16:01:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
16:01:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-html-a11y-irc
16:01:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:01:52 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
16:01:53 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
16:01:53 <trackbot> Date: 23 February 2012
16:02:35 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-a11y
16:02:50 <MichaelC> zakim, this is 2119
16:03:57 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #html-a11y
16:04:21 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM
16:04:50 <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
16:05:03 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:06:07 <Zakim> +Cooper
16:06:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, ??P29, [IPcaller], Cooper (muted)
16:06:25 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P29 is Janina_Sajka
16:06:39 <MichaelC> zakim, IPcaller is Steve_Faulkner
16:06:54 <JF> JF has joined #html-a11y
16:07:13 <janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y Task Force Teleconference
16:07:13 <janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka
16:07:13 <janina> agenda+ Meetings on 1 & 8 March: Who's Available?
16:07:13 <janina> agenda+ Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mapping; Text
16:07:13 <janina> agenda+ Issue-203 Media Element Text Description http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/203
16:07:16 <janina> agenda+ Issues30, -31,  -204
16:07:19 <janina> agenda+ F2F for the TF?
16:07:21 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
16:07:24 <janina> agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
16:07:26 <janina> agenda+ Identify Scribe for the next TF teleconference http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
16:07:29 <janina> agenda+ be done
16:07:33 <MichaelC> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Feb/0162.html
16:07:44 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
16:07:53 <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
16:08:07 <MichaelC> zakim, next item
16:08:21 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
16:08:37 <Zakim> +Steve_Faulkner; got it
16:10:10 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Meetings on 1 & 8 March: Who's Available?" taken up [from janina]
16:10:19 <MichaelC> js: who's unavailable next week?
16:10:21 <MichaelC> John, Janina, Léonie at CSUN
16:10:30 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:10:37 <MichaelC> js: what about following week?
16:10:44 <MichaelC> zakim, IPcaller is Léonie_Watson
16:11:11 <Zakim> +Judy
16:11:13 <Zakim> +Léonie_Watson; got it
16:11:32 <MichaelC> Janina, Michael, Cynthia at PF FtF and / or SXSW
16:11:34 <janina> q?
16:11:39 <janina> q?
16:12:24 <MichaelC> jb: would like to schedule a fallback meeting time
16:12:31 <MichaelC> js: haven't succeeded in past at finding a time
16:12:50 <MichaelC> jf: hard to do meetings after start of working day Pacific
16:13:03 <LeonieW> LeonieW has joined #html-a11y
16:13:20 <MichaelC> RESOLUTION: Next meeting is 15 March 2012
16:14:47 <MichaelC> js: note some of us will have face to face opportunities at the upcoming locales and may have opportunity to get work done
16:15:20 <MichaelC> zakim, next item
16:15:20 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mapping; Text" taken up [from janina]
16:16:07 <MichaelC> lw: Bug triage meeting once every other week to track new bugs
16:16:14 <MichaelC> most not accessibility
16:16:30 <LeonieW> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16018
16:16:33 <MichaelC> but want input on a couple
16:17:04 <MichaelC> wanted to explore whether form controls that are disabled should be focusable or not
16:17:49 <MichaelC> HTML doesn't exclude disabled controls
16:17:54 <MichaelC> the bug requests that they be non-focusable
16:19:18 <MichaelC> cs: think most browsers remove them from tab order
16:20:21 <MichaelC> lw: bug filer goes into specifics of UA behaviour
16:20:33 <MichaelC> jf: if disabled should be non-focusable
16:22:02 <MichaelC> mc: checking spec, apparently via a double negative spec says disabled form controls are not focusable
16:22:14 <MichaelC> so bug is on what happens if you use tabindex
16:22:45 <MichaelC> js: benefit to landing on controls and knowing they're disabled, otoh benefit to not being bothered with them
16:23:32 <MichaelC> cs: propose correct behaviour would be not to focus disabled controls
16:23:44 <MichaelC> mc: even if tabindex set?
