19:59:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
19:59:59 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/19-svg-irc
20:00:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:00:01 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
20:00:03 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:00:03 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:00PM already started
20:00:04 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:00:04 <trackbot> Date: 19 January 2012
20:06:33 <Zakim> +??P4
20:06:40 <ed> Zakim, ??P4 is me
20:06:40 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:06:53 <ed> Zakim, who's here?
20:06:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.415.832.aaaa, ed
20:06:54 <Zakim> +??P5
20:06:56 <heycam> Zakim, ??P5 is me
20:06:56 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
20:07:17 <krit> Zakim, +1.415.832.aaaa is me
20:07:17 <Zakim> +krit; got it
20:07:21 <heycam> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0031.html
20:07:24 <heycam> Chair: Cameron
20:07:30 <heycam> Regrets: Rik, Cyril
20:07:50 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
20:08:18 <Zakim> +Tav
20:08:40 <Zakim> +ChrisL
20:09:16 <ChrisL> zakim, pick a victim
20:09:16 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ChrisL
20:09:31 <ChrisL> scribenick: ChrisL
20:09:55 <ChrisL> topic:svg in border- and background-image
20:10:08 <ChrisL> ed: raised in css images spec a long time ago
20:10:10 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Dec/0427.html
20:11:02 <ChrisL> ed: asking what to do when border-image references an svg image.slices into 9,not clear how it should work - split beforeor after computing aspect ration
20:11:22 <ChrisL> ... elika says if we want it to work a particular way we should define it, not css
20:11:44 <ChrisL> heycam: does css spec give us some hooks?
20:11:53 <ChrisL> ed: not sure
20:12:15 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/
20:13:00 <ChrisL> heycam: section 3 in there
20:13:12 <ChrisL> ed: also section 5.1
20:13:15 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#sizing
20:14:23 <ChrisL> heycam: assume the way its defined is that you put the box for the outer svg element for the size before slicing up and nothing special to be done for aspect ration
20:14:32 <ChrisL> ed: so you then stretch the bitmap
20:14:37 <ChrisL> heycam: why
20:14:57 <ChrisL> ed: where you renderthe border in a different aspect ratio
20:15:41 <ChrisL> ChrisL: prefer to see this as clipping regions rather than re-scaling a rester result
20:15:48 <ChrisL> s/rester/raster/
20:16:18 <ChrisL> heycam; like if you had an svg element in an  htmldoc and set the width and height properties
20:17:10 <krit> krit in th channel yes
20:17:38 <ChrisL> krit: is that on the border width of the element that uses svg as the border image?
20:17:59 <ChrisL> heycam: maybe something can be done with intrinsiic aspect ratio?
20:18:12 <ChrisL> karl: we have default values for width and height
20:18:20 <ChrisL> heycam: the 300 150?
20:18:22 <heycam> s/karl/krti/
20:18:25 <heycam> s/krti/krit/
20:19:06 <krit> :)
20:19:38 <ChrisL> heycam: whitespace on top and bottom makes it less useful. put PAR none
20:20:26 <ChrisL> heycam: if you use a raster image, the middle parts get scaled?
20:20:38 <ChrisL> ChrisL: you can scale them or replicate them
20:20:40 <krit> http://www.css3.info/preview/border-image/
20:20:48 <ChrisL> Tav: need an example
20:22:39 <ChrisL> ChrisL: a lot of stretch, which is why its better to do as a clip and render atthe exact size needed
20:22:46 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-background/
20:24:04 <ChrisL> heycam: sounds like we know what we want to put in the spec
20:24:10 <ChrisL> ed: is there a test suite
20:24:19 <ChrisL> ChrisL: a bit
20:24:38 <ChrisL> ed: and none for this particular case? can take action to make some
20:24:53 <ChrisL> action: erik to make css3 background and border tests
20:24:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3228 - Make css3 background and border tests [on Erik Dahlström - due 2012-01-26].
20:25:16 <ChrisL> heycam: suggested text that eleika pointed to in her second mail ....
