IRC log of svg on 2012-01-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:59:55 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-svg-irc

19:59:57 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

19:59:57 [Zakim]

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Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG

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ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:00PM already started

20:00:00 [trackbot]

Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference

20:00:00 [trackbot]

Date: 26 January 2012

20:01:03 [Zakim]

+??P3

20:01:10 [ed]

Zakim, ??P3 is me

20:01:10 [Zakim]

+ed; got it

20:02:28 [cyril]

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20:03:29 [cabanier]

zakim, +1.206.734.aaa is me

20:03:29 [Zakim]

+cabanier; got it

20:03:37 [krit]

Zakim: and me?

20:03:50 [Zakim]

+ +29805aabb

20:04:13 [krit]

Zakim: who's here

20:04:15 [cyril]

zakim, Olivier_Goldman is krit

20:04:15 [Zakim]

sorry, cyril, I do not recognize a party named 'Olivier_Goldman'

20:04:18 [Zakim]

+??P5

20:04:20 [heycam]

Zakim, ??P5 is me

20:04:20 [Zakim]

+heycam; got it

20:04:22 [cyril]

zakim, Oliver_Goldman is krit

20:04:22 [Zakim]

+krit; got it

20:04:27 [ed]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0038.html

20:05:06 [ed]

Chair: ed

20:05:31 [cyril]

zakim, +29805aabb is me

20:05:31 [Zakim]

+cyril; got it

20:05:33 [ed]

Zakim, pick a victim?

20:05:33 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, ed.

20:05:40 [ed]

Zakim, pick a scribe

20:05:40 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose heycam

20:06:01 [cabanier]

scribenick: cabanier

20:06:20 [Zakim]

+Tav

20:06:39 [cabanier]

topic: CSS Transforms and the behavior of SVG DOM

20:06:44 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Merged_Transforms#CSSOM_issues

20:07:01 [cabanier]

krit: I'm working on the merged css transform specification

20:07:05 [krit]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Merged_Transforms

20:07:23 [cabanier]

krit: I found some possible SVG DOM issues

20:07:25 [plinss]

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20:07:35 [cabanier]

krit: issue 11

20:07:58 [cabanier]

Issue 11: Interaction of SVG DOMs SVGTransformList and SVGTransform to the CSS property

20:08:04 [cabanier]

On transforming the SVG attribute transform' to a presentation attribute, the interaction of SVG DOM with CSSOM must be clarified. While an SVG attribute has a one-dimensional hierarchy where the value can just be influenced by the unique SVGTransformList, CSS had different cascading. Like described for CSSOm above, it is difficult to map cascading to the one-dimensional hierarchy, since different

20:08:04 [cabanier]

style sheets can affect the style of an element and there for can have different affects to computed style. Computed itself style doesn't allow modifications.

20:08:42 [cabanier]

krit: how can SVG DOM work with CSS?

20:10:01 [cabanier]

krit: my proposal is to add a new stylesheet

20:10:20 [krit]

Follow other presenattion attributes with transform

20:10:22 [ChrisL]

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20:10:28 [krit]

Creating new Author style sheet

20:11:08 [Zakim]

+ChrisL

20:11:15 [krit]

the hierarchy of the author style sheet is after UA style sheets and before other author style sheets

20:11:29 [krit]

SVG DOM should reflect the new created style sheet

20:12:24 [cabanier]

heycam: this is just make the SVG DOM expose the stylesheet

20:12:41 [heycam]

the style sheet for the presentation attributes (the low priority one) that is

20:13:01 [ChrisL]

s/priority/specicicity/

20:13:04 [cabanier]

heycam: on first reading this sounds reasonable

20:13:25 [ChrisL]

s/specicicity/specificity/

20:13:27 [cabanier]

heycam: people might be confused that CSS rules are not reflected in SVG DOM

20:14:16 [cabanier]

heycam: we had a discussion that make the baseline the initial value

20:14:45 [cyril]

s/baseline/base value/

20:15:19 [ed]

it was "inline style" not "initial value", no?

