IRC log of eval on 2012-03-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:48:25 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #eval

14:48:25 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/08-eval-irc

14:48:27 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

14:48:27 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #eval

14:48:29 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 3825

14:48:29 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes

14:48:30 [trackbot]

Meeting: WCAG 2.0 Evaluation Methodology Task Force Teleconference

14:48:30 [trackbot]

Date: 08 March 2012

14:48:40 [shadi]

chair: Eric

14:48:55 [shadi]

regrets: Elle, Alistair, Richard

14:50:24 [shadi]

regrets: Elle, Alistair, Richard, Liz, Tim

14:50:42 [shadi]

regrets: Elle, Alistair, Richard, Liz, Tim, Vincent

14:53:39 [MartijnHoutepen]

MartijnHoutepen has joined #eval

14:54:31 [Zakim]

WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has now started

14:54:38 [Zakim]

+??P0

14:54:58 [sds]

zakim, ??P0 is me

14:54:58 [Zakim]

+sds; got it

14:55:19 [Zakim]

+ +1.602.824.aaaa

14:58:04 [Zakim]

+Shadi

14:58:48 [shadi]

zakim, aaaa is Don

14:58:48 [Zakim]

+Don; got it

14:58:55 [Zakim]

+ +31.30.239.aabb

14:59:07 [shadi]

zakim, sds is really ssirois

14:59:07 [Zakim]

+ssirois; got it

14:59:16 [MartijnHoutepen]

zakim, aabb is me

14:59:16 [Zakim]

+MartijnHoutepen; got it

15:00:15 [MartijnHoutepen]

zakim, mute me

15:00:15 [Zakim]

MartijnHoutepen should now be muted

15:00:24 [ericvelleman]

ericvelleman has joined #eval

15:00:48 [Zakim]

+??P16

15:00:57 [vivienne]

zakim, ??P16 is me

15:00:57 [Zakim]

+vivienne; got it

15:01:17 [vivienne]

zakim, mute me

15:01:17 [Zakim]

vivienne should now be muted

15:01:21 [Zakim]

+ +31.30.239.aacc

15:01:27 [ssirois]

zakim, mute me

15:01:27 [Zakim]

ssirois should now be muted

15:01:28 [Mike_Elledge]

Mike_Elledge has joined #eval

15:02:09 [Kerstin]

Kerstin has joined #eval

15:02:12 [Zakim]

+ +1.517.353.aadd

15:02:18 [MartijnHoutepen]

zakim, unmute me

15:02:18 [Zakim]

MartijnHoutepen should no longer be muted

15:02:49 [Zakim]

- +31.30.239.aacc

15:03:22 [MartijnHoutepen]

zakim, mute me

15:03:22 [Zakim]

MartijnHoutepen should now be muted

15:03:34 [Zakim]

+ +31.30.239.aaee

15:04:19 [Mike_Elledge]

zakim, aadd is, me

15:04:20 [Zakim]

+??P26

15:04:20 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'aadd is, me', Mike_Elledge

15:05:11 [Zakim]

- +31.30.239.aaee

15:05:20 [Mike_Elledge]

zakim, add is me

15:05:20 [Zakim]

sorry, Mike_Elledge, I do not recognize a party named 'add'

15:05:25 [Kathy]

Kathy has joined #eval

15:05:26 [Kerstin]

zakim, ??P26 is me

15:05:26 [Zakim]

+Kerstin; got it

15:05:32 [Zakim]

+ +1.978.443.aaff

15:05:43 [Mike_Elledge]

zakim, aadd is me

15:05:43 [Zakim]

+Mike_Elledge; got it

15:05:47 [Zakim]

+ +31.30.239.aagg

15:05:48 [Mike_Elledge]

Yay!

15:06:07 [Kerstin]

+1 for the Yay

15:06:12 [Kathy]

zakim, aaff is me

15:06:12 [Zakim]

+Kathy; got it

15:06:18 [Mike_Elledge]

:^)

15:06:33 [MartijnHoutepen]

zakim, unmute me

15:06:33 [Zakim]

MartijnHoutepen should no longer be muted

15:06:45 [Kerstin]

zakim, mute me

15:06:45 [Zakim]

Kerstin should now be muted

15:06:51 [Kathy]

zakim, mute me

15:06:51 [Zakim]

Kathy should now be muted

15:06:52 [ssirois]

zakim, unmute me

15:06:53 [Zakim]

ssirois should no longer be muted

15:07:23 [ssirois]

zakim, scribe is me

15:07:23 [Zakim]

sorry, ssirois, I do not recognize a party named 'scribe'

15:07:34 [shadi]

scribe: Samuel

15:07:43 [shadi]

scribenick: ssirois

15:08:19 [Zakim]

- +31.30.239.aagg

15:08:39 [shadi]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:08:40 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ssirois, Don, Shadi, MartijnHoutepen, vivienne (muted), Mike_Elledge, Kerstin (muted), Kathy (muted)

15:09:03 [shadi]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2012Mar/0004.html

15:09:16 [shadi]

Topic: New Methodology version

15:09:30 [shadi]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20120306

15:09:36 [Sarah_Swierenga]

Sarah_Swierenga has joined #eval

15:09:44 [Mike_Elledge]

+1 for the new document!

