15:01:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webtv
15:01:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-webtv-irc
15:01:04 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:01:04 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webtv
15:01:06 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
15:01:06 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:01:07 <trackbot> Meeting: Web and TV Interest Group Teleconference
15:01:07 <trackbot> Date: 23 February 2012
15:01:16 <glenn> zakim, this will be ttml
15:01:16 <Zakim> ok, glenn, I see Vide_TTML()10:00AM already started
15:01:23 <glenn> zakim, who's here
15:01:23 <Zakim> glenn, you need to end that query with '?'
15:01:28 <glenn> zakim, who's here?
15:01:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sean, ??P21, +49.893.aaaa, +1.858.847.aabb
15:01:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, glenn, masao, timeless, trackbot
15:01:41 <glenn> zakim, ??P21 is me
15:01:41 <Zakim> +glenn; got it
15:02:52 <Zakim> +Brussels
15:03:08 <glenn> chair: sean
15:03:30 <Zakim> +Philippe
15:04:16 <glenn> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2012Feb/0025.html
15:04:35 <glenn> zakim, aabb is Mike_Dolan
15:04:48 <Zakim> +Mike_Dolan; got it
15:05:45 <glenn> zakim, who's here?
15:05:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sean, glenn, +49.893.aaaa, Mike_Dolan, Brussels, Philippe
15:06:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, glenn, masao, timeless, trackbot
15:07:21 <glenn> sorry, wrong channel
15:07:30 <glenn> trackbot, stop meeting
15:07:30 <trackbot> Sorry, glenn, I don't understand 'trackbot, stop meeting'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
15:08:38 <Zakim> Vide_TTML()10:00AM has been moved to #tt by plh
15:48:42 <kaz> kaz has joined #webtv
15:50:18 <kaz> zakim, call kazuyuki-617
15:50:18 <Zakim> sorry, kaz, I don't know what conference this is
15:50:29 <kaz> zakim, this will be webtv
15:50:29 <Zakim> ok, kaz; I see UW_WebTVIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
15:50:33 <kaz> zakim, call kazuyuki-617
15:50:33 <Zakim> ok, kaz; the call is being made
15:50:34 <Zakim> UW_WebTVIG()11:00AM has now started
15:50:34 <Zakim> UW_WebTVIG()11:00AM has ended
15:50:35 <Zakim> Attendees were 
15:50:51 <kaz> zakim, call kazuyuki-617
15:50:51 <Zakim> ok, kaz; the call is being made
15:50:52 <Zakim> UW_WebTVIG()11:00AM has now started
15:50:53 <Zakim> +Kazuyuki
15:51:09 <kaz> zakim, who is here?
15:51:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see Kazuyuki
15:51:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see kaz, Zakim, RRSAgent, glenn, masao, timeless, trackbot
15:56:07 <Zakim> + +1.303.730.aaaa
15:56:22 <kaz> zakim, aaaa is Clarke
15:56:22 <Zakim> +Clarke; got it
15:57:02 <kaz_> kaz_ has joined #webtv
15:59:04 <joesteele> joesteele has joined #webtv
15:59:10 <kaz> Meeting: Media Pipeline Task Force Teleconf
15:59:57 <Johnsim> Johnsim has joined #webtv
16:00:05 <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aabb
16:00:12 <kaz> zakim, aabb is Joe
16:00:13 <joesteele> Zakim, aabb is joesteele
16:00:21 <Zakim> +??P11
16:00:28 <kaz> zakim, ??P11 is Bob_Lund
16:00:28 <Zakim> +Joe; got it
16:00:30 <Zakim> sorry, joesteele, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
16:00:35 <kaz> zakim, Joe is Joe_Steele
16:00:44 <Zakim> +Bob_Lund; got it
16:00:47 <Clarke> Clarke has joined #webtv
16:00:52 <Zakim> +Joe_Steele; got it
16:01:15 <Clarke_> Clarke_ has joined #webtv
16:01:41 <Zakim> +Jason
16:01:45 <jasonlewis> jasonlewis has joined #webtv
16:01:47 <adrianba> adrianba has joined #webtv
16:01:55 <kaz> Present: Kaz, Clarke, Joe, Bob, Jason
16:02:38 <Johnsim> I will not be able to attend by phone - sorry
16:02:59 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:03:01 <kaz> zakim, [Microsoft] is Kilroy_Hughes
16:03:01 <Clarke> OK
16:03:16 <Clarke> Kilroy is here
16:03:25 <kaz> Present: Kaz, Clarke, Joe, Bob, Jason, Kilroy, John(IRC)
16:04:19 <kaz> Present: Kaz, Clarke_Stevens, Joe_Steele, Bob_Lund, Jason_Lewis, Kilroy_Hughes, John_Simmons(IRC), Mark_Watson, Jan_Lindquist
16:04:22 <duncanr> duncanr has joined #webtv
16:04:29 <kaz> Present+ Mark_Vickers
16:04:35 <Zakim> +Kilroy_Hughes; got it
16:04:52 <Zakim> +Jan_Lindquist
16:04:56 <Zakim> +MarkW
16:05:03 <glenn> zakim, who's here?
