12:24:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eval
12:24:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/12-eval-irc
12:24:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
12:24:53 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #eval
12:24:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3825
12:24:55 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
12:24:56 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
12:24:57 <trackbot> Date: 12 April 2012
12:25:13 <shadi> chair: Eric
12:25:25 <shadi> zakim, whis will be eval
12:25:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'whis will be eval', shadi
12:25:39 <shadi> zakim, whis will be 3825
12:25:39 <Zakim> I don't understand 'whis will be 3825', shadi
12:25:52 <shadi> zakim, this will be eval
12:25:52 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, shadi
13:08:39 <Moe> Moe has joined #eval
13:49:20 <MartijnHoutepen> MartijnHoutepen has joined #eval
13:49:50 <MartijnHoutepen> trackbot, start meeting
13:49:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:49:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3825
13:49:55 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
13:49:56 <trackbot> Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
13:49:56 <trackbot> Date: 12 April 2012
13:51:22 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #eval
13:51:25 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #eval
13:52:28 <Detlev> Just present via IRC, intermittentlu...
13:52:43 <Zakim> WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started
13:52:52 <Zakim> + +31.30.239.aaaa
13:53:08 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, aaaa is me
13:53:08 <Zakim> +MartijnHoutepen; got it
13:54:55 <Zakim> + +1.978.443.aabb
13:55:37 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, aabb is Kathy
13:55:37 <Zakim> +Kathy; got it
13:55:59 <Detlev> Not many folks around today...
13:56:26 <MartijnHoutepen> No, not yet
13:56:41 <Detlev> I'm in a meeting, can't call in, will just follow via IRC
13:56:58 <MartijnHoutepen> Ok
13:57:38 <Zakim> + +1.520.271.aacc
13:58:04 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, aacc is Don
13:58:04 <Zakim> +Don; got it
13:59:13 <korn> korn has joined #eval
13:59:41 <Liz> Liz has joined #eval
14:00:20 <Zakim> + +1.301.975.aadd
14:00:41 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, aadd is Liz
14:00:41 <Zakim> +Liz; got it
14:00:56 <Zakim> + +31.30.239.aaee
14:01:28 <Zakim> +[Oracle]
14:01:51 <ericvelleman> ericvelleman has joined #eval
14:02:02 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, aaee is ericvelleman
14:02:02 <Zakim> +ericvelleman; got it
14:02:08 <Zakim> + +1.978.562.aaff
14:02:13 <Sarah_Swierenga> Sarah_Swierenga has joined #eval
14:02:36 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, [Oracle] is korn
14:02:36 <Zakim> +korn; got it
14:02:49 <Zakim> + +1.517.432.aagg
14:02:49 <Moe> Moe has joined #eval
14:03:07 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, aaff is Moe
14:03:07 <Zakim> +Moe; got it
14:03:41 <MartijnHoutepen> scribe:Kathy
14:04:10 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, agenda?
14:04:10 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
14:04:44 <Mike_Elledge> Mike_Elledge has joined #eval
14:04:45 <Kathy> Eric:  New editor version available
14:04:58 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, agenda+ New comments
14:04:58 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
14:05:13 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, agenda+ Next editor draft
14:05:13 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
14:05:22 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, agenda+ other
14:05:22 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
14:05:31 <Kathy> Eric:  There is still only two comments on the mailing list.  If you are on social media, please point people to the document 
14:05:32 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, take up next
14:05:32 <Zakim> agendum 1. "New comments" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
14:05:36 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, take up next
14:05:36 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, MartijnHoutepen
14:05:47 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, close agendum 1
14:05:47 <Zakim> agendum 1, New comments, closed
14:05:48 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:05:48 <Zakim> 2. Next editor draft [from MartijnHoutepen]
14:05:52 <Zakim> + +1.517.353.aahh
14:06:13 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, mute me
14:06:13 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
14:06:19 <Kathy> Eric: Here is the new version: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/methodology/.  Eric will work on the use cases section and will include items from this meeting
14:06:25 <Kathy> zakim, mute me
14:06:25 <Zakim> Kathy should now be muted
14:06:27 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, aahh is Mike
14:06:27 <Zakim> +Mike; got it
14:07:00 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, aagg is Sarah_Swierenga
14:07:00 <Zakim> +Sarah_Swierenga; got it
14:07:15 <Kathy> Eric:  Step 4 - tried to keep the text as short as possible.  Requirements has been added
14:08:39 <Kathy> Peter:  Requirement 4c Does the accessibility supported techniques is that connected to tools used in 4a
14:09:32 <Kathy> Eric:  It is all connected to previous sections including step 2 & 3 and 4.