20:15:28 [ChrisL]

yes

20:15:38 [cabanier]

heycam: reading out the value would get you the animated transform

20:16:02 [cabanier]

chrisl: animval is the computed val?

20:16:26 [ChrisL]

so the base value reflects the presentation attribute and the animval reflects the computed value

20:16:36 [cabanier]

heycam: basevalue and animval can reflect different thing

20:16:44 [cabanier]

krit: animval is the computed value

20:16:51 [cabanier]

ed: that makes most sense

20:17:12 [cabanier]

krit: that is not defined at the moment

20:17:29 [cabanier]

krit: it makes most sense to have a list of animated values as well

20:17:40 [ChrisL]

agree a tranfrom list is more useful

20:18:10 [cabanier]

heycam: it is more useful to inspect to have a list of transform item rather than a flat matrix

20:18:21 [ed]

s/that makes most sense/that makes most sense but I'm concerned about whether that means a flattened matrix, or if it's a list of matrices/

20:18:32 [cabanier]

chrisl: you can always create a matrix, but no the other way round

20:18:57 [cabanier]

cyril: why is this so different?

20:19:21 [cabanier]

cyril: is it because of the cascade?

20:19:36 [cabanier]

kris: yes, the transform property has the cascade

20:20:11 [cabanier]

heycam: transform is now becoming a presentation attribute and we have to figure out what that means for the SVG DOM

20:20:51 [cabanier]

heycam: there is no access to the CSS dom from SVG. There is no .fill attribute

20:21:06 [cabanier]

krit: there is no animval/baseval to fill

20:21:23 [cabanier]

heycam: I agree with Dirk's proposal. It matches what I was thinking of.

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20:22:43 [heycam]

I prefer Dirk's suggestion because if you don't use transform in style="" or in CSS style sheets, then the SVG DOM for transform works the same as it always has.

20:23:01 [cabanier]

heycam: it also works with the animval

20:23:41 [cabanier]

heycam: by having animval reflect the computed style, it will looks the same as before

20:24:23 [cabanier]

cyril: patrick's proposal has the same proplem

20:24:38 [cabanier]

heycam: yes, we would want a consistent solution

20:25:41 [cabanier]

ed: what does 'works with animval' mean?

20:25:45 [cyril]

s/patrick's proposal has the same proplem/does patrick's proposal to turn some attributes into properties has the same problem ? If so, is the current solution also applicable?/

20:26:43 [ChrisL]

yes we do

20:26:45 [ed]

issue 12

20:26:53 [cabanier]

krit: can we do 3d transform on SVG as well?

20:27:09 [cabanier]

krit: we would need new interfaces for perspective, etc

20:27:17 [ChrisL]

yes, we would

20:27:49 [cabanier]

krit: do we want to extend SVG interfaces to access 3d transforms?

20:27:53 [heycam]

s/on SVG as well/on SVGTransformList/

20:28:29 [cabanier]

krit: we would have to specify everything that is in CSS, in SVG as well

20:28:57 [cabanier]

heycam: I don't think it's that much work, since it pretty simple

20:29:25 [cabanier]

heycam: otherwise we would have to specify what happens when you read out the transformlist

20:30:04 [cabanier]

krit: I would specify that it's unresolvable. SVG DOM would just return undefined

20:30:25 [cabanier]

krit: you would access everything with CSS and this would make things backward compatible

20:30:50 [cabanier]

heycam: I guess we'll have similar issue with other issues

20:31:02 [cabanier]

heycam: ie by using 'calc' in css

20:31:12 [cabanier]

krit: yes, it is a general issue

20:31:49 [cabanier]

krit: I would stop developing SVG DOM for these use cases

20:32:13 [cabanier]

s/stop developing/not develop

20:32:46 [cabanier]

heycam: yes, maybe we'll use the CSSOM to manipulate

20:33:42 [cabanier]

heycam: if we improve the SVG DOM, should we target transform or should we do that in CSS?

