15:11:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #RDB2RDF
15:11:26 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/05/08-RDB2RDF-irc
15:11:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:11:28 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #RDB2RDF
15:11:30 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7322733
15:11:30 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 49 minutes
15:11:31 <trackbot> Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:11:31 <trackbot> Date: 08 May 2012
15:54:27 <Ashok> Ashok has joined #rdb2rdf
15:54:47 <Ashok> chair: Ashok
15:56:53 <boris> boris has joined #rdb2rdf
15:57:12 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has now started
15:57:19 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
15:58:01 <dmcneil> dmcneil has joined #RDB2RDF
15:58:26 <Zakim> +dmcneil
16:00:37 <nunolopes> nunolopes has joined #rdb2rdf
16:00:39 <Zakim> +??P27
16:01:11 <boris> zakim, ??P27 is me
16:01:11 <Zakim> +boris; got it
16:01:13 <Zakim> +[OpenLink]
16:01:18 <Zakim> +??P28
16:01:22 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:01:22 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:01:23 <Zakim> +Ivan
16:01:24 <MacTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me
16:01:24 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:01:26 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:01:26 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:02:02 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
16:02:04 <nunolopes> Zakim, who's here?
16:02:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ashok_Malhotra, dmcneil, boris, MacTed (muted), ??P28, Ivan, mhausenblas
16:02:06 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:02:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see nunolopes, dmcneil, boris, Ashok, Zakim, RRSAgent, betehess, cygri, LeeF, MacTed, ivan, trackbot, ericP
16:02:13 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me
16:02:13 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
16:02:17 <nunolopes> Zakim, P28 is me
16:02:17 <Zakim> sorry, nunolopes, I do not recognize a party named 'P28'
16:02:34 <nunolopes> Zakim, ??P28 is me
16:02:34 <Zakim> +nunolopes; got it
16:03:05 <Zakim> +Souri
16:03:11 <Seema> Seema has joined #rdb2rdf
16:03:57 <Ashok> zakim, pick a victim
16:03:57 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose cygri
16:03:59 <Zakim> +seema
16:04:09 <nunolopes> Zakim, mute me
16:04:09 <Zakim> nunolopes should now be muted
16:04:21 <boris> I can scribe
16:04:40 <boris> scribenick boris
16:05:01 <boris> TOPIC : Aprove minutes of last meeting
16:05:21 <boris> http://www.w3.org/2012/05/01-RDB2RDF-minutes.html
16:05:21 <cygri> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2012May/0054.html
16:05:59 <boris> RESOLUTION: Last telecon minutes approved
16:06:17 <Zakim> + +2714aaaa
16:06:18 <boris> TOPIC: Implementability for tables w/o primary key - DM
16:06:40 <boris> Ashok: there are a few mails about this
16:06:51 <boris> ... also proposal from Ivan
16:07:32 <boris> ... please other members of the group please speak about this ....
16:07:53 <boris> ... other possibility is to do nothing
16:07:58 <Marcelo> Marcelo has joined #rdb2rdf
16:08:17 <boris> q?
16:08:21 <Zakim> +EricP
16:08:28 <cygri> q+
16:08:45 <juansequeda> juansequeda has joined #rdb2rdf
16:08:52 <boris> ack cygri
16:08:55 <Zakim> +juansequeda
16:09:18 <boris> cygri: summarizes this issue from his perspective
16:09:33 <ivan> zakim, mute me
16:09:33 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
16:09:37 <boris> ... issue1 : DM hard to implement in some situations
16:09:58 <boris> ... issue2 : not compatible with R2RML
16:10:30 <boris> ... Richard is happy with the solution of issue1
16:11:06 <boris> issue2: DM can be expressed in R2RML ...
16:11:16 <boris> ... in tables without PK
16:11:43 <boris> ... one option is do nothing
16:11:48 <boris> .... other is document it
16:12:05 <boris> ... another option just acknowledge
16:12:19 <Ashok> s/..../.../
16:12:30 <boris> ... other option is fix the incompability from R2RML or DM
16:12:41 <boris> ... Richard suggest to do it from the R2RML
16:13:23 <boris> ... this is brand new feature, no other rdb2rdf are able to this
16:13:46 <boris> ... we do no't have time to this ....
16:14:09 <boris> ... fixing from the DM
16:14:47 <boris> ... in long run ...we have to do it in R2RML
16:15:28 <boris> Ashok: is the wording (of Ivan) ok to fix you
16:15:54 <boris> cygri: ... no
16:16:00 <juansequeda> It is not a corner case if we consider Views!