14:10:08 <Zakim> +??P28
14:10:46 <kerstin> kerstin has joined #eval
14:10:56 <Kathy> Peter:  Wondering if there should be a reference in 4c to the tools used
14:11:02 <kerstin> zakim, mute me
14:11:02 <Zakim> sorry, kerstin, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:11:06 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, ??P28 is Kerstin
14:11:06 <Zakim> +Kerstin; got it
14:11:14 <kerstin> zakim, mute me
14:11:14 <Zakim> Kerstin should now be muted
14:11:26 <Kathy> Eric:  recording the tools allows others to reproduce the results
14:11:27 <kerstin> thanks Martijn
14:11:35 <MartijnHoutepen> no problem
14:12:39 <Kathy> Peter: Should we give people more guideance on the tools used
14:13:48 <Kathy> Eric:  The tools include browsers, assistive technology and other plugins.  This would be defined in 1d.  In step 2, you include pages
14:14:24 <Mike_Elledge> q+
14:14:38 <Kathy> Peter:  the editor note should be included in the text (4d)
14:14:43 <ericvelleman> q?
14:14:51 <Kathy> Eric:  will add this
14:16:09 <Kathy> Mike:  We should not telling people what tools they should use for evaluation but tools used should be recorded.  It is covered under WCAG 2.0
14:16:42 <Kathy> Eric:  we should record what was used, this is in step 4e
14:17:15 <Kathy> Eric:  it is up to the evaluator to decide what tools they will use
14:17:37 <ericvelleman> q?
14:17:56 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, q- Mike
14:17:56 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
14:18:12 <Kathy> Eric:  Is anything missing from these steps
14:18:30 <ericvelleman> q?
14:18:36 <korn> q+
14:19:03 <MartijnHoutepen> ack korn
14:19:32 <Kathy> Peter:  Archiving section - web application may need a lot more information.  You cannot archive URLS.  Order of entry and data entered is important
14:19:54 <Kathy> Peter:  More information will need to be recorded - what they did and what happened
14:20:06 <Kathy> Eric:  This is 4d
14:20:15 <ericvelleman> q?
14:21:22 <Mike_Elledge> q+
14:21:27 <Kathy> Eric - Can you get screen shots?
14:21:53 <Kathy> Peter - Good idea but it may not be possible in all situations.  Should not be required
14:22:12 <ericvelleman> q?
14:22:19 <Kathy> Eric - How much description should we have?
14:22:42 <Kathy> Peter:  Not much more, just a bit more about steps
14:23:28 <Kathy> Mike:  It will depend on what you are evaluation and client expectations. May be just a list of pages checked.  If there is complicated steps then it will vary
14:23:32 <Sarah_Swierenga> q+
14:23:52 <Kathy> Eric:  Let's go back to 4a
14:24:11 <Kathy> Eric:  Will work in the details from the mailing list in 4a
14:24:19 <ericvelleman> q?
14:24:33 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, q- Mike
14:24:33 <Zakim> I see Sarah_Swierenga on the speaker queue
14:24:38 <MartijnHoutepen> ack Sarah
14:25:12 <Kathy> Sarah:  Do we need screen shots from all browsers and conditions?
14:25:41 <korn> q+
14:25:55 <Moe> q+
14:26:23 <Kathy> Eric:  This is optional. Not sure what is the minimal information needed for recording
14:26:25 <MartijnHoutepen> ack korn
14:26:25 <ericvelleman> q?
14:26:47 <Tim> Tim has joined #eval
14:27:44 <Kathy> Peter:  In 1d we tell users to select the minimum set of web browsers and assistive technology.  We may want to say as selected in rather than defined in
14:28:07 <Kathy> Moe:  Caution the use of screenshots.  Low vision users find these difficult
14:28:31 <Sarah_Swierenga> q+
14:28:33 <ericvelleman> q?
14:28:39 <MartijnHoutepen> ack moe
14:28:44 <Kathy> Eric:  We should have more than just screen shots and maybe we should have steps so that screen shot is complementary
14:28:56 <MartijnHoutepen> ack Sarah
14:29:01 <ericvelleman> q?
14:29:33 <Kathy> Sarah: screen shots should be supplemental.  Really need the steps and what you entered
14:29:56 <Kathy> Sarah:  To what extend does this need to be replicable
14:30:04 <Zakim> +Tim_Boland
14:30:09 <Kathy> Eric:  The results shoudl be comparable
14:30:24 <Kathy> Eric:  so it is what is needed to accomplish this goal
14:30:28 <ericvelleman> q?
14:31:01 <Kathy> ack me
14:31:21 <Kathy> Peter: Not likely
14:31:56 <Kathy> Eric: We need to include this in section 4
14:32:19 <Sarah_Swierenga> - not likely - and if archiving is optional, then it wouldn't be possible to replicate at all.
14:32:40 <ericvelleman> q?
