14:24:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-techs-tf
14:24:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/16-html-techs-tf-irc
14:24:23 <Joshue108> zakim, this will be 9224
14:24:23 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, Joshue108
14:31:12 <Joshue108> zakim, this will be 9224
14:31:13 <Zakim> ok, Joshue108; I see WAI_HTML TT()11:30AM scheduled to start in 59 minutes
14:31:49 <Joshue108> rragent, make logs world
14:31:55 <Joshue108> rrsagent, make logs world
14:32:16 <Joshue108> Meeting: HTML Techniques Task Force
14:32:34 <Joshue108> chair: Josh
14:33:03 <Joshue108> Agenda + Please comment on the survey for this week (if you haven't already) - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/htmltechs-20120409/
14:33:14 <Joshue108> Agenda + Possible F2F at TPAC 2012 <http://www.w3.org/2012/10/TPAC/> (Lyon, France
14:33:15 <Joshue108>     Week of Oct 29)
15:50:42 <cfit> cfit has joined #html-techs-tf
15:57:57 <cfit> zakim, code?
15:57:57 <Zakim> the conference code is 9224 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), cfit
15:57:59 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #html-techs-tf
15:58:08 <Zakim> WAI_HTML TT()11:30AM has now started
15:58:15 <Zakim> +??P0
15:58:23 <cfit> zakim, ??P0 is Joshue
15:58:23 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
15:58:55 <Zakim> +Cooper
15:58:56 <cfit> Meeting: HTML Techniques Task Force
15:59:03 <Zakim> +??P3
15:59:31 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P3 is Loretta_Guarino_Reid
15:59:31 <Zakim> +Loretta_Guarino_Reid; got it
16:01:34 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
16:01:41 <Zakim> -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
16:02:13 <Zakim> + +1.202.272.aaaa
16:02:23 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is Bruce_Bailey
16:02:23 <Zakim> +Bruce_Bailey; got it
16:03:15 <Zakim> +Marc_Johlic
16:03:31 <David> David has joined #html-techs-tf
16:04:32 <Zakim> +??P15
16:05:15 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P15 is Adam_Solomon
16:05:15 <Zakim> +Adam_Solomon; got it
16:05:25 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #html-techs-tf
16:06:03 <adam> adam has joined #html-techs-tf
16:06:08 <marcjohlic> scribe:  marcjohlic
16:06:19 <cfit> zakim, take up item 1
16:06:19 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Please comment on the survey for this week (if you haven't already) - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/htmltechs-20120409/" taken up [from Joshue108]
16:07:07 <cfit> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_HTML5_section_elements
16:07:43 <Zakim> +Jon_Gunderson
16:08:04 <David> 	http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_HTML5_section_elements
16:08:24 <marcjohlic> JC:  Reviewing feedback - will update and try to present again next week
16:08:54 <marcjohlic> JC:  Should we divide technique up into many techniques - or is it better to have it all in one large technique
16:09:10 <marcjohlic> DM:  Feels one technique is sufficient..  looking it over
16:09:30 <marcjohlic> DM:  Where did article example come from
16:09:42 <marcjohlic> JC:  Just made it up - pulling from existing spec
16:10:04 <marcjohlic> JG:  Heading structure using H1?
16:10:23 <marcjohlic> JC:  Left out because wasn't sure if it should be an advisory technique
16:12:02 <marcjohlic> JG:  Looking at Example 4 - wouldn't you want every post to use an H2 to indicate that it's under the "Your first high end guitar" because it's an H1?
16:12:08 <marcjohlic> JC:  Good point
16:13:41 <marcjohlic> DM:  How do people feel about having headers and footers included - tend to think about header being at the top and footer at bottom - and didn't think of including each in every article..  I don't know that I'd put those in each article..
16:14:08 <marcjohlic> JG:  Semantic markup best when sparse - tends to lose meaning when it's everywhere
16:14:40 <marcjohlic> JC:  Agree and will remove headers and footers
16:14:58 <marcjohlic> JG:  What do user agents do w/ headers and footers?  Do they make them landmakrs
16:15:19 <marcjohlic> DM:  It's pretty spotty right now - depends on the UA and AT you're using
16:16:03 <marcjohlic> DM:  "Landmarks" are very well supported right now, but HTML5 section elements are not
16:17:03 <marcjohlic> JC:  Some of these examples are based on what you could potentially do in the future 
16:17:09 <marcjohlic> DM:  maybe 6 mos - year
16:17:41 <marcjohlic> JC:  Will most of this end up as advisory techniques?
