IRC log of prov on 2012-02-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:42:12 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
15:42:14 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:42:14 [Zakim]
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15:42:16 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
15:42:16 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:42:17 [trackbot]
Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
15:42:17 [trackbot]
Date: 09 February 2012
15:42:18 [Luc]
Zakim, this will be PROV
15:42:18 [Zakim]
ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 18 minutes
15:42:31 [Luc]
15:42:34 [Luc]
Chair: Luc Moreau
15:42:47 [Luc]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:42:51 [Luc]
zakim, who is here?
15:42:51 [Zakim]
SW_(PROV)11:00AM has not yet started, Luc
15:42:51 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, Stian, trackbot, sandro
15:54:21 [Luc]
15:55:24 [Luc]
15:57:45 [Curt]
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15:58:17 [Zakim]
SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
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15:59:17 [Zakim]
+ +44.238.059.aaaa
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15:59:35 [Luc]
zakim, +44.238.059.aaaa is me
15:59:44 [Zakim]
+Luc; got it
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+ +1.315.330.aabb
16:00:28 [Zakim]
16:00:30 [Zakim]
16:00:32 [smiles]
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16:00:32 [tlebo]
zakim, I am aabb
16:00:34 [Luc]
Hi, we still need a scribe ....
16:00:39 [tlebo]
I'll scribe
16:00:40 [Zakim]
+ +1.646.389.aacc
16:00:48 [Luc]
thanks tim, everything is setup for you
16:00:51 [davidschaengold]
Zakim, aacc is me
16:00:55 [tlebo]
yup, thanks.
16:00:56 [Luc]
scribe: Tim Lebo
16:01:00 [Zakim]
+tlebo; got it
16:01:18 [Zakim]
+davidschaengold; got it
16:01:21 [christine]
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+ +1.509.967.aadd
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16:03:15 [khalidbelhajjame]
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16:03:27 [jcheney]
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16:03:46 [tlebo]
topic: approve minutes
16:03:59 [tlebo]
luc: paul hasn't finished the long minutes, we'll do next week.
16:04:02 [Luc]
16:04:03 [tlebo]
topic: actions
16:04:30 [tlebo]
action 51
16:04:30 [trackbot]
Sorry, bad ACTION syntax
16:04:32 [Luc]
16:04:53 [tlebo]
luc finished the blog on action 51; closed.
16:05:03 [Zakim]
16:05:13 [Zakim]
16:05:16 [tlebo]
action 52 on satya - continue DM issues.
16:05:16 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - 52
16:05:17 [Zakim]
16:05:41 [tlebo]
satya: can be folded into the due date next thursday.
16:05:44 [MacTed]
16:05:44 [trackbot]
ACTION-52 -- Satya Sahoo to address issues in -- due 2012-01-19 -- OPEN
16:05:44 [trackbot]
16:05:51 [Zakim]
16:06:00 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:06:02 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
16:06:23 [tlebo]
luc: luc and paolo have asked questions that satya has not answered. please respond.
16:06:44 [tlebo]
luc: we will be trying to close actions much faster.
16:06:50 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
16:06:52 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
16:07:12 [tlebo]
satya: today or tomorrow will respond
16:07:16 [Luc]
16:07:19 [jcheney]
zakim, ??P77 is me
16:07:28 [tlebo]
action 53 to Kai - bootstrapping dc best practices.
16:07:28 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - 53
16:07:39 [Zakim]
+jcheney; got it
16:08:31 [tlebo]
daniel: kai has been working on it, has been getting good responses from other users groups. they seem happy.
16:08:50 [tlebo]
luc: will the activity be seen by prov-wg?
16:09:00 [Zakim]
16:09:06 [Zakim]
16:09:07 [tlebo]
daniel: mostly on the dc side, kai will come back and report.
16:09:18 [tlebo]
daniel: eric is hosting a call next monday
16:09:33 [tlebo]
daniel is on dc call
16:09:35 [YolandaGil]
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16:09:42 [tlebo]
luc: how to monitor progress?
16:09:58 [tlebo]
daniel: still getting started.
16:10:20 [tlebo]
luc: action is completed because activity is bootstrapped. please report back regularlly.
