IRC log of rdfa on 2012-04-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:18:30 [RRSAgent]

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13:18:30 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-rdfa-irc

13:18:32 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

13:18:32 [Zakim]

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13:18:34 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 7332

13:18:34 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 42 minutes

13:18:35 [trackbot]

Meeting: RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference

13:18:35 [trackbot]

Date: 26 April 2012

13:40:25 [MacTed]

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13:48:42 [Steven_]

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13:59:43 [niklasl]

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14:00:05 [Zakim]

SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started

14:00:13 [Zakim]

+??P5

14:00:20 [gkellogg]

zakim, I am ??P5

14:00:21 [Zakim]

+gkellogg; got it

14:00:32 [ivan]

zakim, dial ivan-voip

14:00:41 [Zakim]

ok, ivan; the call is being made

14:00:43 [Zakim]

+Ivan

14:01:14 [Zakim]

+??P11

14:01:16 [niklasl]

zakim, I am ??P11

14:01:16 [Zakim]

+??P15

14:01:16 [manu1]

zakim, I am ??P11

14:01:20 [Steven_]

Steven_ has joined #rdfa

14:01:23 [Zakim]

+niklasl; got it

14:01:24 [Zakim]

sorry, manu1, I do not see a party named '??P11'

14:01:29 [manu1]

zakim, I am ??P15

14:01:38 [Zakim]

+manu1; got it

14:01:54 [Zakim]

+??P13

14:02:41 [Zakim]

+OpenLink_Software

14:02:53 [MacTed]

Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

14:02:54 [Zakim]

+MacTed; got it

14:02:56 [MacTed]

Zakim, mute me

14:03:06 [Zakim]

MacTed should now be muted

14:04:20 [Zakim]

+McCarron

14:04:29 [Zakim]

+??P26

14:04:45 [Steven_]

zakim, I am ??P26

14:04:45 [Zakim]

+Steven_; got it

14:06:16 [ShaneM]

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14:06:35 [ShaneM]

zakim, who is here?

14:06:35 [Zakim]

On the phone I see gkellogg, Ivan, niklasl, manu1, ??P13, MacTed (muted), McCarron, Steven_

14:06:38 [Zakim]

On IRC I see ShaneM, Steven_, niklasl, MacTed, Zakim, RRSAgent, trackbot, ivan, manu, manu1, gkellogg

14:06:44 [ShaneM]

zakim, McCarron is ShaneM

14:06:44 [Zakim]

+ShaneM; got it

14:10:20 [MacTed]

Zakim, unmute me

14:10:20 [Zakim]

MacTed should no longer be muted

14:10:45 [manu1]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2012Apr/0061.html

14:10:55 [ivan]

scribenick: ivan

14:11:01 [ivan]

scribe: ivan

14:11:45 [niklasl]

+1

14:13:06 [scor]

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14:13:37 [niklasl]

Issue: fix regexp in the xsd:simpleType definition of CURIE (it's too lax, matching e.g. "pfx://abc")

14:13:37 [trackbot]

Created ISSUE-138 - Fix regexp in the xsd:simpleType definition of CURIE (it's too lax, matching e.g. "pfx://abc") ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/138/edit .

14:13:56 [manu1]

Topic: High-level Overview of May and June re: RDFa 1.1

14:14:59 [Steven]

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14:15:47 [ivan]

manu: we try to move to pr, as long as the issues for today do not create a problem

14:15:59 [ivan]

… we want to make an announcement in semtech on the rec publications

14:16:06 [ivan]

q+

14:16:15 [manu1]

ack ivan

14:16:30 [manu1]

ivan: To make it very clear - this means that we have to publish the PR in a week.

14:17:16 [manu1]

ivan: procedural description - we have to have a transition call - I have already started to find a time to do it. We have to start the process of members voting - at the minimum, 4 weeks.

14:17:40 [manu1]

ivan: If we start the process formally, on Thursday, it will end on the Thursday before the conference. If there are no objections during the voting period, moving to REC becomes an automatic thing.

14:17:54 [manu1]

ivan: We can publish the REC the Tuesday after... very tight schedule.

14:18:21 [Steven_]

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14:18:28 [manu1]

ivan: We can shift a little bit because the conference ends on Thursday, we could formally announce on Thursday... but that's not ideal - let's try for Tuesday of the conference.

14:18:39 [ivan]

manu1: any question on the process?