20:25:27 <heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Jan/0809.html
20:26:13 <ChrisL> krit: from the second email we would not be able to use repeat, looks the same as stretch
20:27:23 <ChrisL> heycam; seems like its done after the 
20:27:59 <ChrisL> ChrisL: need to work out an integer number of repeats, scale slightly so theywork out to an integer multiple
20:28:13 <ChrisL> krit: yes
20:28:45 <ChrisL> heycam: if you have an explicit w&h on svg,can use that to do the repititions
20:28:57 <ChrisL> ... but if only an intrinsic aspect ratio
20:29:16 <ChrisL> Tav: nothing to divide by
20:29:53 <ChrisL> heycam: you dont have the intrinsic width
20:30:42 <ChrisL> ChrisL: aim is to stretch the replicated part as little as possible
20:31:43 <ChrisL> heycam: fit each of the 8 sections separately ... sounds sensible
20:32:27 <ChrisL> ChrisL:we can define this and also give authoring guidelines to use it well
20:32:44 <ChrisL> heycam; so weshould propose some wording back
20:33:16 <ChrisL> ed:wanted to hear what group thought of responses so far. want what is best for authors
20:33:33 <ChrisL> ... so lets go for the separate sections
20:33:46 <ChrisL> ... getting a feel for what is most natural
20:34:26 <ChrisL> heycam: good to work the same as for raster - consistency
20:34:44 <ChrisL> ChrisL: while still gettingthe benefit of vector
20:34:47 <ChrisL> heycam: yes
20:35:26 <ChrisL> heycam: someone should look into the repeating while preserving aspect ratio before repeating
20:36:04 <ChrisL> action: chris to look into the repeating while preserving aspect ratio before repeating
20:36:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3229 - Look into the repeating while preserving aspect ratio before repeating [on Chris Lilley - due 2012-01-26].
20:37:13 <ChrisL> topic: svg2 requirements
20:37:38 <heycam> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#the_.27snapshotTime.27_attribute_on_the_.3Csvg.3E_element
20:37:40 <ChrisL> heycam: we are on the tiny 1.2ones - i will edit as we go
20:37:48 <ChrisL> topic: snapshot time
20:37:55 <ChrisL> heycam: i like that
20:38:22 <ChrisL> ... as a way to render animated documents for a static view
20:38:43 <ChrisL> ... easier to specify a particular time
20:40:01 <ChrisL> ChrisL: it is good, but only for implementations that do animation and need a paster image
20:40:12 <ChrisL> krit: if you have multipleanimations?
20:40:21 <ChrisL> ChrisL: yes, its on the whole document
20:40:36 <ChrisL> krit: and events
20:41:10 <ChrisL> ...events that are generated?
20:41:33 <ChrisL> ChrisL: yes, you run the whole animation intil the clock is the snapshot time, then you render that state
20:41:46 <ChrisL> heycam: in batik i did a set current time
20:42:12 <ChrisL> ... so you get all the syncbase stuff. not sure if hyperlinking dispatches the start and end events
20:42:49 <ChrisL> ... better to do like that rather thsn have two ways to seek through the document
20:43:24 <ChrisL> ChrisL: suggest we accept the requirement and tighten up the spec on how you seek
20:43:38 <ChrisL> ed: spec does not say it is rendered 
20:45:33 <ChrisL> heycam: printingis a case, for html when would  it
20:45:44 <ChrisL> ChrisL: (scribe missed) :)
20:46:09 <ChrisL> heycam: the snapshot time could be the base values before you run the animation
20:46:56 <ChrisL> ChrisL: need to stop it being displayed at the start of the animation though
20:47:07 <ed> s/ it is rendered / the snapshotTime image must be rendered for anything in the svg spec itself, it's suggested it may be used for still images, but doesn't require it to be used by the UA/ 
20:47:48 <ChrisL> s/scribe missed/the use case was a set of animated icons, whose animation was disabled, but re-enabled on user interaction like mouseover/
20:48:52 <ChrisL> heycam: happy to bring this over - would still be metadata
20:49:39 <ChrisL> ChrisL: would be good to add a fragment like the view ones, to say render at the snapshot time
20:49:56 <ChrisL> ed: strange that its optional on 1.2T - we could tighten it up
20:50:32 <ChrisL> resolution: svg2 will add snapshot time for animated documents and may specify how to get at the rendered image
20:50:56 <heycam> RRSAgent, pointer
20:50:56 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/01/19-svg-irc#T20-50-56
20:51:14 <ChrisL> topic: the 'timelineBegin' attribute 
