IRC log of tagmem on 2012-01-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to
17:57:14 [plinss]
zakim, this will be tag
17:57:14 [Zakim]
ok, plinss, I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM already started
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18:02:21 [ht]
zakim, [ is me
18:02:21 [Zakim]
+ht; got it
18:02:35 [Zakim]
18:02:55 [noah]
zakim, noah_mendelsohn is me
18:02:55 [Zakim]
+noah; got it
18:03:05 [Zakim]
18:03:24 [JeniT]
Zakim, +JeniT is ht
18:03:27 [Zakim]
sorry, JeniT, I do not recognize a party named '+JeniT'
18:03:41 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
18:03:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see plinss, Ashok_Malhotra, Jonathan_Rees, ht, noah
18:03:42 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Ashok, JeniT, ht, RRSAgent, Zakim, noah, trackbot, jar, timbl, Norm, plinss, Yves
18:04:06 [Zakim]
18:06:09 [Zakim]
18:06:31 [Yves]
Scribe: Yves
18:06:44 [Yves]
trackbot, start telcon
18:06:46 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
18:06:48 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be TAG
18:06:48 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM already started
18:06:49 [trackbot]
Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference
18:06:49 [trackbot]
Date: 26 January 2012
18:07:28 [Yves]
Jeni to scribe next week, if Larry not present
18:07:55 [Yves]
Regrets: DKA, Larry, Robin
18:08:26 [Yves]
for next week, regrets from Ashok
18:08:43 [Yves]
s/Ashok/Ashok and Peter/
18:09:07 [Yves]
approval of minutes:
18:09:10 [jar]
Amy said Tim regrets for today too
18:09:32 [Yves]
Regrets+ TimBL
18:10:03 [noah]
RESOLUTION: Minutes of 4-6 January 2012 F2F are approved
18:10:09 [noah]
Agreed without objection
18:12:42 [Yves]
Yves to create a local arrangements page the next f2f meeting
18:13:57 [Yves]
Noah: I will probably miss the IETF meeting prior TAG f2f
18:15:04 [Yves]
ht: the point was for us to learn about IETF more thanbeing sure TAG is represented
18:15:17 [Yves]
s/thanbeing/than being/
18:15:31 [Yves]
approval of january 19th minutes postponed
18:16:09 [Yves]
18:17:45 [Yves]
Topic: ISSUE-50 (URNsAndRegistries-50): Persistent references
18:17:55 [Yves]
18:18:16 [noah]
18:19:17 [Yves]
ht: there are high level goals, despite focusing mainly on http uris (but not only). What is lacks crucially is next steps
18:19:48 [Yves]
the only pending thing was the workshop report, which is linked now and was circulated widely.
18:20:11 [Yves]
Key deliverables and schedules are empty as we are missing next steps
18:20:20 [noah]
HT: Not sure what to do next. That's why schedules and deliverables are empty. I understand you all can't commit until that's filled in.
18:20:51 [Yves]
jar: if we had a clear view of who would be the customers, it would help
18:21:22 [noah]
jar: maybe a community group?
18:21:47 [Yves]
ht: community group are about what W3C can do.
18:21:57 [noah]
I'm curious: what do we want the TAG to achieve here?
18:22:06 [Yves]
not sure what we want out of this is a REC track doc
18:23:28 [noah]
I've tried to push us to have goals and success critera that aren't document; documents should be deliverables in support of some goal
18:23:55 [Yves]
Yves: CGs are not only to do pre-REC track work, it can be there to clarify things on a topic
18:25:39 [Yves]
Noah: how about saying that our work is done, we helped.