16:10:33 [Luc]
16:11:10 [Luc]
16:11:11 [MacTed]
16:11:11 [trackbot]
ACTION-54 -- Paul Groth to engage implementation task force to begin developing of a test harness around examples (from tim or others) -- due 2012-02-10 -- OPEN
16:11:11 [trackbot]
16:11:17 [tlebo]
next action is #54 on paolo. Engaging implemenation task force for a test harness
16:11:32 [tlebo]
luc: helena or stephen?
16:11:47 [Zakim]
16:11:52 [tlebo]
16:12:03 [Luc]
16:12:04 [Helena]
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16:12:26 [tlebo]
next action was #55 on mike. make an owl file for next week.
16:12:31 [dgarijo]
16:12:58 [Luc]
ack dg
16:13:10 [tlebo]
daniel: khalid and daniel have made a list of terms to agree on and give rules for. (and a list of those we won't)
16:13:24 [tlebo]
( )
16:13:25 [satya]
16:13:49 [tlebo]
luc: timing - next telecon due. on track to meet?
16:13:52 [Zakim]
16:13:52 [tlebo]
daniel: yes
16:13:57 [tlebo]
16:14:00 [Luc]
16:14:16 [tlebo]
next is action 56 to james update rdf rules and align with dm.
16:14:47 [tlebo]
jcheney: coupled with previous issue. using ProvRDF to keep track of DM and ont.
16:15:02 [dgarijo]
I forgot to say that Tim also worked on the list initiated by James.
16:15:17 [tlebo]
jcheney: daniel, khalid, satya, tim have been working around the doc.
16:15:25 [stephenc]
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16:15:30 [tlebo]
jcheney: planning to fill in early next week
16:15:35 [tlebo]
16:16:05 [dgarijo]
tlebo: clarification about the rules James is talking about.
16:16:23 [dgarijo]
jcheney: the rules in the provRDF file.
16:16:31 [khalidbelhajjame]
Translation rules
16:17:02 [Luc]
16:17:04 [dgarijo]
tlebo: the plan is to have completed the left side part of the list
16:17:05 [tlebo]
(anyone is welcome to help me fill in the left-hand sides from DM - this needs to be done by Friday)
16:17:30 [tlebo]
luc: paq, paul, graham. #57 due end of month. we'll leave it
16:17:31 [Luc]
16:17:37 [Luc]
16:17:56 [dgarijo]
@tlebo: I though that that was what Khalid and I did with the lists :)
16:17:58 [tlebo]
luc: action 58 to paul. he wrote summary of f2f.
16:18:07 [Luc]
16:18:09 [tlebo]
@daniel, nope, as I said in email.
16:18:23 [GK_]
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16:18:23 [tlebo]
luc: closing 58
16:18:37 [GK_]
Oops, sorry I'm late. Connecting now.
16:19:01 [Luc]
16:19:41 [tlebo]
luc: 60 on luc, xml schema. he sent email to list. some responses. james' approach similar?
16:19:47 [dgarijo]
@tlebo: ok.
16:19:51 [tlebo]
jcheney: was using attributes, but can change to elemetns.
16:20:02 [tlebo]
luc: stephen, tim is interested
16:20:07 [Zakim]
16:20:07 [tlebo]
16:20:11 [Zakim]
16:20:13 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:20:13 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
16:20:15 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
16:20:15 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
16:20:29 [GK_]
zakim, ??p0 is me
16:20:29 [Zakim]
+GK_; got it
16:20:55 [tlebo]
tim: will look through it, not sure what he'll do with it.
16:21:11 [tlebo]
luc: aim for an agreement in two weeks time?
16:21:28 [satya]
tlebo: yes
16:21:42 [Luc]
16:21:55 [tlebo]
luc: 61 on james update semantics to suit DM WD3
16:22:27 [tlebo]
jcheney: provrdf an mappings are part of it and due ealier. so focusing on that.
16:22:30 [Luc]
16:22:45 [tlebo]
luc: 62 on luc to simplify intro do DM
16:22:55 [tlebo]
luc: will report later in agenda.
16:23:17 [Luc]
16:23:23 [tlebo]
16:23:49 [zednik]
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16:24:22 [tlebo]
luc: next face to face... coordinate with semweb activity.... mroe next week.
16:24:38 [Luc]
16:24:42 [tlebo]
luc: other issues?
16:24:56 [Zakim]
16:25:01 [Luc]
can we see this list of term?
