14:29:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rd
14:29:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/07-rd-irc
14:29:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:29:45 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rd
14:29:47 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7394
14:29:47 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_RDWG()9:30AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:29:48 <trackbot> Meeting: Research and Development Working Group Teleconference
14:29:48 <trackbot> Date: 07 March 2012
14:29:53 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:29:53 <Zakim> WAI_RDWG()9:30AM has not yet started, shawn
14:29:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, shawn, Yehya, vivienne, Mate, nonge_, shadi, trackbot
14:30:07 <sharper> sharper has joined #rd
14:30:13 <christos> christos has joined #rd
14:30:20 <sharper> trackbot, start meeting
14:30:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:30:24 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7394
14:30:24 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_RDWG()9:30AM scheduled to start now
14:30:25 <trackbot> Meeting: Research and Development Working Group Teleconference
14:30:25 <trackbot> Date: 07 March 2012
14:30:31 <sharper> zakim, agenda?
14:30:31 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
14:30:36 <Zakim> WAI_RDWG()9:30AM has now started
14:30:42 <Zakim> +Shawn
14:30:44 <Zakim> +Shadi
14:31:00 <Zakim> +??P28
14:31:20 <christos> zakim, ??P28 is me
14:31:20 <Zakim> +christos; got it
14:31:25 <sharper> Chair: Harper_Simon
14:31:25 <sharper> Agenda+ Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments).
14:31:26 <sharper> Agenda+ Has Mobile Pre-Call been Released?
14:31:26 <sharper> Agenda+ W3C Note: Specific Substantive Changes to 3.7, combine(4.1.3, 4.1.4, missed complexity), 4.3, and Conclusions ONLY. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3976331/research-note-2012-03-6.odt
14:31:26 <sharper> Agenda+ Copyright / Credit / Citations - discussion.
14:31:27 <sharper> Agenda+ Any Other Business
14:31:28 <giorgio> giorgio has joined #rd
14:31:37 <sharper> zakim, save agenda
14:31:43 <sharper> zakim, take up item 1
14:31:43 <Zakim> ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/07-rd-agenda.rdf
14:31:45 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments)." taken up [from sharper]
14:32:27 <Zakim> +??P29
14:32:40 <vivienne> zakim, +??P29 is me
14:32:40 <Zakim> sorry, vivienne, I do not recognize a party named '+??P29'
14:32:51 <Zakim> +Klaus/Johannes/Thomas
14:32:51 <Zakim> +??P30
14:32:54 <sharper> zakim, ??P30 is sharper
14:32:54 <Zakim> +sharper; got it
14:33:00 <vivienne> zakim, ??P29 is me
14:33:00 <Zakim> +vivienne; got it
14:33:08 <sharper> present+ Harper_Simon
14:33:23 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:33:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see Shadi, Shawn, christos, vivienne, Klaus/Johannes/Thomas, sharper
14:33:28 <christos> zakim, mute me
14:33:28 <Zakim> christos should now be muted
14:33:32 <Zakim> +??P32
14:33:36 <vivienne> zakim, mute me
14:33:36 <Zakim> vivienne should now be muted
14:33:41 <shawn> present+ Shawn_Henry
14:33:48 <sharper> regrets+ Yesilada_Yeliz
14:33:54 <shadi> zakim, klaus/johannes/thomas is really Yehya
14:33:54 <Zakim> +Yehya; got it
14:33:56 <giorgio> zakim, ??P32 is giorgio
14:33:56 <Zakim> +giorgio; got it
14:34:01 <markel> markel has joined #rd
14:34:12 <sharper> regrets+ Thiessen_Peter
14:34:20 <shawn> zakim, mute me
14:34:20 <Zakim> Shawn should now be muted
14:34:28 <sharper> regrets+ O'Connor_Joshue
14:35:08 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:35:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see Shadi, Shawn (muted), christos (muted), vivienne (muted), Yehya, sharper, giorgio
14:35:11 <Zakim> +??P34
14:35:37 <shawn> zakim, who is making noise?
14:35:40 <sharper> do you have noise on the line?