20:51:26 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/index.php?title=SVG2_Requirements_Input
20:51:57 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#the_.27timelineBegin.27_attribute_on_the_.3Csvg.3E_element
20:53:34 <ChrisL> heycam; wanted to get brian's input on the nextr few animation ones
20:54:28 <ed> here's an example of timelineBegin: http://dahlström.net/svg/smil/lennon-google-smil.svg
20:54:30 <heycam> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/struct.html#SVGElementTimelineBegin
20:55:28 <ChrisL> heycam: ties into alignment with css animations, which do not wait for document load
20:56:12 <ChrisL> heycam: want to mail brian and ask before we decide on these
20:56:16 <ChrisL> ChrisL: makes sense
20:56:41 <ChrisL> ed: useful functionality, waiting for document load is poor for large files
20:58:17 <ChrisL> action: cameron to mail brian about thesvgt 1.2 animation items
20:58:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3230 - Mail brian about thesvgt 1.2 animation items [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-01-26].
20:58:50 <heycam> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#the_.27requiredFonts.27_and_.27requiredFormats.27_conditional_processing_attributes
20:58:59 <ChrisL> topic: the 'requiredFonts' and 'requiredFormats' conditional processing attributes
20:59:48 <ChrisL> ChrisL: formats was to allow for audio and video where there is variable support
21:00:08 <ChrisL> heycam: html5 does it differently without a switch
21:00:30 <ChrisL> ... is it useful for content outside of video
21:01:23 <ChrisL> ed: for raster image formats and other special image formats; also for audio
21:01:32 <ChrisL> heycam; should use same mechanism as video
21:01:41 <ChrisL> ed: not so useful for image formats
21:02:22 <ChrisL> heycam; handling fallback for raster images is not well specified, but how often do people use other formats
21:03:03 <ChrisL> ChrisL: bitonal tiff is common for cad
21:03:30 <ChrisL> krit: so on video and audio, html5 does not use requiredFormats
21:03:49 <ChrisL> heycam; right  you use the track and the first supported one is used
21:04:10 <ChrisL> ... you cant have other svg displayed conditional on the format support tough
21:04:29 <ChrisL> heycam: media types do not specify the codec
21:04:43 <ChrisL> ... what about codec registries
21:05:22 <ChrisL> ChrisL; yes the intent is to add a parameter to the media type,to specify the codec
21:05:23 <Zakim> + +1.732.216.aabb
21:05:38 <ChrisL> heycam; registry is for avi and wav containers
21:06:25 <ChrisL> ... not clear its up to date
21:07:17 <ChrisL> heycam: neutral on requiredFormats in general
21:07:59 <ChrisL> krit; we don't need requiredFormats because html5 video and audio don't use it
21:08:33 <ChrisL> ed: with downloadable fonts, requiredFonts is less useful
21:08:47 <Zakim> -ChrisL
21:09:28 <Zakim> +ChrisL
21:09:29 <Zakim> -Tav
21:10:35 <ChrisL> ChrisL: does add value if the font is 404, and it allows tro depend on a set of fonts being available. css does not have that although it has been requested
21:10:50 <ChrisL> heycam; agree it is not otherwise available
21:11:13 <ChrisL> ed: opera implements them both, not seen that much use. ok either way
21:12:11 <ChrisL> ChrisL: with dl fonts its actually more useful to be able to do conditional based on a set of fonts
21:12:38 <ChrisL> heycam; reqFonts is simpler than reqFornmats 9no codec worries) so more in favor
21:13:20 <ChrisL> ... still unsure about the switch-heavy approach in general
21:13:30 <ChrisL> s/9no/(no/
21:13:51 <ChrisL> krit: neutral on requiredFonts
21:13:58 <ed> you can use the required* attributes without switch too
21:14:13 <ed> even if it's more useful with probably :)
21:14:14 <ChrisL> heycam: accept requirement for requiredFonts
21:14:32 <ChrisL> resolution: SVG2 wil adopt the requiredFonts attribute
21:14:50 <ChrisL> resolution: SVG2 will not adopt the requiredFormats attribute
21:15:24 <ChrisL> topic: the Progressive Rendering algorithm 
21:15:41 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#the_Progressive_Rendering_algorithm
21:15:53 <heycam> RRSAgent, pointer
21:15:53 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/01/19-svg-irc#T21-15-53
21:17:01 <ChrisL> ChrisL: this is good clarification
21:17:23 <Zakim> +Tav
21:17:28 <ChrisL> heycam; agree we should be more precise than with 1.1. Need to tie in with HTML5 document processing.
