IRC log of svg on 2012-03-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:00:00 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
20:00:02 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
20:00:02 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #svg
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Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
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ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM scheduled to start now
20:00:05 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:00:05 [trackbot]
Date: 22 March 2012
20:00:55 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has now started
20:01:02 [Zakim]
20:01:06 [heycam]
Zakim, ??P0 is me
20:01:06 [Zakim]
+heycam; got it
20:01:15 [Zakim]
20:01:29 [glenn]
zakim, ??p1 is glenn
20:01:29 [Zakim]
+glenn; got it
20:02:21 [cabanier]
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20:02:28 [glenn]
sorry, was trying to tell zakim to mute me
20:02:32 [glenn]
zakim, mute me
20:02:32 [Zakim]
glenn should now be muted
20:02:51 [Zakim]
20:03:03 [ed]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
20:03:03 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
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20:04:26 [Zakim]
20:04:30 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.832.aaaa
20:04:48 [krit]
krit has joined #svg
20:04:58 [krit]
zakim, who's here?
20:04:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see heycam, glenn (muted), ed, Doug_Schepers, cyril, +1.415.832.aaaa
20:05:07 [krit]
zakim, aaaa is me
20:05:07 [Zakim]
+krit; got it
20:07:20 [heycam]
Zakim, pick a scribe
20:07:20 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose krit
20:07:29 [krit]
scribeNick: krit
20:07:45 [krit]
first topic: telcomtime
20:07:48 [heycam]
20:07:53 [heycam]
s/first //
20:08:02 [krit]
topic: telcomtime
20:08:08 [Zakim]
20:09:14 [heycam]
Zakim, who is making noise?
20:09:29 [Zakim]
heycam, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: heycam (35%), Doug_Schepers (70%)
20:12:29 [krit]
heycam: most might have less problems with proposal 2
20:13:49 [krit]
heycam: suggest to go with 2 than
20:13:55 [krit]
Tav: that's fine with me
20:14:35 [krit]
resolution: telcoms will be at 21: UTC once all people are in summer time
20:15:11 [heycam]
Zakim, mute me
20:15:11 [Zakim]
heycam should now be muted
20:15:14 [heycam]
Zakim, unmute me
20:15:14 [Zakim]
heycam should no longer be muted
20:15:30 [heycam]
Zakim, who is noisy?
20:15:30 [Tav]
zakim, mute me
20:15:30 [Zakim]
Tav should now be muted
20:15:34 [krit]
Zakim, who is making noise?
20:15:44 [shepazu]
Zakim, who's noisy?
20:15:45 [Zakim]
heycam, listening for 14 seconds I heard sound from the following: krit (35%)
20:15:59 [krit]
it was Tav :(
20:16:03 [Zakim]
krit, listening for 16 seconds I heard sound from the following: heycam (45%), Doug_Schepers (42%), krit (9%)
20:16:08 [Tav]
I'll call in again
20:16:15 [Zakim]
shepazu, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: heycam (19%), cyril (71%), krit (14%)
20:16:17 [Zakim]
20:16:35 [krit]
cyril: next week just europe changes
20:16:55 [Zakim]
20:18:27 [krit]
resolution: keep the current time till the end of the month
20:19:11 [krit]
topic: SVG 2.0 require,emts
20:19:23 [krit]
s/topic: SVG 2.0 require,emts/topic: SVG 2.0 requireemts/
20:19:41 [krit]
s/topic: SVG 2.0 require,emts/topic: SVG 2.0 requiremets/
20:20:03 [krit]
cyril: I try to find the link
20:20:09 [cyril]
20:20:56 [krit]
Detect if a mouse event is on the fill or stroke
20:21:27 [krit]
heycam: nice to have
20:22:10 [krit]
heycam: allows us not to duplicate the elements
20:22:40 [krit]
cyril: can we extend mouse events?