16:16:26 <Zakim> -nunolopes
16:16:27 <boris> ... as R2RML implementor, we want to have a DM ... 
16:16:54 <Zakim> +??P28
16:17:00 <boris> ... the purpose of DM is provide support to R2RML
16:17:07 <nunolopes> Zakim, ??P28 is me
16:17:07 <Zakim> +nunolopes; got it
16:17:15 <boris> ... current DM behaves different in some corner cases
16:17:30 <nunolopes> Zakim, mute me
16:17:30 <Zakim> nunolopes should now be muted
16:17:42 <boris> ... people is asking if we are implementing DM and R2RML
16:17:54 <boris> ... we cannot implement the current DM spec
16:18:30 <boris> Ashok: so, we have to add a feature to DM?
16:18:52 <boris> cygri: if we'll fix in R2RML is a new feature
16:18:59 <ivan> q+
16:19:17 <boris> .... if we'll fix in DM we have to change the wording .... is not so mich
16:19:22 <boris> s/mich/much
16:19:40 <boris> ... it's so not clean solution ...
16:20:23 <boris> Ashok: any comments from the group?
16:20:27 <ericP> q+ to outline the use cases
16:20:44 <ivan> ack ivan 
16:21:23 <boris> ivan: the way of looking to the DM is no the complete picture, Richard
16:21:45 <boris> ... it's not 100% necessarily
16:22:00 <Ashok> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:22:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ashok_Malhotra, dmcneil, boris, MacTed (muted), Ivan, cygri, Souri, seema, +2714aaaa, EricP, juansequeda, nunolopes (muted)
16:22:07 <boris> ... if we follow your proposal, there'll be several versions of the DM
16:22:32 <Ashok> Who is 2714444?
16:22:48 <boris> ... the only way to do that is going beyond to that propose ... DM is not using fresh bnode labels
16:22:51 <cygri> q+ to say we'll get multiple versions of the DM *anyways* if we don't fix it
16:23:03 <Ashok> Sorry, 2714@@@@ ?
16:23:20 <boris> ... other way is to introduce a fuzziness, but if we later fix R2RML, current DM will be invalid in the future
16:23:25 <boris> ... this is dangerous
16:24:17 <juansequeda> I'm curious to hear Souri and Seema
16:24:19 <Marcelo> 2714444 is Marcelo
16:24:21 <Souri> q+
16:24:23 <ericP> mysql --user=genome --host=genome-mysql.cse.ucsc.edu -A
16:24:29 <boris> ericP: let's a use case
16:24:40 <ericP> show create table uniProt.gene;
16:24:44 <Ashok> zakim, 2714@@@@ is marcelo
16:24:44 <Zakim> sorry, Ashok, I do not recognize a party named '2714@@@@'
16:25:01 <boris> .... showing the use case ...
16:25:29 <boris> ... current R2RML does not capture that table ... 
16:25:48 <Ashok> q?
16:25:49 <boris> ... not cardinality repeated rows
16:25:58 <boris> ... DM captures it ...
16:25:59 <Ashok> ack next
16:26:01 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to outline the use cases
16:26:30 <boris> ... start from DM and "changed" to R2RML
16:27:14 <boris> Souri: DM purpose is a kind of starting point for R2RML ....
