric: think it unlikely with time left for html 5.0 that we can sufficiently well define how this element should behave
23:41:29 <janina> eric: it's complex yet subtle behavior
23:41:41 <janina> eric: a high chance we'll spec something incorrectly
23:42:02 <janina> eric: when media was first added, it's very different now because it took time to get it all worked out
23:42:11 <janina> eric: as it happened, i implemented ev3ry version on the way
23:42:49 <janina> eric: pointin to the live examples currently on the web, done with flash, points out that it is doable now
23:42:56 <janina> eric: suggest it can be scripted now
23:43:10 <janina> eric: but if we spec it now we will not get it right
23:43:27 <janina> eric: and we'll be stuck with it--so strongly object to shoe-horning it in at this point
23:44:12 <janina> jf: q: if we spec'd only as landmark but leaves the door open 
23:44:15 <janina> I lost audio
23:44:53 <silvia> ted: creating a placeholder element will close the door on some things
23:45:13 <silvia> eric: the element has to have a behaviour associated
23:45:19 <silvia> q?
23:46:21 <silvia> eric: I can't change the behaviour of a created element
23:46:24 <janina> I can't get back in
23:46:27 <silvia> ack JF
23:46:41 <silvia> JF: how do I get around the orphaning problem?
23:46:41 <janina> I'll follow irc
23:48:51 <JF> scribe: JF
23:49:12 <janina> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
23:49:27 <JF> EG: there are differences in the way Interactive Transcripts (ITS for here on in) render
23:49:49 <JF> SP: there differences are in the WebVTT cues
23:50:02 <JF> there are styling idfferences
23:50:32 <JF> believe we can get around that by starting with basic interactivity and then build upon that
23:50:36 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
23:50:42 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
23:50:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/05-pf-minutes.html janina
23:50:50 <JF> but agree that we shouldn't start out with half-sorted solutions
23:51:10 <JF> so can likely defer that to HTML.next
23:51:34 <JF> SP: so if we can live with that, we can close the ITS discussion for now
23:51:42 <silvia> silvia: let's first finalize the interactive transcript discussion
23:52:01 <JF> EC: agree, and we need to do more than just say we will defer it to HTML.next, we need to start the discussion now
23:52:20 <silvia> silvia: I think we could create a basic <transcript> element now and finalize more functionality in html.next, but I appreciate that we might now want to put a semi-done work into HTML5
23:52:25 <JF> so taht we can start to hone in on what we mean, and experiments can start
23:52:35 <JF> s/taht/that/
23:52:46 <silvia> silvia: I can personally live with pointing ppl at JS libraries for this problem for now and solving it properly in  HTML.next
23:53:02 <hober> q+
23:53:08 <silvia> EC: let's start discussing, but not put it into HTML5
23:53:25 <JF> ack silvia
23:53:56 <JF> SP want to ensure that we are in agreement about defering ITS until later
23:54:01 <silvia> silvia: is Janina in agreement with moving the interactive transcript problem to HTML.next?
23:54:05 <JF> Janina, are you comfortable with that as well?
23:55:42 <JF> ?me telepathy...
23:55:53 <JF> s/?me telepathy...//
23:56:22 <silvia> q?
23:57:22 <silvia> q+
23:57:54 <JF> ack hober
23:58:37 <silvia> q-
23:59:56 <silvia> q+
00:00:32 <JF> zakim, whos here?
00:00:32 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, JF.
00:00:40 <silvia> ted: my problem with a URL on the video element is that that would duplicate URLS when we have it on-page as well
00:00:56 <janina> I can live with moving interactive to .next
00:01:04 <Zakim> -[Apple]
00:03:24 <silvia> ted: another problem is that the page's url may not be defined at the time of creation of the page, so it's fragile
00:03:47 <silvia> ted: have to leave, sorry
00:05:37 <silvia> JF: shall we stop here, go back to email and meet again
00:05:53 <silvia> eric/silvia: we've made progress, so yes
00:05:56 <janina> I'll work with Michael to move these minutes to the TF page
00:06:16 <silvia> JF: hoping to get more time out of the chairs so we can resolve this
00:08:23 <Zakim> -Eric
00:08:26 <Zakim> -silvia
00:08:28 <Zakim> -JF
00:08:34 <janina> rrsagent make minutes
00:08:35 <silvia> JF: maybe meet this week Friday
00:08:43 <janina> Yes. 
00:08:51 <silvia> silvia: I'll write a summary email, please chip into the discussion
00:13:29 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, janina, in Team_(pf)22:41Z
00:13:30 <Zakim> Team_(pf)22:41Z has ended
00:13:30 <Zakim> Attendees were JF, silvia, hober, +1.408.823.aaaa, janina, Eric
00:17:31 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
00:17:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/05-pf-minutes.html janina
00:17:37 <janina> zakim, bye
00:17:37 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pf
00:17:47 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
00:17:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/06/05-pf-minutes.html janina
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