15:10:03 [Zakim]

+ +1.517.432.aahh

15:10:07 [vivienne]

q+

15:10:11 [ssirois]

ericvelleman: New methodoly revision (mostly done by shadi). Section 3 is now more step based.

15:10:14 [Kathy]

+1 I like it

15:10:15 [ericvelleman]

q?

15:10:20 [vivienne]

ack me

15:10:28 [shadi]

zakim, aahh is Sarah

15:10:28 [Zakim]

+Sarah; got it

15:10:33 [ssirois]

ericvelleman: What are the comments on that new version? Objections, suggestions?

15:11:01 [shadi]

ack viv

15:11:08 [ssirois]

vivienne: Really likes the new flow of the document. Easier to understand. Just sent a couple of emails before this meeting.

15:11:25 [shadi]

[[Note: When a website is being re-evaluated, it is sometimes useful for comparison to include a portion of web pages from the sample selected for the previous evaluation. However, the majority of web pages should be freshly selected to provide an accurate representation of the entire website.]]

15:12:23 [Zakim]

+ +31.30.239.aaii

15:12:47 [ericvelleman]

q?

15:12:53 [MartijnHoutepen]

zakim, aaii is me

15:12:53 [Zakim]

+MartijnHoutepen; got it

15:12:56 [vivienne]

zakim, mute me

15:12:56 [Zakim]

vivienne should now be muted

15:13:05 [MartijnHoutepen]

zakim, mute me

15:13:05 [Zakim]

MartijnHoutepen should now be muted

15:13:06 [Kathy]

q+

15:13:08 [Kerstin]

q+

15:13:28 [ericvelleman]

q?

15:13:44 [vivienne]

can you take those that I've written already?

15:13:51 [ssirois]

vivienne: Step 3.b, did we agree on adding new pages to the already selected pages or did we want to start on a fresh base? I think we have aggreed to add pages to the selected page. We might have to rephrase a little.

15:14:16 [ssirois]

ericvelleman: Yes. We have aggreed on that and we shall rephrase.

15:14:33 [MartijnHoutepen]

zakim, unmute me

15:14:33 [Zakim]

MartijnHoutepen should no longer be muted

15:14:42 [Mike_Elledge]

q+

15:14:50 [Kathy]

ack me

15:15:08 [shadi]

[[change "majority" to "freshly"]]

15:15:16 [ssirois]

Kathy: I agree that this is a much better draft now.

15:16:05 [Kerstin]

zakim, unmute me

15:16:05 [Zakim]

Kerstin should no longer be muted

15:16:11 [ssirois]

Kathy: I feel like we kind of repeat ourselves in 3.a,b and c. Maybe we should tighten things a little?

15:16:32 [ssirois]

ericvelleman: Actually, we did try to make those different but if it seems to have overlaps, we shall review that.

15:16:46 [shadi]

[[repitition between 3.a and 3.c regarding pages relevant for people with disabilities]]

15:16:58 [ssirois]

ericvelleman: If you see anything that is "already" there, just make sure to point it out.

15:17:01 [ericvelleman]

q?

15:17:08 [Kathy]

zakim, mute me

15:17:08 [Zakim]

Kathy should now be muted

15:17:10 [MartijnHoutepen]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:17:11 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ssirois, Don, Shadi, MartijnHoutepen, vivienne (muted), Mike_Elledge, Kerstin, Kathy (muted), Sarah, MartijnHoutepen.a

15:17:37 [shadi]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2012Mar/0016.html

15:18:17 [ssirois]

Kerstin: Two major points that i have already sent through email (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-evaltf/2012Mar/0016.html)

15:18:43 [Zakim]

-Don

15:19:11 [ssirois]

Kerstin: On point 1e and 4b, i have submitted my comments.

15:19:24 [Zakim]

+Don

15:19:49 [ssirois]

scribe: (note) read through previous URL for more details on Kerstin's thoughts.

15:20:18 [MartijnHoutepen]

zakim, MartijnHoutepen.a is me

15:20:18 [Zakim]

+MartijnHoutepen; got it

15:21:16 [MartijnHoutepen]

MartijnHoutepen has left #eval

15:21:25 [MartijnHoutepen]

MartijnHoutepen has joined #eval

15:22:21 [ssirois]

shadi: i think that techniques are a good tool to "prove" the conformity declaration.