20:33:51 [cabanier]

krit: just do it in CSS

20:34:33 [cabanier]

heycam: ie accessing width/height of a rectangle

20:36:30 [cabanier]

krit: if you have SVG length, you can drop the 'px' but not in CSS

20:36:48 [cabanier]

krit: I think the group should work on allowing that in CSS

20:36:51 [glenn]

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20:37:12 [cabanier]

heycam: in CSS you can using units, while in SVG you can't

20:37:32 [cabanier]

heycam: ie you can use '%' in CSS while in SVG you can't

20:38:00 [cabanier]

krit: maybe we should resolve % to pixel in SVG

20:38:09 [cabanier]

heycam: that would be possible

20:38:57 [cabanier]

heycam: I'm OK with returning unknown type

20:39:11 [cabanier]

ed: in practice, people will use the CSSOM

20:39:43 [cabanier]

ed: since if you use the CSS feature, you will want to use that interface anyway

20:39:54 [cabanier]

ed: we should try to make the CSSOM as good as possible

20:40:00 [cabanier]

krit: yes

20:40:19 [cabanier]

krit: I would like to have the same features in CSSOM that we have in SVG now

20:40:57 [cabanier]

krit: make the CCSS interface such as transformlist live

20:41:26 [cabanier]

heycam: does the combined transforms spec define any CSSOM interfaces?

20:41:54 [cabanier]

krit: we have not specified transformlist but have css matrix

20:42:10 [cabanier]

heycam: so if you use getcomputedstyle you will get them back?

20:43:25 [cabanier]

krit: changes to cssmatrix are reflected in css transform as well.

20:43:54 [cabanier]

krit: css transforms are more complicated than other css features

20:44:14 [cabanier]

heycam: this is more a question for the CSS people

20:44:28 [cabanier]

chrisl: it's not clear who is editing that.

20:44:39 [cabanier]

heycam: glenn is supposed to be editing that

20:46:56 [cabanier]

resolution: for issue 11 and 12, we will accept the recommended solutions (see: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Merged_Transforms#SVG_DOM_issues)

20:48:29 [cabanier]

topic: OpenType and SVG

20:48:55 [cabanier]

krit: the problem are not willing to implement SVG fonts

20:49:13 [cabanier]

chrisl: I proposed that we implement only WOFF

20:49:40 [cabanier]

chrisl: it's very clear that mozilla and microsoft are not going to implement this

20:50:33 [cabanier]

chrisl: there is a proposal to add SVG fonts to OpenType

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20:50:47 [cabanier]

chrisl: my feeling is that is longer term than SVG2

20:51:07 [cabanier]

heycam: we have an intern working on this.

20:51:41 [cabanier]

heycam: SVG glyphs inside OpenType

20:52:01 [cabanier]

chrisl: there is no consensus how this format will look like

20:52:07 [krit]

https://wiki.mozilla.org/SVGOpenTypeFonts

20:52:12 [cabanier]

heycam: let me give you a link to the bug

20:52:16 [heycam]

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=719286

20:52:36 [cabanier]

heycam: I have never seen that page before

20:52:44 [cabanier]

chrisl: me neither

20:53:14 [cabanier]

heycam: this looks more like brainstorming

20:53:44 [cabanier]

chrisl: this page should be updated with pointers to mailing lists, etc

20:54:16 [cabanier]

heycam: the idea for the intern is to see how this works and report back

20:54:50 [cabanier]

chrisl: I'm worried that the message will be that we already figured it out

20:55:08 [cabanier]

chrisl: experimentation is great though. I'm very pleased

20:55:49 [cabanier]

chrisl: sairus from Adobe is working on this

20:56:19 [cabanier]

cabanier: I believe Sairus has a proposal. I can ping him.

