16:26:51 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:26:51 logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-ua-irc 16:26:53 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:26:53 Zakim has joined #ua 16:26:55 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 16:26:55 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 34 minutes 16:26:56 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 16:26:56 Date: 19 April 2012 16:27:16 rrsagent, set logs public 16:30:53 Agenda+ Face to Face Logistics 16:30:55 Agenda+ Scope of UAAG 2.0 16:30:56 Agenda+ 1.2.1 and 1.2.2 – Action 712 on JAN http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0034.html 16:30:58 Agenda+ 1.3.2 editors note, needs visual highlighting added (Kim?) 16:31:00 Agenda+ 1.3.3, 1.5.1 needs decision on whether it is done or not - Action item 723 on Kim 16:31:01 Agenda+ 1.7 Action-657 Jeanne (adding Wayne's final proposal ... which one, we edited it) 16:31:03 Agenda+ 1.8 Action-631 Jeanne (add new wording) Action-662 Jeanne (add revised wording) 16:31:04 Agenda+ 1.10.2 Action-639 Jan (revise for proposal) 16:31:06 Agenda+ 1.11.1 & 1.11.2 Action-467 Jim (revise for proposal) 16:31:07 Agenda+ Review any other proposals sent to list 16:31:09 regrets: Kelly, wayne 16:47:59 JAllan_ has joined #ua 16:56:13 jeanne has joined #ua 16:59:01 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 16:59:08 +Jeanne 16:59:49 -Jeanne 16:59:50 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 16:59:50 Attendees were Jeanne 17:00:15 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 17:00:20 +Jim_Allan 17:00:29 +Jeanne 17:00:48 +Greg_Lowney 17:01:17 Jan has joined #ua 17:01:26 zakim, code? 17:01:26 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan 17:02:22 +??P1 17:02:38 zakim, ??P1 is really Jan 17:02:38 +Jan; got it 17:07:30 zakim, agenda? 17:07:30 I see 10 items remaining on the agenda: 17:07:31 1. Face to Face Logistics [from JAllan] 17:07:31 2. Scope of UAAG 2.0 [from JAllan] 17:07:31 3. 1.2.1 and 1.2.2 – Action 712 on JAN http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0034.html [from JAllan] 17:07:31 4. 1.3.2 editors note, needs visual highlighting added (Kim?) [from JAllan] 17:07:32 5. 1.3.3, 1.5.1 needs decision on whether it is done or not - Action item 723 on Kim [from JAllan] 17:07:34 6. 1.7 Action-657 Jeanne (adding Wayne's final proposal ... which one, we edited it) [from JAllan] 17:07:36 7. 1.8 Action-631 Jeanne (add new wording) Action-662 Jeanne (add revised wording) [from JAllan] 17:07:38 8. 1.10.2 Action-639 Jan (revise for proposal) [from JAllan] 17:07:40 9. 1.11.1 & 1.11.2 Action-467 Jim (revise for proposal) [from JAllan] 17:07:41 10. Review any other proposals sent to list [from JAllan] 17:07:47 zakim, open item 1 17:07:47 agendum 1. "Face to Face Logistics" taken up [from JAllan] 17:09:24 +Kim_Patch 17:11:57 Hotel Allandale 17:11:58 7685 Northcross Drive, Austin, TX 7875 17:12:00 512-452-9391 17:12:01 use group name TSBVI-UAAG 17:13:37 Greg has joined #ua 17:14:36 KimPatch has joined #ua 17:15:02 $139.00 suite hotel 17:15:23 zakim, close item 1 17:15:23 agendum 1, Face to Face Logistics, closed 17:15:24 I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:15:24 2. Scope of UAAG 2.0 [from JAllan] 17:15:36 zakim, open item 2 17:15:36 agendum 2. "Scope of UAAG 2.0" taken up [from JAllan] 17:15:41 anyone looking for support in attending F2F contact jeanne this week. 17:16:50 strategies for finishing the document (levels, sub documents, etc.) 17:17:29 id the scope of features, stop adding SC, anything thing new goes into UAAG next. 17:17:52 create a wiki to capture ideas 17:19:56 Jeanne will look at ways to manage this information. 17:20:22 action: jeanne to set up tracker document for UAAG.next issues and the syntax to add it to trackbot. 17:20:22 Created ACTION-724 - Set up tracker document for UAAG.next issues and the syntax to add it to trackbot. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2012-04-26]. 17:20:58 all will have responsibility to call any SC a UAAG.next item 17:21:08 zakim, close item 2 17:21:08 agendum 2, Scope of UAAG 2.0, closed 17:21:10 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:21:10 3. 1.2.1 and 1.2.2 – Action 712 on JAN http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0034.html [from JAllan] 17:21:37 zakim, open next 17:21:37 agendum 3. "1.2.1 and 1.2.2 – Action 712 on JAN http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0034.html" taken up [from JAllan] 17:21:53 action-712 17:23:20 back and forth. ATAG has 'let the UA repair missing information'. 