16:05:27 <Zakim> +Mark_Vickers
16:05:41 <R_Berkoff> R_Berkoff has joined #webtv
16:05:41 <Zakim> +??P36
16:05:56 <kaz> zakim, ??P36 is Adrian
16:05:59 <Zakim> +Duncan
16:06:10 <joesteele> Scribe: joesteele
16:06:18 <joesteele> ScribeNick: joe
16:06:23 <Zakim> +Russell
16:06:25 <glenn> zakim, [Microsoft] has adrian
16:06:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see Kazuyuki, Clarke, Joe_Steele, Bob_Lund, Jason, Kilroy_Hughes, Jan_Lindquist, MarkW, Mark_Vickers, ??P36, Duncan, Russell
16:06:33 <glenn> zakim, ??P36 is me
16:06:36 <joesteele> Meeting: Web & TV Interest Group MPTF
16:06:50 <kaz> zakim, Adrian is Glenn
16:07:02 <joesteele> discussing the proposal from Micosoft, Google and Netflix
16:07:06 <kaz> Present+ Adrian, Glenn, Duncan
16:07:08 <Zakim> +Philipp
16:07:12 <Clarke> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/MPTF/Agenda_Telco_23rd_February_2012
16:07:17 <mav> mav has joined #webtv
16:07:19 <joesteele> Chair: Clark Stevens
16:07:26 <kaz> Present+ Philipp
16:07:58 <joesteele> Mark - please walk us through the proposal
16:08:08 <Zakim> +Adrian; got it
16:08:20 <joesteele> -- wait until I am in front of my computer
16:08:22 <Zakim> sorry, glenn, I do not recognize a party named '[Microsoft]'
16:08:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see R_Berkoff, duncanr, adrianba, jasonlewis, Clarke_, Clarke, Johnsim, joesteele, kaz, Zakim, RRSAgent, glenn, masao, timeless, trackbot
16:08:27 <ph> ph has joined #webtv
16:08:28 <joesteele> clark: Adrian -- how about you
16:08:32 <Zakim> I already had ??P36 as Adrian, glenn
16:08:39 <kaz> s/Mark -/Mark:/
16:08:53 <Zakim> +Glenn; got it
16:08:59 <joesteele> having some feedback
16:09:06 <kaz> zakim, who is noisy?
16:09:27 <kaz> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/MPTF/Agenda_Telco_23rd_February_2012
16:09:45 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
16:09:47 <joesteele> clark: have been anticipating this proposal -- submitted to HTML group and our group for our perspective
16:09:50 <ph> q+
16:09:52 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:09:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-webtv-minutes.html kaz
16:09:56 <kaz> q?
16:10:01 <joesteele> clark: any comments on this proposal?
16:10:20 <joesteele> ph: since this was submitted to HTML group -- this is intended for HTML5
16:10:37 <kaz> s/Web and TV Interest Group Teleconference/Media Pipeline Task Force Teleconference/
16:10:44 <joesteele> kilroy: yes to make it available to HTML -- but not part of the monolithic document
16:10:48 <Zakim> -Duncan
16:10:52 <Zakim> kaz, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Clarke (66%), Glenn (1%)
16:10:55 <Zakim> +Duncan
16:11:02 <joesteele> kilroy: could be a parallel document
16:11:03 <Zakim> -MarkW
16:11:08 <ph> ack me
16:11:15 <Zakim> +MarkW
16:11:20 <Paul> Paul has joined #webtv
16:11:30 <joesteele> MarkW: could be published as a separate spec -- kind of an extension
16:11:44 <joesteele> MarkW: what do we do with features that don't make the HTML5 cut?
16:12:03 <joesteele> MarkW: not resolved where this would go yet
16:12:39 <Clarke> Actual proposal: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html
16:12:44 <joesteele> ser: not clear when HTML5 would repsond -- just wanted to double check on the planning
16:13:21 <joesteele> MarkW: this was meant to respond to this issue: (what issue#?)