14:18:41 [ivan]

....

14:18:43 [ivan]

....

14:18:45 [ivan]

….....

14:18:46 [ivan]

…………..

14:18:51 [ivan]

(none)

14:18:54 [manu1]

Topic: Exiting Candidate Recommendation Phase

14:19:19 [ivan]

manu1: we have some editorial issues and some open issues that we have

14:19:19 [manu1]

http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/open

14:19:30 [ivan]

… deal first with what affects the rec document

14:19:38 [ivan]

issue-138?

14:19:38 [trackbot]

ISSUE-138 -- Fix regexp in the xsd:simpleType definition of CURIE (it's too lax, matching e.g. "pfx://abc") -- open

14:19:38 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/138

14:20:14 [ivan]

manu1: niklas, do you have an alternative regex?

14:20:26 [ivan]

… what we could do is to resolve to fix the reges

14:20:30 [ivan]

s/reges/regex/

14:20:59 [niklasl]

Current CURIE simpleType pattern: (([\i-[:]][\c-[:]]*)?:)?[^\s]+

14:21:06 [ivan]

ShaneM: i do not know whether the regex is wrong

14:21:12 [ivan]

q+

14:21:15 [manu1]

ack ivan

14:21:22 [niklasl]

Should not match curie://path

14:21:33 [manu1]

ivan: Where does this regex come from? Does it come from the xsd:simpleType definition?

14:22:00 [ivan]

shane: ivan. you are wrong!

14:22:31 [ivan]

ShaneM: it is the definition in 8.1, which is informative

14:22:38 [ivan]

… i.e., we can change it the way we want...

14:23:17 [ivan]

ShaneM: it is too lax right now, and what is the problem with that?

14:23:45 [ivan]

niklasl: this is not a correct one, we decided that curie-s should be different

14:24:04 [manu1]

PROPOSAL: Fix the regular expression for the definition of a CURIE in RDFa Core 1.1, Appendix A.1 to not allow "://" as a valid CURIE.

14:24:08 [ivan]

+1

14:24:08 [manu1]

+1

14:24:10 [ShaneM]

+1

14:24:11 [niklasl]

+1

14:24:18 [gkellogg]

+1

14:24:18 [Steven_]

+1

14:24:35 [MacTed]

+1

14:24:39 [scor]

+1

14:24:42 [manu1]

RESOLVED: Fix the regular expression for the definition of a CURIE in RDFa Core 1.1, Appendix A.1 to not allow "://" as a valid CURIE.

14:25:07 [ivan]

issue-136?

14:25:07 [trackbot]

ISSUE-136 -- RDFa Lite 1.1 Conformance Section - host language attributes -- open

14:25:07 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/136

14:25:08 [manu1]

Next up: https://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/136

14:25:33 [ivan]

manu: alex brought it up, rdfa lite conformance

14:25:42 [ivan]

… we need to do some minor editorial changes

14:25:47 [ivan]

q+

14:25:51 [manu1]

ack ivan

14:26:28 [manu1]

ivan: If you follow the thread, I have some text which is relatively obvious for adding a reference to @href and @src - there is the @rel/@rev issue. I'm not sure how to address that.

14:26:34 [gkellogg]

Proposed text from Ivan: It must not use any additional RDFa attributes other than vocab, typeof, property, resource, and prefix; it may also use href and src, in case the Host Language authorizes their usage. The usage of rel and rev, if authorized by the Host Language, should be restricted to non-RDFa usage patterns, as defined by the Host Language.

14:27:00 [manu1]

ivan: If somebody uses @rel with one of those attributes not meant for RDFa - they are conformant RDFa Lite.

14:27:57 [Steven_]

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14:31:23 [MacTed]

"It must not use any additional RDFa attributes other than vocab, typeof, property, resource, and prefix; it may also use href and src, when the Host Language authorizes their usage. However, even if authorized by the Host Language, the usage of rel and rev should be restricted to non-RDFa usage patterns, as defined by the Host Language."

14:31:36 [manu1]

PROPOSAL: Update the RDFa Lite 1.1 specification to make it clear that authors must not use any additional RDFa attributes other than vocab, typeof, property, resource, and prefix; it may also use href and src, in case the Host Language authorizes their usage. The usage of rel and rev, if authorized by the Host Language, should be restricted to non-RDFa usage patterns, as defined by the Host...

14:31:37 [manu1]

...Language.

