IRC log of prov on 2012-03-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:01:42 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #prov
16:01:42 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:01:44 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
16:01:44 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #prov
16:01:46 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
16:01:46 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:01:47 [trackbot]
Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
16:01:47 [trackbot]
Date: 01 March 2012
16:01:56 [MacTed]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:01:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MacTed
16:01:57 [Luc]
Luc has joined #prov
16:02:02 [MacTed]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:02:08 [MacTed]
Zakim, who's here?
16:02:08 [Zakim]
sorry, MacTed, I don't know what conference this is
16:02:10 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Luc, Zakim, RRSAgent, kai, Mike_, Curt, tlebo, SamCoppens, gk1, GK, MacTed, trackbot, stain, sandro
16:02:11 [MacTed]
Zakim, this is PROV
16:02:12 [khalidbelhajjame]
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16:02:14 [Zakim]
ok, MacTed; that matches SW_(PROV)11:00AM
16:02:18 [MacTed]
Zakim, who's here?
16:02:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see tlebo, +1.443.708.aaaa, SamCoppens, Curt_Tilmes, ??P4, [OpenLink], ??P18
16:02:20 [dgarijo]
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16:02:23 [Zakim]
On IRC I see khalidbelhajjame, Luc, Zakim, RRSAgent, kai, Mike_, Curt, tlebo, SamCoppens, gk1, GK, MacTed, trackbot, stain, sandro
16:02:27 [MacTed]
Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me
16:02:29 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
16:02:30 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
16:02:37 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
16:02:39 [Zakim]
16:02:43 [Luc]
trackbot, start telcon
16:02:45 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
16:02:47 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
16:02:47 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
16:02:48 [trackbot]
Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
16:02:48 [trackbot]
Date: 01 March 2012
16:02:55 [Zakim]
16:02:56 [Zakim]
16:03:04 [GK]
zakim, ??p18 is me
16:03:04 [Zakim]
+GK; got it
16:03:14 [Luc]
Zakim, this will be PROV
16:03:14 [Zakim]
ok, Luc, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started
16:03:31 [Luc]
16:03:35 [satya]
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16:03:41 [stephenc]
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16:03:50 [Zakim]
16:03:56 [Luc]
Chair: Paul Groth
16:04:04 [Luc]
have we got a scribe?
16:04:17 [Zakim]
16:04:26 [khalidbelhajjame]
zakim, ??P25 is me
16:04:26 [Zakim]
+khalidbelhajjame; got it
16:04:29 [Luc]
Scribe: GK
16:04:39 [pgroth]
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16:04:40 [Luc]
Topic: Admin
16:05:09 [pgroth]
Minutes of the Feb 23 2012 Telecon:
16:05:10 [Luc]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:05:16 [GK]
Vote on minutes of last week telecon
16:05:21 [khalidbelhajjame]
16:05:23 [Curt]
16:05:24 [tlebo]
16:05:26 [SamCoppens]
16:05:28 [dgarijo]
16:05:30 [satya]
16:05:31 [GK]
OK, with revervartion per email
16:05:35 [Mike_]
16:05:37 [kai]
+0, wasn't there
16:06:18 [Paolo]
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16:06:33 [Zakim]
16:06:35 [tlebo]
gk: did we explicitly agree to 3 parts, or a nod to the editors?
16:07:06 [dcorsar]
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16:07:12 [GK]
16:07:12 [pgroth]
Vote Minutes of F2F2:
16:07:16 [Paolo]
16:07:18 [pgroth]
16:07:19 [tlebo]
16:07:21 [dgarijo]
16:07:24 [kai]
16:07:25 [Zakim]
16:07:37 [Luc]
ACCEPTED: Minutes of the Feb 23 2012 Telecon
16:07:37 [pgroth]
16:07:50 [Zakim]
16:07:58 [smiles]
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16:08:04 [jcheney]
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16:08:04 [Curt]
0 (not present)
16:08:08 [GK]
+1 (I think)
16:08:08 [MacTed]
16:08:11 [Mike_]
0 (not present)
16:08:15 [zednik]
zednik has joined #prov
16:08:17 [khalidbelhajjame]
16:08:23 [smiles]
+1 (from a very quick look)
16:08:24 [SamCoppens]
+0 (not present)
16:08:36 [jcheney]
16:08:46 [Luc]
ACCEPTED: Minutes of the second face to face meeting (F2F2)
16:08:55 [pgroth]
16:09:03 [GK]
Open actions
16:09:24 [GK]
PROV-O: not yet due
16:09:54 [GK]
Action-63? Khalid needs more time - con tinues
16:10:07 [GK]
Actions 64-67 continue
16:10:18 [GK]
Action 57 continues
16:10:18 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - 57
16:10:24 [dgarijo]
@Khalid: Jun said she was interested in helping you. Maybe she'll contact you.
