16:04:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-wg
16:04:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/15-html-wg-irc
16:04:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:04:34 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be html_wg
16:04:34 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
16:04:35 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
16:04:35 <trackbot> Date: 15 March 2012
16:04:51 <adrianba> TOPIC: ACTION items due by Thursday, March 15
16:04:59 <adrianba> mjs: there are none
16:05:08 <adrianba> TOPIC: New Issues This Week
16:05:20 <adrianba> mjs: there are none - there is still a trackerrequest for a post-LC bug
16:05:27 <adrianba> TOPIC: Items Closed Last Week
16:05:37 <adrianba> ISSUE-170?
16:05:37 <trackbot> ISSUE-170 -- make URIs valid link relations -- open
16:05:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/170
16:05:45 <adrianba> ISSUE-192?
16:05:46 <trackbot> ISSUE-192 -- title attribute definition does not match reality -- open
16:05:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/192
16:05:55 <adrianba> ISSUE-204?
16:05:55 <trackbot> ISSUE-204 -- Exempt ARIA attributes from the rule that prohibits reference to hidden elements -- open
16:05:55 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/204
16:06:01 <adrianba> ScribeNick: adrianba
16:06:16 <adrianba> mjs: for 204 we received a proposal and counter proposal
16:06:21 <adrianba> TOPIC: Items Closing This Week
16:06:25 <adrianba> ISSUE-187?
16:06:25 <trackbot> ISSUE-187 -- Document conformance has to be stable over the time -- open
16:06:25 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/187
16:06:38 <adrianba> mjs: proposal for amicable resolution - only one proposal remains
16:06:42 <adrianba> ... closed with no objections
16:06:48 <adrianba> ISSUE-80?
16:06:48 <trackbot> ISSUE-80 -- document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content -- open
16:06:48 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80
16:07:01 <adrianba> mjs: did not receive a counter proposal so likely to go to CfC soon
16:07:05 <adrianba> ISSUE-131?
16:07:05 <trackbot> ISSUE-131 -- Should we add a caret location API to canvas, or is the focus API sufficient? -- open
16:07:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/131
16:07:10 <adrianba> ISSUE-158?
16:07:10 <trackbot> ISSUE-158 -- HTML4's content-model for <object> should continue -- open
16:07:10 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/158
16:07:19 <Zakim> +hober
16:07:25 <adrianba> ISSUE-205?
16:07:25 <trackbot> ISSUE-205 -- Define what author guidance and/or methods should be provided to those that wish to create accessible text editors using canvas as a rendering surface. -- open
16:07:25 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/205
16:07:33 <adrianba> ISSUE-179?
16:07:33 <trackbot> ISSUE-179 -- {audio,video} require param child (or equivalent) -- open
16:07:33 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/179
16:07:52 <Zakim> +??P8
16:07:56 <adrianba> mjs: call for amicable resolution closes mar 15 - only single change proposal remains
16:08:08 <adrianba> TOPIC: Items Closing Next Week
16:08:12 <adrianba> ISSUE-193?
16:08:12 <trackbot> ISSUE-193 -- Remove CSS example that promotes inaccessible content -- open
16:08:12 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/193
16:08:18 <adrianba> ISSUE-194?
16:08:18 <trackbot> ISSUE-194 -- Provide a mechanism for associating a full transcript with an audio or video element. -- open
16:08:18 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/194
16:08:23 <adrianba> ISSUE-195?
16:08:23 <trackbot> ISSUE-195 -- Enhance http request generation from forms -- open
16:08:23 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/195
16:08:30 <adrianba> ISSUE-196?
16:08:30 <trackbot> ISSUE-196 -- Define user agent http response handling behaviour -- open
16:08:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/196
16:08:40 <adrianba> ISSUE-197?
16:08:41 <trackbot> ISSUE-197 -- Accept attribute should allow file extensions in addition to the current allowed values -- open
16:08:41 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/197
16:08:46 <adrianba> ISSUE-199?