20:56:59 [heycam]

http://www.w3.org/community/svgopentype/

20:57:04 [cabanier]

dirk: we need to find a way to have a public discussion ie by a mailing list

20:57:37 [cabanier]

chrisl: I started the community group because people were emailing many groups

20:57:51 [heycam]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svgopentype/

20:57:52 [cabanier]

chrisl: have a central location that is archived is important

20:59:01 [cabanier]

chrisl: woff encapsulates OpenType

20:59:13 [cabanier]

chrisl: CSS3 also mandates OT

20:59:30 [cabanier]

chrisl: we are also going that way

21:00:15 [ChrisL]

so if opentype adds this, svg will use it. discussion should be on the community group

21:00:34 [cabanier]

resolution: any discussion should happen on the SVG OpenType group (http://www.w3.org/community/svgopentype/)

21:01:56 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft]

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21:02:44 [cabanier]

topic: SVG2 Requirements

21:02:45 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input

21:03:07 [cabanier]

cyril: I will edit the wiki page

21:03:44 [cyril]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#the_.3CsolidColor.3E_element

21:03:56 [Zakim]

-ChrisL

21:04:45 [Zakim]

+ChrisL

21:05:00 [cabanier]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#solid-color

21:05:27 [cabanier]

chrisl: it's a single element gradient

21:05:31 [cyril]

zakim, pointer

21:05:31 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'pointer', cyril

21:05:38 [cyril]

rrsagent, pointer

21:05:38 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-svg-irc#T21-05-38

21:05:44 [Zakim]

-Tav

21:06:21 [cabanier]

chrisl: it's for paint servers, that are pointed to by a url

21:06:28 [Zakim]

-[Microsoft]

21:06:38 [Zakim]

+Tav

21:06:52 [cabanier]

krit: can't this be done with CSS right now?

21:06:54 [plinss]

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21:06:59 [ed]

<solidColor id="solidMaroon" solid-color="maroon" solid-opacity="0.7"/> <rect fill="url(#solidMaroon)" .../>

21:07:12 [cabanier]

chrisl: not sure. by having the same class and style rule

21:08:21 [cabanier]

chris: css animation would select a class, right?

21:08:25 [cabanier]

krit: yes

21:09:18 [cabanier]

krit: if you use a selector that is less specific, does the animation not happen?

21:09:43 [cabanier]

krit: regardless of using this in CSS, people today are working around this with gradients.

21:10:04 [cabanier]

tav: inkscape has a horrible patch to do this with a one stop gradient

21:10:45 [cabanier]

chrisl: a solid color is really what you want to do. SVG 1.1 had it in there. It seems like a solid feature

21:11:43 [ChrisL]

and 1.2T had it too

21:11:47 [cabanier]

tav: inkscape would have a much simpler solution if it was in there

21:11:48 [ChrisL]

and inkscape needs it

21:12:19 [cabanier]

cyril: could inkscape do it will CSS classes?

21:12:22 [ed]

so essentially it transforms <linearGradient><stop stop-color="foobar"/></linearGradient> into <solidColor solid-color="foobar"/>...

21:12:28 [cabanier]

tav: inkscape doesn't do classes

21:13:04 [heycam]

I think it wouldn't work with CSS, since you either need to have various different style rules for different properties, so you lose the ability to change the colour in a single place.

21:13:09 [cyril]

s/do it will/define a color palette with/

21:13:23 [heycam]

s/wouldn't work with CSS/you couldn't just do this with CSS/

21:14:13 [cabanier]

heycam: CSS variables seems to be solving the same use case

21:14:27 [cabanier]

chrisl: having named colors

21:14:53 [cabanier]

is one of the primary reason for them. This is a very useful feature.

21:15:17 [ChrisL]

it regularises the syntax so that you can use a paint server for solid as well as radient and pattern fills.

21:15:29 [cabanier]

heycam: CSS variables is still far away but it would be good to avoid the same feature twice