15:23:07 [ssirois]

Kerstin: i think there is a big missunderstanding worldwide on the mandatory aspect of applied techniques for conformity.

15:23:08 [ericvelleman]

q?

15:23:54 [ssirois]

shadi: would it be ok if we rephrase the draft to make sure that it is understood that the techniques are not checkpoints for conformity.

15:24:49 [Mike_Elledge]

"recommend use relevant WCAG 2.0 techniques or their equivalent"

15:24:54 [Kerstin]

zakim, mute me

15:24:54 [Zakim]

Kerstin should now be muted

15:24:56 [ssirois]

Kerstin: yes. it is important that the techniques are not looked as the ONLY way to achieve conformity.

15:25:07 [shadi]

q- ker

15:25:54 [shadi]

q+

15:25:59 [shadi]

ack mike

15:26:25 [ssirois]

Mike_Elledge: If the techniques for WCAG 2.0 are not correct, they should be revised because we really want to point to those techniques (not reinventing the wheel) for our methodology.

15:26:34 [ssirois]

Mike_Elledge: the step by step process is really great.

15:26:36 [shadi]

ack me

15:26:45 [ericvelleman]

q?

15:27:51 [ssirois]

shadi: we have to be carefull that only the techniques published by the w3c are valid. there are great techniques out there.

15:28:39 [ssirois]

shadi: it is bogus to think that if none of the techniques match on a website, the website is not conform.

15:29:07 [vivienne]

Shadi, could you give us an example?

15:29:09 [ssirois]

shadi: we should not add to this missunderstanding with our document.

15:31:17 [shadi]

[[add "resources from W3C" in 1.3]]

15:31:29 [shadi]

Topic: Section 2.1 Scope of Applicability

15:31:44 [shadi]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20120306#applicability

15:32:22 [vivienne]

I think that 2.1 covers our discussion well.

15:33:09 [vivienne]

q+

15:33:13 [vivienne]

ack me

15:34:29 [Kerstin]

just 19? ;-)

15:34:58 [ssirois]

vivienne: i like the examples. they are selfexplicit and covering a large part of our discussions. maybe add a couple more examples, to make sure to cover all our discussions.

15:35:09 [shadi]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20120306#step1a

15:35:59 [shadi]

[[consider a link forward from 2.1 to Step 1.a]]

15:35:59 [Sarah_Swierenga]

I like that the section emphasizes that "The methodology defined by this document applies to full, self-enclosed websites...." and "...the methodology always applies to a full website without exclusions or omissions of website parts...."

15:36:23 [vivienne]

zakim, mute me

15:36:23 [Zakim]

vivienne should now be muted

15:38:17 [ssirois]

ericvelleman: by using the methodology, we might find out that we need more examples. we'll be able to address that in time.

15:39:11 [shadi]

Topic: Section 3 Evaluation Procedure

15:39:35 [shadi]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20120306#procedure

15:39:47 [ssirois]

ericvelleman: bringing light to each steps found in section 3.

15:40:21 [ssirois]

ericvelleman: i suggess that we concentrate on steps 1,2 and 3 for this week and then go further.

15:40:35 [Kerstin]

q+

15:40:41 [Kerstin]

Zakim, unmute me

15:40:41 [Zakim]

Kerstin should no longer be muted

15:40:42 [ssirois]

ericvelleman: does anyone think we are missing steps, or having too much steps?

15:40:52 [shadi]

ack ker

15:41:03 [ssirois]

Kerstin: i think we are missing the number of pages.

15:41:13 [shadi]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20120306#step3b

15:41:27 [shadi]

q+

15:41:29 [vivienne]

q+

15:41:35 [shadi]

q- last

15:41:40 [shadi]

q-

15:41:46 [shadi]

q+

15:41:47 [ericvelleman]

q?

15:41:47 [vivienne]

ack me

15:41:49 [Kerstin]

zakim, mute me

15:41:49 [Zakim]

Kerstin should now be muted

15:42:26 [ssirois]

ericvelleman: In step 3.b, we are suggesting having at least two distinct web pages. And we precise further more a little later.

15:42:29 [shadi]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20120306#elemental

15:42:58 [shadi]

[[Fundamental web pages that are relevant to the entire website. This includes the homepage, login page, and other entry pages, and, where applicable, the sitemap, contacts, site help, legal information, and similar web pages that are typically linked from all web pages (usually from the header, footer, or navigation menu of a web page).]]

15:43:37 [MartijnHoutepen]

sorry, one of my headsets is broken, the other one empty

15:44:22 [ssirois]

vivienne: we should recall "elemental web pages" in step three.

15:45:08 [ssirois]

ericvelleman: we could reference it more directly. but it might looks like a repetition of section 1.4

15:45:10 [shadi]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/conformance/ED-methodology-20120306#terms

15:46:00 [ericvelleman]

q?