16:25:10 [tlebo]
satya: reviewing wd3, have terms to map, nothing else to report. Mike finished blog post.
16:25:20 [tlebo]
satya: simple exmaple of how to use prov-o. sent update yesterday
16:25:21 [Luc]
can we see the blog post example?
16:25:26 [tlebo]
(I didn't see update)
16:25:42 [tlebo]
16:25:51 [tlebo]
satya: blog post coming outt
16:26:01 [dgarijo]
16:26:03 [tlebo]
16:26:10 [Zakim]
16:26:18 [Luc]
16:26:35 [tlebo]
q+ to note that I think a different format would be better, will try to address on email and skype.
16:26:36 [dgarijo]
although that list has to be merged with Khalid's
16:26:41 [tlebo]
luc: wasAssociatedWith - why not?
16:26:50 [tlebo]
luc: quite important.
16:27:14 [Luc]
16:27:17 [Luc]
ack tle
16:27:17 [Zakim]
tlebo, you wanted to note that I think a different format would be better, will try to address on email and skype.
16:28:05 [tlebo]
16:28:26 [tlebo]
luc: good to see that we can be systematic in translation.
16:28:35 [tlebo]
luc: issues in DM?
16:29:27 [Zakim]
16:29:39 [satya]
@GK: yes, it is a discussion board
16:29:50 [Mike]
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16:30:09 [tlebo]
luc: would be good for dm and provo teams to discuss
16:30:16 [Zakim]
+ +1.443.708.aaee
16:30:27 [tlebo]
tlebo: we can do that after the owl file and mapping page
16:30:33 [tlebo]
luc: we need the HTML, too.
16:30:47 [Luc]
16:30:53 [jcheney]
@GK: Tim's point I think is that the wiki page should be DM-centric in order to aid producing the deliverable(s)
16:30:54 [tlebo]
luc: we need a doc that semweb community will look at after the primer.
16:31:20 [khalidbelhajjame]
We also need to thing about the structure of the document
16:31:23 [khalidbelhajjame]
16:31:32 [tlebo]
satya: having concensus on owl file will aid HTML writing.
16:31:45 [tlebo]
luc: but thought on how to structure doc before hand.
16:31:56 [tlebo]
(I think we agreed to get rid of this laundry list approach in the HTML)
16:32:09 [dgarijo]
@khalid : +1.
16:32:47 [tlebo]
luc: ivan's feedback after f2f. many ontologies that were well presented. OPMV, FOAF, (not enough examples in foaf html)
16:33:02 [tlebo]
luc: good to think about how the HTML will be structured.
16:33:05 [Luc]
16:33:32 [GK_]
(I've an idea that some of the FOAF/OPMV content is auto-generated from the OWN description)
16:33:45 [tlebo]
luc: DMers shouldn't impose the provo html structure.
16:34:09 [tlebo]
luc: action on structure of provo doc?
16:34:28 [tlebo]
satya: will take action on structure of prov-o html
16:34:53 [tlebo]
action: satya to design structure of provo-html
16:34:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-63 - Design structure of provo-html [on Satya Sahoo - due 2012-02-16].
16:35:01 [Luc]
action to satya to outline the new structure of the prov-o document, to be discussed on 23
16:35:01 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - to
16:35:29 [tlebo]
luc: ivan suggested that it is usful to line up reviewers of the draft.
16:35:30 [GK_]
@luc: that action got created with 16-feb due date, not 23rd
16:35:46 [tlebo]
luc: need reviewers to provo html
16:35:51 [tlebo]
luc: volunteers?
16:36:00 [Luc]
16:36:12 [estephan]
I will review
16:36:18 [tlebo]
satya: think it would be helpful to have DMers review, too.
16:36:36 [tlebo]
luc: volunteers?
16:36:56 [tlebo]
luc: zednick?
16:36:58 [GK_]
(I probably shall review it, but I'm reluctant to make formal commitment at this time, until it's actually available.)
16:37:13 [tlebo]
@etephan said he would, too
16:37:21 [tlebo]
luc: simon?
16:37:34 [zednik]
I am willing to review prov-o
16:37:36 [satya]
perhaps both Simon and Yolanda?