18:26:15 [Yves]
ht: we need to do something, as if things break here, we wouldn't have done our job
18:26:36 [noah]
HT: Success would be coming into existence of a mechanism for creating persistent domains
18:26:50 [noah]
ack next
18:27:13 [DKA]
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18:27:31 [Yves]
jar: we are not empowered or able to achieve this kind of success. We can produce document, recipes to get persistent domain names, but other will have to implement
18:27:54 [noah]
I note that we pretty much aren't empowered to do anything. I still think it sometimes make sense to point out that success can be defined at more than one level. Sometimes, I think it's OK to set success criteria even when the means of achieve that success is not entirely within our control
18:28:38 [Yves]
real success would be creation of such domains, but it's not something we can achieve
18:29:18 [Zakim]
18:29:29 [jar]
noah says 2 goals: #1 persistent domains, #2 publishing a recipe for causing persistent domains to come about
18:29:45 [DKA]
18:29:49 [DKA]
On train
18:30:05 [DKA]
18:30:08 [DKA]
Will do.
18:31:45 [noah]
I thought I said two goals: 1) real success is causing the community to converge on a practical means of maintaining persistent domains -- that's a goal we can't achieve by ourselves in support of which 2) publish a document, a goal we can definitely achieve
18:32:05 [noah]
18:32:05 [trackbot]
ACTION-528 -- Henry Thompson to create and get consensus on a product page and tracker product page for persistence of names -- due 2012-01-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:32:05 [trackbot]
18:32:11 [noah]
18:32:11 [trackbot]
ACTION-653 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule telcon discussion of Persistence product page (which was drafted for but not reviewed at F2F -- due 2012-01-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:32:11 [trackbot]
18:33:22 [Yves]
Noah: is the question "are there people lining up to create that CG" or "are there people to produce work in that CG" ?
18:33:40 [jar]
what's involved in organizing a CG?… I guess I can look that up on the w3c site
18:33:41 [Yves]
ht: both, first work would be to get people engaged
18:33:59 [noah]
18:34:05 [noah]
Draft of product plan was discussed 4-6 January 2012 TAG F2F: this version was proposed by Henry Thompons, but more discussion is needed to agree on the plan.
18:34:08 [JeniT]
jar, you need to propose it and a some minimum number of people need to express interest
18:34:51 [noah]
18:35:19 [Zakim]
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18:35:47 [noah]
close ACTION-528
18:35:47 [trackbot]
ACTION-528 Create and get consensus on a product page and tracker product page for persistence of names closed
18:36:14 [noah]
. ACTION: Henry to update to reflect agreement on 26 January telcon regarding settling at F2F
18:36:25 [noah]
ACTION: Henry to update to reflect agreement on 26 January telcon regarding settling at F2F
18:36:26 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-666 - Update to reflect agreement on 26 January telcon regarding settling at F2F [on Henry Thompson - due 2012-02-02].
18:36:30 [noah]
18:36:30 [trackbot]
ACTION-653 -- Noah Mendelsohn to schedule telcon discussion of Persistence product page (which was drafted for but not reviewed at F2F -- due 2012-01-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:36:30 [trackbot]
18:36:36 [noah]
close ACTION-653
18:36:36 [trackbot]
ACTION-653 Schedule telcon discussion of Persistence product page (which was drafted for but not reviewed at F2F closed
18:37:25 [noah]
ISSUE-58 (namespaceDocument-8): XML Schema Namespace Document
18:37:28 [Yves]
Topic: ISSUE-58 (namespaceDocument-8): XML Schema Namespace Document
18:37:32 [noah]
18:37:32 [trackbot]
ACTION-23 -- Henry Thompson to track progress of #int bug 1974 in the XML Schema namespace document in the XML Schema WG -- due 2012-01-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:37:32 [trackbot]
18:38:11 [Yves]
ht: the schema datatype spec has a small section about namespace usage
18:38:42 [Yves]
issue is that the ns document is missing an anchor
18:38:45 [noah]
HT: For XSD datatypes, it suggests that to talk about e.g. any uri, you use XMLSchemaNamespace#anyURI. Problem is, you can get a namespace document, and it has no such anchor.
18:38:53 [noah]
HT: I filed a bug a very long time ago
18:38:54 [Yves]
bug was filed
18:39:32 [Yves]
the bug is still open, while schema language is updating its version
18:39:41 [jar]
are we talking about ?
18:39:51 [JeniT]
yes, I believe so
18:40:05 [jar]
isn't the same true of the XHTML ns doc?
