IRC log of html-a11y on 2012-03-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:02:19 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/22-html-a11y-irc

15:02:21 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

15:02:23 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 2119

15:02:24 [trackbot]

Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

15:02:24 [trackbot]

Date: 22 March 2012

15:02:45 [Zakim]

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15:02:49 [MichaelC]

zakim, this is 2119

15:02:50 [janina]

trackbot, start meeting

15:03:08 [janina]

zakim, agenda?

15:03:11 [Zakim]

ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM

15:03:29 [Zakim]

I see nothing on the agenda

15:03:33 [Zakim]

+Cooper

15:03:56 [janina]

Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference

15:03:56 [janina]

Chair: Janina_Sajka

15:03:56 [janina]

agenda+ Clarifications on Issues Raised Last Week

15:03:56 [janina]

agenda+ Longdesc and the New ARIA-DescribedAt

15:03:56 [janina]

agenda+ Proposed CP to Extend Longdesc

15:03:59 [janina]

agenda+ Canvas: Recent Developments & Their Implications

15:04:01 [janina]

agenda+ FYI on Potential Objections & Appeals

15:04:04 [janina]

agenda+ F2F for the TF? Participation at the HTML-WG F2F?

15:04:06 [janina]

agenda+ Other Business

15:04:09 [janina]

agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open

15:04:11 [MichaelC]

zakim, ??P45 is Janina_Sajka

15:04:11 [janina]

agenda+ Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List

15:04:14 [janina]

agenda+ be done

15:04:18 [MichaelC]

zakim, ??P24 is Leif_Halvard_Silli

15:04:44 [Zakim]

+Janina_Sajka; got it

15:04:57 [Zakim]

+Leif_Halvard_Silli; got it

15:05:24 [Zakim]

+Cynthia_Shelly

15:06:23 [Zakim]

-Judy

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15:07:11 [David]

scribe: David

15:07:35 [Zakim]

+Judy

15:08:38 [David]

jb: will text Rcih

15:08:48 [David]

s/Rcih/Rich

15:08:53 [MichaelC]

zakim, next item

15:08:53 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Clarifications on Issues Raised Last Week" taken up [from janina]

15:10:05 [janina]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Mar/0319.html

15:10:53 [David]

Janina: questions came up last week concerned... need to clarify... tf has authority by charter to come to consensus decision and make recommendations... 2 did we come to consensus on longdesc... js sent out uri with charter, and the formal email that js sent notifying us our consensus...

15:12:29 [David]

jb: clarifyies that Mike S last week was not accurate... need to ensure that we do have Charter to make recommendations, developing consensus and make recommendations... many worked hard to reach consensus

15:12:55 [David]

s/ensure/ensure that is is clear that

15:13:20 [David]

jb... rich will join call soon

15:13:55 [richardschwerdtfe]

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15:14:01 [David]

zakim, next item

15:14:01 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Longdesc and the New ARIA-DescribedAt" taken up [from janina]

15:14:22 [Zakim]

+Rich

15:15:17 [David]

js: longdesc and describedAT, quicker to talk about it than email...

15:16:52 [David]

rs... DescribedAT not a proposal... it is a wai aria enhancement of longdesc... not getting in middle of longdesc... not an offical draft, need to follow process, so it's a personal proposal, until approved by aria group... wants to talk to manufacturers... what is different. don't care what it's called

15:17:18 [David]

rs describeda alloies to all elements of host language including SVG etc..

15:19:13 [David]

if we knew atribute was available cold we put it on the video tag... etc... in shoulds... would like to see browsers ... walking into museum with kiosk... could touch a picture of giraffe find out more information... visual indication tat it is present. if so can be acivated and brought up and closed and left the user were they were... problem with longdesc... but never provided that level...

15:19:15 [David]

...of functionality...

15:20:14 [David]

aria up to this point has not been used to tell the browser how to render certain things, so i need to talk to those manufacturers to get their fedback on whether it makes sense to go forward..browser needs to provide a mechanism to bring this up

15:21:27 [David]

js need to think about how we react.... are we still in support of longdesc? describedby has been kicked around need to ask whether to put that to bed...

15:21:52 [David]

jf describedby will not have api

15:23:13 [David]

rs well actually yes... will be in the api... in iaccessible2 query it... and an alternative input device, you could put the activating o the alternate keyboard.l.. onscreen keyboard... it would be exposed to the api... probably can do it uia

15:23:23 [David]

cynthia... yes we could do that in uia

15:23:55 [David]

js should be a visual indication that it is there...

15:24:02 [David]

jf woulc it be hidden

15:24:14 [David]

rs it would be in url

15:24:37 [David]

rs not good in fallback content in canvas

15:24:46 [Zakim]

-Judy

15:24:47 [Zakim]

+Judy

15:25:06 [David]

rs would be fully navigable

15:25:39 [David]

janina let's keep it to strategy...

15:25:54 [janina]

q?

15:25:59 [David]

rs aria is not constrained by timeline of html

15:26:48 [David]

jb interesting... have questions... where is it being designed... in aria space... encourage rs to stay close to aria task force...

15:28:10 [David]

jb html wg side of things... this has been focusing discussion... early implementation ideas, can be problematic before it iws discussed with aria group... is this taking focus away from the longdesc ... doesn't remove need for conformant bridge...

15:28:40 [David]

dialogue has shifted in last few days... percieved as a proposal... what can we do to clarify that we need longdesc

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15:30:42 [David]

rs not taking a public position o longdesc... until aria 1.1 is implemented in browsers... wont' see aria 1.1 until a newerversion of a browser has it... in browsers today longdesc not well supported... fixing longesc will require several... won't see any major changes in FF until about version 15

15:31:05 [David]

can't pull longdesc out now

15:31:55 [David]

jb concerned that we've opened up a big issue with describedat...

