IRC log of eval on 2012-04-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:48:49 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #eval

13:48:49 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/05-eval-irc

13:48:51 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

13:48:51 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #eval

13:48:53 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 3825

13:48:53 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes

13:48:54 [trackbot]

Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference

13:48:54 [trackbot]

Date: 05 April 2012

13:53:24 [Detlev]

Detlev has joined #eval

13:54:51 [Kathy]

Kathy has joined #eval

13:55:48 [Zakim]

WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started

13:55:55 [Zakim]

+ +1.978.443.aaaa

13:56:17 [vivienne]

vivienne has joined #eval

13:56:21 [Zakim]

+ +31.30.239.aabb

13:56:28 [Kathy]

zakim, aaaa is Kathy

13:56:28 [Zakim]

+Kathy; got it

13:56:30 [Zakim]

+Shadi

13:56:45 [MartijnHoutepen]

MartijnHoutepen has joined #eval

13:57:01 [shadi]

zakim, aabb is Martijn

13:57:01 [Zakim]

+Martijn; got it

13:57:34 [Zakim]

+??P11

13:57:38 [vivienne]

zakim, P11 is me

13:57:38 [Zakim]

sorry, vivienne, I do not recognize a party named 'P11'

13:57:48 [vivienne]

zakim, ??P11 is me

13:57:48 [Zakim]

+vivienne; got it

13:58:38 [shadi]

zakim, pick a victim

13:58:45 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Martijn

13:58:48 [ericvelleman]

ericvelleman has joined #eval

13:59:13 [Zakim]

+ +1.520.271.aacc

13:59:30 [shadi]

zakim, aacc is Don

13:59:37 [Zakim]

+Don; got it

13:59:53 [Zakim]

+ +31.30.239.aadd

13:59:56 [MartijnHoutepen]

Zakim, mute me

14:00:00 [Zakim]

sorry, MartijnHoutepen, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

14:00:15 [shadi]

zakim, aadd is Eric

14:00:15 [MartijnHoutepen]

Zakim, Martijn is really MartijnHoutepen

14:00:24 [Zakim]

+Eric; got it

14:00:25 [Zakim]

+MartijnHoutepen; got it

14:00:29 [MartijnHoutepen]

Zakim, mute me

14:00:31 [Zakim]

+ +1.978.562.aaee

14:00:38 [Zakim]

MartijnHoutepen should now be muted

14:00:43 [shadi]

zakim, aaee is Moe

14:00:43 [Zakim]

+Moe; got it

14:00:47 [Zakim]

+ +49.404.318.aaff

14:01:17 [Detlev]

Zakim, aff is Detlev

14:01:21 [shadi]

zakim, aaff Detlev

14:01:25 [Zakim]

sorry, Detlev, I do not recognize a party named 'aff'

14:01:30 [Sarah_Swierenga]

Sarah_Swierenga has joined #eval

14:01:34 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'aaff Detlev', shadi

14:01:36 [shadi]

scribe: Martijn

14:01:38 [korn]

korn has joined #eval

14:01:42 [Detlev]

zakim, aaff is Detlev

14:01:43 [shadi]

scribenick: MartijnHoutepen

14:02:01 [Zakim]

+Detlev; got it

14:02:24 [shadi]

zakim, mute me

14:02:29 [Zakim]

+ +1.517.353.aagg

14:02:33 [Kathy]

zakim, mute me

14:02:45 [shadi]

ack me

14:02:51 [Zakim]

Shadi should now be muted

14:02:52 [vivienne]

zakim, mute me

14:02:57 [Zakim]

+ +1.517.432.aahh

14:03:00 [Zakim]

Kathy should now be muted

14:03:03 [vivienne]

zakim, mute me

14:03:09 [Detlev]

zakim, mute me

14:03:13 [Zakim]

vivienne should now be muted

14:03:20 [vivienne]

shadi, are our logins mixed up?

14:03:21 [Zakim]

vivienne was already muted, vivienne

14:03:25 [Zakim]

Detlev should now be muted

14:03:32 [Mike_Elledge]

Mike_Elledge has joined #eval

14:03:33 [shadi]

zakim, aagg is Sarah

14:03:39 [Zakim]

+Sarah; got it

14:03:43 [shadi]

zakim, aahh is Mike

14:03:49 [Zakim]

+Mike; got it

14:04:10 [MartijnHoutepen]

Eric: Welcome, we have some new members, Peter Korn, Moe,

14:04:25 [shadi]

zakim, mute me

14:04:27 [Zakim]

+[Oracle]

14:04:45 [shadi]

zakim, oracle is Peter

14:05:00 [Zakim]

Shadi should now be muted

14:05:30 [Zakim]

+Peter; got it

14:05:39 [MartijnHoutepen]