16:37:38 [estephan]
16:37:44 [tlebo]
smiles: sure, from pov of primer
16:38:17 [zednik]
too many stephans ;-)
16:38:23 [tlebo]
(too many "steph*n"s)
16:39:08 [davidschaengold]
I'll volunteer as well to review it
16:39:21 [satya]
@Stephan: you are co-author :)
16:39:35 [estephan]
16:39:50 [GK_]
(What I'd like to do is review the ontology side-by-side with the *simplified* DM)
16:39:51 [tlebo]
core dump
16:39:59 [Luc]
ack es
16:40:11 [tlebo]
luc, paolo, eric stephen, cresswell, perhaps GK
16:40:31 [tlebo]
estephan: hwo to give feedback?
16:41:07 [tlebo]
luc: we need to know someone looked at it.
16:41:18 [satya]
@Eric: raise issues?
16:41:21 [Luc]
16:41:38 [tlebo]
topic: dm
16:41:57 [Luc]
16:42:12 [tlebo]
luc: wiki page on current activities
16:42:20 [tlebo]
luc: trying to adderss action 62 - simplify
16:42:41 [tlebo]
luc: created new directory in hg
16:42:53 [Luc]
16:43:04 [tlebo]
luc: welcome to look, but still in progress.
16:43:11 [tlebo]
luc: decided to structure into 3 parts
16:43:45 [tlebo]
luc: part 1: model based on no "Thing"
16:44:07 [tlebo]
luc: part 1: support scruffy prov (so no attributes, charact intervals, constraints)
16:44:11 [tlebo]
luc: all moved out of doc
16:44:20 [tlebo]
luc: dropped Account Record.
16:44:27 [GK_]
q+ to ask if the first part will be anything more than a summary of the ASN expression types
16:44:42 [Luc]
16:44:51 [tlebo]
luc: part 3: ASN and grammar
16:45:06 [tlebo]
luc: part 2: "upgrade path"
16:45:15 [tlebo]
(from scruffy to proper prov)
16:45:32 [GK_]
Would prefer to see it described as a "refinement path" rather than "upgrade"
16:45:36 [Luc]
16:45:38 [tlebo]
luc: first version of this draft by next telecon
16:46:11 [dgarijo]
yesterday on the DC call, Thom Baker said that he really liked the distinction between scruffy/proper provenance.
16:46:14 [tlebo]
gk: part 1 any mor than summary of expression types?
16:46:20 [tlebo]
gk: want it that simple.
16:46:20 [Luc]
16:46:34 [Luc]
16:47:03 [tlebo]
luc: tried to provide intuitive def for all concepts with examples in english
16:47:43 [Luc]
16:47:44 [tlebo]
luc: list of terms an dtheir componetns with illustration
16:47:49 [Luc]
ack GK
16:47:49 [Zakim]
GK_, you wanted to ask if the first part will be anything more than a summary of the ASN expression types
16:48:15 [tlebo]
gk: looks closer to waht group was asked to do.
16:48:45 [tlebo]
luc: happy with anyone to look at and comment on (do not raise issues)
16:49:06 [tlebo]
luc: if have commetns, write notes on page and send email notifying
16:49:30 [Luc]
16:49:40 [tlebo]
luc: comments?
16:49:46 [MacTed]
Zakim, unmute me
16:49:46 [Zakim]
MacTed should no longer be muted
16:49:46 [GK_]
I'll probably hold off detailed review untilk that 1st draft is available for co9mment
16:50:03 [tlebo]
macted: which URLs are which part of breakout
16:50:14 [Luc]
part 1:
16:50:26 [Luc]
part 3:
16:50:52 [tlebo]
luc: will add link to wiki page
16:50:58 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
16:50:58 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
16:51:07 [tlebo]
luc: would like reviewers of docs for next week
16:51:23 [Luc]
16:51:23 [tlebo]
16:51:25 [estephan]
+1 (Eric Stephan)
16:51:27 [GK_]
I intend to review
16:51:44 [dgarijo]
I'll try too
16:51:55 [Curt]
I'll try
16:52:33 [tlebo]
topic: coordinate dm and prov-o
16:52:54 [tlebo]
reading list: primer, prov-o, dm
16:53:09 [tlebo]
luc: comments on joint release
16:53:10 [tlebo]
16:53:16 [Luc]
16:53:17 [smiles]
16:53:40 [Luc]
ack smiles
16:53:59 [tlebo]
smiles: from f2f, we have a schedule. prov-o owl next week and html week after.