17:24:03 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2012/ED-UAAG20-20120411/#gl-missing-alt 17:24:19 proposal: 17:25:06 1.2.1 Support Repair by Assistive Technologies: If text alternatives for non-text content are missing or empty then both of the following are true: (Level A) 17:25:07 (a) the user agent does not attempt to repair the text alternatives with text values that would also be available to assistive technologies. 17:25:09 (b) the user agent makes metadata related to the non-text content available through the platform accessibility architecture. 17:25:10 Note: Examples of text values that are also available to user agents, and should be avoided, include the filename, the file format, and generic phrases (e.g. "image"). 17:25:12 Ed. See http://www.w3.org/TR/ATAG20/#sc_b233 17:25:13 Ed. This leaves open UAs generating captions for instance. 17:25:29 1.2.2 Repair Missing Structure: The user can specify whether or not the user agent should attempt to predict the following relationships from author-specified presentation attributes (i.e. position and appearance): (Level AAA) 17:25:31 (a) Labels 17:25:32 (b) Headers 17:27:28 headers = H1-6, TH 17:27:57 (b) Headers (i.e. heading markup, table headers) 17:28:29 gl: 1.2.2 UA predict. what should it do once predicted? 17:28:45 jr: it is repair, so it should do something. 17:29:33 ... UA already do lots of repair, fixing nesting, unclosed, non-valid, poorly formed documents. 17:29:42 ... this is a AAA 17:30:17 gl: if it sees bold characters with : then it would be an inline heading 5 17:30:26 jr: yes, user can specify 17:30:34 gl: sounds reasonable 17:31:34 insert code with improved semantics 17:32:24 1.2.2 Repair Missing Structure: The user can specify whether or not the user agent should attempt to adjust the structural markup from author-specified presentation attributes (i.e. position and appearance): (Level AAA) 17:33:34 1.2.2 Repair Missing Structure: The user can specify whether or not the user agent should attempt to insert the following types of structural markup on the basis of author-specified presentation attributes (i.e. position and appearance): (Level AAA) 17:34:04 gl: will need intent and examples. 17:34:25 ... are there other examples that should fall into this category 17:34:51 ... image with text beneath it, UA creates a caption 17:35:13 jr: image caption doesn't seem to fall in this. 17:36:27 jr: paragraphs with *, this would be all things that trigger an accessibility flag. 17:36:58 gl: note in the intent...UAs are encouraged to repair more. 17:37:33 jr: don't want to get too far afield 17:38:48 Action JR: Write IER for the new "1.2.2 Repair Missing Structure" 17:38:48 Created ACTION-725 - Write IER for the new "1.2.2 Repair Missing Structure" [on Jan Richards - due 2012-04-26]. 17:38:57 Resolution: add 1.2.2 Repair Missing Structure: The user can specify whether or not the user agent should attempt to insert the following types of structural markup on the basis of author-specified presentation attributes (i.e. position and appearance): (Level AAA) 17:38:59 (a) Labels 17:39:00 (b) Headers (i.e. heading markup, table headers) 17:39:22 gl: question about 1.2.1 17:39:54 does this prohibit the UA from showing the filename. 17:40:18 jr: it would be prohibited from moving the file name to the @alt 17:40:33 ... it would be up to AT to present to the user 17:40:48 ... this would not change the DOM 17:41:32 gl: want the UA to be able present information to the user 17:42:09 ... if images off, and no @alt, then UA could provide filename. 17:42:41 gl: unsure about (b) the user agent makes metadata related to the non-text content available through the platform accessibility architecture. 17:42:53 jr: questions also. this is from Simon. 17:43:15 ... this is information that is embedded within the media. 17:43:55 gl: this info is not in the DOM or html attributes. only exists in attributes within the image. 17:45:16 gl: if there is no standard field in A11y API to provide this information. 17:47:18 jr: perhaps just say programmatic ally available and let the UA AT negotiate 17:47:51 (b) the user agent makes metadata related to the non-text content available programmatically (and not via fields reserved for text alternatives). 17:48:14 gl: want to leave out platform a!!y architecture. 17:48:18 +1 17:48:25 +1 17:49:05 So UA would comply if it exposes exactly one piece of metadata, and it can be useless one? 17:49:40 jr: it could. it is a low bar. use the IER to explain more. 17:50:50 scribe: jallan 17:51:15 jr: we are offloading image processing to the AT. so they would have to process all images. 