21:15:32 [ChrisL]

also, you can animate the url to go from a solid to a gradient ad back

21:15:38 [ChrisL]

its very flexible

21:15:59 [cabanier]

ed: this is very simple to implement. It doesn't add much code

21:16:53 [cabanier]

resolution: we will add solid-color element to SVG2

21:17:25 [ed]

s/solid-color/solidColor/

21:17:35 [cabanier]

s/solid-color/solid-color and solid-opacity property

21:18:41 [cabanier]

topic: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#text-align

21:19:09 [cyril]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#xml:id

21:19:29 [cabanier]

topic: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#xml:id

21:19:35 [cabanier]

chrisl: we should drop it

21:19:42 [cabanier]

everyone: agreed

21:19:50 [cabanier]

resolution: drop XML:id

21:20:17 [cabanier]

topic: role, rel, rev, about, content, datatype, property, resource, typeof

21:20:30 [cabanier]

chrisl: hasn't seen much use but it is used in HTML

21:20:50 [cabanier]

heycam: doesn't exactly match with what HTML5 has since they start with item

21:21:31 [cabanier]

krit: I think it's great but should match HTML5

21:21:54 [cabanier]

heycam: HTML5 doesn't require RDFA and microdata

21:22:23 [cabanier]

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21:22:24 [ChrisL]

s/hasn't seen much use/was added to support RDFa and microdate, but hasn't seen much use/

21:22:58 [cabanier]

heycam: microdata came with a set of DOM interfaces that we want to support

21:23:03 [cabanier]

chrisl: yes

21:23:52 [cabanier]

heycam: scannig the HTML5 spec, I don't see where RDFA is required.

21:24:04 [cabanier]

heycam: maybe there is a seperate spec

21:24:19 [cabanier]

s/scannig/scanning

21:24:45 [cabanier]

chrisl: RDFlite is I believe

21:25:04 [cabanier]

chrisl: it could be that the spec hasn't been updated

21:25:33 [cabanier]

resolution: for RDFa and microdata follow what HTML does

21:26:10 [cabanier]

topic: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#display-align

21:27:03 [ed]

this depends on <textArea>

21:27:10 [cabanier]

chrisl: this is moot since we're following CSS

21:27:23 [cabanier]

chrisl: not textarea

21:27:30 [ChrisL]

its tied to f the 'textArea' element. which we are not using

21:27:39 [cabanier]

resolution: we won't display-align since we won't have textarea

21:28:56 [cabanier]

topic: buffered rendering

21:29:09 [cabanier]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#buffered-rendering

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21:29:40 [cabanier]

ed: it's a hint to cache as much as possible

21:29:48 [cabanier]

ed: it's not a requirement

21:30:05 [cabanier]

cabanier: this is very useful

21:30:12 [cabanier]

krit: I'm fine with it

21:30:24 [cabanier]

heycam: I'm concerned about these hints

21:30:38 [cabanier]

heycam: like filter-region

21:30:50 [cabanier]

ed: I agree

21:32:07 [ed]

s/agree/share your concern about misuse of this property, but it's sometimes needed for specific devices/scenarios/

21:33:29 [cabanier]

resolution: after implementor feedback, we agree that buffer rendering hints are needed

21:34:47 [cabanier]

heycam: with CSS transform, you can get pixelated buffers

21:35:13 [cabanier]

heycam: we should have a requirement that they should rerender

21:36:10 [heycam]

s/we should/would we have/

21:36:19 [heycam]

s/have have/have/

21:36:23 [cabanier]

ed: in most cases you don't get pixels

21:36:36 [cabanier]

s/get/want

21:37:03 [Zakim]

-Tav

21:37:58 [Zakim]

-ed

21:38:00 [Zakim]

-krit

21:38:00 [Zakim]

-heycam

21:38:02 [Zakim]

-ChrisL

21:38:06 [Zakim]

-cabanier

21:38:13 [ChrisL]

zakim, list attendees

21:38:13 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been +1.206.734.aaaa, ed, cabanier, heycam, krit, cyril, Tav, ChrisL, [Microsoft]

21:38:24 [ChrisL]

rrsagent, make minutes

21:38:24 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-svg-minutes.html ChrisL

21:39:02 [cabanier]

thanks!

21:39:25 [Zakim]

-cyril

21:39:26 [Zakim]

GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:00PM has ended

21:39:27 [Zakim]

Attendees were +1.206.734.aaaa, ed, cabanier, heycam, krit, cyril, Tav, ChrisL, [Microsoft]

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21:47:33 [cyril]

118/180 requirements

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