16:24:43 <MichaelC> cs: yes
16:24:50 <Zakim> -Judy
16:24:51 <Zakim> +Judy
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16:25:04 <MichaelC> mc: ok, but would change meaning of tabindex in a limited circumstance
16:25:14 <MichaelC> cs: means "disabled" is a higher order bit than "tabindex"
16:25:32 <MichaelC> RESOLUTION: add a11ytf keyword to 16018
16:26:18 <MichaelC> lw: note bug triage sub-team is low on members
16:26:34 <MichaelC> only Léonie, Michael, Hans regularly participating
16:26:43 <MichaelC> -- AAPI
16:26:59 <MichaelC> cs: working on the spec
16:27:11 <MichaelC> table is more dynamic now so easier to use, since lots of columns
16:27:15 <MichaelC> some details being added
16:27:32 <MichaelC> -- Text
16:28:12 <MichaelC> jb: discussed meta name=generator and denial of reopen request
16:28:56 <MichaelC> thought the denial didn't address the main point
16:29:22 <MichaelC> and questions were on tangential aspects
16:29:42 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
16:29:54 <MichaelC> question of pursuing Formal Objection, something the text sub-team thought might be needed in next few weeks
16:30:00 <MichaelC> also looked at HTML-ISSUE-204
16:30:08 <MichaelC> aria-describedby vs longdesc
16:30:12 <Zakim> +Rich
16:30:21 <MichaelC> have requested coordination discussion
16:30:56 <JF> +q
16:31:01 <MichaelC> also looked at location of alt guidance change proposal
16:31:04 <MichaelC> is more of a TF item now
16:32:18 <MichaelC> need a way to keep discussion moving, given that meetings canceled next couple weeks
16:32:35 <MichaelC> and address questions already raised
16:32:50 <MichaelC> finally looked at figcaption
16:32:55 <MichaelC> ended up not filing a change proposal
16:33:46 <MichaelC> evidence for cutoff length wasn't as strong as expected
16:34:10 <MichaelC> still interested in this issue, may work in background and bring forward later
16:34:27 <MichaelC> so this is no longer on the urgent path
16:34:32 <MichaelC> Text sub-team also not meeting next week
16:34:34 <MichaelC> ack j
16:34:51 <MichaelC> jf: am in process of putting together a test suite for aria-describedby
16:35:02 <janina> ack j
16:35:15 <MichaelC> focus on HTML-ISSUE-30 as well as HTML-ISSUE-204
16:35:50 <MichaelC> note your blog entry on aria-hidden useful
16:36:12 <MichaelC> <http://john.foliot.ca/aria-hidden/>
16:36:43 <MichaelC> I plan to do same for aria-describedby as I did for aria-hidden
16:36:47 <Judy> Judy has joined #html-a11y
16:37:03 <MichaelC> rs: why use aria-describedby in place of longdesc? it's a hack
16:37:14 <MichaelC> jb: think there's not understanding of the issues behind it
16:37:31 <MichaelC> rs: setting aria-hidden not necessarily hidden from AAPI
16:37:38 <MichaelC> ARIA UAIG permits not hiding it
16:37:40 <Judy> rrsagent, make minutes
16:37:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-html-a11y-minutes.html Judy
16:38:35 <MichaelC> want to address via new ARIA property down the road, not misuse the current version of ARIA
16:38:46 <MichaelC> jb: need to clarify some stuff
16:40:29 <MichaelC> <discussion of what to clarify where>
16:42:06 <MichaelC> cs, rs: have proposal to add aria-describedat in ARIA 1.1
16:42:26 <MichaelC> js: but that doesn't solve the immediate situation, so we still have to address
16:42:59 <MichaelC> jf: there are some contradictions that need to be clarified in ARIA
16:43:21 <MichaelC> and then state that the current HTML proposal doesn't meet the use case requirements
16:43:39 <MichaelC> -- Canvas
16:43:48 <MichaelC> rs: all change proposals are in
16:44:05 <MichaelC> one on caret and selection
16:44:17 <MichaelC> resubmitted an earlier one minus text-based line and focus ring
16:44:21 <MichaelC> because what's in spec now is fine
16:44:40 <MichaelC> frank submitted a proposal to use bounds of object for hit testing
16:44:43 <MichaelC> hasn't been reviewed
16:45:18 <MichaelC> would probably need some proposed ARIA 1.1 features to support
16:45:26 <MichaelC> cs: is this what we discussed last November?
16:45:38 <MichaelC> rs: he submitted one that we did discuss
16:46:04 <MichaelC> but also another one that uses caret and selection in script apis
16:46:08 <MichaelC> that we haven't examined
16:46:46 <MichaelC> there's a third change proposal that you shouldn't do rich text editing in canvas because it's too hard
16:46:57 <MichaelC> not sure what to do with that as a change proposal
16:47:11 <MichaelC> working on a presentation for SXSW that will demo this in three browsers
16:47:30 <MichaelC> when will change proposals be reviewed?
16:47:34 <MichaelC> js: it's started
16:47:46 <MichaelC> rs: due to travel over next month, will be hard to respond to counter-proposals
16:48:03 <MichaelC> js: hasn't come up yet, can request these things not be tossed our way too quickly
16:48:18 <Judy> q+
16:48:23 <MichaelC> ack j
16:48:24 <janina> ack j
16:48:56 <MichaelC> cs: asks Rich to send concerns to Frank
16:49:03 <MichaelC> jb: CS can you help on that?
