15:57:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-techs-tf
15:57:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/19-html-techs-tf-irc
15:57:14 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log world
15:58:35 <jamesn> meeting: HTML Techniques Task Force
15:58:59 <jamesn> chair: James_Nurthen
16:00:13 <jamesn> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2012JanMar/0100.html
16:00:46 <jamesn> zakim, who is on the call?
16:00:46 <Zakim> WAI_HTML TT()11:30AM has not yet started, jamesn
16:00:47 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, jamesn, MichaelC
16:01:12 <adam> adam has joined #html-techs-tf
16:01:41 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #html-techs-tf
16:02:07 <MichaelC> zakim, this is 9224
16:02:07 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_HTML TT()11:30AM
16:02:29 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:02:29 <MichaelC> zakim, who's on the phone?
16:02:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see James_Nurthen, [IPcaller], [IPcaller.a]
16:02:53 <jamesn> zakim, IPcaller is Loretta
16:02:53 <Zakim> +Loretta; got it
16:03:05 <jamesn> zakim, IPcaller.a is Adam
16:03:05 <Zakim> +Adam; got it
16:03:18 <jamesn> zakim, who is on the call?
16:03:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see James_Nurthen, Loretta, Adam
16:03:41 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #html-techs-tf
16:05:27 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
16:06:34 <Zakim> +Marc_Johlic
16:06:41 <David> David has joined #html-techs-tf
16:07:52 <David> scribe: David
16:08:06 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20120319techs/
16:08:49 <David> issue: Using the track element to provide captions
16:10:42 <David> LGR: Considering track element language vs captions, a subtitle in the same language as video, vs, caption... as an edge case... 
16:12:21 <David> LGR: Sylvia pffifer  read it over no red flags
16:12:46 <David> DM: concerned about confusion between subtitles and captions.
16:13:21 <David> :GR: if you only provide other languages subtitles it wouldnot conform
16:13:40 <David> s/:GR/LGR
16:15:26 <Loretta> This techique would go into the list under item 3 in the Understanding document, that is, Impleenting G87 using the one of the following technology-specific techniques.
16:17:19 <Zakim> -Adam
16:18:18 <David> JN: would G87 be a good place to talk about when Subtitles are OK...
16:18:58 <David> DM: should we leave out subtitles... from description
16:20:40 <David> LGR: will rewrite... not forbidding subtitles, for a talking head...
16:21:47 <David> JN: BBC talks about subtitles for the deaf... (previously mentioned)
16:21:59 <jamesn> notes www.bbc.co.uk/accessibility/guides/subtitles/
16:23:00 <Loretta> Adam, did you have other questions about the test procedure?
16:25:05 <David> LGR: accessibility support...  coming, not there yet... one of the goals of HTML5, we want to make sure that if everything is implemented... Access support affects whether there will be sufficient vs. advisory..
16:25:56 <David> JN: Accessibility support a minor discussion... 
16:26:35 <David> LGR: Concern about accessbility of controls of the video
16:26:42 <David> JN: is it a UA issue
16:27:39 <Zakim> +??P3
16:27:50 <adam> zakim, ??P3 is adam_solomon
16:27:50 <Zakim> +adam_solomon; got it
16:28:05 <David> LRG: constantly shifting accessibility support, which guidelines UA, vs. WCAG.. any controls not accessible would affect inclusion as sufficient...
16:29:01 <David> LGR: HTML5 UA support changing fast... just move forward and go over them before publication.
16:30:30 <Zakim> +Cooper
16:30:51 <David> Adam: is there a way to keep our surveys for that time
16:31:18 <David> lgr: status section of theechniques good place...
16:31:58 <David> jn: open issues section of technique... stuff that needs to be resolved before publication... 
16:32:17 <David> lgr: we should pride links to surveys...
16:32:39 <David> s/pride/provide
16:33:21 <David> mc: will add the section to the template for techniques... to the status section...
16:34:18 <David> s/for techniques/to link to techniques
16:35:19 <David> jn: need to provide a bit of text with link to describe why were linking
16:36:54 <David> topic: Landmarks techiques
16:36:58 <Loretta> Scribe:Loretta
16:37:17 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20120319techs/results#x4000
16:37:50 <marcjohlic> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Using_ARIA_landmarks
16:39:00 <Loretta> agenda?
16:39:26 <Loretta> "Using ARIA Landmarks"
16:39:51 <Loretta> Walking through the comments. David will add versions to user agents, fix somequoting problems in examples.
16:42:16 <Loretta> Looking at James' suggestion to split this into 2 techniques, for 1.3.1 and 2.4.1.
16:43:13 <Loretta> Adam: we would need to see how keyboard support is implemented, to decide whether 2.4.1 is satisfied.