14:35:48 <Zakim> shawn, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
14:36:02 <shadi> zakim, drop ??p34
14:36:02 <Zakim> ??P34 is being disconnected
14:36:03 <Zakim> -??P34
14:36:13 <sharper> no noise - no voice
14:36:14 <shawn> zakim, who is making noise?
14:36:24 <Zakim> shawn, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
14:36:36 <markel> I was P34
14:36:44 <sharper> Come back Markel
14:36:47 <shadi> we apologize markel!!!
14:37:19 <Zakim> +??P34
14:37:36 <sharper> regrets+ McCathieNevile_Charles
14:37:53 <vivienne> okay
14:37:56 <markel> zakim, ??34 is markel
14:37:56 <Zakim> sorry, markel, I do not recognize a party named '??34'
14:38:01 <vivienne> zakim, ack me
14:38:01 <Zakim> unmuting vivienne
14:38:02 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
14:38:05 <shadi> scribe: vivienne
14:38:13 <markel> zakim, ??P34 is markel 
14:38:13 <Zakim> +markel; got it
14:38:42 <sharper> zakim, close item 1
14:38:42 <Zakim> agendum 1, Welcome & Logistics (Regrets, Agenda Requests, Comments)., closed
14:38:43 <sharper> zakim, take up item 2
14:38:45 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:38:45 <Zakim> 2. Has Mobile Pre-Call been Released? [from sharper]
14:38:45 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Has Mobile Pre-Call been Released?" taken up [from sharper]
14:38:59 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:38:59 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:39:30 <giorgio> nope
14:39:59 <sharper> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-rd/2012Mar/0000.html
14:40:02 <markel> oh yeah, i remember
14:40:21 <shadi> q+
14:40:43 <sharper> http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Mobile_Pre_CFP
14:40:59 <sharper> ack s
14:41:01 <shadi> ack me
14:41:06 <vivienne> sharper: comment from Jeanne Spellman - she thinks that the topic in the list should be rephrased slightly. In the list on the topic on the WIKI, in the pre-call, one of the points she would like changed
14:41:45 <vivienne> Shadi: followed up with Jeanne who indicates the phrasing of the 2nd sentence doesn't quite match the call question
14:42:12 <shadi> s/match the call questions/match the template provided
14:42:19 <shawn> [ Shawn thinks Jeanne's rewrite is less clear]
14:42:23 <shawn> ack me
14:42:26 <vivienne> Sharper: we've had to adapt 3 different parts together who has caused this.  This could be smoothed through in the full call with Peter & Yeliz are with us on the call.  The change suggested is reasonable to me.
14:42:33 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:42:34 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:42:56 <shadi> ack me
14:42:56 <vivienne> Either the question needs to change of the template be made more flexible
14:43:22 <vivienne> Shadi: it is a mismatch between the 2nd question and the template - suggested rephrasing the question
14:43:53 <vivienne> Shadi: the 1st and 3rd questions have a different tone and approach than the 2nd one. Can we suggest something else now for the 2nd question?
14:44:16 <vivienne> Sorry, who is speaking now?
14:45:09 <vivienne> SLH: do we want to just take out the word 'do', so it says "how existing WAI guidelines cover..."
14:45:25 <vivienne> SLH: I would also take out the 'if needed'
14:45:30 <shawn> How existing WAI guidelines cover mobile accessibility issues and what additional guidance is needed, such as techniques; 
14:45:49 <giorgio> we could even drop "such as techniques"
14:46:37 <shawn> How existing WAI guidelines cover mobile accessibility and what additional guidance is needed 
14:46:44 <giorgio> +1
14:47:22 <giorgio> q+
14:47:32 <vivienne> SLH: is it useful to have 'techniques' to put it in the context?  People who aren't familiar with existing guidelines and techniques might go and propose something totally different.  
14:47:32 <sharper> ack g
14:47:53 <shadi> q+
14:48:14 <vivienne> Giorgio: we already said about the mobile accessibility guidelines, so we address things like techniques, but also methods, tools etc.  It would make it more open.
14:48:46 <shadi> ack me
14:48:48 <vivienne> Sharper: it can be cleared up in the full call, but we're already behind on the timeline.  I've made the changes in the WIKI
14:48:49 <shadi> [[What coverage can additional WCAG 2.0 Techniques provide]]
14:49:30 <vivienne> Shadi: I'm happy with the change, but I don't want to drop the techniques either. People are developing guidelines which could be covered by WCAG techniques.  How about we leave that generic question as it is now.  "What coverage could WCAG techniques provide?"