14:31:53 [MacTed]

Zakim, unmute me

14:31:53 [Zakim]

MacTed was not muted, MacTed

14:33:09 [manu1]

PROPOSAL: Update the RDFa Lite 1.1 specification using something to the effect of: "It must not use any additional RDFa attributes other than vocab, typeof, property, resource, and prefix; it may also use href and src, when the Host Language authorizes their usage. However, even if authorized by the Host Language, the usage of rel and rev should be restricted to non-RDFa usage patterns, as...

14:33:10 [manu1]

...defined by the Host Language."

14:33:22 [manu1]

+1

14:33:23 [MacTed]

+1

14:33:23 [gkellogg]

+1

14:33:24 [ivan]

+1

14:33:26 [ShaneM]

+1

14:33:26 [scor]

+1

14:33:39 [Steven]

+1

14:33:50 [niklasl]

+1

14:33:54 [manu1]

RESOLVED: Update the RDFa Lite 1.1 specification using something to the effect of: "It must not use any additional RDFa attributes other than vocab, typeof, property, resource, and prefix; it may also use href and src, when the Host Language authorizes their usage. However, even if authorized by the Host Language, the usage of rel and rev should be restricted to non-RDFa usage patterns, as...

14:33:56 [manu1]

...defined by the Host Language."

14:33:59 [scor]

It seems these pure editorial changes were not made to RDFa Lite yet: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2012Mar/0002.html - we might not need to vote, but I want to double check…

14:34:21 [ivan]

issue-134?

14:34:21 [trackbot]

ISSUE-134 -- Section 7.5, Step 11 Ambiguity in RDFa Core 1.1 -- open

14:34:21 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/134

14:34:37 [manu1]

We should discuss: https://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/134

14:35:40 [scor]

q+

14:35:50 [ivan]

manu1: we could say that 'why the wording may be more clear, we have four interoperable implementations already therefore we should not change it at this point'

14:35:51 [ivan]

q+

14:35:54 [manu1]

ack scor

14:36:02 [ivan]

scor: these changes are not substantive

14:36:07 [ivan]

… why not make them

14:36:11 [manu1]

scor: These changes are not substantive.

14:36:32 [ivan]

manu: the danger is that we would make changes with bugs

14:37:07 [manu1]

ack ivan

14:37:32 [manu1]

ivan: If I want to be fair, your argumentation doesn't hold, Manu - all four implementations are from people in this WG.

14:37:36 [manu1]

q+

14:38:27 [manu1]

ivan: Alex is the first person that implemented this w/o being a part of the discussion. You could refute the argument you're using that way. That being said, I am very worried about making wide changes. We could address Alex's issue at this point, but it becomes a bit scary to make this change at this point.

14:38:28 [gkellogg]

q+

14:38:29 [manu1]

ack manu1

14:38:55 [manu1]

MacTed: Could we make this change as a note?

14:38:58 [manu1]

ivan: Not really.

14:39:30 [ivan]

manu1: one minor note: whenever I go through this stuff and implement it, then I really read it through the word

14:39:36 [ivan]

… it was not not 'not clear'

14:39:43 [manu1]

ack gkellogg

14:39:43 [ivan]

… but ivan is right we understand that stuff

14:39:57 [ivan]

gkellogg: I attempt to do same thing, i.e., reading the document

14:40:05 [Steven_]

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14:40:09 [ivan]

… i implemented 1.0 without being in the group

14:40:19 [ivan]

… the most important point was the test cases

14:40:20 [niklasl]

+1

14:40:34 [ivan]

… and I would be worried to make any change that should ripple through the document

14:41:38 [ivan]

manu: we agree that it would be nice to make the processing steps a little bit more clear, but we are concerned about the ripple effects of this mainly when we already have implementations

14:42:01 [ivan]

niklasl: i was mainly driven by the test cases, and in case we had a problem i went back to the text

14:42:02 [niklasl]

… "… "otherwise, if the @rel, @rev, and @content attributes are not present, as a resource obtained from one of the following:""

14:42:30 [scor]

q+

14:42:46 [ivan]

niklasl: I can see Alex' point if he did not have a return statement in his text

14:42:56 [niklasl]

… "otherwise, if the @rel, @rev, and @content attributes are not present, and a resource is obtained from one of the following:"

14:43:13 [manu1]

ack scor

14:43:13 [ivan]

niklas: we could change the text to the above

14:43:43 [ivan]

scor: grant mail says that we should not change this

14:43:51 [manu1]

scor: Grant recommends not to change the wording... he's agreeing with the general direction of the group.