16:43:26 <Loretta> David: splitting the techniques will have a lot of redundancy.
16:44:04 <Loretta> LGR: Our conversations will be less confused if we split into 2 techniques.
16:44:25 <Loretta> David: have we done this before?
16:44:52 <Loretta> Loretta: for headings, but we also received pushback from people who thought it was confusing.
16:45:31 <Loretta> H69 is for 2.4.1 and H4? was for 1.3.1
16:49:59 <Loretta> David: will rework based on these comments.
16:50:28 <Loretta> David: blog discussions are finding the WCAG work confusing, propose setting up other centers of expertise.
16:50:46 <marcjohlic> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#kbd_layout
16:51:33 <Loretta> MJ: also include generic regions?
16:52:07 <Loretta> David: how do we feel about this?
16:52:33 <Loretta> Adam: in techniques, we usually relate to a particular element rather than a set of them.
16:52:57 <Loretta> Loretta: you can mix landmarks and headings.
16:53:20 <Loretta> David: does the use of landmarks require that no content be orphaned?
16:53:57 <jamesn> pinging MichaelC
16:54:00 <Loretta> MJ: probably shouldn't go into the test procedure that all content is contained within a region.
16:54:47 <Loretta> David: what was the intent?
16:55:26 <Loretta> JN: there will be cases where some things aren't in a landmark. e.g. maybe your page with landmarks is included in a page without landmarks
16:55:40 <Loretta> JN: also could have combinations of implicit and explicit landmarks.
16:56:00 <Loretta> JN: there may be some sections that don't need keyboard access via a landmark.
16:56:16 <Loretta> David: sounds like best practice rather than requirement.
16:56:46 <Loretta> JN: nothing in the spec requires that everything be covered by a landmark.
16:57:21 <Loretta> Loretta: suggest making technique title more specific, 'Using ARIA landmarks to ...'
16:58:16 <Loretta> Using ARIA landmarks to identify regions of a page
16:58:17 <David> Using ARIA landmarks to  identify the regions of a page.
16:58:46 <Loretta> Adam: will be postpone the discussion of plugins and user agent support.
16:59:06 <Loretta> David: we'll go forward, assuming UA support, and revisit the question at publication time.
16:59:25 <Zakim> -Cooper
16:59:32 <Loretta> JN: we have a long way to go and things may have changed by the time we publish
16:59:50 <Loretta> Loretta: We should identify what UA support we are expecting.
17:00:16 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #html-techs-tf
17:00:21 <Loretta> JN: I looked at David's FF extension. it is cool.
17:00:38 <Loretta> Daivd: can I install it today?
17:00:53 <Loretta> JN: yes. It takes some work, but I'll submit some changes to it.
17:01:04 <Zakim> +Cooper
17:01:18 <Loretta> JN: check the github page
17:01:20 <Zakim> +Cooper.a
17:01:31 <Zakim> -Cooper.a
17:02:01 <Loretta> Loretta: Adam's question is about how much user agent support is needed.
17:02:34 <David> how bout now
17:02:40 <Loretta> David: our historical requirement was if some ua support was available and free, that was sufficient.
17:05:26 <Loretta> Loretta: yes, we had a very low bar for techniques, but then need to provide lots of information to authors about how to decide whether it works in their target environment.
17:06:06 <Zakim> -adam_solomon
17:08:15 <Zakim> -Cooper
17:08:16 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
17:08:16 <Zakim> -Marc_Johlic
17:08:16 <Zakim> -Loretta
17:08:18 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
17:08:18 <Zakim> WAI_HTML TT()11:30AM has ended
17:08:18 <Zakim> Attendees were James_Nurthen, Loretta, Adam, David_MacDonald, Marc_Johlic, adam_solomon, Cooper, Cooper.a
17:08:27 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:08:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/19-html-techs-tf-minutes.html jamesn
17:22:38 <David> Hi Marc... are you there... question... I'm doing an example custom landmark with region.... any thoughts about a good example label...
17:58:15 <marcjohlic> Hi David - did you see my msg in the other window?
17:58:53 <marcjohlic> Here's an example from our checklist that we use for region landmark:
17:59:02 <marcjohlic> Two region landmark examples are presented below. An aria-label attribute labels one of the regions, and an aria-labelledby labels the other region.
17:59:04 <marcjohlic> <div role="region" aria-label="weather portlet">
17:59:06 <marcjohlic> </div>
17:59:07 <marcjohlic> <div role="region" aria-labelledby="t1">
17:59:09 <marcjohlic> <h1 id="t1">Stock Ticker Portlet</h1>
17:59:11 <marcjohlic> </div>
17:59:13 <marcjohlic> The difference being that the aria-labelledby would be if the label is already visible or in use on the page.
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