16:13:22 <ph> s/ser:/ph:/
16:13:30 <mark> mark has joined #webtv
16:13:57 <kaz> i/discussing the proposal from Micosoft/topic: discussion of new Content Protection Proposal (Netflix, Google, Microsoft)/
16:14:07 <ph> markw: was submitted on this specific issue since content protection was mentioned in this issue - but expect longer discussion, not 
16:14:10 <joesteele> glenn: this is an orthogonal proposal not related to 179 except for parameter expression
16:14:22 <joesteele> MarkW: should I give an overview?
16:14:54 <mark> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-media/encrypted-media.html
16:15:02 <joesteele> based in part on the Netflix proposal -- incorporates work others were also doing -- not complete
16:15:11 <joesteele> hopefully there will be some discussion
16:15:11 <kaz> i/(what issue#?)/(HTML issue-179)/
16:15:40 <joesteele> -- giving an overview of the doc now
16:16:13 <joesteele> MarkW: application is in charge of passing the authentication to the backend
16:16:22 <joesteele> MarkW: user agent is just passing the data through
16:16:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-webtv-minutes.html kaz
16:16:51 <joesteele> MarkW: clearKey is basic encryption 
16:17:16 <joesteele> MarkW: not part of the proposal how the CDM gets embedded or whether it is software or hardware
16:17:19 <kaz> i/discussing the proposal from Micosoft/scribenick: joesteele/
16:17:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-webtv-minutes.html kaz
16:17:31 <joesteele> MarkW: could also include coding and/or rendering of the media
16:17:45 <joesteele> MarkW: represents the secure media pipeline on the device
16:17:46 <kaz> s/Micosoft/Microsoft/
16:18:08 <kaz> chair: Clarke
16:18:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-webtv-minutes.html kaz
16:18:17 <joesteele> MarkW: not returning the decrypted frame to the browser
16:18:37 <joesteele> MarkW: the rest is the details of the exchange
16:18:55 <joesteele> s/the exchange/key exchange/
16:19:09 <joesteele> -- discussion of the key exchange
16:19:59 <joesteele> MarkW: the keymessage is sent to the license server and recieved back to hand to the CDM
16:20:08 <joesteele> MarkW: may be multiple key exchanges
16:20:22 <joesteele> s/recieved/received/
16:20:37 <joesteele> MarkW: also an extension to the canPlayType()
16:20:48 <mav> q+
16:21:11 <joesteele> clark: concern I have seen raised -- belief that the frames would be available unencrypted
16:21:27 <kaz> s/clark:/clarke:/
16:21:41 <joesteele> MarkW: the diagram is a little misleading here -- looks like it comes back to the browser but is dependent on the CDM
16:21:53 <glenn> zakim, who's here?
16:21:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see Kazuyuki, Clarke, Joe_Steele, Bob_Lund, Jason, Kilroy_Hughes, Jan_Lindquist, Mark_Vickers, Glenn, Russell, Philipp, Duncan, MarkW
16:21:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see mark, Paul, ph, mav, R_Berkoff, duncanr, adrianba, jasonlewis, Clarke_, Clarke, Johnsim, joesteele, kaz, Zakim, RRSAgent, glenn, masao, timeless, trackbot
16:22:04 <Zakim> + +1.908.848.aacc
16:22:04 <joesteele> MarkW: you can imagine a system where it would come back but the frames would not be well protected then
16:22:32 <joesteele> MarkW: a CDM like that would be useful for some content -- not all 
16:22:57 <joesteele> MarkW: some content would not fall into this category - where decoder is tied closer to the CDM
16:23:15 <joesteele> MarkW: decrypted frames do not come back to the user agent there
16:23:22 <joesteele> MarkW:  that is an unsolved problem right now
16:24:37 <kaz_> kaz_ has joined #webtv
16:24:46 <kaz_> zakim, aacc is Paul
16:24:46 <Zakim> +Paul; got it
16:24:51 <joesteele> MarkW: if decrypted frames are not coming back -- overlay would be the simplest implementation
16:25:04 <kaz_> Present+ Paul_Gausman
16:25:12 <joesteele> MarkW: would prefer if frames could be properly composited
16:25:39 <joesteele> MarkW: would need for user agent to be able to talk to the graphics hardware to do the compositing properly
16:26:10 <joesteele> MarkW: can imagine this never happening for strongly protected content
16:26:31 <joesteele> Jason: is this akin to the hardware accellerated video tag?
16:27:02 <Clarke> q?
16:27:02 <kaz_> q?