16:49:12 <MichaelC> cs: can't get response inside Microsoft before 29th
16:49:18 <MichaelC> <of March?>
16:50:03 <Judy> q+
16:50:11 <MichaelC> would be helpful to ask chairs to put this at end of queue
16:50:31 <MichaelC> <March company deadlines make hard to work on W3C stuff right now>
16:52:25 <MichaelC> jb: process guidance confusing and affecting our response times
16:53:25 <MichaelC> zakim, next item
16:53:25 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, MichaelC
16:53:38 <Judy> q-
16:53:41 <MichaelC> zakim, next item
16:53:41 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Issue-203 Media Element Text Description http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/203" taken up [from janina]
16:54:25 <Judy> zakim, who's here?
16:54:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, Janina_Sajka, Steve_Faulkner, Cooper, Cynthia_Shelly, Léonie_Watson, Judy, Rich
16:54:27 <Zakim> On IRC I see Judy, richardschwerdtfe, paulc, LeonieW, JF, Stevef, Zakim, RRSAgent, davidb, MichaelC, janina, [tm], MikeSmith, trackbot
16:54:32 <MichaelC> js: we don't have a whole
16:54:47 <MichaelC> bifurcation of the proposals is affecting our success
16:55:11 <MichaelC> understand why need to have breaking down of the problem
16:55:19 <MichaelC> but we're chasing details and not meeting the whole
16:55:26 <MichaelC> maybe not useful to pursue details
16:55:46 <MichaelC> jf: would like to request HTML-ISSUE-203 be put on hold until outstanding issues resolved
16:56:05 <MichaelC> js: chairs were happy to put processing on hold, but wanted a conditional proposal in by deadline
16:56:18 <MichaelC> but I'm not convinced the conditional proposal working in our faour
16:56:31 <MichaelC> s/faour/favour/
16:56:56 <MichaelC> cs: could we do a conditional proposal that outlines the various conditions we would support?
16:57:00 <MichaelC> jf: that's a
16:57:04 <MichaelC> js: decision tree
16:57:22 <MichaelC> jf: all the options we're bringing forward are in limbo
16:57:44 <MichaelC> don't know how to put together a change proposal
16:58:01 <MichaelC> maybe CS proposal not to close issue until dependencies resolved is the way to go
16:58:25 <MichaelC> cs: there was proposal to resolve using resolution to HTML-ISSUE-30
16:58:34 <MichaelC> but what happens if we're not happy with resolution to that?
16:58:40 <MichaelC> would be good to provide options
16:58:52 <MichaelC> js: an aria-describedat solution might work here also
16:59:01 <MichaelC> jf: but that doesn't exist yet
16:59:14 <MichaelC> and hard to substantiate a proposal with something that doesn't yet exist
16:59:22 <janina> q?
16:59:24 <MichaelC> <related examples tossed around>
16:59:49 <MichaelC> so we're chasing our tails
17:00:02 <MichaelC> js: we're getting pushed into talking about Y when we need to talk about X
17:01:19 <MichaelC> cs: we had come to agreement on a conditional proposal that seemed to satisfy everyone
17:01:30 <Judy> q+
17:01:34 <MichaelC> we should write that, backing out might seem like bad faith
17:01:43 <MichaelC> jf: but don't know how to write it sensibly
17:01:54 <MichaelC> to many if-then-else in it
17:01:59 <MichaelC> but will take a try
17:02:16 <MichaelC> js: reminder we're past deadline, so need it by tomorrow
17:02:27 <MichaelC> jf: do we let it go then?
17:02:35 <MichaelC> jb: do proposal as a placeholder, we can refine later
17:02:51 <MichaelC> prefer not to drop this
17:03:08 <MichaelC> ack j
17:03:11 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
17:03:12 <Zakim> -Léonie_Watson
17:03:13 <Zakim> -Judy
17:03:14 <Zakim> -Janina_Sajka
17:03:16 <Zakim> -Rich
17:03:20 <Zakim> -Steve_Faulkner
17:03:22 <Zakim> -Cooper
17:03:50 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
17:03:50 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
17:03:50 <Zakim> Attendees were John_Foliot, Cooper, Cynthia_Shelly, Janina_Sajka, Steve_Faulkner, Judy, Léonie_Watson, Rich
17:05:46 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
17:05:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-html-a11y-minutes.html MichaelC
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18:56:31 <Judy> Judy has left #html-a11y