16:54:05 [tlebo]
... primer 8 march.
16:54:27 [tlebo]
... then 1-2 weeks from that (20 march)
16:54:36 [tlebo]
luc: we've slipped by 1 month
16:54:57 [tlebo]
luc: timetable discussed at f2f
16:55:06 [tlebo]
... 4th draft 1 march
16:55:13 [tlebo]
... 5th draft 1 apri.l
16:55:30 [tlebo]
... release of all 1 april?
16:55:55 [tlebo]
... concerned.
16:56:00 [Luc]
16:56:00 [tlebo]
... all docs earlier?
16:57:02 [tlebo]
satya: last feb first march
16:57:05 [GK_]
I personally think we need to get the simplified DM nailed and stabilized (in broad principle) before charging too fast with the other docs.
16:57:14 [tlebo]
(I think first week march would be reasonable)
16:57:23 [Zakim]
16:57:33 [satya]
@GK: I agree
16:58:01 [Luc]
16:58:12 [tlebo]
simon: if we agree on the owl, primer by end of feb. but what if there are concerns on the owl?
16:58:30 [dgarijo]
I don't think that the primer is going to change a lot..
16:58:48 [tlebo]
gk_: really helpful if broad DM stable before pushing on other docs.
16:59:24 [smiles]
@dgarijo yes, I hope you're right :)
16:59:33 [tlebo]
luc: provo due fairly soon
16:59:47 [tlebo]
satya: agree that we need DM stable.
17:00:10 [tlebo]
q+ to point out that the concepts aren't changing in DM. so it's "stable"
17:00:41 [smiles]
Apologies, but I will have to leave in a minute...
17:01:01 [tlebo]
luc: we need to close issues.
17:01:11 [GK_]
I'm fine that there may be outstanding issues (near term); but the DM sets a general direction that we're all trying to follow
17:01:22 [Luc]
ack tle
17:01:22 [Zakim]
tlebo, you wanted to point out that the concepts aren't changing in DM. so it's "stable"
17:01:53 [Luc]
17:01:57 [dgarijo]
17:02:13 [Zakim]
17:02:18 [tlebo]
topic: connection task force
17:02:38 [tlebo]
estephan: kai did report on plans from f2f2. dc mapping. great effort.
17:02:50 [khalidbelhajjame]
Sorry, I will have to leave as I have another meeting
17:02:53 [tlebo]
... while that continues, we should meet as a task force periodically.
17:03:03 [YolandaGil]
Simon: there were a few minor things we wanted to update on the planner, we can discuss them when we meet at the end of the month.
17:03:11 [tlebo]
... most on task force have connections and would be good to keep the report alive.
17:03:15 [Zakim]
17:03:35 [Luc]
17:03:45 [estephan]
17:03:57 [Luc]
ack e
17:04:14 [tlebo]
estephan: monday call details on email
17:04:20 [YolandaGil]
I'll be joining the conn TF call
17:04:23 [tlebo]
luc: that's it. meet next week.
17:04:24 [Zakim]
17:04:25 [Zakim]
17:04:26 [Zakim]
17:04:27 [GK_]
17:04:27 [Zakim]
- +1.443.708.aaee
17:04:27 [Zakim]
- +1.509.967.aadd
17:04:27 [Zakim]
17:04:29 [Zakim]
17:04:29 [Zakim]
17:04:31 [Zakim]
17:04:33 [estephan]
estephan has left #prov
17:04:33 [Zakim]
17:04:35 [Zakim]
17:04:39 [Zakim]
17:04:51 [Luc]
rrsagent, set log public
17:04:53 [Zakim]
17:04:55 [Luc]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:04:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Luc
17:04:59 [Luc]
trackbot, end telcon
17:04:59 [trackbot]
Sorry, Luc, I don't understand 'trackbot, end telcon '. Please refer to for help
17:05:00 [Zakim]
17:05:16 [Zakim]
17:05:18 [Zakim]
SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended
17:05:18 [Zakim]
Attendees were Curt_Tilmes, Luc, +1.315.330.aabb, Satya_Sahoo, [IPcaller], +1.646.389.aacc, tlebo, davidschaengold, +1.509.967.aadd, MacTed, jcheney, [ISI], Sandro, GK_,
17:05:18 [Zakim]
... +1.443.708.aaee