IRC log of eval on 2012-04-12
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 12:24:51 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #eval
- 12:24:51 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/12-eval-irc
- 12:24:53 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs world
- 12:24:53 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #eval
- 12:24:55 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be 3825
- 12:24:55 [Zakim]
- I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
- 12:24:56 [trackbot]
- Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
- 12:24:57 [trackbot]
- Date: 12 April 2012
- 12:25:13 [shadi]
- chair: Eric
- 12:25:25 [shadi]
- zakim, whis will be eval
- 12:25:25 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'whis will be eval', shadi
- 12:25:39 [shadi]
- zakim, whis will be 3825
- 12:25:39 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'whis will be 3825', shadi
- 12:25:52 [shadi]
- zakim, this will be eval
- 12:25:52 [Zakim]
- I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, shadi
- 13:08:39 [Moe]
- Moe has joined #eval
- 13:49:20 [MartijnHoutepen]
- MartijnHoutepen has joined #eval
- 13:49:50 [MartijnHoutepen]
- trackbot, start meeting
- 13:49:53 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs world
- 13:49:55 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be 3825
- 13:49:55 [Zakim]
- ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
- 13:49:56 [trackbot]
- Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference
- 13:49:56 [trackbot]
- Date: 12 April 2012
- 13:51:22 [Kathy]
- Kathy has joined #eval
- 13:51:25 [Detlev]
- Detlev has joined #eval
- 13:52:28 [Detlev]
- Just present via IRC, intermittentlu...
- 13:52:43 [Zakim]
- WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started
- 13:52:52 [Zakim]
- + +31.30.239.aaaa
- 13:53:08 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, aaaa is me
- 13:53:08 [Zakim]
- +MartijnHoutepen; got it
- 13:54:55 [Zakim]
- + +1.978.443.aabb
- 13:55:37 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, aabb is Kathy
- 13:55:37 [Zakim]
- +Kathy; got it
- 13:55:59 [Detlev]
- Not many folks around today...
- 13:56:26 [MartijnHoutepen]
- No, not yet
- 13:56:41 [Detlev]
- I'm in a meeting, can't call in, will just follow via IRC
- 13:56:58 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Ok
- 13:57:38 [Zakim]
- + +1.520.271.aacc
- 13:58:04 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, aacc is Don
- 13:58:04 [Zakim]
- +Don; got it
- 13:59:13 [korn]
- korn has joined #eval
- 13:59:41 [Liz]
- Liz has joined #eval
- 14:00:20 [Zakim]
- + +1.301.975.aadd
- 14:00:41 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, aadd is Liz
- 14:00:41 [Zakim]
- +Liz; got it
- 14:00:56 [Zakim]
- + +31.30.239.aaee
- 14:01:28 [Zakim]
- +[Oracle]
- 14:01:51 [ericvelleman]
- ericvelleman has joined #eval
- 14:02:02 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, aaee is ericvelleman
- 14:02:02 [Zakim]
- +ericvelleman; got it
- 14:02:08 [Zakim]
- + +1.978.562.aaff
- 14:02:13 [Sarah_Swierenga]
- Sarah_Swierenga has joined #eval
- 14:02:36 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, [Oracle] is korn
- 14:02:36 [Zakim]
- +korn; got it
- 14:02:49 [Zakim]
- + +1.517.432.aagg
- 14:02:49 [Moe]
- Moe has joined #eval
- 14:03:07 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, aaff is Moe
- 14:03:07 [Zakim]
- +Moe; got it
- 14:03:41 [MartijnHoutepen]
- scribe:Kathy
- 14:04:10 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, agenda?