16:27:19 <joesteele> mav: some questions about comparisons with the previous proposal
16:27:34 <joesteele> mav: previous proposal has been removed -- that is not good
16:27:36 <kaz_> ack mav
16:27:46 <joesteele> mav: would like to see it put back 
16:28:03 <joesteele> MarkW: should be able to see it in the history
16:28:19 <joesteele> mav: should have a label to make it more accessibl
16:28:26 <joesteele> s/accessibl/accessible/
16:28:40 <joesteele> mav: the keys did not pass thru JS in the old proposal, now they do?
16:28:49 <Zakim> -Jan_Lindquist
16:28:52 <joesteele> MarkW: in both proposals the messages pass through JS
16:29:45 <joesteele> MarkW: perhaps the name is wrong - is not necessarily a "key"
16:29:53 <joesteele> MarkW: for clearKey the message is actually a key
16:30:29 <joesteele> mav: would suggest that this should be further clarified
16:30:31 <Zakim> +Jan_Lindquist
16:30:31 <adrianba> here is the old proposal: http://www.w3.org/2011/webtv/wiki/index.php?title=MPTF/Netflix_Content_Protection&oldid=1870
16:31:01 <joesteele> mav: description of the hardware support is brought in would be good with diagrams
16:31:10 <joesteele> joesteele says +1
16:31:10 <jasonlewis> q+
16:31:22 <kaz_> q?
16:31:33 <kaz_> ack jason
16:31:35 <joesteele> jasonlewis: is the clearkey meant to be like HLS?
16:31:55 <joesteele> MarkW: is it akin to that in that the message is just the key
16:32:08 <joesteele> MarkW: how key is applied depends on the container format
16:32:43 <joesteele> MarkW: different from HLS in that the user agent is sending the request in HLS - with clearKey it is the JS application sending the request
16:32:45 <Zakim> -Bob_Lund
16:33:33 <Zakim> -Mark_Vickers
16:33:40 <joesteele> joesteele: sending control messages to the CDM?
16:33:54 <joesteele> MarkW:  not in this proposal except for key release in section 4
16:34:44 <joesteele> MarkW: the main reason for not having generic messages, it does not describe how the system works
16:35:05 <joesteele> MarkW: should be possible to have a JS app which just knows the message passing bit
16:35:20 <jasonlewis> q-
16:35:33 <joesteele> MarkW: some preference has been expressed for exposing more features 
16:35:53 <joesteele> MarkW: key release facilitates managing the key life cycle
16:36:29 <joesteele> MarkW: you may need to know how may keys are extant, or charge for the content on a rental basis
16:37:05 <joesteele> MarkW: could be managed from the JS app layer, but could be gamed by modifying the JS
16:37:42 <joesteele> MarkW: key release mechanism allows for a secure mechanism for managing the keys 
16:37:57 <joesteele> MarkW: this is outside the purview of the HTML media element
16:38:49 <kaz_> present: Kaz_Ashimura, Clarke_Stevens, Joe_Steele, Bob_Lund, Jason_Lewis, Kilroy_Hughes, Adrian_Bateman, Mark_Vickers, Glenn_Adams, Russell_Berkoff, Philipp_Hoschka, Duncan_Rowden, Mark_Watson, Paul_Gausman, Jan_Lindquist
16:39:04 <joesteele> joesteele: what about birth of life?
16:39:30 <joesteele> MarkW: could call the generateKeyReq early on to help this
16:39:49 <joesteele> MarkW: is is assumed that the CDM needs some data about the media to be initialized
16:39:57 <joesteele> s/is is/it is/
16:40:07 <joesteele> MarkW: possible you could do this
16:40:48 <joesteele> joesteele: will send these notes to the HTML list
16:41:05 <joesteele> clark: procedural note -- how should we best handle comments like this?
16:41:21 <joesteele> s/clark:/Clarke/
16:41:41 <joesteele> MarkW: since it was proposed to that group -- send comments to that group
16:42:02 <joesteele> Clark: maybe we could come to agreement in this group and submit one set of comments
16:42:17 <kaz_> s/Clark/Clarke:/
16:42:21 <joesteele> MarkW: this should get included in the formal system
16:42:48 <kaz_> s/Clarke procedural/Clarke: procedural/
16:42:50 <joesteele> Clark: encourage people to participate in the HTML WG as well on this
16:43:00 <kaz_> s/Clark:/Clarke:/
16:43:37 <joesteele> glenn: note that the proposal was in response to issue 179 -- not clear that it is proposed as an extension to HTML5 
16:43:52 <joesteele> glenn: not clear we are chartered to propose specs yet
16:44:04 <joesteele> glenn: how is this work being done?