14:50:11 <vivienne> Sharper: do you want this in the pre-call or the main call?
14:50:28 <vivienne> Shadi: in the pre-call 
14:50:37 <vivienne> Sharper: post it in as an additional topic?
14:50:39 <shadi> zakim, mute me
14:50:39 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
14:50:44 <vivienne> SLH: could go as an additional bullet point
14:50:54 <vivienne> Zakim, mute me
14:50:54 <Zakim> vivienne should now be muted
14:51:49 <vivienne> sharper: do you agree with this so it can be released?
14:51:54 <shadi> ack me
14:52:04 <vivienne> SLH: are we going to set up web pages or invite people to the WIKI page?
14:52:20 <giorgio> ok for me
14:52:21 <vivienne> Shadi: we could create a URL and put up a page - I can do that.  We need a resolution from the group
14:52:23 <sharper> +1
14:52:30 <markel> I'm fine with it
14:52:38 <vivienne> Shadi: let's look at the timelines - 1st April
14:52:47 <sharper> http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Main_Page
14:52:53 <sharper> http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Mobile_Topic_Timeline
14:53:10 <vivienne> Sharper: on the main WIKI page - research topic has a topic timeline that has been sent to the mailing list - as close to April 1 as possible - is set for $ April
14:53:15 <vivienne> 4 April
14:53:26 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/planning
14:53:38 <vivienne> Sharper: we're already late for announcing the main call for papers
14:54:01 <vivienne> SLH: the reason we were doing a pre-call was to get the information out early - do we need to do this, or can we just put out a call?
14:54:20 <vivienne> Sharper: we've got discussions to do which could delay the call
14:54:41 <vivienne> Sharper: we need to get the copyright and accreditation out
14:55:04 <markel> yes
14:55:10 <vivienne> yes
14:55:11 <christos> yes
14:55:12 <giorgio> yep
14:55:52 <vivienne> Sharper: I've been planning the next set of teleconferences, so if we're late on this one it makes all the others late
14:56:13 <giorgio> q+
14:56:15 <vivienne> Sharper: if we need to squeeze anything, it's the 4 week review period
14:56:56 <vivienne> Shadi: can you clarify which 4 weeks?
14:57:43 <vivienne> Sharper: 4 April to 2 May is 4 weeks which is a 2 week review and a 2 week rebuttal, should be a 2 week review and a 1 week rebuttal.  Deadline for papers 18th April and then squish the rebuttal period so we can still meet the date for the teleconference
14:58:51 <vivienne> Shadi: - 8 weeks, deadline for papers, then 2 weeks for review of submissions and feedback (scientific committee), start of rebuttal period, then there is 2 weeks for the scientific committee to check changes and there's another 2 weeks there.  Do you want to push that down to 1 week.
14:59:08 <vivienne> Shadi: earliers would still be 4 June.
14:59:22 <markel> http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/wiki/Mobile_Topic_Timeline
14:59:48 <vivienne> Shadi: so the date for the teleconference is 30 May
15:00:05 <vivienne> Giorgio: what happens if we release 2 webinars in the year?
15:00:43 <vivienne> Sharper: charter says 3-4, but we could get away with 3.  2 is too little and would reduce the imact and emphasis.  I think we can get another 3-4 in after the mobile as timelines can overlap.
15:00:58 <giorgio> q+
15:01:04 <sharper> acjk g
15:01:08 <sharper> ack g
15:01:28 <shawn> [ Shawn has avoided committing much time to the mobile topic so as to focus on the next one! ]
15:01:37 <vivienne> Giorgio: okay, agree.  We should work on the process for deciding what the precall is and the process for editing etc. We need to shorten that process and be more efficient.
15:01:50 <vivienne> Sharper: that's why we need the conference management system
15:02:07 <vivienne> Giorgio: the precall could be announced in 1 week
15:03:15 <vivienne> Sharper: We need to have all the times in the timeline and streamline it in the process and get something to help us with the rebuttal/review process
15:03:38 <vivienne> Sharper: do we say that we're going to have the deadline for submission as 18 April?