16:08:46 <trackbot> ISSUE-199 -- Define complete processing requirements for ARIA attributes -- open
16:08:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199
16:09:01 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #html-wg
16:09:05 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call mike
16:09:05 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
16:09:05 <adrianba> ISSUE-201?
16:09:05 <trackbot> ISSUE-201 -- Provide canvas location and hit testing capability to fallback content -- open
16:09:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/201
16:09:07 <Zakim> +Mike
16:09:13 <adrianba> ISSUE-190?
16:09:13 <trackbot> ISSUE-190 -- Replace poor coding example for figure with multiple images -- open
16:09:13 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/190
16:09:27 <adrianba> TOPIC: New Calls this week
16:09:33 <adrianba> mjs: there are none
16:09:36 <adrianba> TOPIC: New Surveys this week
16:09:40 <adrianba> mjs: there are none
16:09:44 <adrianba> TOPIC: Decisions this week
16:09:47 <adrianba> mjs: also none
16:09:51 <adrianba> TOPIC: Other Business
16:10:05 <MikeSmith> for the record mikeSmith is on the cal
16:10:14 <MikeSmith> *call
16:10:14 <adrianba> mjs: several other topics to discuss
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16:10:31 <MikeSmith> q?
16:10:54 <adrianba> ... first CfC to publish heartbeat drafts - there were 2 objections but we believe the correct thing to do is to proceed over those objections - this is a WD and does not require consensus
16:11:09 <adrianba> ... working out how to get these published
16:11:14 <MikeSmith> q+ to talk
16:11:40 <paulc> The Chairs decision on the heartbeat publication is in: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Mar/0221.html
16:11:42 <adrianba> MikeSmith: we had some private discussions about the publications
16:11:47 <Zakim> -glenn
16:11:56 <adrianba> ... the chairs were asking me as team contact for the WG to prepare the WDs
16:12:02 <adrianba> ... for publication today
16:12:08 <adrianba> ... i spent a lot of time doing that
16:12:09 <Zakim> +??P0
16:12:18 <glenn> zakim, ??p0 is glenn
16:12:18 <Zakim> +glenn; got it
16:12:18 <Zakim> +Plh
16:12:23 <adrianba> ... but we had some disagreement about two issues
16:12:43 <adrianba> ... around Hixie spec'ing out the behaviour for dialog element
16:13:03 <adrianba> ... change proposal open for 3 months or more
16:13:10 <adrianba> ... all agree that we need to add that
16:13:20 <adrianba> ... second is for allow-popups on iframe sandbox
16:13:37 <adrianba> ... again no disagreement because webkit and IE are already implementing support for that feature
16:13:48 <adrianba> ... don't have much choice but to spec the behaviour that is implemented
16:14:02 <adrianba> ... we don't have the spec for that behaviour because the implementers didn't provide a spec for it
16:14:15 <adrianba> ... and expect that Hixie is supposed to reverse engineer their implementation
16:14:37 <adrianba> ... I think that that is a significant amount of work - not a matter of adding a paragraph of spec text
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16:14:53 <adrianba> ... requires testing and attempting to document what they implemented
16:15:04 <Zakim> +??P11
16:15:11 <adrianba> ... that's a significant amount of work
16:15:12 <janina> zakim, P11 is Janina
16:15:12 <Zakim> sorry, janina, I do not recognize a party named 'P11'
16:15:34 <adrianba> ... WG has decided the spec should include a feature but not assessed the amount of work involved
16:15:55 <adrianba> ... we can't do that and publish today or a week from now
16:15:58 <janina> zakim, ??P11 is Janina
16:15:58 <Zakim> +Janina; got it
16:16:09 <adrianba> ... we have to decide when to publish with that
16:16:28 <adrianba> ... same with dialog - CP is not sufficient for implementers to add the dialog in their browsers
16:16:46 <adrianba> ... so there's a large amount of additional work required to implement those decisions
16:16:54 <adrianba> ... it's not going to happen in a week or two weeks
16:17:20 <adrianba> ... not sure how much time it will take to do this given the other work such as canvas Path work
16:17:37 <adrianba> ... i would love to be able to give a date when we can do that
16:17:39 <paulc> The Chairs are planning to meet after this meeting to discuss this status from Mike.