21:17:43 <ChrisL> .. start with the text here and modify it wrt html5
21:18:40 <ChrisL> resolution: SVG2 will add more precise text on progressive rendering, drawing on svgt 1.2 and html5
21:18:41 <heycam> RRSAgent, pointer
21:18:41 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/01/19-svg-irc#T21-18-41
21:19:11 <ChrisL> topic: the <prefetch> element 
21:19:14 <heycam> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#the_.3Cprefetch.3E_element
21:19:28 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/struct.html#PrefetchElement
21:20:40 <ChrisL> ChrisL: its for explicit prefetch rather than relying on @w or @h zero
21:21:04 <ChrisL> heycam; in scripting this can be done with new image - but this works for non scripted
21:21:37 <ChrisL> ... has a bunch of attrs that are relevant for media, like how many seconds to prefetch and how much bandwidth to use(!)
21:21:59 <ChrisL> ... not sure about the media-specific things
21:22:19 <ChrisL> ChrisL: why
21:22:36 <ChrisL> heycam; conflict with html5, and not sure thay are super useful
21:23:04 <ChrisL> krit; spec says ua can ignore the prefetch hint
21:24:06 <ChrisL> heycam: can have an image with visibility: hidden which causes prefetch - but would not want the audio to start
21:24:23 <ChrisL> ed: opera did not implement this for media, just for images
21:25:00 <ChrisL> ChrisL: remember we resolved to have a audio voume property so itcould be prefetched and muted
21:25:28 <ChrisL> heycam: since we can prefetch anyway, not sure how useful the optional prefetch hint is
21:26:14 <ChrisL> ... first para says svg 1.1does not define when referenced resources start downloading. we should define thst, to make vis: hidden prefetching reliable
21:26:23 <ChrisL> ... then we would not need prefetch element
21:26:28 <ChrisL> krit: agree
21:26:34 <ChrisL> ed: not that useful
21:26:38 <ChrisL> ChrisL; ok
21:27:01 <ChrisL> rwesolution: svg2 will not have the orefetch element but will clarify when resources start doanloading
21:27:28 <heycam> RRSAgent, pointer
21:27:28 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/01/19-svg-irc#T21-27-28
21:27:35 <ed> i would like us to state whether resources start downloading as soon as you set the href, even if it's not appended to the document
21:28:23 <ed> similar to Image in html, e.g var img = new Image(); img.src = "foo"
21:29:22 <ed> s/rwesolution: /resolution: /
21:29:59 <ChrisL> s/oref/pref/
21:30:22 <ChrisL> zakim, list attendees
21:30:22 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ed, heycam, krit, Tav, ChrisL, +1.732.216.aabb
21:30:30 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
21:30:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/19-svg-minutes.html ChrisL
21:30:35 <Zakim> -ChrisL
21:30:36 <Zakim> -krit
21:30:37 <Zakim> -ed
21:30:37 <Zakim> -heycam
21:30:39 <Zakim> -Tav
21:30:41 <Zakim> - +1.732.216.aabb
21:30:42 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)3:00PM has ended
21:30:44 <Zakim> Attendees were ed, heycam, krit, Tav, ChrisL, +1.732.216.aabb
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