15:03:59 <vivienne> Sharper: teleconference date 30th May
15:04:22 <giorgio> I'd go for declaing the dates asap so that we committ to them
15:04:35 <giorgio> s/declaing/declaring/
15:04:48 <vivienne> Shadi: 4 weeks get us to 18th April, after W4A
15:05:27 <vivienne> Sharper: deadline for closing papers 18th April
15:06:09 <vivienne> Sharper: do we agree that this pre-call is now it?  Main call by next week so we can discuss it?
15:06:57 <vivienne> SLH: we'll need to check on the scheduling today or tomorrow?
15:07:24 <vivienne> Shadi: only thing that's stopping us from doing the call is the authorship thing.  We could announce the call next week - optimistically?
15:07:38 <giorgio> ok
15:07:42 <vivienne> Sharper: do we have agreement?
15:07:51 <vivienne> zakim, close 2
15:07:51 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close 2', vivienne
15:08:09 <vivienne> zakim, close item 2
15:08:09 <Zakim> agendum 2, Has Mobile Pre-Call been Released?, closed
15:08:10 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:08:10 <Zakim> 3. W3C Note: Specific Substantive Changes to 3.7, combine(4.1.3, 4.1.4, missed complexity), 4.3, and Conclusions ONLY. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3976331/research-note-2012-03-6.odt
15:08:10 <Zakim> ... [from sharper]
15:08:16 <vivienne> zakim, take up item 3
15:08:16 <Zakim> agendum 3. "W3C Note: Specific Substantive Changes to 3.7, combine(4.1.3, 4.1.4, missed complexity), 4.3, and Conclusions ONLY.
15:08:18 <Zakim> ... http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3976331/research-note-2012-03-6.odt" taken up [from sharper]
15:08:22 <shawn> zakim, mute me
15:08:22 <Zakim> Shawn should now be muted
15:08:47 <vivienne> Sharper: has everyone seen Shadi's comments?
15:08:57 <giorgio> #2. After this first publication: I think the taxonomy for "validity", "reliability", etc is rather confusing and needs further work.
15:09:03 <shadi> ack me
15:09:08 <vivienne> MV: I'm not sure what Shadi means regarding the 2nd point - explan?
15:09:51 <vivienne> Shadi: the definitions and discussions about validity, reliability, can overlap and be confusing
15:10:03 <giorgio> q+
15:10:15 <vivienne> Shadi: if we are saying validity etc. are the most important, we should be clear on what they mean
15:10:16 <markel> thanks Shadi
15:10:18 <sharper> ack g
15:10:35 <vivienne> Giorgio: it's unclear to me as well.  If it's important, then we need to address it now.
15:11:49 <vivienne> Shadi: it's at the editor's discretion.  Sometimes there is overlap - eg section 4 lists with examples.  Both validity and reliability talk about changes in the guidelines.  It comes down to more editorial cleaning.  Maybe during the review period I could write this up in more detail.
15:11:50 <giorgio> ok
15:13:23 <vivienne> MV: Giorgio and I are the editors so that the reliability and validity are quite clear to us.  I understand Shadi's thoughts about overlap, which does exist, but we're addressing deeper problems.  Maybe once the draft is published and we get comments from others we can polish it up.
15:14:00 <vivienne> Shadi: agreed - that was just my impression from reading it.  Overlap - inter-related - how we break down certain things.
15:14:05 <markel> that's the point
15:14:11 <markel> it could be endless
15:14:13 <markel> :-)
15:14:19 <vivienne> Shadi: I don't see any problems technically.
15:14:22 <shawn> q+ to say I have had several conflicting response to the coined terminology "accessibility-in-use". On the one hand, I really like it! On the other hand, I wonder about using the existing phrasing "usable accessibility"? [ https://www.google.com/search?&q=%22usable+accessibility%22 ]
15:15:29 <sharper> ack sh
15:15:29 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say I have had several conflicting response to the coined terminology "accessibility-in-use". On the one hand, I really like it! On the other hand, I wonder
15:15:33 <Zakim> ... about using the existing phrasing "usable accessibility"? [ https://www.google.com/search?&q=%22usable+accessibility%22 ]
15:15:35 <vivienne> Shadi: we need an abstract section and the W3C specifications - Status of this Document - is quite important.  Describes each particular version - how it differs from others and lists questions for the reviewers.  IN order to package this in the W3C format I need this information from the editors.