16:27:37 <juansequeda> but not all databases have row ids
16:28:02 <boris> ... if a table doesn't a PK, if we are doing DM ... if we are able to capture the row number (well it depends on the DBMS) ... we capture the unique id
16:28:32 <juansequeda> q+
16:28:35 <Ashok> Juan, you can always join a column with an ascending number
16:28:36 <boris> ... why do we automatically convert that into a column
16:28:56 <boris> ... it can work in Oracle, probably difficult in other dbms
16:29:13 <boris> ... we can do a Bnode, or URI ... it's different issue
16:29:32 <boris> juansequeda: Souri's proposal is similar to Juan/richard proposal
16:29:40 <boris> ... initial proposal
16:29:58 <Souri> please note: I am talking about ROWNUM in Oracle DB, not ROWID (b/c view does not have ROWID)
16:30:18 <boris> cygri: ROWNUM unless you materialize
16:30:50 <boris> ... ROWNUM doesn't work without fetching the table
16:31:00 <Souri> q+
16:31:12 <boris> ... ROWNUM changes every time, so it doesn't work in general case
16:31:12 <Ashok> ack cygri
16:31:12 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to say we'll get multiple versions of the DM *anyways* if we don't fix it
16:31:22 <boris> ... other dbms do not have ROWID
16:31:23 <Ashok> ack next
16:31:28 <Ashok> ack next
16:31:43 <boris> ... in Oracle is easy ...but in other dbms is not the case
16:31:56 <boris> ... also postgress is also possible
16:32:08 <boris> ... regarding ericP comments
16:32:09 <Souri> example=> select rownum, e.* from EMP e;
16:32:18 <Zakim> -nunolopes
16:32:34 <boris> ... R2RML doesn't change the semantics of the db, is not issue of the mapping not of the language
16:33:01 <Zakim> + +353852aabb
16:33:04 <boris> s/is not issue of/is issue of
16:33:13 <nunolopes> Zakim, aabb is me
16:33:13 <Zakim> +nunolopes; got it
16:33:23 <nunolopes> Zakim, mute me
16:33:23 <Zakim> nunolopes should now be muted
16:33:33 <boris> ... DM reflects what is on the database, R2RML is what you get from it ...
16:34:09 <boris> ... by allowing the alternative behaviour of the DM, there won't be use case for R2RML ... Richard is not ok with this
16:34:42 <ericP> =IOUs=
16:34:44 <ericP> Bob 20
16:34:46 <boris> ... table no pk no duplicate row, I can write an R2RML that captures the semantics of that and matches the DM
16:34:46 <ericP> Bob 10
16:35:25 <boris> ... there'll be a use case for this ... 
16:35:44 <boris> ... regarding the comment of having 2 versions of the DM
16:35:46 <ericP> an R2RML mapping which presumes cardinality of 1 could use -{name}-{amount} can capture all of the rows
16:36:33 <MacTed> can we strawpoll on the two proposals, as shown in the agenda?
16:36:49 <boris> ... it would be worth to have default mapping ... having to fork w3c spec in order to be compatible with the other w3c pec is worse 
16:36:59 <boris> s/ pec/ spec
16:37:31 <MacTed> (or revised to capture all the conversation on the list, which I think did modify both...)
16:37:32 <boris> ... comment about how it is now in the spec
16:37:36 <ericP> q+ (of course)
16:37:43 <ericP> q- (of course)
16:37:53 <ericP> q+
16:38:02 <Souri> q+
16:38:55 <boris> ericP: a table without a unique key ... but there is one ....
16:39:09 <Ashok> ack next
16:39:37 <boris> ... there should be a warning if it's going to create duplicate row
16:40:17 <boris> ... spec that remove some parts of the previous specs exist
16:40:36 <boris> ... the solution is cheap ... 
16:40:52 <Souri> Example of deterministic association between ROWNUM and row-content (in Oracle DB): select rownum erownum, e.* from EMP e order by e.empno, e.ename, e.job, e.mgr, e.hiredate, e.sal, e.comm, e.deptno;
16:41:05 <boris> Souri: showing an example how to do it in Oracle
16:41:41 <boris> ... ROWNUM is always there, view, table
16:42:27 <boris> ... for some users can go ahead and create a ROWNUM ... 
16:42:32 <cygri> souri, ROWNUM does not work.
16:42:59 <boris> ... this is deterministic ... 
16:43:14 <boris> ... if we have duplicate rows there won't be no problem
16:43:33 <boris> Ashok: we have 2 positions
16:43:50 <Souri> Richard, please give an example where ROWNUM does not work
16:43:56 <boris> ... position 1. Ivan wording ...
16:44:17 <boris> ... position 2. to modify the DM 
16:44:36 <cygri> souri, 2-row table, join the table onto itself. you end up with 4 rows, but only 2 blank nodes. ROWNUM will give you 4 values and no way to work out which are the same
16:45:10 <boris> Ashok: could you leave with position 1.?
16:45:10 <ericP> +1
16:45:13 <Souri> ROWNUM corresponds to the result rows only
16:45:17 <ivan> +1 (of course…)
16:45:17 <cygri> -1
16:45:19 <MacTed> s/leave with/live with/
16:45:22 <MacTed> +1
16:45:27 <Marcelo> +1
16:45:35 <Souri> +1
16:45:49 <Seema> +1
16:45:52 <boris> juansequeda: please paste Ivan wording
16:45:52 <ivan> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2012May/0054.html
16:46:12 <Zakim> +nunolopes.a
16:46:38 <Ashok> zakim, who is on the phone
16:46:38 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', Ashok
16:46:38 <boris> ericP: explaining Ivan wording ... 