15:46:10 [vivienne]

zakim, mute me

15:46:10 [Zakim]

vivienne should now be muted

15:46:49 [shadi]

ack me

15:48:22 [ssirois]

shadi: regarding the number of pages. step 3 of section 3 will suffer a lot of revisions before it actually works. but the approach is more "dynamic". even in very large websites, heavily template-driven, maybe just a handfull of pages might be ok, eventhough we have thousands of pages.

15:48:40 [Mike_Elledge]

q+

15:48:51 [ssirois]

shadi: but in a small website, authored by a lot of contributors, might actually need more pages in the sample.

15:49:09 [newbie]

newbie has joined #eval

15:49:17 [ssirois]

shadi: we need much more refinement as we go, but do we agree on the approach?

15:49:30 [ssirois]

Mike_Elledge: yes, the approach is good.

15:49:45 [shadi]

ack me

15:49:52 [ssirois]

Mike_Elledge: are we restricting the review to entire pages or could we sample just a feature in a page?

15:49:55 [shadi]

ack m

15:49:58 [Kerstin]

I like the steps so far ver y much, ok,.. except Step 4.b

15:50:08 [ssirois]

ericvelleman: the idea (as in wcag2) is to evaluate the whole page.

15:51:04 [MartijnHoutepen]

MartijnHoutepen has joined #eval

15:52:21 [ssirois]

shadi: lets say that one of the page contains a video (which is a unique feature of that page). that page would end up in the basket of the pages to evaluate. we previously had concensus that we do not need to re-evaluate the navigation on all pages.

15:52:43 [Mike_Elledge]

Thanks!

15:52:51 [ssirois]

ericvelleman: any other remarks on the document, until step 4?

15:53:13 [shadi]

Topic: Next Steps

15:53:40 [vivienne]

I think it will be good to publish this as you suggest.

15:53:50 [ssirois]

ericvelleman: would the group agree that we try to publish this version as the first draft? anyone have trouble with this?

15:53:51 [shadi]

https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/48225/WCAG-EM20120306/

15:53:55 [Kerstin]

I would like to decide after the changes

15:54:24 [ssirois]

shadi: i have prepared a web based survey for everyone to add additionnal comments to the current state of the document.

15:54:27 [ssirois]

q+

15:54:57 [ssirois]

shadi: things that must be lookup up before publishing the draft.

15:55:10 [ssirois]

shadi: the survey will go until next wednesday.

15:55:54 [shadi]

ack ssirois

15:56:21 [ssirois]

shadi: the two parents WG will recieve the survey as well. (since both are responsible for this task force)

15:56:30 [ssirois]

q?

15:57:27 [ssirois]

ericvelleman: we shall have a "final" version of the first draft (which will be published).

15:58:41 [ssirois]

shadi: we are in search of our first consensus on the draft. editor's draft does not represent the group (per say), but the public draft is representing a concensus of the group's ideas on the methodology.

15:58:51 [Kerstin]

thanks shadi and eric for all the work

15:59:06 [Kerstin]

zakim, unmute me

15:59:06 [Zakim]

Kerstin should no longer be muted

15:59:11 [ssirois]

ericvelleman: let's work on this on the comming week. thank you.

15:59:12 [vivienne]

bye now see you next week.

15:59:13 [Zakim]

-Sarah

15:59:15 [MartijnHoutepen]

bye

15:59:17 [vivienne]

-vivienne

15:59:18 [Mike_Elledge]

Bye!

15:59:19 [Zakim]

-Kathy

15:59:20 [Zakim]

-Don

15:59:22 [Zakim]

-Shadi

15:59:23 [Zakim]

-Mike_Elledge

15:59:27 [Zakim]

-ssirois

15:59:28 [Zakim]

-vivienne

15:59:28 [Zakim]

-MartijnHoutepen.aa

15:59:36 [Zakim]

-MartijnHoutepen

15:59:37 [Zakim]

-Kerstin

15:59:39 [Zakim]

WAI_ERTWG(Eval TF)10:00AM has ended

15:59:39 [Zakim]

Attendees were +1.602.824.aaaa, Shadi, Don, +31.30.239.aabb, ssirois, MartijnHoutepen, vivienne, +31.30.239.aacc, +1.517.353.aadd, +31.30.239.aaee, Kerstin, +1.978.443.aaff,

15:59:39 [Zakim]

... Mike_Elledge, +31.30.239.aagg, Kathy, +1.517.432.aahh, Sarah, +31.30.239.aaii

16:02:27 [ericvelleman]

ericvelleman has left #eval

16:09:34 [shadi]

trackbot, end meeting

16:09:34 [trackbot]

Zakim, list attendees

16:09:34 [Zakim]

sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is

16:09:42 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:09:42 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/08-eval-minutes.html trackbot

16:09:43 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, bye

16:09:43 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items