17:55:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #text
17:55:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/14-text-irc
17:55:53 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
17:55:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/14-text-minutes.html janina
17:59:05 <janina> agenda+ note text-related issues re-opened and/or still pending decisions
17:59:05 <janina> agenda+ note extensive discussion only on HTML WG list on longdesc; discuss and assign actions as needed
17:59:05 <janina> agenda+ discuss CP for WG location of alt guidance, and recommend for TF support as appropriate http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/movealt
17:59:05 <janina> agenda+ discuss CP for figcaption
17:59:05 <janina> agenda+ confirm status up to date at http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Accessibility_Change_Proposal_Status
17:59:07 <janina> agenda+ note any procedural issues needing clarification
17:59:09 <janina> agenda+ confirm next meeting; identify next scribe; adjourn
17:59:53 <Zakim> Team_(text)17:55Z has now started
18:00:00 <Zakim> +??P1
18:00:08 <janina>  zakim, ??P1 is Janina_Sajka
18:00:08 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
18:02:02 <janina> zakim, take up item 1
18:02:02 <Zakim> agendum 1. "note text-related issues re-opened and/or still pending decisions" taken up [from janina]
18:03:51 <Zakim> +Judy
18:11:00 <Judy> Judy has joined #text
18:11:07 <Judy> agenda?
18:12:25 <Judy> meeting: HTML-A11Y Text Alternatives Sub-Group
18:12:31 <Judy> chair: judy
18:12:38 <Judy> scribe: judy
18:13:23 <Judy> js: chairs re-open title last week
18:13:36 <Judy> ...they have not yet re-opened meta name generator
18:13:56 <Judy> ...that has been pending only a week or two so far
18:14:36 <janina> Filed
18:14:36 <janina> Issue-31 Inappropriate Alt in HTML Spec -- Steve
18:14:36 <janina> Issue-31 Location of Alt Authoring Guidance Reconsideration -- Steve
18:14:36 <janina> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/movealt
18:14:36 <janina> Filed
18:14:36 <janina> Issue-31 Meta Generator Reconsideration Request
18:14:38 <janina> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming -- Steve
18:14:41 <janina> Accepted
18:14:43 <janina> Issue-80 Title Reconsideration Request -- Steve
18:14:46 <janina> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitlev2
18:14:47 <janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Feb/0073.html
18:14:49 <janina> See also Issue-192 below
18:14:51 <janina> Filed
18:14:53 <janina> Issue-131 Canvas
18:14:56 <janina> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/131
18:14:57 <janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Dec/0048.html
18:14:59 <janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Dec/0059.html
18:15:02 <janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Feb/0086.html
18:15:04 <janina> Filed
18:15:05 <janina> Issue-164 HGroup
18:15:08 <janina> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/164
18:15:09 <janina> Message-ID: <20120206190736.GD5717@sonata.rednote.net>
18:15:11 <janina> Filed -- But is this also 80 above?
18:15:13 <janina> Issue-192 Title -- Steve
18:15:15 <janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Jan/0076.html
18:15:17 <janina> Filed
18:15:20 <janina> Issue-193 Bad CSS Example
18:15:21 <janina> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/193
18:15:23 <janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Jan/0070.html
18:15:25 <janina> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/outlinenone
18:15:27 <janina> Filed
18:15:29 <janina> Issue-194 Media Full Transcript
18:15:32 <janina> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/Issue194
18:15:34 <janina> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/194
18:15:35 <janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Jan/0073.html
18:15:37 <janina>  
18:15:39 <janina> 16 February
18:15:41 <janina> Issue-199 ARIA Attributes Processing
18:15:43 <janina> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/199
18:15:46 <janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Jan/0078.html
18:15:47 <janina> Filed
18:15:50 <janina> Issue-201 Canvas Fallback -- Frank
18:15:51 <janina> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/201
18:15:53 <janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Feb/0121.html
18:15:56 <janina> 16 February
18:15:57 <janina> Issue-202 Fig-Caption Word Count -- Judy
18:15:59 <janina> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/202
18:16:02 <janina> 18 February
18:16:03 <janina> Issue-203 Media Element Text Description -- John
18:16:05 <janina> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/203
18:16:07 <janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Feb/0084.html
18:16:30 <Judy> jb: ok, reviewing all of the text ones now....
18:18:31 <Judy> Issues of relevance to the text sub-group: 31; 80; 192; 202; 203.