16:17:42 <adrianba> ... but i can't
16:18:22 <adrianba> ... we have the heartbeat obligation to publish at 3 months and we have the obligation from the decision policy that the editor gets something done in time for us to publish an updated WD along with everything else
16:18:32 <adrianba> ... such as the open accessibility issues
16:18:57 <adrianba> ... i suggest we go ahead and publish without these 2 issues resolved
16:18:58 <adrianba> q+
16:19:04 <adrianba> ack MikeSmith
16:19:04 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to talk
16:19:18 <adrianba> ... i think dialog is a HTML.next feature
16:19:24 <mjs> q+
16:19:34 <adrianba> ... i don't think anyone is demanding that we implement dialog for HTML5
16:19:40 <adrianba> ... do we need it for stable HTML5?
16:19:43 <paulc> q+
16:19:55 <adrianba> ... same thing could be said for allow-popups
16:20:23 <adrianba> ... i don't think this needs to be done in the next 2 months - could be pushed off to the next version of HTML
16:20:52 <adrianba> ... in the meantime we have w3c obligation to publish at regular intervals and we've neglected that for last 6 months or more
16:21:18 <adrianba> ... could still publish WD with lack of dialog and sandbox allow-popups noted as known issues
16:21:28 <adrianba> ... i think holding up publication is a bad idea
16:21:43 <MikeSmith> q?
16:21:45 <adrianba> mjs: like other people to comment
16:22:09 <adrianba> ... chairs need to decide if we publish today without these changes or wait
16:22:19 <adrianba> ... would like to hear input
16:22:28 <Stevef> q+
16:22:35 <mjs> ack adrianba
16:23:21 <MikeSmith> q+ to respond to adrian
16:23:26 <mjs> ack mjs
16:23:38 <adrianba> adrianba: i don't recall seeing a request for more information about the allow-popup sandbox proposal
16:24:04 <adrianba> mjs: i talked to edward about the dialog proposal and i believe he would prefer to see publication without that for the time being
16:24:36 <mark> mark has joined #html-wg
16:24:48 <adrianba> edward: the details missing that prevent the editor completing it are waiting for info from the css wg - i think in the interest of getting heartbeat doc out i'm in favour of publishing
16:24:53 <mjs> ack paulc
16:25:14 <MikeSmith> q+ to say that the current dialog from proposal from ted+hixie is not fully implementable as specified due to ambiguity in the CP
16:25:30 <adrianba> paulc: the chairs have a meeting scheduled after this call to discuss this matter
16:25:50 <adrianba> ... none of the points that mike or ted raised are blocking
16:26:05 <adrianba> ... to tell us after this time that there is a need for more information is a problem
16:26:11 <adrianba> ... suggest we move off this topic and move on
16:26:20 <mjs> ack Stevef 
16:26:57 <adrianba> SteveF: i can't speak to the popup stuff
16:27:21 <adrianba> ... i think we should publish the heartbeat but i disagree that this should be pushed off with no timeframe to html.next - would like to see in html5
16:27:24 <wcarr> q+
16:27:27 <mjs> ack MikeSmith 
16:27:27 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to respond to adrian and to say that the current dialog from proposal from ted+hixie is not fully implementable as specified due to ambiguity in the CP
16:27:31 <adrianba> s/this should/dialog should/
16:28:17 <adrianba> MikeSmith: the current proposal from ted which was put forward in good faith ironically is not sufficient for dialog
16:28:28 <adrianba> ... there are issues around how do we make this work with full screen for example
16:28:41 <paulc> q+
16:28:49 <mjs> q+
16:28:53 <adrianba> ... this is a proposed feature in the platform and we need to make it work with dialog
16:28:59 <adrianba> ... and a number of other features
16:29:07 <adrianba> ... that is blocking for dialog
16:29:27 <adrianba> ... that's a considerable amount of work
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16:31:08 <paulc> I disagree with Mike's assertion that we cannot implement <dialog> due to the need to integrate with another feature.  We should implement and then file bugs to gain that alignment.