20:23:29 [krit]
cyril: be able to regster events only on the stroke, or shape
20:23:34 [krit]
cyril: onstrokeclick
20:23:58 [krit]
heycam: you have to duplicate a lot
20:24:33 [krit]
heycam: thinking more of the dupl. of existing events
20:24:45 [krit]
cyril: might be handy
20:25:18 [krit]
heycam: not sure if i like the idea for the new events
20:25:27 [krit]
ed: makes it harder to deal with pointer events
20:25:49 [krit]
ed: haveing some way of setting where the events came from doesn't sound expesnsive
20:26:08 [krit]
heycam: we could send a mail to the DOM mailing list what people think there
20:26:32 [krit]
Tav: would it be aproblem if you resize a window when you have a border
20:26:39 [krit]
heycam: might be
20:27:46 [krit]
cyril: clikcing on the stroke would give you a feedback what you clicked as well as a point where
20:27:52 [krit]
cyril: stroke or fill
20:28:11 [krit]
heycam: what about isPointOnTheStroke, or isPointOnThe Fill
20:28:28 [krit]
shepazu: feels strange to me
20:28:52 [krit]
shepazu: would not only be fill and strokebut marker as well
20:29:18 [krit]
shepazu: what is the equivalent in CSS? borderoutline or background?
20:29:29 [krit]
heycam: would be on the DOM SVG elements
20:29:38 [krit]
heycam: more like events
20:29:50 [heycam]
onmouseover="if (this.isPointOnStroke(evt.clientX, evt.clientY)) { … }"
20:29:58 [krit]
shepazu: Iam a user I click on the stroke of the circle
20:30:03 [krit]
shepazu: what does the code do?
20:30:17 [krit]
shepazu: that is differen
20:30:38 [krit]
heycam: yes, the example is kind of stupid
20:30:48 [krit]
shepazu: ok, but it looks more interessting to me
20:30:58 [Tav]
s/would it be aproblem if you resize a window/isn't this equivalent to the use case of clicking on a border to resize a window/
20:31:07 [krit]
shepazu: we have get intersection BLA
20:31:33 [ed]
onmouseover="if (this.isPointOnStroke(evt))..." even?
20:31:36 [krit]
shepazu: like getIntersectionList
20:31:39 [heycam]
onmouseover="var markerIndex = this.getIndexOfMarkerThisPointIsOver(evt.clientX, evt.clientY); …"
20:31:56 [krit]
shepazu: it could return which parts of this element does this point hit
20:32:07 [krit]
shepazu: it doesn't have to use an event
20:32:23 [krit]
shepazu: for collistion detection might be useful
20:32:23 [ed]
isPointInPath would be useful too, in this case...
20:33:15 [krit]
shepazu: it might not useful it self, so it might be a rectanlge by size one
20:33:31 [krit]
heycam: we might except it then as a requirement
20:34:01 [krit]
resolution: SVG 2 will make it easier to detect if an mouse event is on the stroke or fill of an element
20:34:21 [cyril]
20:34:34 [krit]
SMIL data feedback
20:34:42 [krit]
cyril: we can look at it
20:34:58 [krit]
heycam: looks like simulation
20:35:16 [cyril]
rrsagent, pointer
20:35:16 [RRSAgent]
20:35:17 [krit]
heycam: seems to be complexed data based input to SMIL animations
20:35:23 [krit]
heycam: might be useful to
20:35:50 [krit]
heycam: give me an action
20:36:30 [krit]
action: heycam will look at data feedback for SMIL and stays in contact with David
20:36:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3251 - Will look at data feedback for SMIL and stays in contact with David [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-03-29].
20:37:04 [krit]
resolution: SVG 2 will not have SMIL data feedback until we accept requirement after clarification
20:37:28 [cyril]
20:37:41 [krit]
cyril: we kind of reolved time container already
20:39:58 [krit]
heycam: We are waiting for Brian about feedback
20:40:09 [krit]
heycam: he might be more aware of the needs
20:40:24 [krit]
heycam: it is likely that he suggest that we have time container in SVG 2
20:41:02 [krit]
cyril: we don't need to resolve it now
20:41:19 [krit]
krit: we should at least have an action to look at it
20:41:30 [krit]
heycam: I talk to Brian till the next telcon
20:41:46 [krit]
cyril: we should move on to the next agenda topic
20:42:03 [cyril]
s/we don't need to resolve it now/if we don't resolve it now, we should discuss the next phase/
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20:42:48 [krit]
topic: SVG 2 next phase
20:42:49 [cyril]
20:42:50 [heycam]
20:43:11 [krit]
cyril: can you summarize?
20:43:25 [krit]
cyril: we have so many requirements, to many for get the spec in time?