18:18:54 <Judy> jb: And so, of those text-related ones, short status:
18:21:13 <Judy> issue 31 (loc of alt guidance, incorrect alt, meta name generator): 
18:24:35 <Zakim> -Janina_Sajka
18:24:51 <Zakim> +??P1
18:25:10 <janina> zakim, ??P1 is Janina_Sajka
18:25:10 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
18:26:14 <janina> Filed
18:26:14 <janina> Issue-31 Inappropriate Alt in HTML Spec -- Steve
18:26:14 <janina> Issue-31 Location of Alt Authoring Guidance Reconsideration -- Steve
18:26:14 <janina> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/movealt
18:26:14 <janina> Filed
18:26:16 <janina> Issue-31 Meta Generator Reconsideration Request
18:26:17 <janina> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name%3Dgenerator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming -- Steve
18:26:20 <janina> Accepted
18:26:22 <janina> Issue-80 Title Reconsideration Request -- Steve
18:26:24 <janina> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitlev2
18:26:26 <janina> Filed -- But is this also 80 above?
18:26:28 <janina> Issue-192 Title -- Steve
18:26:31 <janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Jan/0076.html
18:26:33 <janina> 16 February
18:26:34 <janina> Issue-202 Fig-Caption Word Count -- Judy
18:26:36 <janina> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/202
18:26:38 <janina> 18 February
18:26:40 <janina> Issue-203 Media Element Text Description -- John
18:26:42 <janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Feb/0084.html
18:28:06 <Judy> 31: inappropriate alt is filed WITH location of alt guidance
18:28:27 <Judy> we need to recommend this CP up to the TF for retro support
18:29:02 <Judy> JS: there is a fundamental underlying issue that is still confused in the WG and that we could still address more directly
18:31:34 <Judy> JB: what's that specific issue?
18:31:57 <Judy> JS: concerns about WG decision policy
18:32:28 <Judy> JB: we are still providing info into the decision process
18:37:33 <Judy> ...and we now have the CP re-raising our concern on that.
18:38:58 <Judy> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/movealt
18:40:16 <Judy> Based on current status of this CP, we will move it into TF discuss for their approval as a TF-supported CP even though it was already filed by the deadline anyway.
18:40:30 <Judy> JS: Done. (I'm chairing this week.)
18:43:22 <Judy> JB: the third part of 31 is meta-name generator, which we gave the chairs recently; if no response from chairs by March 9, we'll re-ping them.
18:43:58 <Judy> JS: putting in tickler.
18:48:34 <Judy> JB: 80; title; they re-opened it; next step is on the Chairs to call for CP's; if no Call for CP's by March 9? or earlier? from chairs, re-ping
18:49:26 <Judy> 192 -- also called title, same CP seems to apply, 
18:49:41 <Judy> Janina will check w/ Steve & disambiguate as needed.
18:50:03 <Judy> 202: status on fig-caption
18:50:33 <Judy> JB: still on her & thanks the skeleton.
18:52:10 <Judy> 203: this is the media element text description, e.g. alt and longdesc on media elements
18:52:26 <Judy> s/thanks the/thanks for the/
18:53:13 <Judy> JS: recc'd to the chairs that this be deferred till longdesc decided, but file conditionally in the meantime
18:53:35 <Judy> JS: sent a message to the list to that effect, but no reply yet.
18:53:56 <Judy> JB: re-send it and ask again for a response?
18:54:13 <Judy> JS: may need some writing from JohnF
18:54:26 <Judy> JS: I'll follow up w/ John
18:54:31 <Judy> agenda?
18:54:40 <Judy> JS: and I'll put on the agenda Thurs
18:55:09 <Judy> 30: Longdesc
18:55:47 <Judy> JS: this morning the Chairs opened a new issue, how aria-hidden should be handled.
18:56:18 <Judy> JS: note that this is exactly the opposite of what the ARIA TF proposes. 
19:03:07 <Judy> JB: one concern is that none of the discussion leading up to this was copied to html-a11y; re-raise the procedural concern; cross-copy the thread starter for reference.
19:04:23 <Judy> JS: second concern is that neither the chairs nor the WG have demonstrated the existing longdesc mechanism is inadequate.
19:05:52 <Judy> JB: raise this as a procedural concern? and also request evidence that the existing mechanism is anadequate?
19:07:36 <Judy> JS: yes; and third concern has to do with the approach of their new issue #204
19:07:52 <Judy> s/anadequate/inadequate/
19:08:27 <janina>  Here's Sam's email opening Issue-204:
19:08:28 <janina> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Feb/0199.html
19:11:05 <Judy> s/demonstrated the/demonstrated that the/
19:19:17 <Judy> note Laura's withdrawing of support for polling on 204 ahead of issue 30: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Feb/0109.html
19:23:43 <Judy> (looking at the record) 
19:25:25 <Judy> note Janina's statement that using ARIA described-by in this way will not work; and further that it shows a failing to understand one of the key user requirement for long text descriptions.