- 14:04:10 [Zakim]
- I see nothing on the agenda
- 14:04:44 [Mike_Elledge]
- Mike_Elledge has joined #eval
- 14:04:45 [Kathy]
- Eric: New editor version available
- 14:04:58 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, agenda+ New comments
- 14:04:58 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 added
- 14:05:13 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, agenda+ Next editor draft
- 14:05:13 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 added
- 14:05:22 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, agenda+ other
- 14:05:22 [Zakim]
- agendum 3 added
- 14:05:31 [Kathy]
- Eric: There is still only two comments on the mailing list. If you are on social media, please point people to the document
- 14:05:32 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, take up next
- 14:05:32 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "New comments" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
- 14:05:36 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, take up next
- 14:05:36 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 was just opened, MartijnHoutepen
- 14:05:47 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, close agendum 1
- 14:05:47 [Zakim]
- agendum 1, New comments, closed
- 14:05:48 [Zakim]
- I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 14:05:48 [Zakim]
- 2. Next editor draft [from MartijnHoutepen]
- 14:05:52 [Zakim]
- + +1.517.353.aahh
- 14:06:13 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, mute me
- 14:06:13 [Zakim]
- MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
- 14:06:19 [Kathy]
- Eric: Here is the new version: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/methodology/. Eric will work on the use cases section and will include items from this meeting
- 14:06:25 [Kathy]
- zakim, mute me
- 14:06:25 [Zakim]
- Kathy should now be muted
- 14:06:27 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, aahh is Mike
- 14:06:27 [Zakim]
- +Mike; got it
- 14:07:00 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, aagg is Sarah_Swierenga
- 14:07:00 [Zakim]
- +Sarah_Swierenga; got it
- 14:07:15 [Kathy]
- Eric: Step 4 - tried to keep the text as short as possible. Requirements has been added
- 14:08:39 [Kathy]
- Peter: Requirement 4c Does the accessibility supported techniques is that connected to tools used in 4a
- 14:09:32 [Kathy]
- Eric: It is all connected to previous sections including step 2 & 3 and 4.
- 14:10:08 [Zakim]
- +??P28
- 14:10:46 [kerstin]
- kerstin has joined #eval
- 14:10:56 [Kathy]
- Peter: Wondering if there should be a reference in 4c to the tools used
- 14:11:02 [kerstin]
- zakim, mute me
- 14:11:02 [Zakim]
- sorry, kerstin, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
- 14:11:06 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, ??P28 is Kerstin
- 14:11:06 [Zakim]
- +Kerstin; got it
- 14:11:14 [kerstin]
- zakim, mute me
- 14:11:14 [Zakim]
- Kerstin should now be muted
- 14:11:26 [Kathy]
- Eric: recording the tools allows others to reproduce the results
- 14:11:27 [kerstin]
- thanks Martijn
- 14:11:35 [MartijnHoutepen]
- no problem
- 14:12:39 [Kathy]
- Peter: Should we give people more guideance on the tools used
- 14:13:48 [Kathy]
- Eric: The tools include browsers, assistive technology and other plugins. This would be defined in 1d. In step 2, you include pages
- 14:14:24 [Mike_Elledge]
- q+
- 14:14:38 [Kathy]
- Peter: the editor note should be included in the text (4d)
- 14:14:43 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:14:51 [Kathy]
- Eric: will add this
- 14:16:09 [Kathy]
- Mike: We should not telling people what tools they should use for evaluation but tools used should be recorded. It is covered under WCAG 2.0
- 14:16:42 [Kathy]
- Eric: we should record what was used, this is in step 4e
- 14:17:15 [Kathy]
- Eric: it is up to the evaluator to decide what tools they will use
- 14:17:37 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:17:56 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, q- Mike
- 14:17:56 [Zakim]
- I see no one on the speaker queue
- 14:18:12 [Kathy]
- Eric: Is anything missing from these steps
- 14:18:30 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:18:36 [korn]
- q+
- 14:19:03 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ack korn
- 14:19:32 [Kathy]
- Peter: Archiving section - web application may need a lot more information. You cannot archive URLS. Order of entry and data entered is important
- 14:19:54 [Kathy]
- Peter: More information will need to be recorded - what they did and what happened
- 14:20:06 [Kathy]
- Eric: This is 4d
- 14:20:15 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:21:22 [Mike_Elledge]
- q+
- 14:21:27 [Kathy]
- Eric - Can you get screen shots?