14:44:18 [ivan]

scor: we could say the group agrees not to change

14:44:28 [ivan]

manu: i do not think we should make any change at this point

14:44:37 [ivan]

… alex would understand if we do not make the change

14:44:44 [ivan]

… the positive downside is very large

14:44:54 [ivan]

… and we do not really have a consensus that we really need the change

14:45:53 [ivan]

manu: i think we are talking this to death

14:46:06 [Steven_]

Move on

14:46:07 [ivan]

… i have not heard anybody who really feels we have to make this change

14:47:49 [MacTed]

While the text is not as clear as it might be, implications of a change are potentially more problematic than the present inclarity.

14:48:32 [niklasl]

.. I believe that Core section "8.1.1.3.1 Chaining with @property and @typeof" <http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-core/Overview-src.html#chaining-with--property-and--typeof> wouldn't work with the wrong implementation of this step. Can anyone verify?

14:49:00 [manu1]

PROPOSAL: Regarding Section 7.5, Step 11, while the text is not as clear as it might be, making a change at this point could be more problematic than leaving the text as is.

14:49:10 [manu1]

PROPOSAL: Regarding Section 7.5, Step 11, while the text is not as clear as it should be, making a change at this point could be more problematic than leaving the text as is.

14:49:17 [gkellogg]

+1

14:49:19 [ivan]

+1

14:49:29 [manu1]

+1

14:49:40 [scor]

+1

14:49:42 [niklasl]

+1

14:49:52 [MacTed]

+1

14:49:59 [manu1]

Additionally, the group believes that making a change right before REC is a bad idea, especially when the potential upside is vague.

14:50:08 [ShaneM]

+1

14:50:15 [Steven]

+1

14:50:17 [manu1]

RESOLVED: Regarding Section 7.5, Step 11, while the text is not as clear as it should be, making a change at this point could be more problematic than leaving the text as is.

14:51:16 [niklasl]

q+

14:51:34 [manu1]

ack niklasl

14:51:43 [ivan]

niklasl: issue 135, do we have to discuss it?

14:51:50 [ivan]

… it almost brought us to a halt...

14:52:03 [ivan]

manu: yes, but we have to finalize the rec versions

14:52:36 [scor]

q+

14:53:04 [scor]

It seems these pure editorial changes were not made to RDFa Lite yet: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2012Mar/0002.html - we might not need to vote, but I want to double check

14:53:27 [ivan]

manu: i intend to merge those

14:53:32 [ivan]

… everything in there is editorial

14:53:36 [ivan]

… i will do what you say

14:55:09 [manu1]

PROPOSAL: The RDF Web Apps Working Group requests that the Director move RDFa Core 1.1, RDFa Lite 1.1, and XHTML+RDFa 1.1 to the Proposed Recommendation status modulo any changes that may be required before April 30th. The group requests that the documents are published on May 3rd 2012.

14:55:24 [scor]

+1

14:55:25 [gkellogg]

+1

14:55:26 [Steven]

+1

14:55:26 [ivan]

+1

14:55:27 [niklasl]

+1

14:55:27 [manu1]

+1

14:55:34 [MacTed]

+1

14:55:46 [ShaneM]

+1

14:55:48 [manu1]

RESOLVED: The RDF Web Apps Working Group requests that the Director move RDFa Core 1.1, RDFa Lite 1.1, and XHTML+RDFa 1.1 to the Proposed Recommendation status modulo any changes that may be required before April 30th. The group requests that the documents are published on May 3rd 2012.

14:56:47 [ShaneM]

CURIE regex: (([\i-[:]][\c-[:]]*)?:)?(/[^\s/]|[^\s/])[^\s]*

14:57:22 [manu1]

ivan: Practicalities - Manu - you should send out an e-mail to the chairs requesting PR... it should go out on Monday (that's the 30th). Maybe sending it out before to Ralph, Thomas, Ivan would be good. We should have this on the record. There should be some sort of a report on what changes have happened on the document.

14:57:55 [gkellogg]

q+

14:57:59 [manu1]

ack scor

14:58:06 [manu1]

ack gkellogg

14:58:21 [ivan]

gkellogg: the earl report, should it be a working group note?