19:26:11 <Judy> JB: and it yet further extends again the time for resolving issue 30, as Laura has pointed out clearly.
19:30:50 <Judy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Feb/0109.html
19:33:04 <Judy> ...and here is your statement noting that re-defining ARIA behavior for described-by is unlikely to work (actually, it jeopardizes other things that ARIA described-by is intended to do); 
19:35:16 <Judy> JS: ...and furthermore, that if they wish to suggest changed behavior for ARIA, that should be taken up directly with PFWG -- for instance on the xtech mailing list, or on the Joint HTML A11Y TF mailing list -- rather than as an HTML WG-only issue. 
19:42:41 <Judy> JS: So despite the inadequate coordination, there is now a new call for proposals on a new issue, raising questions regarding core defined behavior in ARIA, with a two-week deadline, just as we are heading into the busiest conference season of the year.
19:44:46 <Judy> JS: and this would be significant extra effort, despite the HTML Chairs & WG not having demonstrated (as i said above) that the existing mechanism, longdesc, does not adequately address the needs on the table.
19:45:57 <Judy> JS: so it seems that the Chairs should first withdraw 204, and then move forward on 30, and only then come back to 204 on an as-needed basis.
19:46:42 <Judy> JB: and we need an updated coordination meeting w/ Chairs.
19:47:07 <Judy> zakim, close this item
19:47:07 <Zakim> agendum 1 closed
19:47:08 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:47:08 <Zakim> 2. note extensive discussion only on HTML WG list on longdesc; discuss and assign actions as needed [from janina]
19:47:16 <Judy> agenda?
19:47:44 <Judy> zakim, close item 2
19:47:44 <Zakim> agendum 2, note extensive discussion only on HTML WG list on longdesc; discuss and assign actions as needed, closed
19:47:46 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:47:46 <Zakim> 3. discuss CP for WG location of alt guidance, and recommend for TF support as appropriate http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/movealt [from janina]
19:47:59 <Judy> zakim, take up item 3
19:47:59 <Zakim> agendum 3. "discuss CP for WG location of alt guidance, and recommend for TF support as appropriate http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/movealt" taken up [from janina]
19:48:19 <Judy> JB: as above, we recommended this up to TF for their consideration for support
19:48:44 <Judy> zakim, take up item 4 
19:48:44 <Zakim> agendum 4. "discuss CP for figcaption" taken up [from janina]
19:49:31 <Judy> JB: still attempting text
19:49:53 <Judy> zakim, take up item 5
19:49:53 <Zakim> agendum 5. "confirm status up to date at http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Accessibility_Change_Proposal_Status" taken up [from janina]
19:50:32 <Judy> JS: perhaps Laura can help us update the TF wiki according to the updated status text CPs above in the minutes
19:51:18 <Judy> zakim, take up item 6
19:51:18 <Zakim> agendum 6. "note any procedural issues needing clarification" taken up [from janina]
19:51:35 <Judy> JB: lots, as per minutes above
19:51:51 <Judy> s/lots, //
19:52:25 <Judy> zakim, take up item 7
19:52:25 <Zakim> agendum 7. "confirm next meeting; identify next scribe; adjourn" taken up [from janina]
19:53:05 <Judy> NEXT MEETING IS NEXT TUESDAY FEBRUARY 21, 1:00PM EST
19:53:46 <Judy> NEXT SCRIBE: (not me!!! -- jb) -- Janina or another volunteer.... 
19:53:51 <Judy> adjourn!
19:54:07 <Judy> rrsagent, make logs world
19:54:16 <Judy> rrsagent, make minutes
19:54:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/14-text-minutes.html Judy
19:54:49 <Judy> present: Janina_Sajka, Judy_Brewer
19:55:35 <Judy> regrets: Laura_Carlson, John_Foliot, Michael_Cooper, Steve_Faulkner
19:55:54 <Judy> scribe: judy
19:56:01 <Judy> rrsagent, make minutes
19:56:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/14-text-minutes.html Judy
20:05:19 <Zakim> -Judy
20:05:24 <Zakim> -Janina_Sajka
20:05:26 <Zakim> Team_(text)17:55Z has ended
20:05:26 <Zakim> Attendees were Janina_Sajka, Judy
20:10:24 <janina> janina has left #text
21:12:07 <Judy> Judy has joined #text