15:15:43 <shawn> ack me
15:15:46 <shadi> zakim, mute me
15:15:47 <Zakim> Shadi should now be muted
15:16:04 <giorgio> ok
15:16:26 <vivienne> MV: are you all happy with the additions?
15:16:31 <shadi> +1
15:16:31 <vivienne> I saw a couple of typos
15:16:32 <sharper> +1
15:16:38 <christos> +1
15:17:42 <giorgio> q+
15:17:48 <shawn>  https://www.google.com/search?&q=%22usable+accessibility%22
15:17:50 <sharper> ack g
15:17:51 <vivienne> SLH: the documents coins terminology 'accessibility in use' - 2 reactions to that.  1 - likes it, 2 - using the existing phrase 'usable accessibility'.  I've been thinking about the best approach - coin a new term or use an esiting one
15:18:25 <vivienne> Giorgio: don't like 'usable accessibility' - applies the adjedtive usable to accessibility - but it's at a different level.  
15:18:49 <vivienne> Sharper: I don't like the term 'usable accessibility' , I prefer 'accessibility in use'
15:19:03 <shawn> [ Shawn also likes accessibility-in-use ]
15:19:30 <shawn> [ Shawn also likes accessibility-in-use -- and usable accessibility :-]
15:19:39 <vivienne> Sharper: all in favour?
15:19:47 <sharper> +1
15:19:58 <vivienne> Sharper: we can keep 'accessibility in use' - resolved
15:19:59 <shadi> ack me
15:20:56 <vivienne> Shadi: editors send me this in html form and I will put it in the W3C template and put it in the publication queue.  As a first public working draft it takes a little longer as we need a URL, approval etc.  Maybe 2-3 weeks time once the html is in place.
15:21:40 <vivienne> Shadi: so far it's all looking good for the publication.  I need a resolution from the group
15:22:11 <vivienne> RESOLUTION: To publish this draft as a first public working draft
15:22:30 <vivienne> RESOLUTION: To publish the precall
15:23:01 <shadi> agenda?
15:23:14 <vivienne> Sharper: next week the discussion about the copyright and citation
15:23:17 <shadi> q+
15:23:25 <vivienne> Sharper: any other business?
15:23:48 <sharper> ack s
15:24:27 <vivienne> Shadi: continue discussion by email as a response to Yeliz - maybe change the topic title
15:24:33 <shawn> ack me
15:24:38 <vivienne> Sharper: I'll respond to Yeliz on the list and we can go from there
15:25:08 <vivienne> SLH: 28 March the potential next topic ready for discussion and address pre-call
15:25:58 <giorgio> ok, bye!
15:26:06 <vivienne> zakim, unmute me
15:26:06 <Zakim> vivienne should no longer be muted
15:26:11 <Yehya> present+ Mohamad_Yehya 
15:26:13 <christos> goodbye
15:26:17 <vivienne> vivienne has left #rd
15:26:18 <Zakim> -Shawn
15:26:20 <markel> markel has left #rd
15:26:20 <Zakim> -vivienne
15:26:22 <Zakim> -sharper
15:26:25 <Zakim> -Shadi
15:26:26 <Zakim> -markel
15:26:29 <Zakim> -Yehya
15:26:36 <Zakim> -giorgio
15:27:36 <Yehya> disconnect Yehya
15:33:20 <shadi> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:33:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see christos
15:33:27 <shadi> zakim, drop christos
15:33:27 <Zakim> christos is being disconnected
15:33:29 <Zakim> WAI_RDWG()9:30AM has ended
15:33:29 <Zakim> Attendees were Shawn, Shadi, christos, sharper, vivienne, Yehya, giorgio, markel
15:33:46 <shadi> trackbot, end meeting
15:33:46 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:33:46 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
15:33:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:33:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/07-rd-minutes.html trackbot
15:33:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:33:55 <RRSAgent> I see no action items