18:40:23 [Yves]
18:40:24 [jar]
oh no it's not.
18:40:48 [Yves]
ht: I notified the chair and it will be going forward
18:40:51 [Ashok]
18:40:52 [noah]
The rec is at: which defines namespaces and (the latter being rarely used, I think)
18:40:58 [jar]
xhtml doesn't specify use of #-concatenated URIs, xml schema does (IIUC)
18:40:59 [ht]
So, e.g.
18:41:51 [Yves]
Jeni: do you need to do conneg to be able to resolve the fragment?
18:42:47 [Yves]
ht: if you ask for application/xml first you'll get the xml schema, not the html
18:42:55 [jar]
it would be easy enough to kludge up some RDFa
18:43:16 [Yves]
Jeni: if you have anchor in the HTML, it will mean something you may not mean
18:43:41 [Yves]
Jeni: what does mean?
18:44:02 [noah]
FYI, contains:
18:44:05 [noah]
<simpleType name="anyURI"><restriction base="anyURI"/></simpleType>
18:44:42 [noah]
ack next
18:44:54 [jar]
I also think it is meant to refer to the datatype, not to an HTML element… but maybe not clear... this is a good exercise to force the question
18:45:08 [ht]
"Each built-in datatype defined in this specification can be uniquely addressed via a URI Reference constructed as follows:
18:45:08 [ht]
the base URI is the URI of the XML Schema namespace
18:45:08 [ht]
the fragment identifier is the name of the datatype
18:45:08 [ht]
For example, to address the int datatype, the URI is:
18:45:08 [ht]"
18:45:12 [noah]
q+ to talk about media type registrations
18:45:15 [Yves]
Ashok: you don't want to refer to a place in the document, you want to refer to a datatype. So a different use of a fragid
18:45:58 [noah]
ack next
18:46:00 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to talk about media type registrations
18:46:56 [jar]
3023bis is not in effect yet
18:48:13 [Yves]
noah: when talking about 3023bis, we tripped over the same issue with RDF, saying that the fragment is not identifying what is meant by 3023bis. Now there are two more exceptions, xpath functions and now xml schema
18:48:20 [ht]
<xs:simpleType name="int" id="int">
18:49:26 [ht]
[from the schema-doc for schemas --- so there are anchors there already, the conneg problem is that there are no such anchors in the other leg of the conneg]
18:49:41 [Yves]
jar: no need to talk about 3023bis. Only read 3023 which is what is in effect right now
18:50:07 [jar]
application/xhtml+xml already specifies rdf-style fragids… we could just assume that and put rdfa in the ns doc.. don't talk about 3023bis now
18:50:10 [Yves]
noah: our goal with 3023bis was to help move out, so it's relevant
18:50:20 [Yves]
jar: relevant to 3023bis, but not to this discussion
18:50:54 [noah]
18:51:21 [noah]
s/same issue with RDF/same issue with rdf+xml/
18:51:40 [Yves]
ht: the wording in the schema spec is using "
18:51:41 [Yves]
Each built-in datatype in this specification (both primitive and derived) can be uniquely addressed via a URI Reference constructed as follows:
18:51:44 [Yves]
18:52:45 [JeniT]
18:52:45 [Yves]
if we conneg, we have a document where the anchor is defined, one where the anchor is not
18:52:47 [noah]
noah: I thought our tentative agreement with RFC 3023bis authors (Chris Lilley and Murata Makoto) was that application/rdf+xml would be called out as the one exception to the rule that someURIreturningXML#fragid would in all cases be interpreted per XPointer
18:53:20 [Ashok]
18:53:32 [Yves]
ht: not that this issue was before http-range-14
18:53:33 [noah]
noah: I'm pointing out that we're hearing that XSD datatype namespace documents and XQuery function namespace documents may be two more exceptions. I'm suggesting this should be discussed with Murata-san and Chris
18:53:36 [Yves]
18:53:50 [noah]
ack next
18:53:53 [jar]
FOAF spec sets good example, I think? (for the rdf-style fragids at least)
18:54:13 [noah]
noah: I hear Henry saying "yeah, I have a broader action to get back to the 3023bis folks"
18:54:17 [Yves]
Jeni: the other way of resolving it would be to remove the ids from the schema doc
18:54:43 [noah]
18:54:43 [trackbot]
ACTION-564 -- Henry Thompson to track fragid issues in 3023bis, report to TAG and/or communicate with 3023bis editors as appropriate -- due 2012-02-14 -- OPEN
18:54:43 [trackbot]
18:54:46 [Yves]
ht: the group will probably think that it will breaks backward compatibility
18:56:06 [jar]
ht: "can be addressed" in schema spec is webarch-anomalous
18:56:32 [JeniT]
it's been a useful example I think on the fragid work
18:56:33 [noah]
XSD 1.1 datatypes document:
18:57:53 [noah]
Oops, that's for markup like <xs:facet>. Sorry.