16:46:48 <Souri> ROWNUM does not care about the nature of the query, only the order in which results are coming out
16:47:02 <Ashok> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:47:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ashok_Malhotra, dmcneil, boris, MacTed (muted), Ivan, cygri, Souri, seema, +2714aaaa, EricP, juansequeda, nunolopes (muted), nunolopes.a
16:47:03 <MacTed> I'm sorry, I didn't catch that Agenda order was reverse of presentation now  :-(
16:47:18 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:47:18 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:47:20 <juansequeda> -1
16:47:41 <MacTed> -1
16:47:52 <boris> ... option 1. Agenda option B
16:48:17 <boris> s/1./ 1 <->
16:48:22 <cygri> souri, i'll send an example via email
16:48:49 <boris> option 2. <-> Agenda option A
16:49:03 <Ashok> Nuno -1
16:49:30 <nunolopes> Zakim, mute me
16:49:30 <Zakim> nunolopes was already muted, nunolopes
16:49:33 <boris> Marcelo: I can live with the 2 options ...
16:50:17 <cygri> q+
16:50:31 <Souri> ack me
16:50:35 <boris> Ashok, 4 people with -1
16:50:41 <nunolopes> Zakim, nunolopes.a is me
16:50:41 <Zakim> +nunolopes; got it
16:50:48 <nunolopes> Zakim, mute me
16:50:48 <Zakim> nunolopes was already muted, nunolopes
16:50:51 <cygri> q-
16:51:12 <boris> MacTed: rephrase the options
16:51:14 <MacTed> STRAWPOLL:  who can live with A, B, or AorB, as in the agenda?
16:51:19 <MacTed> +A
16:51:24 <ericP> +B
16:51:41 <Ashok> Ashok +B
16:51:42 <Marcelo> AorB
16:51:45 <ivan> +B
16:51:50 <Seema> AorB
16:51:52 <cygri> +A
16:51:59 <boris> AorB
16:51:59 <nunolopes> +A
16:52:00 <juansequeda> +A
16:52:21 <Souri> +AB
16:52:42 <boris> MacTed; 6 for A (include AB)
16:52:51 <nunolopes> Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:52:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ashok_Malhotra, dmcneil, boris, MacTed, Ivan, cygri, Souri, seema, +2714aaaa, EricP, juansequeda, nunolopes (muted), nunolopes.aa
16:52:52 <boris> s/MacTed;/MacTed:
16:53:33 <boris> Ashok: how are we going to do some progress on this?
16:53:34 <ericP> q+ to propose using use cases to illustrate our choices
16:53:44 <Marcelo> zakim, 2714aaaa is me
16:53:44 <Zakim> sorry, Marcelo, I do not recognize a party named '2714aaaa'
16:54:11 <Marcelo> zakim, aaaa is me
16:54:11 <Zakim> +Marcelo; got it
16:54:30 <boris> ericP: let's figure out scenarios with the text of the specs ...
16:54:37 <Marcelo> zakim, who's on the phone?
16:54:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ashok_Malhotra, dmcneil, boris, MacTed, Ivan, cygri, Souri, seema, Marcelo, EricP, juansequeda, nunolopes (muted), nunolopes.aa
16:54:38 <ivan> q+
16:54:45 <boris> Ashok: ericP volunteer to do that
16:54:45 <ivan> ack ericP 
16:54:45 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to propose using use cases to illustrate our choices
16:55:13 <Ashok> ack Ivan
16:55:23 <boris> ivan: more pesimistic than ericP/Richard
16:55:57 <boris> ... the only clean way forward it's to solve the technical issue in R2RML ...
16:56:35 <boris> ... it can be a trivial change or half-year change
16:56:56 <boris> ... we need a clear picture of what it means ...
16:57:04 <boris> ... we are already in second round LC
16:57:19 <cygri> q+
16:57:28 <boris> ... how much time we need to fix this in R2RML?
16:57:34 <Ashok> ack next
16:57:52 <boris> cygri: there's a proposal to change this on R2RML
16:58:10 <boris> ... this is not implemented in the current rdb2rdf implementations
16:58:16 <Souri> Suggestion: use rr:rownum in R2RML as a pseudocolumn (how it is generated will vary from DB to DB)
16:58:44 <boris> ... I dunno what it means in terms of time ....