- 14:21:53 [Kathy]
- Peter - Good idea but it may not be possible in all situations. Should not be required
- 14:22:12 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:22:19 [Kathy]
- Eric - How much description should we have?
- 14:22:42 [Kathy]
- Peter: Not much more, just a bit more about steps
- 14:23:28 [Kathy]
- Mike: It will depend on what you are evaluation and client expectations. May be just a list of pages checked. If there is complicated steps then it will vary
- 14:23:32 [Sarah_Swierenga]
- q+
- 14:23:52 [Kathy]
- Eric: Let's go back to 4a
- 14:24:11 [Kathy]
- Eric: Will work in the details from the mailing list in 4a
- 14:24:19 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:24:33 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, q- Mike
- 14:24:33 [Zakim]
- I see Sarah_Swierenga on the speaker queue
- 14:24:38 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ack Sarah
- 14:25:12 [Kathy]
- Sarah: Do we need screen shots from all browsers and conditions?
- 14:25:41 [korn]
- q+
- 14:25:55 [Moe]
- q+
- 14:26:23 [Kathy]
- Eric: This is optional. Not sure what is the minimal information needed for recording
- 14:26:25 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ack korn
- 14:26:25 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:26:47 [Tim]
- Tim has joined #eval
- 14:27:44 [Kathy]
- Peter: In 1d we tell users to select the minimum set of web browsers and assistive technology. We may want to say as selected in rather than defined in
- 14:28:07 [Kathy]
- Moe: Caution the use of screenshots. Low vision users find these difficult
- 14:28:31 [Sarah_Swierenga]
- q+
- 14:28:33 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:28:39 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ack moe
- 14:28:44 [Kathy]
- Eric: We should have more than just screen shots and maybe we should have steps so that screen shot is complementary
- 14:28:56 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ack Sarah
- 14:29:01 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:29:33 [Kathy]
- Sarah: screen shots should be supplemental. Really need the steps and what you entered
- 14:29:56 [Kathy]
- Sarah: To what extend does this need to be replicable
- 14:30:04 [Zakim]
- +Tim_Boland
- 14:30:09 [Kathy]
- Eric: The results shoudl be comparable
- 14:30:24 [Kathy]
- Eric: so it is what is needed to accomplish this goal
- 14:30:28 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:31:01 [Kathy]
- ack me
- 14:31:21 [Kathy]
- Peter: Not likely
- 14:31:56 [Kathy]
- Eric: We need to include this in section 4
- 14:32:19 [Sarah_Swierenga]
- - not likely - and if archiving is optional, then it wouldn't be possible to replicate at all.
- 14:32:40 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:32:42 [Kathy]
- Eric: what is needed to make it replicable
- 14:33:13 [Kathy]
- q+
- 14:33:29 [kerstin]
- don't have any idea about what "Check pages from the sample using the specified sets or sources of techniques" exactly means
- 14:34:53 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ack kathy
- 14:36:09 [Mike_Elledge]
- q+
- 14:37:43 [Kathy]
- Mike: matter of degree, people will be reluctant to list the protocol followed
- 14:38:35 [Kathy]
- Mike: how explicit does this need to be. Some of this is subjective
- 14:39:18 [MartijnHoutepen]
- q+
- 14:39:23 [MartijnHoutepen]
- q- Mike
- 14:39:25 [Kathy]
- Eric: started defining a flow chart but there are so many possibities. Hard to define
- 14:39:39 [Sarah_Swierenga]
- q+
- 14:39:53 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:39:55 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ack me
- 14:40:31 [Kathy]
- Martijn: if need to be replicable you would need to record all the details
- 14:41:00 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ack Sarah
- 14:41:58 [Kathy]
- Sarah: If it is optional then it will be ignored by most evaluators. All about how to do a WCAG 2.0 evaluation. This is time consuming plus gives other the inside view of how to do the work
- 14:42:04 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:42:34 [Kathy]
- Eric: Not convinced that we should not have more details
- 14:42:56 [Kathy]
- Eric: what about saying we need to review the complete process
- 14:43:09 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, mute me
- 14:43:09 [Zakim]
- MartijnHoutepen should now be muted
- 14:43:24 [Mike_Elledge]
- Scribe's perogative? :^)
- 14:44:50 [Kathy]
- Kathy: could give some options for approaches
- 14:44:52 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:45:15 [Sarah_Swierenga]
- q+
- 14:45:19 [Kathy]
- Eric: should we give people more detail on how to use WCAG 2.0
- 14:45:35 [Kathy]
- Tim: are there principles of auditing
- 14:45:42 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:46:06 [Kathy]
- Eric: Can we come up with an ideal set of steps
- 14:46:39 [Kathy]
- Sarah: this may be the place where we can talk about automated tools, keyboard only etc.