18:57:56 [noah]
18:58:00 [noah]
ack nest
18:58:02 [noah]
ack next
18:58:50 [Yves]
Ashok: let's turn the question around: you got a collection of data types, you want to talk about data types, and collection of data types. What mechanism can be used?
18:59:14 [Yves]
jar: RDF semantics tells you what those URIs means
19:00:06 [jar]
google rdf-mt
19:00:22 [JeniT]
ashok, you could use RDF that said xsd:int rdfs:isDescribedBy <schema.xsd#int-anchor>
19:00:24 [Yves]
19:00:38 [noah]
ack next
19:00:58 [Yves]
Topic: Possible late addition to the agenda: ACTION-560: Polyglot document review
19:01:11 [Yves]
s/Possible late addition to the agenda: //
19:01:11 [noah]
19:01:11 [trackbot]
ACTION-560 -- Henry Thompson to review HTML polyglot last call Due 2011-06-06 -- due 2012-01-24 -- OPEN
19:01:11 [trackbot]
19:01:12 [Ashok]
Yes, Jeni, we could now ... there was no RDF when we decided on that convention
19:01:37 [JeniT]
ashok, sure :)
19:01:50 [noah]
Referring to HTML issue 120
19:02:09 [Yves]
ht: this has to do with my concern with HTML issue 120, allowing to remove all ns definitions from html5
19:02:10 [noah]
19:03:17 [noah]
Henry please clarify: are you speaking specifically of the text/html serialization? I assume application/xhtml+xml supports namespaces and puts them in the DOM in any case, right?
19:03:24 [Yves]
the status quo seemed to mean that ns definition was allowed in html5, but it is still unclea
19:03:27 [Yves]
19:05:02 [noah]
RDF or RDFa?
19:05:18 [JeniT]
19:05:25 [noah]
q+ to get clarification and ask about the DOM
19:05:51 [noah]
ack next
19:05:52 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to get clarification and ask about the DOM
19:06:41 [Yves]
noah: by html5, you wanted to say the html serialization of the xml one?