16:58:50 <ericP> q+ to say that the quickest way to implement that is with a materialized R2RML implementation. two of those good enough?
16:59:30 <boris> ivan: we can have feedback for the current R2RML implementations in the near future ...
16:59:37 <boris> ... about this issue
17:00:07 <boris> ... probably before we finish LC 
17:00:51 <boris> Ashok: ask to R2RML editors to write in the spec the solution
17:01:11 <boris> ... and implementors to report this later on
17:01:54 <ericP> ack me
17:01:54 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say that the quickest way to implement that is with a materialized R2RML implementation. two of those good enough?
17:01:59 <Souri> I'd suggest rr:rownum as a pseudocolumn
17:02:00 <boris> ... two action items: ericp create the uses cases, and R2RML editors say how the R2RML spec will change
17:02:18 <Souri> q+
17:02:30 <boris> ericP: proposing a quick way of implement this
17:02:55 <cygri> q+
17:02:58 <boris> juansequeda: the issue is beacuse of the rewritting 
17:03:05 <Ashok> ack next
17:03:23 <boris> Souri: materializing is not going to help us ....
17:03:32 <boris> ... in this particular issue
17:03:51 <Ashok> ack next
17:03:56 <cygri> The mapping language defined by the WG will facilitate the development of several types of products. […] It could be used to generate a virtual mapping that could be queried using SPARQL and the SPARQL translated to SQL queries on the underlying relational data.
17:04:36 <boris> cygri: materialize option doesn't work for users ... 
17:05:01 <boris> ... explaining what is in the charter
17:05:32 <boris> ... propose a concrete change on the R2RML spec and implementors say what they think about that
17:05:46 <Zakim> -Marcelo
17:05:58 <boris> Ashok: Richard will be involved in both actions
17:06:06 <Souri> consider a new pseudocolumn: rr:rownum
17:06:07 <Marcelo> I have to leave ...
17:06:37 <boris> AShok: this week for doing the actions
17:06:52 <Zakim> -dmcneil
17:06:53 <Zakim> -Souri
17:06:54 <Zakim> -nunolopes.aa
17:06:55 <Zakim> -EricP
17:06:55 <Zakim> -seema
17:06:56 <Zakim> -juansequeda
17:06:56 <Zakim> -MacTed
17:06:57 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
17:06:59 <Zakim> -cygri
17:07:01 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:07:05 <Ashok> rrsagent, make logs public
17:07:08 <nunolopes> Zakim, who's here?
17:07:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see boris, nunolopes (muted)
17:07:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see nunolopes, dmcneil, boris, Ashok, Zakim, RRSAgent, betehess, cygri, MacTed, ivan, trackbot, ericP
17:07:16 <nunolopes> Zakim, disconnect nunolopes 
17:07:19 <nunolopes> :)
17:07:19 <Ashok> rrsagent, generate minutes
17:07:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/08-RDB2RDF-minutes.html Ashok
17:07:22 <Zakim> nunolopes is being disconnected
17:07:23 <Zakim> -nunolopes
17:07:41 <boris> rrsagent, make records public
17:08:33 <Ashok> Boris, Thank you for scribing ... good mimutes
17:09:26 <boris> you are welcome Ashok, however the list of Attendees is empty
17:09:34 <boris> I dunno how to fix it
17:09:40 <Ashok> present, Ashok, Ivan, Richard, Nuno, Boris, Marcelo, Ted, Juan, Souro, Seema, Marcelo, David
17:09:49 <Ashok> I will take care of it
17:10:05 <boris> ok, thanks Ashok
17:10:06 <Ashok> regrets, Michael
17:10:17 <Zakim> -boris
17:10:18 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has ended
17:10:18 <Zakim> Attendees were Ashok_Malhotra, dmcneil, boris, Ivan, MacTed, cygri, nunolopes, Souri, seema, +2714aaaa, EricP, juansequeda, +353852aabb, Marcelo
17:10:22 <Ashok> rrsagent generate minutes
17:10:32 <Ashok> rrsagent, generate minutes
17:10:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/08-RDB2RDF-minutes.html Ashok
17:12:45 <Ashok> present+ Ashok, Ivan, Richard, Nuno, Boris, Marcelo, Ted, Juan, Souri, Seema, Marcelo, David
17:13:09 <Ashok> regrets Michael
17:13:20 <Ashok> rrsagent, make minutes
17:13:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/05/08-RDB2RDF-minutes.html Ashok
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