20:43:45 [krit]
cyril: we should pick up topics and need to make choices
20:44:13 [krit]
heycam: I agree
20:44:22 [krit]
heycam: discussed that in sydney as well
20:44:34 [krit]
cyril: how many proposals do we expect to proceed
20:44:39 [krit]
cyril: even 0 is a lot
20:44:45 [krit]
20:45:16 [krit]
cyril: working on it to the end of july is really aggressively
20:45:36 [krit]
heycam: how many proposals do we have?
20:45:43 [krit]
cyril: it's in my email
20:45:55 [krit]
cyril: 126?
20:46:28 [krit]
heycam: pick the things you are interessted in and push it forward
20:47:22 [krit]
heycam: we should start a wiki page where people put ther names on the feature
20:47:23 [cyril]
20:48:08 [krit]
cyril: put your name under the feature on the list above
20:48:18 [krit]
heycam: we should have realistic time frames
20:48:44 [krit]
heycam: idea: pick a feature, put your name on it , write the spec, the test
20:50:14 [krit]
heycam: we can speak about it to the next week telcon
20:50:20 [krit]
heycam: the timeframes...
20:50:30 [krit]
cyril: next or in two weeks
20:50:59 [krit]
cyril: need a list of requ. that need a written down proposal
20:52:24 [krit]
krit: what about fixed time frames for discussions on telcoms?
20:52:25 [Zakim]
20:52:47 [Zakim]
20:53:00 [krit]
krit: if a topic takes more time it gets cut off till the next telcom
20:53:06 [krit]
krit: like the CSS WG
20:53:17 [krit]
heycam: Proposals should come on the list first
20:53:24 [krit]
heycam: and discussed there
20:53:41 [krit]
heycam: if needed the discussion is done on the tel com
20:53:58 [krit]
cyril: who owns a feature will decide if it needs discussed on telcom
20:54:20 [krit]
cyril: two people want a feature, how do we decide who gets it?
20:54:28 [krit]
heycam: we should assign on it before
20:54:34 [krit]
heycam: working on it
20:54:46 [krit]
heycam: someone wants to work on it?
20:55:01 [krit]
cyril: sometime you have two different ideas
20:55:03 [krit]
heycam: sure
20:55:22 [krit]
heycam: we should be clear who is driving which feature
20:57:56 [krit]
heycam: get the topics till next week?
20:58:01 [krit]
ed: fine
20:58:08 [krit]
heycam: I send a mail to the list
20:58:41 [krit]
action: heycam will send a mail to the list to put their names to the SVG 2 requirements
20:58:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3252 - Will send a mail to the list to put their names to the SVG 2 requirements [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-03-29].
21:00:11 [krit]
action: Nikos produce a list of requirements that need proposals
21:00:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3253 - Produce a list of requirements that need proposals [on Nikos Andronikos - due 2012-03-29].
21:01:13 [heycam]
ScribeNick: heycam
21:01:26 [heycam]
Topic: css transforms presentation attributes
21:01:37 [heycam]
krit: should the new presentation attributes allow unitless values and scientific notation?
21:01:50 [heycam]
heycam: I think they should
21:02:04 [heycam]
krit: for example transform-origin="100,100"
21:02:06 [heycam]
… I agree
21:02:15 [heycam]
… I wrote some test cases without thinking about, and I wrote unitless values
21:02:22 [heycam]
… I think it's more native for SVG people to use unitless values
21:02:29 [heycam]
… as well as scientific notation
21:02:59 [heycam]
… using user units makes more sense in an SVG context than using px
21:03:09 [heycam]
… so I propose we support both in all presentation attributes
21:03:34 [heycam]
heycam: what is the set of new presentation attributes?
21:03:59 [krit]
21:04:06 [krit]
21:04:28 [heycam]
cyril: so perspective, perspective-origin and transform-origin
21:04:55 [heycam]
heycam: I think authors will expect to be able to use user units
21:04:56 [ed]
also see
21:05:01 [ed]
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21:05:35 [heycam]
ed: issue 2 in that document covers exactly this issue
21:06:02 [heycam]
krit: do we have to specify the syntax in the css spec?
21:06:49 [heycam]
heycam: do you want a link to SVG length/number syntax?