16:44:21 <joesteele> MarkW: proposal is submitted to the HTML WG
16:44:42 <joesteele> Clarke: we are chartered to provide comments
16:44:56 <adrianba> the html wg made a call for html.next proposals - this was discussed at TPAC too
16:45:17 <adrianba> right now we've simply submitted an informal proposal document for discussion
16:45:26 <joesteele> glenn: not following procedure currently - who did this come from?
16:45:28 <adrianba> i hope that this will be adopted as an editor's draft in the group
16:45:35 <joesteele> MarkW: came in as a proposal from Google
16:45:46 <joesteele> glenn: not clear as a reader of the proposal
16:45:46 <Zakim> -Jan_Lindquist
16:46:13 <joesteele> s/issue 179/ISSUE-179/
16:46:31 <joesteele> MarkW: some behind the scenes coordination going on
16:46:52 <kaz_> q?
16:47:09 <joesteele> glenn: does this IG need to bless this proposal or provide input?
16:47:21 <joesteele> mav: do not need to bless but should provide input
16:47:30 <joesteele> +1
16:47:38 <kaz_> q+
16:48:05 <joesteele> kaz: thought we had our own ISSUE-40 for this?
16:48:35 <joesteele> kaz: should this IG continue discussion on ISSUE-40 and bring the conclusion to HTML WG? 
16:48:54 <joesteele> kaz: or should we discuss ISSUE-179 and bring that discussion to HTML WG?
16:49:20 <joesteele> mav: should address, likely to be other issues we do not directly raise with HTML WG
16:49:31 <joesteele> mav: we have an opportunity to provide feedback
16:49:42 <joesteele> kaz: clarifying our scope would be fine
16:50:01 <kaz_> s/mav:/Clarke:/
16:50:04 <kaz_> s/mav:/Clarke:/
16:50:08 <joesteele> glenn: I am possibly ok with that -- a little concerned still with connection between ISSUE-179 and this proposal
16:50:18 <joesteele> glenn: some confusion in the WG still
16:50:25 <Clarke> q?
16:50:41 <joesteele> glenn: led people to believe that 179 is concerned with content protection and it is not
16:51:11 <joesteele> kaz: if you have a concern with 179 it should be raised in the HTML WG -- we should focus on 40
16:51:13 <kaz_> ask k
16:51:17 <joesteele> -- agreement 
16:51:19 <kaz_> ack k
16:51:26 <kaz_> s/ask k//
16:51:43 <joesteele> glenn: expected actions from us on this proposal?
16:52:13 <joesteele> ?? - we hope so - asked Mark to present to this group
16:52:27 <kaz_> s/?? -/Clarke:/
16:52:32 <joesteele> thanks
16:52:39 <jasonlewis> q+
16:52:55 <adrianba> HTML WG chairs review of ISSUE-179 is here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Feb/0298.html
16:53:00 <kaz_> ack jason
16:53:16 <joesteele> jasonlewis: re: the issue in the draft spec -- how do we add our own issues to this draft?
16:53:48 <joesteele> clarke: raise issues on the wiki - which may not match those in the proposal
16:54:04 <joesteele> clarke: if authos then want to bring back to the proposal -- that would be great
16:54:12 <joesteele> s/athos/authors/
16:54:18 <joesteele> s/authos/authors/
16:54:40 <joesteele> clarke: any other comments?
16:54:48 <joesteele> clarke: closing the call
16:55:09 <joesteele> clarke: add any issues to the wiki
16:55:17 <Zakim> -Glenn
16:55:19 <Zakim> -Paul
16:55:19 <joesteele> clarke: thanks everyone
16:55:19 <Zakim> -Philipp
16:55:20 <Zakim> -Jason
16:55:21 <Zakim> -Kilroy_Hughes
16:55:25 <Zakim> -Duncan
16:55:28 <joesteele> zakim, bye
16:55:28 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Kazuyuki, +1.303.730.aaaa, Clarke, +1.408.536.aabb, Bob_Lund, Joe_Steele, Jason, Kilroy_Hughes, Jan_Lindquist, MarkW, Mark_Vickers,
16:55:28 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webtv
16:55:31 <Zakim> ... Duncan, Russell, Philipp, Glenn, +1.908.848.aacc, Paul
16:55:39 <joesteele> rrsagent, make log public
16:55:42 <kaz_> [adjourned]
16:55:42 <duncanr> duncanr has left #webtv
16:55:48 <joesteele> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:55:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-webtv-minutes.html joesteele
16:56:00 <joesteele> rrsagent, bye
16:56:00 <RRSAgent> I see no action items