14:32:42 <Kathy> Eric:  what is needed to make it replicable
14:33:13 <Kathy> q+
14:33:29 <kerstin> don't have any idea about what "Check pages from the sample using the specified sets or sources of techniques" exactly means
14:34:53 <MartijnHoutepen> ack kathy
14:36:09 <Mike_Elledge> q+
14:37:43 <Kathy> Mike:  matter of degree, people will be reluctant to list the protocol followed
14:38:35 <Kathy> Mike:  how explicit does this need to be.  Some of this is subjective
14:39:18 <MartijnHoutepen> q+
14:39:23 <MartijnHoutepen> q- Mike
14:39:25 <Kathy> Eric:  started defining a flow chart but there are so many possibities.  Hard to define
14:39:39 <Sarah_Swierenga> q+
14:39:53 <ericvelleman> q?
14:39:55 <MartijnHoutepen> ack me
14:40:31 <Kathy> Martijn:  if need to be replicable you would need to record all the details
14:41:00 <MartijnHoutepen> ack Sarah
14:41:58 <Kathy> Sarah: If it is optional then it will be ignored by most evaluators.  All about how to do a WCAG 2.0 evaluation.  This is time consuming plus gives other the inside view of how to do the work
14:42:04 <ericvelleman> q?
14:42:34 <Kathy> Eric: Not convinced that we should not have more details
14:42:56 <Kathy> Eric:  what about saying we need to review the complete process
14:43:09 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, mute me
14:43:09 <Zakim> MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
14:43:24 <Mike_Elledge> Scribe's perogative?  :^)
14:44:50 <Kathy> Kathy:  could give some options for approaches
14:44:52 <ericvelleman> q?
14:45:15 <Sarah_Swierenga> q+
14:45:19 <Kathy> Eric:  should we give people more detail on how to use WCAG 2.0
14:45:35 <Kathy> Tim:  are there principles of auditing
14:45:42 <ericvelleman> q?
14:46:06 <Kathy> Eric:  Can we come up with an ideal set of steps
14:46:39 <Kathy> Sarah:  this may be the place where we can talk about automated tools, keyboard only etc.
14:47:04 <Kathy> Eric:  Depends on context and use cases defined
14:47:19 <ericvelleman> q?
14:47:20 <kerstin> q+
14:47:23 <Kathy> Eric:  we need high-level principles
14:47:29 <MartijnHoutepen> q- Sarah
14:47:39 <kerstin> zakim, unmute me
14:47:39 <Zakim> Kerstin should no longer be muted
14:47:45 <MartijnHoutepen> ack Kerstin
14:48:34 <Kathy> Kerstin:  This is important. Some items better to check later
14:48:52 <kerstin> zakim, mute me
14:48:52 <Zakim> Kerstin should now be muted
14:49:04 <Kathy> Eric:  this is why maybe having a step by step approach.  Some items can be easier to do later
14:49:09 <kerstin> zakim, unmute me
14:49:09 <Zakim> Kerstin should no longer be muted
14:49:23 <Kathy> Kerstin:  we should try to define it
14:49:29 <kerstin> zakim, mute me
14:49:29 <Zakim> Kerstin should now be muted
14:49:33 <Kathy> Eric:  I will try to add this
14:49:53 <Kathy> Eric:  send examples through the list
14:50:24 <Kathy> Eric:  will start working on Step 5 - by Monday will have text in the section
14:50:43 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, take up next
14:50:43 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Next editor draft" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
14:50:45 <Kathy> Eric:  Any other issues?
14:50:55 <MartijnHoutepen> Zakim, close agendum 2
14:50:55 <Zakim> agendum 2, Next editor draft, closed
14:50:56 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
14:50:56 <Zakim> 3. other [from MartijnHoutepen]
14:51:15 <kerstin> bye
14:51:17 <MartijnHoutepen> ack me
14:51:18 <Zakim> -Tim_Boland
14:51:18 <Zakim> -Don
14:51:20 <Zakim> -Liz
14:51:20 <Mike_Elledge> bye!
14:51:21 <Zakim> -Sarah_Swierenga
14:51:22 <Sarah_Swierenga> bye
14:51:26 <Zakim> -korn
14:51:31 <Zakim> -Kerstin
14:51:33 <Zakim> -Kathy
14:51:35 <Zakim> -Mike
14:51:46 <MartijnHoutepen> trackbot, end meeting
14:51:46 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
14:51:46 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +31.30.239.aaaa, MartijnHoutepen, +1.978.443.aabb, Kathy, +1.520.271.aacc, Don, +1.301.975.aadd, Liz, +31.30.239.aaee, ericvelleman,
14:51:50 <Zakim> ... +1.978.562.aaff, korn, +1.517.432.aagg, Moe, +1.517.353.aahh, Mike, Sarah_Swierenga, Kerstin, Tim_Boland
14:51:50 <Zakim> -Moe
14:51:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:51:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/12-eval-minutes.html trackbot
14:51:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
14:51:55 <RRSAgent> I see no action items