Moe: I work at IBM accessibility center, consulting, training & testing accessibility

14:07:22 [MartijnHoutepen]

Peter: Oracle accessibility architect, originally from Sun, interested in WCAG/W3C and section 508

14:07:48 [shadi]

ack me

14:08:02 [shadi]

http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=48225&public=1

14:10:28 [shadi]

zakim, mute me

14:10:48 [Zakim]

Shadi should now be muted

14:11:37 [MartijnHoutepen]

Eric: looking at public comments mail archive, only 2 received

14:12:14 [MartijnHoutepen]

E: maybe more to the end of april

14:12:34 [Zakim]

+ +1.703.272.aaii

14:13:00 [shadi]

zakim, aaii is Katie

14:13:00 [Zakim]

+Katie; got it

14:13:18 [MartijnHoutepen]

E: If we have a lot of comments we will need a system to work on the comments, if it is not to much we will use a plain html table

14:13:56 [Ryladog]

Ryladog has joined #eval

14:14:36 [MartijnHoutepen]

E: we will start working on document as is, after 27th april we will process comments

14:14:58 [MartijnHoutepen]

E: hope to have a new draft in 2 months

14:16:39 [MartijnHoutepen]

E: new editor draft not yet up, need more input to fill section 4 and 5, discussion on the list on section headings

14:16:59 [ericvelleman]

http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG-EM/

14:17:33 [shadi]

http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-WCAG-EM-20120327/#step4

14:18:57 [MartijnHoutepen]

E: discussion on assistive technology on the list, input needed on step 4a check for the Broadest Variety of Use Cases

14:19:21 [Ryladog]

q+

14:19:51 [ericvelleman]

q?

14:20:04 [shadi]

ack Ryladog

14:20:58 [EvalTF]

EvalTF has joined #eval

14:21:26 [MartijnHoutepen]

Katie: start by identifying primary use case, there may be more purposes beyond that,

14:21:32 [shadi]

q+

14:21:37 [korn]

q+

14:21:47 [Moe]

Moe has joined #eval

14:21:59 [shadi]

ack me

14:22:06 [MartijnHoutepen]

Katie: after primary use case define broadest variety

14:22:51 [shadi]

zakim, mute me

14:22:51 [Zakim]

Shadi should now be muted

14:22:51 [MartijnHoutepen]

shadi: step4a relates to 1d, is it internal or public or mobile site, also relates 2b where we select key functionalities

14:23:02 [MartijnHoutepen]

Katie: refer to those sections

14:23:19 [shadi]

ak peter

14:23:25 [shadi]

ack peter

14:23:31 [shadi]

ack korn

14:23:34 [Mike_Elledge]

q+

14:23:52 [Kathy]

q+

14:24:06 [MartijnHoutepen]

Peter: what does use case mean when we shift from website to webapplication? is styling in an online texteditor a use case?

14:24:24 [ericvelleman]

q?

14:25:46 [MartijnHoutepen]

Katie: could you phrase this as a question in the steps?

14:26:58 [shadi]

q+

14:28:04 [MartijnHoutepen]

Peter: i am worried on how this translates to webapplications, some accessibility issues are less important than others, but can be critical in (non-)conformance

14:29:47 [MartijnHoutepen]

Peter: maybe reporting could include impact of problems

14:31:00 [shadi]

ack mike

14:31:44 [Detlev]

q+

14:32:09 [MartijnHoutepen]

Mike: should we be considering different use scenarios?

14:33:42 [Detlev]

'scenario' could be quite confusing - sounds close to 'use case'

14:34:05 [Kathy]

ack me

14:34:24 [MartijnHoutepen]

E: @mike could you elaborate on the difference between scenarios and use cases on the list

14:35:25 [Detlev]

q-

14:36:03 [MartijnHoutepen]

Kathy: user stories more important in agile development model, we need to be careful to explain all flavours of user stories

14:36:48 [shadi]

ack me

14:36:59 [Kathy]

zakim, mute me

14:36:59 [Zakim]

Kathy should now be muted

14:38:35 [shadi]

zakim, mute me

14:38:35 [Zakim]

Shadi should now be muted

14:38:59 [MartijnHoutepen]

shadi: I like this direction. To go back to Peters case: accessibility issues are the same on websites or webapplications,

14:39:30 [MartijnHoutepen]

shadi: we shouldn't make the difference, up to manager to read into findings

14:40:38 [Detlev]

q+

14:40:39 [MartijnHoutepen]

peter: features of an application are different then the distuingishment between use cases,

14:41:45 [MartijnHoutepen]

Eric: would be interesting for evaluators to have a method to define primary use case

14:41:52 [ericvelleman]

q?