16:10:43 [GK]
All please note that next teleconferences 11 mar - 25 Mar are one hour earlier in Europe
16:10:55 [MacTed]
sending .ics files as invitations, based on Boston-local-time, helps get correct times into calendars...
16:11:08 [GK]
NOTE: time shift ONLY for Europe
16:11:13 [MacTed]
Zakim, unmute me
16:11:13 [Zakim]
MacTed should no longer be muted
16:11:20 [pgroth]
agenda: Timetable for Release
16:11:24 [khalidbelhajjame]
@Daniel, yes Jun sent me a document, which I will use in the structure that I ll propose
16:11:30 [pgroth]
Topic: Timetable for Release
16:11:39 [dgarijo]
@Khalid: great
16:11:55 [pgroth]
16:12:07 [GK]
Timetable for syncronized release of PROV-DM and PROV-O:
16:12:41 [GK]
Paul: Timetable is very aggressive.
16:12:47 [Zakim]
16:12:53 [GK]
.. Many documents will follow same timeline
16:13:26 [GK]
.. beginning March - aim top have public WD5 at end of March for internal review
16:13:36 [GK]
.. 2-week review period
16:14:19 [GK]
.. feedback by ?? April, last call for all specifications at end of May
16:14:39 [GK]
.. Candidate REC in August
16:14:49 [GK]
.. Proposed REC in October
16:14:55 [GK]
.. REC in Jan 2013
16:15:22 [GK]
The next document needing to be looked at is PROV-O :
16:15:56 [GK]
.. WD2 draft public mid-April, then same timeframe as DM
16:16:48 [GK]
.. PROV0-AQ and Primer to follow same procedure as DM and Ont (End Mar internal, April(?) public)
16:17:08 [pgroth]
16:17:13 [pgroth]
16:17:16 [Luc]
16:17:18 [smiles]
16:17:20 [GK]
Paul: Need to be aggressive in ,making progress, cull topics that inhibit progress.
16:18:06 [GK]
Simon: what happens after WD3 for Primer and PAQ?
16:18:22 [pgroth]
16:18:25 [pgroth]
ack smiles
16:18:27 [pgroth]
16:18:31 [GK]
Paul: those are notes,m can be less aggressive, but need syncronized set for next round.
16:18:37 [pgroth]
16:18:53 [pgroth]
Topic: PROV-DM
16:19:03 [GK]
Topic: Update on PROV-DM:
16:19:41 [GK]
Luc: going through comments, have raised issues for each. This will lead to completion of WD4.
16:20:36 [pgroth]
16:20:39 [pgroth]
16:20:45 [GK]
.. plan for WD5 to tackle remaining issues in the charter, (collections, ..., ..., derivation). Also Jun's comments about structure of DM (why core + common relations). Edxpect all core technical issues to be addressed by WD5.
16:20:52 [pgroth]
16:21:28 [pgroth]
16:21:33 [GK]
Paul: on agenda for 2-3 weeks, proposal for simplifying several relations in DM to make it more compatible with Ontology.
16:21:43 [pgroth]
Proposal: remove id and and attribute from alternateOf, specializationOf, and hasNote
16:21:56 [tlebo]
16:22:00 [dgarijo]
16:22:01 [pgroth]
16:22:07 [Curt]
16:22:07 [GK]
alternativeOf, specializationOf, hasNote to be binary relations.
16:22:15 [pgroth]
16:22:17 [GK]
q+ to ask if these are still needed?
16:22:18 [khalidbelhajjame]
16:22:22 [Mike_]
16:22:25 [jcheney]
16:22:48 [pgroth]
ack GK
16:22:48 [Zakim]
GK, you wanted to ask if these are still needed?
16:23:24 [pgroth]
ack jcheney
16:23:28 [GK]
Paul: will deal with that separately.
16:23:54 [kai]
16:23:55 [GK]
James: (can't hear clearly)
16:24:21 [pgroth]
16:24:26 [GK]
James asked if binary relations contained typo. A> yes, there is typo.