19:07:13 [Yves]
ht: it's about the use of ns declaration with the html parser (as opposed to the xml parser)
19:07:18 [JeniT]
the RDFa-in-HTML doc that talks about interpreting namespace declarations is
19:07:19 [ht]
s/of the/or the/
19:09:42 [Yves]
ht: RDFa talks about the DOM and about the infoset. There is something in the html spec about how to get an infoset out of the html parser
19:11:28 [noah]
19:11:39 [noah]
19:11:39 [trackbot]
ACTION-560 -- Henry Thompson to review HTML polyglot last call Due 2011-06-06 -- due 2012-01-24 -- OPEN
19:11:39 [trackbot]
19:12:49 [noah]
noah: My point was, we should focus not so much on whether HTML5 claims to drop or not drop namespaces, but rather on what's in the DOM, and whether downsteam specs can build on that to get namespaces when they need them
19:13:12 [noah]
ACTION-560 Due 2012-02-28
19:13:13 [trackbot]
ACTION-560 Review HTML polyglot last call Due 2011-06-06 due date now 2012-02-28
19:13:27 [Zakim]
19:13:34 [Yves]
Topic: Web Application Storage
19:13:40 [noah]
19:13:40 [trackbot]
ACTION-632 -- Ashok Malhotra to frame issues around client-side storage work -- due 2012-02-07 -- OPEN
19:13:40 [trackbot]
19:13:46 [noah]
19:13:46 [trackbot]
ACTION-647 -- Ashok Malhotra to draft product page on client-side storage focusing on specific goals and success criteria Due: 2012-01-17 -- due 2012-02-07 -- OPEN
19:13:46 [trackbot]
19:13:51 [noah]
19:13:51 [trackbot]
ACTION-572 -- Yves Lafon to look at appcache in HTML5 -- due 2011-11-29 -- OPEN
19:13:51 [trackbot]
19:15:05 [Yves]
Noah: draft product page on this
19:15:30 [Yves]
we got feedback from Robin on the ML
19:16:10 [noah]
Draft product page:
19:16:19 [noah]
AM: I don't think Robin is objecting to the product page
19:16:27 [Yves]
Ashok: Robin comments were very useful. I don't think that he objecting to the product page
19:16:53 [noah]
NM: I'm proposing we get as far as we can with those of us on the call, and we will address any remaining concerns Robin may have when he's available
19:17:08 [Yves]
Ashok: we need to clarify what the issues are.
19:17:58 [noah]
19:17:58 [noah]
The goal of this work is to document for the community good practices relating to the use of client-side local storage by Web Applications.
19:18:54 [noah]
YL: Seems to be about use of current technologies....
19:19:25 [noah]
AM: You are right, was going to get to that, but will do so now.
19:19:44 [noah]
AM: One of the things you want are apps that can run connected or disconnected
19:19:59 [noah]
AM: Should be easy to switch modes
19:20:39 [noah]
AM: If you actually look at appcache, which helps you with offline, you can't do that. The app is either online or offline. Your files are the resources that you have stored locally. You cannot update, etc.
19:20:50 [noah]
q+ to say we want architectural principles.
19:21:34 [noah]
AM: There's no synchronization, etc. If we start with "this is what client-side storage should enable", you want up with a bunch of requirements, many of which are not yet addressed in current technology. So, we're speaking about requirements for a client-side storage facility.
19:21:46 [noah]
AM: This is different in spirit than what we usually do.
19:22:00 [noah]
ack next
19:22:46 [noah]
YL: Clarification about app cache. It's more about having consistent state of resources belonging to web apps. If you're offline, you'll have in your cache all the data you need to run. it's consistent, and it's all there. WHen connected, you might get updates.
19:23:23 [noah]
YL: That's a bit different from local storage, or a comprehensive approach to disconnected operation that might include PUT/POST, etc.
19:23:33 [noah]
YL: So appcache and local storage are different
19:23:35 [noah]
ack next
19:23:36 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to say we want architectural principles.
19:25:00 [Yves]
noah: we should emphasize on architectural issues. The success criteria starts with "what are the requirements", but it may not be TAG's role to take the lead here. TAG's role might be more in the use of URI, the interaction with the HTTP cache, etc...
19:25:48 [Yves]
Ashok: we also need to say what we want local storage to do for us
19:26:55 [Yves]
noah: we want to understand the use cases, but the main thing is about the architectural principles
19:27:02 [Yves]
like linking
19:28:05 [Yves]
ex: if you are creating something locally and it will be exported, what is the linking story there?
19:29:31 [Zakim]
19:31:14 [Yves]
let's continue in two weeks, when Ashok and Robin will be there
19:31:24 [Yves]
19:31:26 [Zakim]
19:31:28 [Zakim]
19:31:29 [Zakim]
19:31:30 [Zakim]
19:31:32 [Zakim]
19:31:33 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
19:31:34 [Zakim]
Attendees were plinss, Ashok_Malhotra, Jonathan_Rees, [IPcaller], ht, noah, JeniT, Yves, DKA
19:31:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Yves
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