- 14:47:04 [Kathy]
- Eric: Depends on context and use cases defined
- 14:47:19 [ericvelleman]
- q?
- 14:47:20 [kerstin]
- q+
- 14:47:23 [Kathy]
- Eric: we need high-level principles
- 14:47:29 [MartijnHoutepen]
- q- Sarah
- 14:47:39 [kerstin]
- zakim, unmute me
- 14:47:39 [Zakim]
- Kerstin should no longer be muted
- 14:47:45 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ack Kerstin
- 14:48:34 [Kathy]
- Kerstin: This is important. Some items better to check later
- 14:48:52 [kerstin]
- zakim, mute me
- 14:48:52 [Zakim]
- Kerstin should now be muted
- 14:49:04 [Kathy]
- Eric: this is why maybe having a step by step approach. Some items can be easier to do later
- 14:49:09 [kerstin]
- zakim, unmute me
- 14:49:09 [Zakim]
- Kerstin should no longer be muted
- 14:49:23 [Kathy]
- Kerstin: we should try to define it
- 14:49:29 [kerstin]
- zakim, mute me
- 14:49:29 [Zakim]
- Kerstin should now be muted
- 14:49:33 [Kathy]
- Eric: I will try to add this
- 14:49:53 [Kathy]
- Eric: send examples through the list
- 14:50:24 [Kathy]
- Eric: will start working on Step 5 - by Monday will have text in the section
- 14:50:43 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, take up next
- 14:50:43 [Zakim]
- agendum 2. "Next editor draft" taken up [from MartijnHoutepen]
- 14:50:45 [Kathy]
- Eric: Any other issues?
- 14:50:55 [MartijnHoutepen]
- Zakim, close agendum 2
- 14:50:55 [Zakim]
- agendum 2, Next editor draft, closed
- 14:50:56 [Zakim]
- I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
- 14:50:56 [Zakim]
- 3. other [from MartijnHoutepen]
- 14:51:15 [kerstin]
- bye
- 14:51:17 [MartijnHoutepen]
- ack me
- 14:51:18 [Zakim]
- -Tim_Boland
- 14:51:18 [Zakim]
- -Don
- 14:51:20 [Zakim]
- -Liz
- 14:51:20 [Mike_Elledge]
- bye!
- 14:51:21 [Zakim]
- -Sarah_Swierenga
- 14:51:22 [Sarah_Swierenga]
- bye
- 14:51:26 [Zakim]
- -korn
- 14:51:31 [Zakim]
- -Kerstin
- 14:51:33 [Zakim]
- -Kathy
- 14:51:35 [Zakim]
- -Mike
- 14:51:46 [MartijnHoutepen]
- trackbot, end meeting
- 14:51:46 [trackbot]
- Zakim, list attendees
- 14:51:46 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been +31.30.239.aaaa, MartijnHoutepen, +1.978.443.aabb, Kathy, +1.520.271.aacc, Don, +1.301.975.aadd, Liz, +31.30.239.aaee, ericvelleman,
- 14:51:50 [Zakim]
- ... +1.978.562.aaff, korn, +1.517.432.aagg, Moe, +1.517.353.aahh, Mike, Sarah_Swierenga, Kerstin, Tim_Boland
- 14:51:50 [Zakim]
- -Moe
- 14:51:54 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- 14:51:54 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/12-eval-minutes.html trackbot
- 14:51:55 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 14:51:55 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items