17:51:56 1.2.1 Support Repair by Assistive Technologies: If text alternatives for non-text content are missing or empty then both of the following are true: (Level A) 17:51:57 (a) the user agent does not attempt to repair the text alternatives with text values that would also be available to assistive technologies. 17:51:59 (b) the user agent makes metadata related to the non-text content available programmatically (and not via fields reserved for text alternatives). 17:52:14 I also think the wording should clarify that "metadata" does not mean *all* metadata, which would be impossible using platform accessibility API. 17:53:05 Although that would probably be phrased "*the* metadata" or "*all* metadata". 17:53:12 ja: ***flag*** for call out when publishing the draft 17:55:23 resolution: 1.2.1 Support Repair by Assistive Technologies: If text alternatives for non-text content are missing or empty then both of the following are true: (Level A) 17:55:25 (a) the user agent does not attempt to repair the text alternatives with text values that would also be available to assistive technologies. 17:55:26 (b) the user agent makes metadata related to the non-text content available programmatically (and not via fields reserved for text alternatives). 17:55:36 all: discussion of metadata 17:55:54 Action JR: Write IER for the new "1.2.1 Support Repair by Assistive Technologies" 17:55:54 Created ACTION-726 - Write IER for the new "1.2.1 Support Repair by Assistive Technologies" [on Jan Richards - due 2012-04-26]. 17:56:09 ja: this would be a good extension, to pull out all metadata related to an images 17:58:40 close Action-712 17:58:40 ACTION-712 Write an SC to substitute for 1.2.1 and 1.2.2 that gives the user the ability to request the meta data available for an object, closed 17:59:48 zakim, close item 3 17:59:48 agendum 3, 1.2.1 and 1.2.2 – Action 712 on JAN http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0034.html, closed 17:59:50 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:59:50 4. 1.3.2 editors note, needs visual highlighting added (Kim?) [from JAllan] 18:00:04 zakim, agenda" 18:00:04 I don't understand 'agenda"', JAllan 18:00:09 zakim, agenda? 18:00:09 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda: 18:00:11 4. 1.3.2 editors note, needs visual highlighting added (Kim?) [from JAllan] 18:00:11 5. 1.3.3, 1.5.1 needs decision on whether it is done or not - Action item 723 on Kim [from JAllan] 18:00:11 6. 1.7 Action-657 Jeanne (adding Wayne's final proposal ... which one, we edited it) [from JAllan] 18:00:11 7. 1.8 Action-631 Jeanne (add new wording) Action-662 Jeanne (add revised wording) [from JAllan] 18:00:11 8. 1.10.2 Action-639 Jan (revise for proposal) [from JAllan] 18:00:14 9. 1.11.1 & 1.11.2 Action-467 Jim (revise for proposal) [from JAllan] 18:00:14 10. Review any other proposals sent to list [from JAllan] 18:02:40 item 6 may already be done. 18:03:39 For UAWG Action-690 proposals for Zooming 1.8.x http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012AprJun/0027.html 18:06:36 1.8.3 Resize Viewport: The user can make viewports resizable, within the limits of the display, overriding any values specified by the author. (Level A) ## DONE TPAC 18:08:13 topic: Action-690 18:08:20 1.8.X: Zoom: The user can rescale content within graphical viewports such that (Level A): 18:08:21 (a) Lower rescale bound: The lower rescale bound is at least 10% or at least one dimension of the content can fit into the viewport without scrollbars. For text content, the language's text directionality will determine the dimension (e.g., horizontally oriented text should be rescaled such that horizontal scrollbars are not required). 18:08:23 (b) Upper rescale bound: At least 1000%. 18:09:27 jr: you can make text smaller down to 10% of size or until one scroll bar not required. 18:10:28 gl: user should be able to scale between 10 and 1000%, or beable to fit with in the hor. or vert. bound of the viewport 18:10:36 ... need example 18:11:03 jr: making text really small, its about getting a view of the layout. 18:11:57 ...a word document, only want to scroll vertically. 18:12:52 gl: you have a long document, huge 25 feet wide, have to do 10% or 1 % 18:13:09 jr: this is an 'or' so 10% 18:13:39 ... there may be formats where they know the bounding limits of the document. 18:14:03 gl: I understand the concept, but the wording seems complicated. 18:14:45 jr: only want to scale in 1 dimension, and background image comes into play. 18:15:07 gl: does any UA do 10 to 1000? 18:15:18 jr: word does 10 to 500 18:16:13 gl: how do you calculate, no current UI for specific numbers 18:17:00 ja: Opera has a numerical scale 18:17:08 Is there any real world example where all the reading direction thing would matter? Or in reality would this just be 10-1000%? 