16:31:12 <mjs> ack
16:31:20 <mjs> ack wcarr
16:32:05 <adrianba> wcarr: i hope we publish heartbeats as soon as possible and more quickly so they're not behind the ED
16:32:17 <mjs> ack paulc 
16:32:24 <adrianba> ... if we did it more quickly issues like this wouldn't be so important because another would be along within 6 weeks or so
16:33:00 <adrianba> paulc: i disagree strongly with Mike that we can't implement a WG decision because some people think we need to decide how to solve the problem with another immature spec
16:33:14 <adrianba> ... if people think there's a problem becuase it isn't aligned with another feature then they should file bugs
16:33:20 <mjs> ack mjs 
16:33:23 <adrianba> ... but to say we shouldn't move forward is inappropriate
16:33:37 <MikeSmith> q+ to say that many WG decisions are not implentable
16:34:00 <adrianba> mjs: Mike and Ted , you mentioned some issues and Mike you've probably had conversations with Ian about clarifications
16:34:24 <adrianba> ... if you think there are things needing clarification please get it onto the mailing list because people may be able to provide information
16:34:36 <MikeSmith> q?
16:34:39 <adrianba> ... i encourage you to communicate those to the group as a whole
16:34:42 <Stevef> q+
16:34:52 <mjs> ack MikeSmith 
16:34:52 <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say that many WG decisions are not implentable
16:35:37 <adrianba> MikeSmith: as far as WG decisions being implementable i can say as someone who has made a good faith attempt to implement a decision that the CP often do not contain sufficient detail in order to implement anything unambiguously
16:36:22 <adrianba> ... for example, Julian said he intended his proposal to be open-ended about how to make the spec better
16:36:32 <adrianba> ... the CP does not unambigiously document what should be changed
16:36:46 <adrianba> ... chairs agreed that they'll accept the CP because no one objected
16:36:51 <adrianba> ... but it was never implementable
16:37:14 <adrianba> mjs: this should be something to put in the mailing list
16:37:36 <adrianba> MikeSmith: please do not put the responsibility on me for this
16:38:15 <adrianba> mjs: i'm asking for examples on the list and if there are process changes you think would improve things please suggest that
16:38:20 <adrianba> ... please get this in the mailing list
16:38:24 <mjs> ack Stevef 
16:38:26 <adrianba> MikeSmith: thanks, i will do that
16:38:54 <adrianba> SteveF: Hixie adds stuff to the spec all the time that is half formed or does not have agreement or consensus
16:39:11 <adrianba> ... we have dialog that has some consensus so i don't see why it can't be added and then the details worked out
16:39:20 <adrianba> ... chairs and the WG needs to work this out
16:39:35 <adrianba> ... think the argument is spurious that it can't be added because it's not complete
16:39:44 <paulc> +1 to SteveF points
16:39:58 <adrianba> ... menu item for example is in there but hasn't been implemented (except context menu not according to spec)
16:40:06 <adrianba> ... doesn't need to be fully formed to be in the spec
16:40:16 <adrianba> ... not the way Hixie works, why should CPs have to be up to that standard
16:40:32 <adrianba> mjs: thanks for the input on this topic
16:40:42 <adrianba> ... moving on in the interests of time
16:41:12 <adrianba> mjs: CfC on the F2F meeting - no objections on coordinated meeting with HTML and WebApps WG in May in Silicon Valley
16:41:19 <adrianba> ... do intend to have interim meeting there
16:41:22 <adrianba> ... any comments?