16:18:22 <marcjohlic> JC:  Some comments were on adding test techniques - but not quite sure how to add those for these
16:18:40 <marcjohlic> DM:  Recommend checking w/ Steve Faulkner as he's written some good HTML5 test techniques
16:19:51 <marcjohlic> BB:  Should clarify header and footer around tables
16:20:38 <marcjohlic> JG:  Concern that there may be potentially too many navigation points - ends up looking like  every bit of info is important..   might be overkill to have header and footer on every article (Example 4)
16:21:13 <marcjohlic> JC:  I'm going to change that - it's legal, but not necessarily best practice
16:22:05 <marcjohlic> JC:  There is a lot of confusion of how to mark up / nest stuff
16:22:57 <marcjohlic> JG:  According to SF blog it looks like article and header are just treated as divs now, but may be more relevant in the future
16:23:43 <jongund> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-api-map/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
16:24:00 <marcjohlic> JG:  Link to draft document of api mappings
16:24:42 <marcjohlic> JG:  article is an interesting role in HTML5 - not a landmark role but more like a special list as far as I can tell
16:24:52 <marcjohlic> JG:  May have to careful with article
16:25:14 <marcjohlic> JG:  Most folks think of article as a landmark, but it looks like it's not defined as a landmark
16:25:58 <marcjohlic> MC:  article is a type of region in a document - but should be clarified as a non-interactive region
16:26:25 <marcjohlic> JG:  What are they envisioning a screen reader's interaction would be?
16:27:19 <marcjohlic> JG:  articles are supposed to be used in a sequence?
16:27:36 <marcjohlic> DM:  supposed to be used more for blogs, newspaper / news sites
16:28:00 <marcjohlic> MC:  I would think that an article would have a heading and you would navigate via the headings
16:28:51 <marcjohlic> MC:  Even though article isn't technically a landmark doesn't mean that ATs couldn't come up with ways to interact / navigate (similar to tables today)
16:28:56 <cfit> Interesting article on JAWS, IE Heading http://www.accessibleculture.org/articles/2011/10/jaws-ie-and-headings-in-html5/
16:33:42 <David> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_ARIA_landmarks_to_identify_regions_of_a_page
16:34:22 <marcjohlic> JC:  Need to determine if we'll keep all of these together (section, article, aside) or split some of them out
16:35:24 <marcjohlic> MC:  My personal bias is to make techniques as granular as possible and then making use of the Related Techniques section
16:35:56 <marcjohlic> JC:  Would be fair to have examples that contain the multiple elements / attributes
16:36:16 <marcjohlic> JC:  MC makes the case on breaking this up - so if there is no disagreement I will go ahead and do that.
16:37:52 <cfit> ACTION: Josh to rework the section technique and divide it into smaller granular techs
16:38:32 <marcjohlic> AS:  As far as breaking up the techniques, there is a precedent in 1.3.2 for lists where it is all in one technique - so something to consider
16:39:14 <marcjohlic> JC:  I may be able to flesh it out some more if I did break it up
16:39:16 <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aabb
16:39:36 <MichaelC> zakim, aabb is Loretta_Guarino_Reid
16:39:36 <Zakim> +Loretta_Guarino_Reid; got it
16:39:37 <marcjohlic> AS:  If the only reason we are breaking up is due to length then I think we should reconsider
16:40:00 <David> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_HTML5_section_elements
16:40:31 <marcjohlic> LG:  Have you thought about what the test procedure would look like?
16:40:48 <marcjohlic> JC:  Thought about it, but have not put anything down yet..   may ping LG for some ideas
16:42:06 <marcjohlic> LG:  I don't think we've ever broken up just because it was long, but if you try to put too many things then it might be harder to write test procedures to cover everything.
16:42:33 <marcjohlic> AS:  1.3.2 gives good example even for test technique if kept together
16:42:59 <marcjohlic> DM:  Splitting up may make it too granular
16:43:57 <marcjohlic> LG:  When grouping you have to be careful that you don't somehow end up requiring all of them accidentally
16:44:20 <marcjohlic> JC:  That's similar to the point that JG brought up about including header and footer
16:44:42 <marcjohlic> JC:  Would it be possible to have 2 or 3 sets of test techniques if they were kept altogether?