18:17:43 That is, a case where a UA would know the maximum width of a given file format and thus hard-code to it? 18:17:44 ja: WCAG only has to 200%, are we extending it 18:18:31 I guess I lean towards the simpler 10-1000% unless we can come up with an example where the more complex case would apply. 18:19:27 jr and js and ja don't think 200% is big enought. 18:19:42 s/enought/enough 18:19:59 And is providing 1000% useful if the UA doesn't provide any UI to get that magnification other than pressing a Zoom command 700 times? 18:20:13 jr: 10% or scale until only 1 scroll bar is required 18:20:56 ...it the UA know the dimension of the object you are looking at, you can shrink to 10% or its height or width fit in the viewport 18:22:03 Maybe a simpler way of saying it would be something along the lines of (a) if the file format can handle differing sizes, then 10-1000%, or (b) if the size is fixed, small enough to fit in the viewport for one dimension... 18:22:31 jr: ok 18:23:46 jan to rewrite 1.8.x 18:23:50 JR will take 690 again...working with Greg's wording 18:23:59 topic: 1.8.y 18:24:02 1.8.Y: Reflowing Zoom: The user can request that when content within a graphical viewport is rescaled, reflowable content is reflowed such that one dimension of the content can fit into the viewport without scrollbars (e.g., horizontally oriented text should be rescaled such that horizontal scrollbars are not required). (Level AA) 18:24:04 Note: Limits to reflow include multi-media objects, words without spaces, and where the author prohibits wrapping. 18:25:13 ja: should just be 'media objects' 18:25:32 gl: note defines non-reflowable content 18:26:39 Note: Exceptions to reflowable content include media objects, words without spaces, and where the author prohibits wrapping. 18:27:59 gl: questions limits of non-breaking content 18:28:15 ... don't want to be prescriptive 18:29:15 jr: put in the examples, of non-breaking content. row of xxxxxx, etc, long URL, should be up to the UA how to break long text 18:29:53 ... how far does this go? flash content 18:30:23 User should have ability to force wrapping overriding author settings that prohibit wrapping. Yes, some things may break, just like they may break when colors are overridden, but the user should be allowed to try. 18:31:05 ja: canvas is a non-reflowable object. 18:32:31 gl: user should be allowed to override nowrap (by author) 18:32:48 Distinction between cases where the barrier to wrapping is technological (e.g. canvas, image, audio) vs. author preference (e.g. nowrap). 18:33:43 I'd handle that in definition of reflowable content? 18:33:50 jr: layout engines have own rules, and may nativelively prohibit reflow. 18:35:00 Distinction between cases where the barrier to wrapping is technological (e.g. canvas, image, audio) vs. author preference (e.g. text with nowrap or pre), vs. things like long words with no spaces which might be left up to user agent/user? 18:35:30 need a defintioon of reflow 18:36:13 Basically, horizontal scrolling (in horizontal languages) is an accessibility problem, and all things should address how the user can avoid that problem. 18:37:50 s/defintioon/definition 18:38:55 gr will work on definition of relowable. gr mentions e-pub has this concept may have a def. 18:39:20 s/relowable/reflowable 18:41:02 -Kim_Patch 18:41:03 -Jan 18:41:05 -Greg_Lowney 18:41:05 -Jeanne 18:41:07 -Jim_Allan 18:41:07 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 18:41:07 Attendees were Jim_Allan, Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Jan, Kim_Patch 18:41:12 rrsagent make minutes 18:41:18 rrsagent, make minutes 18:41:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-ua-minutes.html JAllan 18:42:27 chair: JimAllan, KellyFord 18:42:32 rrsagent, make minutes 18:42:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-ua-minutes.html JAllan 18:42:58 rrsagent, please part 18:42:58 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-ua-actions.rdf : 18:42:58 ACTION: jeanne to set up tracker document for UAAG.next issues and the syntax to add it to trackbot. [1] 18:42:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-ua-irc#T17-20-22 18:42:58 ACTION: JR to Write IER for the new "1.2.2 Repair Missing Structure" [2] 18:42:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-ua-irc#T17-38-48 18:42:58 ACTION: JR to Write IER for the new "1.2.1 Support Repair by Assistive Technologies" [3] 18:42:58 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-ua-irc#T17-55-54 18:43:07 zakim, please part 18:43:07 Zakim has left #ua