16:24:27 [pgroth]
Proposal: remove id and and attribute from alternateOf, specializationOf, and hasNote
16:24:30 [tlebo]
16:24:31 [Curt]
16:24:32 [jcheney]
16:24:32 [smiles]
16:24:32 [MacTed]
16:24:33 [kai]
16:24:33 [Mike_]
16:24:33 [SamCoppens]
16:24:33 [satya]
16:24:34 [stephenc]
16:24:36 [dcorsar]
16:24:36 [GK]
16:24:37 [dgarijo]
16:24:39 [zednik]
16:24:41 [Paolo]
16:24:42 [khalidbelhajjame]
16:24:50 [pgroth]
accepted: remove id and and attribute from alternateOf, specializationOf, and hasNote
16:25:05 [pgroth]
Topic: PROV-O
16:25:07 [tlebo]
16:25:11 [GK]
Next topic: PROV-O :
16:25:12 [jcheney]
@GK: sorry, lots of us are all in same room at Dagstuhl so trying to avoid feedback
16:26:12 [GK]
(Missed something) Progress on design for catalogue of examples. Hoping for this second round to be final structure for examples.
16:26:43 [GK]
.. issues with alignment between DM, Primer and PROV-O. Have overview wiki page (link?)
16:27:01 [GK]
.. fielding issues from reviewers
16:27:41 [GK]
.. planning organization for next rev of prov-o HTML doc, following style of SiOC/FOAF/OPMV...
16:27:46 [pgroth]
16:27:50 [Luc]
16:28:09 [Luc]
16:28:17 [GK]
Luc: were you going to ask DM people to do something similar.
16:28:40 [pgroth]
16:28:43 [GK]
Tim: asking for annotations in document to facilitate comparison. Will send email with details.
16:28:46 [GK]
16:28:51 [pgroth]
ack GK
16:29:20 [pgroth]
16:29:24 [tlebo]
16:29:35 [pgroth]
16:29:41 [GK]
Cool :)
16:30:02 [pgroth]
16:30:21 [GK]
(GK question was about use of services: github for compare and RPI service for formatting; A: yes)
16:30:48 [dgarijo]
@tlebo:wasquotedFrom not mentioned?
16:31:00 [tlebo]
@gk, the commands in the email thread can be ignored. the wg can focus on the results at
16:31:29 [GK]
Khalid: need to think about minimal ... examples for every concept and property ...
16:32:00 [GK]
... details to help structure the ontology better. Also structuring the ontology into "models" - what does this mean?
16:32:13 [GK]
@tlebo I was curious about thye tooling :)
16:32:21 [pgroth]
Topic: Example Catalog
16:32:32 [GK]
Next Topic: example catalogue
16:32:50 [GK]
Tim put together a structure for this
16:32:53 [tlebo]
16:34:40 [GK]
Tim: link to description of proposed structure. Section 3 what we're trying to organize, section 4 patterns of organization. Use number to ensure uniqueness. Title optional, might change if that helps. Different directories for different formats.
16:34:53 [tlebo]
16:35:38 [GK]
.. transcriptions section... above path indicates in and out formats, can be extended across multiple steps
16:36:04 [GK]
.. query directory for query tests; compare for comparing output of queries
16:36:30 [GK]
.. document at any level for adding notes
16:37:10 [GK]
.. wiki namespace for references to wiki
16:37:33 [GK]
.. links to web pages
16:37:41 [pgroth]
16:37:54 [pgroth]
16:38:02 [GK]
@tlebo looked good to me first time, and getting better I think :)
16:38:15 [tlebo]
@gk, thanks. More feedback welcome :-)
16:38:28 [pgroth]
Consensus that we adopt this example catalog approach
16:38:31 [Paolo]
16:38:32 [satya]
16:38:33 [smiles]
+1 looks good
16:38:36 [zednik]
16:38:39 [kai]
16:38:39 [MacTed]
16:38:40 [GK]
Chair declares consensus to adopt this approach
16:39:00 [pgroth]
Accepted: adopt example catalog approach from agenda
16:39:07 [tlebo]
thanks, I'll press forward and make some real examples that people can follow.