16:41:41 <adrianba> paulc: registration page will be available soon
16:41:53 <adrianba> ... possibly today or tomorrow
16:42:04 <adrianba> ISSUE-183?
16:42:04 <trackbot> ISSUE-183 -- Enhance and simplify the time element -- open
16:42:04 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/183
16:42:22 <adrianba> mjs: chairs noted 2 proposals agreed on one aspect, something already in the spec
16:42:36 <adrianba> ... CfC to take that off the table so time wouldn't be spent on something everyone agrees on
16:42:54 <adrianba> ... sent feedback on proposals asking to remove those points and justify everything else
16:43:03 <adrianba> ... change was about time syntax
16:43:31 <adrianba> mjs: Revert request for http+aes scheme was received
16:43:54 <adrianba> ... several messages of agreement including original proposer - revert completed
16:44:12 <adrianba> mjs: DST changes - links to email about DST changes
16:44:23 <adrianba> ... W3C telcons are on north american time (US Eastern)
16:44:35 <adrianba> ... your time may change
16:44:44 <adrianba> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Mar/0081.html
16:44:51 <adrianba> mjs: there is a new weekly summary
16:44:58 <adrianba> http://www.w3.org/QA/2012/03/openweb-weekly-28.html
16:45:38 <adrianba> mjs: decisions pending heartbeat drafts - lots of recently closed items that were CfC at various times that chairs haven't published yet
16:45:51 <adrianba> ... may have to reassess that knowing that 2 decisions are not applied yet
16:45:57 <adrianba> ... we have not overlooked them
16:46:51 <adrianba> ISSUE-164?
16:46:51 <trackbot> ISSUE-164 -- remove or modify hgroup -- open
16:46:51 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/164
16:46:58 <adrianba> SteveF: what is the status here?
16:47:02 <mjs> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-164
16:47:20 <adrianba> paulc: this is in my queue to evaluate - there are 5 change proposals
16:47:24 <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-164
16:47:31 <adrianba> ... haven't got to it yet
16:47:47 <adrianba> ... this work is in the chairs input queue to evaluate CPs and it is a work in progress
16:48:14 <adrianba> TOPIC: Scribe for next meeting
16:48:19 <adrianba> mjs: volunteers?
16:48:27 <glenn> i can scribe
16:48:27 <adrianba> ... Sam will chair that meeting
16:48:49 <adrianba> ... thanks glenn
16:48:57 <adrianba> TOPIC: Adjournment
16:49:05 <adrianba> mjs: thanks for calling in - see you next week
16:49:06 <Zakim> -Clarke
16:49:07 <Zakim> -Joe_Steele
16:49:08 <Zakim> -Sam
16:49:09 <Zakim> -Janina
16:49:09 <Zakim> -Mike
16:49:11 <Zakim> -Wayne_Carr
16:49:11 <Zakim> -Plh
16:49:13 <Zakim> - +1.415.595.aaaa
16:49:13 <Zakim> -hober
16:49:13 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
16:49:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/15-html-wg-minutes.html adrianba
16:49:14 <Zakim> -glenn
16:49:17 <janina> janina has left #html-wg
16:49:21 <Zakim> -Radhika_Roy
16:49:22 <adrianba> rrsagent, make logs public
16:49:22 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:49:34 <Zakim> -adrianba
16:49:41 <Zakim> -??P8
16:49:42 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
16:49:44 <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
16:49:46 <Zakim> Attendees were glenn, eliot, Radhika_Roy, [Microsoft], adrianba, Joe_Steele, Clarke, Sam, +1.415.595.aaaa, Wayne_Carr, hober, Mike, Plh, Janina
16:49:52 <adrianba> Scribe: Adrian Bateman
16:50:00 <adrianba> Chair: Maciej Stachowiak
16:50:08 <adrianba> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2012JanMar/0024.html
16:50:12 <adrianba> rrsagent, make minutes
16:50:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/15-html-wg-minutes.html adrianba
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