15:32:13 [David]

and confused longdesc...

15:32:18 [janina]

q?

15:32:31 [janina]

ack jan

15:33:12 [David]

rs regarding enhancing longdesc... is that going to confuse descibedAT

15:34:17 [David]

jf issue 30, 195, 204, with this issue... timing couldn't be worse... chairs won't make decision because there seems to be active discussion

15:36:21 [David]

cynthiaa shelly the value is it's out of html politics, and it will solve the technical problems, and getting it into aria is better

15:37:49 [Judy]

q+

15:40:18 [David]

jf specific to 195 sylvia asked for extension... rs released wai-aria to issues... propose a resolution including longdesc

15:40:57 [David]

cynthia this is an engineering.... obsolete but conforming longdesc... we should back of of longdesc

15:42:00 [David]

jb obsolete but conforming causes an error flag.... concerned about that

15:42:35 [David]

rs a warning would be a benefit, not an error

15:43:07 [David]

jb thought rs was proposing a conversion path

15:43:43 [David]

janina obsolete but conforming would still require chairs to move on it... it's not in there at all right now

15:43:47 [Judy]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:43:47 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/22-html-a11y-minutes.html Judy

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15:45:14 [David]

zakim/ next item

15:45:29 [David]

zakim /next item

15:46:14 [richardschwerdtfe]

q+

15:46:17 [Zakim]

-John_Foliot

15:46:22 [David]

Leif motivation for proposal to extend longdesc...

15:46:49 [David]

proposes any element that is an image

15:47:08 [janina]

q?

15:47:46 [janina]

ack c

15:48:54 [David]

CS thins its reasonable... from an engineering proposal it's the same as described at, my main propblem with longdesc is that it was underestimated... at the end of the day it's an attribute...

15:48:57 [Judy]

q-

15:49:01 [janina]

ack ja

15:49:07 [janina]

ack ri

15:49:49 [David]

rs to me its a strategy discussion... i would want something that can be applied to other host technologies... i have a consistent set of attributes... that the value of aria

15:50:03 [Zakim]

+John_Foliot

15:50:11 [David]

rs would rather take wai aria approach

15:50:26 [Judy]

rrsagent, make minutes world

15:50:26 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes world', Judy. Try /msg RRSAgent help

15:50:40 [Judy]

rrsagent, make log world

15:51:54 [David]

want something that could be put on a DIV.... there has got to be a path, but don't want browsers to yank it out... so obsolete but conforming would be better... an unofficial draft...

15:52:54 [David]

leif... RS said aria describedAT should be visual indication?

15:52:59 [David]

rs yes

15:53:37 [David]

leif laura's longdesc proposal is saying is should not be a visual indication.

15:55:31 [David]

jf the issue ... cannot expect graphic designer to put something... but that goes back to d link which was unsuccessful... perhaps a user setting in the browser bakes it visual, not a responsibility o the graphic designer...

15:56:22 [David]

js does longdesc continue to be developed, or should designing energy need to go into describedAT.

15:59:16 [David]

jb we should extend 30 minutes... on future meetings...

16:00:03 [David]

topic: canvas

16:00:19 [Judy]

s/extend 30 minutes/extend the meeting to 90 minutes by starting 30 minutes earlier/

16:01:39 [David]

rs ian put in a path proposal into canvas, no discussion... confuses issues... Microsoft won't support... for hit testing, introduces a path.... doesn't help hit testing...

16:03:02 [Judy]

s/underestimated/underspecified/

16:03:20 [David]

rs dom and web components... ian is suggesting you can use another dom... messes up the native host language you are applying that to... even if you had a host language with feathers... alluding to an object model that we haven't seen..

16:03:24 [Zakim]

-John_Foliot

16:04:00 [LeifHSilli]

Note on @Longdesc: I disagree with "obsolete but conforming". May be in HTML6. But not in HTML5. The perspective that we can get @aria-describedAT is a strong reason to only make @longdesc valid for <img>.

16:04:35 [David]

rs ian is making changes without us being able to review them... it's in the WHAT space... concerns me... if it's going to be introduced over here...

16:04:45 [David]

js thinks it's more HTML.next

16:06:28 [David]

Cynthia this wold be a huge project and is beyond Ian... even if was it would take ... year to get it right.... or more... way too big a project in HTML5 timeline

16:06:38 [MichaelC]

chair: Janina_Sajka

16:06:56 [MichaelC]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Mar/0318.html

16:07:01 [MichaelC]

regrets: Laura_Carlson

16:07:11 [MichaelC]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:07:11 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/22-html-a11y-minutes.html MichaelC

16:07:18 [Zakim]

-Judy

16:07:28 [Zakim]

-Cynthia_Shelly

16:07:30 [Zakim]

-Rich

16:07:31 [Zakim]

-Leif_Halvard_Silli

16:07:31 [Zakim]

-Janina_Sajka

16:07:32 [Zakim]

-David_MacDonald

16:07:41 [Zakim]

-Cooper

16:07:42 [Zakim]

WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended

16:07:42 [Zakim]

Attendees were Judy, David_MacDonald, John_Foliot, Cooper, Janina_Sajka, Leif_Halvard_Silli, Cynthia_Shelly, Rich

16:09:42 [janina]

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16:11:13 [MichaelC]

rrsagent, make minutes

16:11:13 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/22-html-a11y-minutes.html MichaelC

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16:50:57 [MichaelC]

zakim, bye

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16:50:59 [MichaelC]

rrsagent, bye

16:50:59 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items