16:39:11 [khalidbelhajjame]
Can we add a link to the wiki page created by Tim to the main wiki page
16:39:43 [pgroth]
16:39:44 [GK]
Paul: call for volunteers to populate with examples
16:39:47 [tlebo]
16:39:54 [Curt]
16:39:55 [SamCoppens]
16:40:04 [Mike_]
16:40:27 [Luc]
16:40:35 [pgroth]
Volunteers: Curt, Sam, Mike, Tim, Luc
16:40:49 [pgroth]
16:40:49 [tlebo]
please bug me if you have any questions about the organization.
16:40:52 [GK]
Paul: Others may contribute later!
16:41:00 [GK]
(Slick chairing :)
16:41:05 [tlebo]
16:41:10 [pgroth]
ack tlebo
16:41:40 [pgroth]
Topic: open discussion around accounts
16:41:44 [GK]
Tim: asks to revisit F2F decision about accounts - believed we had removed account scoping, but still have bundles.
16:41:47 [pgroth]
16:42:45 [Luc]
16:43:16 [GK]
GK: had same understanding, but wonderedf if "bundles" might be called "accounts". But not strong feeling about this.
16:44:01 [GK]
Luc: mechanism for giving name to provenance assertions is outside scope of DM. But assume that mechanism exists.
16:44:06 [khalidbelhajjame]
That's was my understanding too. When we need to speak about the provenance of a collection of provenance assertions, then we simply use Entity
16:44:22 [pgroth]
16:44:22 [GK]
.. would like to see accounts in model, but OIK to compromose.
16:44:26 [pgroth]
ack Luc
16:44:45 [pgroth]
16:44:55 [GK]
I recall something along the lines of what Luc said, too (assume mechanism for labeling bundles)
16:45:26 [Luc]
16:45:30 [GK]
Paulk: fundamentally agreed to make accounts a lot simpler.
16:45:48 [GK]
.. deferred discussion about where the mechanism might lie.
16:46:08 [pgroth]
ack Luc
16:46:30 [GK]
q+ to say I think the important thing may be to not prohibit private extensions for account-like functionality, but niot necessarily define now.
16:46:32 [tlebo]
q+ to say that the can of worms was citing the asserter and having name scopes.
16:46:56 [GK]
Luc: can we reproduce something similar to what ? did for ?
16:47:23 [tlebo]
I think Luc was citing
16:47:30 [GK]
.. what is the minimal notion of accout we can put in, without getting bogged down in details.
16:47:34 [tlebo]
16:47:36 [pgroth]
ack GK
16:47:36 [Zakim]
GK, you wanted to say I think the important thing may be to not prohibit private extensions for account-like functionality, but niot necessarily define now.
16:48:14 [pgroth]
ack tlebo
16:48:14 [Zakim]
tlebo, you wanted to say that the can of worms was citing the asserter and having name scopes.
16:48:39 [GK]
GK: thinks minimal notion of accounts may useful way move forwards
16:49:20 [GK]
Tim: think accounts are victiome of name scope issue, but minimal notion may avoid this problem, as long as timeline not impacted.
16:49:22 [Luc]
16:49:29 [pgroth]
ack Luc
16:49:58 [GK]
Paul: if we can do this without impacting timeline, that's good, but must not cause delay.
16:50:06 [pgroth]
16:50:10 [GK]
Luc: we could produce a NOTE on accounts if time runs out
16:50:38 [smiles]
16:50:40 [GK]
Meeting closed.
16:50:42 [Zakim]
16:50:43 [Zakim]
16:50:44 [dgarijo]
16:50:47 [Zakim]
16:50:49 [Zakim]
16:50:51 [Zakim]
16:50:53 [Zakim]
16:50:55 [Zakim]
16:50:57 [Zakim]
16:51:01 [Zakim]
16:51:03 [Zakim]
16:51:07 [Zakim]
- +1.443.708.aaaa
16:51:13 [Zakim]
16:51:17 [pgroth]
rrsagent, set log public
16:51:22 [pgroth]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:51:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate pgroth
16:51:23 [Zakim]
16:51:29 [pgroth]
trackbot, end telcon
16:51:29 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:51:36 [GK]
@paul: are you Ok from here - have meeting to retrun to now
16:51:37 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:51:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
16:51:38 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:51:38 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
16:51:39 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been tlebo, +1.443.708.aaaa, SamCoppens, Curt_Tilmes, MacTed, Sandro, GK, [IPcaller], khalidbelhajjame, Satya_Sahoo