14:41:54 [Detlev]

ack me

14:42:50 [Ryladog]

q+

14:43:10 [MartijnHoutepen]

Detlev: issue on claiming conformance using this methodology, similar problem arises when sampling

14:43:40 [MartijnHoutepen]

D: all features of an application are part of the use case of using the application

14:44:32 [MartijnHoutepen]

D: I think it is benificial to claim conformance while not being totally conformant, if you point out the issues

14:45:28 [MartijnHoutepen]

Eric: not up to evaluator to decide if error is important, this is up to the manager

14:46:22 [MartijnHoutepen]

D: you will then never reach conformance

14:47:08 [Detlev]

Zakim, mute me

14:47:08 [Zakim]

Detlev should now be muted

14:47:22 [MartijnHoutepen]

Katie: we need to identify what was accessible and what wasn't, conformance claim will point to what has been evaluated

14:47:46 [Detlev]

q+

14:48:05 [Detlev]

ack me

14:48:05 [korn]

q+

14:48:17 [shadi]

ack ryla

14:48:20 [MartijnHoutepen]

K: dependent of company to say: we will be compliant or not. For websites it is important to be precise

14:48:50 [MartijnHoutepen]

D: can you then leave out parts of the website?

14:49:47 [MartijnHoutepen]

D: in a application you couldn't conform because there are too much options to choose

14:50:22 [Detlev]

Zakim, mute me

14:50:22 [Zakim]

Detlev should now be muted

14:50:23 [ericvelleman]

q?

14:50:37 [MartijnHoutepen]

Katie: yes, if you don't evaluate the whole page you can't claim anything

14:51:32 [MartijnHoutepen]

Peter: some website parts are highly dynamics, different data may give different pages and different outcomes of an evaluation

14:53:37 [MartijnHoutepen]

Peter: If the application is too big, the application may be changed while testing

14:54:40 [MartijnHoutepen]

Eric: we have to define boundaries in dynamic websites/applications

14:55:10 [MartijnHoutepen]

Eric: we will focus on a ready product, which we will evaluate

14:55:48 [Ryladog]

Sorry have to leave early

14:55:57 [Zakim]

-Katie

14:56:44 [ericvelleman]

q?

14:56:46 [shadi]

q+

14:56:48 [MartijnHoutepen]

Peter: in reporting we can introduce terms/adjectives separate from conformance (f.e. substantial conformance)

14:56:50 [shadi]

ack korn

14:57:44 [Detlev]

thins something like 'substantial conformance' would be a useful concept

14:59:11 [shadi]

ack me

15:00:54 [MartijnHoutepen]

shadi: if in testing things change, how can determine accessibility, in the documentation y/n is a minimum, but there is optional additional performances scores (section 5d)

15:02:54 [MartijnHoutepen]

eric: new methodology will be up soon (tuesday),

15:03:00 [Zakim]

-Kathy

15:03:35 [MartijnHoutepen]

Eric: more discussion on wrinkles proposed by Peter

15:03:50 [MartijnHoutepen]

Zakim, unmute me

15:03:52 [Mike_Elledge]

Thank--bye

15:04:06 [vivienne]

bye

15:04:08 [MartijnHoutepen]

ok

15:04:12 [ericvelleman]

ericvelleman has left #eval

15:04:19 [MartijnHoutepen]

MartijnHoutepen has left #eval

15:04:30 [Zakim]

MartijnHoutepen should no longer be muted

15:04:42 [Zakim]

-Sarah

15:05:03 [Zakim]

-Don

15:05:07 [Zakim]

-Mike

15:05:15 [Zakim]

-Moe

15:05:21 [Zakim]

-Peter

15:05:23 [Zakim]

-vivienne

15:05:33 [Zakim]

-Shadi

15:05:59 [Zakim]

-Eric

15:06:01 [Zakim]

-Detlev

15:06:31 [Zakim]

-MartijnHoutepen

15:06:36 [korn]

korn has left #eval

15:06:37 [Zakim]

WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended

15:06:41 [Zakim]

Attendees were +1.978.443.aaaa, +31.30.239.aabb, Kathy, Shadi, vivienne, +1.520.271.aacc, Don, +31.30.239.aadd, Eric, MartijnHoutepen, +1.978.562.aaee, Moe, +49.404.318.aaff,

15:06:44 [Zakim]

... Detlev, +1.517.353.aagg, +1.517.432.aahh, Sarah, Mike, Peter, +1.703.272.aaii, Katie

15:13:28 [Moe]

Moe has left #eval

15:45:40 [shadi]

tarckbot, end meeting

15:45:51 [shadi]

trackbot, end meeting

15:45:51 [trackbot]

Zakim, list attendees

15:45:51 [Zakim]

sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is

15:45:59 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

15:45:59 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/05-eval-minutes.html trackbot

15:46:00 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, bye

15:46:00 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items