21:07:04 [heycam]
krit: at the moment they are not specified
21:07:28 [krit]
21:07:35 [ed]
21:08:27 [heycam]
heycam: I think it would be better to link or define the syntax of the presentation
21:08:49 [heycam]
heycam: easiest would be to link to <length> and <number> from 1.1's types chapter
21:09:26 [krit]
21:09:28 [heycam]
heycam: the issue 2 in the animation proposal aligns with what we want then, user units allowed in presentation attributes
21:10:14 [heycam]
ed: I assume we would support all of the new types in the presentation attributes
21:10:31 [ed]
21:10:36 [heycam]
heycam: what about calc()?
21:12:16 [heycam]
heycam: just want to be sure the grammar/parser will work with say scientific notation inside calc expressions
21:12:36 [heycam]
ed: I think we should try to stay as close to the css syntax where we can
21:13:00 [heycam]
heycam: do you want to allow unitless values in the middle of calc?
21:13:02 [heycam]
ed: good question
21:13:06 [heycam]
shepazu: I would want to
21:13:11 [heycam]
krit: for webkit it wouldn't be a problem
21:16:37 [Zakim]
21:17:19 [Zakim]
21:17:59 [heycam]
RESOLUTION: SVG WG is happy with allowing unitless numbers and scientific notation in the css transforms presentation attributes
21:18:45 [heycam]
ISSUE: Should we allow unitless numbers and scientific notation inside calc expressions in presentation attributes?
21:18:45 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-2442 - Should we allow unitless numbers and scientific notation inside calc expressions in presentation attributes? ; please complete additional details at .
21:22:32 [heycam]
ACTION: Dirk to mail public-fx about unitless numbers in presentation attributes
21:22:33 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3254 - Mail public-fx about unitless numbers in presentation attributes [on Dirk Schulze - due 2012-03-29].
21:24:51 [heycam]
Topic: intrinsic sizing and percetnage values for inline svg in html
21:24:59 [heycam]
ed: some questions from our layout team about sizing of svg in html
21:25:14 [ed]
21:25:15 [heycam]
… would like to know mozilla's opinion on this given their open bugs
21:25:24 [heycam]
… this needs clarifying in a spec somewhere
21:25:29 [heycam]
21:25:29 [trackbot]
ISSUE-2241 -- 1. Introduction - More explanations about the used coordinate system -- raised
21:25:29 [trackbot]
21:26:12 [heycam]
ed: I think this is specific to where you have percetanges specified, or not specified at all, and whether or not they define an intrinsic size/ratio
21:26:27 [heycam]
… I think it comes down to how you want to resolve the lengths, and tweaking the spec wording to that effect
21:26:37 [heycam]
… reading the mozilla bug, it seems that mozilla went and did something else
21:26:55 [heycam]
… so it would be nice to have something defined in the spec
21:27:03 [heycam]
… we have at least three different behaviours among the 4 browsers
21:27:24 [heycam]
heycam: do you have an opinion on which way to resolve it?
21:27:31 [heycam]
ed: I would prefer if it doesn't break a lot of content, of course
21:27:46 [heycam]
… in the first case what opera/firefox do at the moment would be good
21:27:51 [heycam]
… for the second example, I'm not sure either way
21:28:03 [ed] has more details than the mail
21:28:10 [heycam]
21:28:56 [heycam]
krit: there is a webkit bug about that, so it might be changed a bit
21:29:01 [glenn]
dropping now, have another appt
21:29:06 [Zakim]
21:29:44 [Zakim]
21:30:33 [heycam]
ACTION: Cameron to ask jwatt about the percentage sizing issue
21:30:33 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3255 - Ask jwatt about the percentage sizing issue [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-03-29].
21:31:35 [heycam]
21:31:35 [trackbot]
ACTION-3255 Ask jwatt about the percentage sizing issue notes added
21:32:55 [Zakim]
21:32:57 [Zakim]
21:32:59 [Zakim]
21:33:01 [Zakim]
21:33:08 [heycam]
Chair: Cameron
21:33:12 [heycam]
21:33:13 [Zakim]
21:33:15 [Zakim]
GA_SVGWG(SVG1)4:00PM has ended
21:33:15 [Zakim]
Attendees were heycam, glenn, ed, Doug_Schepers, cyril, +1.415.832.aaaa, krit, Tav
21:33:35 [heycam]
RRSAgent, make minutes
21:33:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate heycam
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