14:58:23 [gkellogg]

http://rdfa.info/earl-reports/

15:00:05 [ivan]

manu1: I will put the document on w3c space

15:00:23 [ivan]

… will send out the info to ralph, thomas, and an official mail with chairs to monday

15:00:40 [ivan]

topic: del value issue

15:00:45 [manu1]

Topic: ISSUE-135: RDFa Lite and non-RDFa @rel values

15:00:54 [Steven]

s/del val/rel val/

15:00:58 [Zakim]

-MacTed

15:01:50 [ShaneM]

q+

15:02:26 [manu1]

ack shanem

15:02:34 [manu1]

http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/135

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15:04:55 [niklasl]

q+

15:05:06 [ivan]

q+

15:05:22 [scor]

q+

15:06:02 [manu1]

ack niklasl

15:09:23 [manu1]

ack ivan

15:09:25 [manu1]

q+

15:10:25 [manu1]

ack scor

15:14:31 [manu1]

ack

15:15:02 [scor]

q+

15:16:53 [ivan]

ack manu1

15:17:20 [ivan]

q+

15:17:26 [manu1]

ack scor

15:21:28 [manu1]

ack ivan

15:23:00 [scor]

q+

15:23:43 [ShaneM]

q+ to ask about @vocab and @rel

15:23:51 [manu1]

ack scor

15:25:13 [manu1]

q+ for no changes to RDFa Core

15:25:20 [manu1]

ack shanem

15:25:20 [Zakim]

ShaneM, you wanted to ask about @vocab and @rel

15:27:04 [Steven_]

Steven_ has joined #rdfa

15:29:18 [scor]

q+

15:30:08 [manu1]

ack manu1

15:30:08 [Zakim]

manu1, you wanted to discuss no changes to RDFa Core

15:30:31 [Steven]

+1 to that

15:30:41 [gkellogg]

+1

15:31:16 [scor]

http://www.w3.org/TR/html-data-guide/#properties-within-links

15:31:17 [manu1]

ack scor

15:32:52 [manu1]

q+ to propose a way forward with this issue.

15:35:11 [scor]

q+

15:36:09 [gkellogg]

q+

15:36:18 [ShaneM]

q+

15:37:46 [manu1]

ack manu1

15:37:46 [Zakim]

manu1, you wanted to propose a way forward with this issue.

15:39:01 [manu1]

ack scor

15:40:17 [gkellogg]

q-

15:42:11 [bergie]

bergie has joined #rdfa

15:44:15 [manu1]

ack shanem

15:44:27 [manu1]

What does the group favor? Straw poll: There are two options to address this issue: 1) In HTML5+RDFa - when using @vocab, authors MUST use CURIEs or IRIs in @rel (terms are ignored), and 2) In HTML5+RDFa, authors MUST use CURIEs or IRIs in @rel - no terms are allowed.

15:44:43 [ivan]

+1 +1

15:44:47 [scor]

+1 for either

15:44:51 [gkellogg]

+0, +1

15:44:57 [ShaneM]

-1 +1

15:45:07 [manu1]

manu: -1 -1 (but if I had to pick), -1 +1

15:45:57 [Steven]

+0 +0

15:45:58 [niklasl]

+0.75 +0.75 (I'd prefer opt. 2 + "only if @property is present in the same element")

15:48:25 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

15:48:27 [Zakim]

-Steven_

15:48:27 [Zakim]

-gkellogg

15:48:30 [Zakim]

-manu1

15:48:32 [Zakim]

-niklasl

15:48:33 [Zakim]

-??P13

15:48:58 [gkellogg]

manu: the earl report is up to date, but the displayed version is not. Must be another site sync issue.

15:49:27 [manu1]

gkellogg: thanks, I'll git pull

15:52:23 [Zakim]

-Ivan

15:52:24 [Zakim]

SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended

15:52:24 [Zakim]

Attendees were gkellogg, Ivan, niklasl, manu1, MacTed, Steven_, ShaneM

16:07:34 [niklasl]

To be clear, I'm sure that in option 2 we also mean "terms are ignored" (i.e. you may use non-curie names, they just are ignored). And we also in both cases imply that if all is ignored, the @rel *itself* is ignored (needed to avoid it's effect on processing when combined with @property - the heart of the issue)

16:31:41 [manu1]

niklasl: That was my read on it as well

16:31:59 [niklasl]

Great.

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