16:45:08 <marcjohlic> LG:  Could utilized and / or - but would have to be clear of what is required
16:45:49 <marcjohlic> JC:  I'll break it up and we can see how it looks and then we can compare to what is already written and go from there
16:46:03 <marcjohlic> AS:  H48 would be a good example to look at for a test procedure
16:46:33 <Zakim> -Adam_Solomon
16:46:48 <David> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_ARIA_landmarks_to_identify_regions_of_a_page
16:46:58 <marcjohlic> TOPIC:  Using ARIA landmarks to identify regions of a page
16:49:05 <marcjohlic> JC:  Find that aria-label is really useful and wonder if this would be a good place to expand on it (just see it used in Ex 4)
16:49:10 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #html-techs-tf
16:49:19 <marcjohlic> DM:  I would put that in the aria-label technique that i'm working on next
16:49:46 <marcjohlic> DM:  Just using it in Ex 4 now to cover case of generic region landmark
16:50:02 <marcjohlic> DM:  Would add link to aria-label in the Related Resources section
16:50:44 <marcjohlic> JG:  Comment on Ex 5 - should H2 be inside of the div?  Is that better practice:?
16:50:54 <marcjohlic> DM:  Good point - I'll change that
16:51:22 <Loretta> Can someone paste in the URL for me?
16:52:47 <marcjohlic> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_ARIA_landmarks_to_identify_regions_of_a_page
16:54:22 <marcjohlic> LG:  Would like to see an advisory technique written up regarding all content being included within the landmark.
16:55:23 <marcjohlic> JG:  I'd be happy to try to write an advisory technique for that
16:55:32 <Zakim> -Jon_Gunderson
16:55:53 <marcjohlic> DM:  Do we want to go forward with this techinque?
16:56:06 <marcjohlic> JC:  Happy with it - ready to go fwd - what is the next step?
16:56:45 <marcjohlic> LG:  Would go to the Working Group, but we would probably want to wait and send a few of these over in a batch
16:57:05 <marcjohlic> LG:  Add something to the status stating that this one is ready to go to the WG
16:57:37 <marcjohlic> JC:  Any other comments on David's Landmark technique?
16:57:40 <marcjohlic> no more comments
16:57:54 <cfit> zakim, take up item 2
16:57:54 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Possible F2F at TPAC 2012 <http://www.w3.org/2012/10/TPAC/> (Lyon, France" taken up [from Joshue108]
16:58:17 <marcjohlic> LG:  Don't expect will be able to make it over
16:58:23 <marcjohlic> MC:  Does expect to be there
16:58:29 <marcjohlic> DM:  Hoping to get there
16:59:05 <marcjohlic> MC:  PF group will be there, folks already in HTML a11y that are in Europe may be there
17:00:56 <Zakim> -Bruce_Bailey
17:06:41 <marcjohlic> MC:  We can make a request for a room - but should only request for the days that we'll actually use it
17:06:51 <marcjohlic> JC:  Let's ask for Thurs for now
17:07:22 <marcjohlic> MC: Loretta, can you fill out the survey for that?  I've already answered on behalf of one group so can't answer this one
17:07:42 <marcjohlic> LG:  Yes - will do survey for WCAG for Thurs
17:07:45 <Joshue108> Joshue108 has joined #html-techs-tf
17:09:04 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
17:09:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/16-html-techs-tf-minutes.html MichaelC
17:09:22 <Zakim> -Marc_Johlic
17:09:26 <Zakim> -Joshue
17:11:32 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
17:11:40 <Zakim> -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
17:11:51 <Zakim> -Cooper
17:11:52 <Zakim> WAI_HTML TT()11:30AM has ended
17:11:52 <Zakim> Attendees were Joshue, Cooper, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, David_MacDonald, +1.202.272.aaaa, Bruce_Bailey, Marc_Johlic, Adam_Solomon, Jon_Gunderson, +1.650.253.aabb
17:12:01 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
17:12:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/16-html-techs-tf-minutes.html MichaelC
17:12:14 <MichaelC> zakim, bye
17:12:14 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-techs-tf
17:12:17 <MichaelC> rrsagent, bye
17:12:17 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/16-html-techs-tf-actions.rdf :
17:12:17 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Josh to rework the section technique and divide it into smaller granular techs [1]
17:12:17 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/04/16-html-techs-tf-irc#T16-37-52