20:59:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #audio
20:59:39 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/09-audio-irc
20:59:41 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
20:59:43 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 28346
20:59:43 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see RWC_Audio()4:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
20:59:44 <trackbot> Meeting: Audio Working Group Teleconference
20:59:44 <trackbot> Date: 09 January 2012
21:00:48 <roc> roc has joined #audio
21:01:15 <olivier> zakim, who is here?
21:01:15 <Zakim> I notice RWC_Audio()4:00PM has restarted
21:01:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P11, [IPcaller], +1.650.253.aaaa, Doug_Schepers, ??P7
21:01:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see roc, RRSAgent, Alistair, Zakim, chris, olivier, trackbot, F1LT3R, MikeSmith, LeanBack, shepazu, kinetik, quinnirill, foolip, paul_irish_
21:01:58 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
21:01:59 <olivier> Scribe: Olivier
21:02:04 <olivier> Chair: Alistair
21:02:38 <olivier> zakim, mute me
21:02:38 <Zakim> sorry, olivier, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
21:02:46 <Zakim> + +1.978.314.aabb
21:02:49 <olivier> zakim, who is making noise?
21:02:59 <Zakim> olivier, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.978.314.aabb (45%), ??P11 (50%)
21:03:29 <olivier> [meeting convenes]
21:04:42 <olivier> zakim, take up agendum 1
21:04:42 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Use Case Scenarios" taken up [from olivier]
21:05:17 <olivier> Al: at earlier meeting we decided the best way to divide up the work was through the use case and requirements document
21:05:23 <Alistair> http://www.w3.org/2011/audio/wiki/Use-Cases
21:05:58 <jon> jon has joined #audio
21:06:56 <shepazu> q+ to ask a strange use-case question
21:07:07 <quinnirill> hmm, I can't join, it says the call is full
21:07:43 <jon> same
21:07:57 <joeberkovitz> joeberkovitz has joined #audio
21:08:07 <jon> hi joe
21:08:35 <olivier> zakim, are you full?
21:08:35 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, olivier.
21:08:58 <shepazu> Zakim, who's here?
21:08:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P11, [IPcaller], +1.650.253.aaaa, Doug_Schepers, ??P7, [IPcaller.a], +1.978.314.aabb
21:09:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see joeberkovitz, jon, roc, RRSAgent, Alistair, Zakim, chris, olivier, trackbot, F1LT3R, MikeSmith, LeanBack, shepazu, kinetik, quinnirill, foolip, paul_irish_
21:09:48 <Zakim> -??P7
21:09:53 <shepazu> Zakim, room for 12?
21:09:54 <Zakim> ok, shepazu; conference Team_(audio)21:09Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 2209Z
21:10:06 <Zakim> -??P11
21:10:07 <Zakim> - +1.650.253.aaaa
21:10:09 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
21:10:09 <olivier> [meeting reconvened on another teleconference port]
21:10:09 <Zakim> - +1.978.314.aabb
21:10:10 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
21:10:12 <roc> er
21:10:14 <roc> what was the number?
21:10:21 <shepazu> zakim, code?
21:10:21 <Zakim> the conference code is 28346 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), shepazu
21:10:24 <shepazu> oops
21:10:35 <olivier> zakim, this is conf1
21:10:35 <Zakim> olivier, this was RWC_Audio()4:00PM
21:10:36 <Zakim> ok, olivier; that matches Team_(audio)21:09Z
21:10:37 <Zakim> + +1.978.314.aaaa
21:10:53 <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aabb
21:11:05 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
21:11:50 <Zakim> +??P9
21:11:52 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
21:11:59 <Zakim> +??P8
21:12:14 <quinnirill> Zakim: +??P8 is me
21:12:26 <quinnirill> zakim, +??P8 is me
21:12:26 <Zakim> sorry, quinnirill, I do not recognize a party named '+??P8'
21:12:31 <quinnirill> zakim, ??P8 is me
21:12:31 <Zakim> +quinnirill; got it
21:13:11 <joeberkovitz> zakim: 1.978.314.aaaa is me
21:13:16 <shepazu> Zakim, who's here?
21:13:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], +1.978.314.aaaa, +1.650.253.aabb, Doug_Schepers, ??P9, [IPcaller.a], quinnirill
21:13:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see joeberkovitz, jon, roc, RRSAgent, Alistair, Zakim, chris, olivier, trackbot, F1LT3R, MikeSmith, LeanBack, shepazu, kinetik, quinnirill, foolip, paul_irish_
21:13:24 <olivier> zakim, ??p9 is  me
21:13:24 <Zakim> +olivier; got it
21:13:44 <olivier> zakim, code?
21:13:44 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), olivier
21:13:47 <joeberkovitz> zakim, 1.978.314.aaaa is me
21:13:47 <Zakim> sorry, joeberkovitz, I do not recognize a party named '1.978.314.aaaa'
21:14:00 <Zakim> +??P1
21:14:04 <joeberkovitz> zakim: +1.978.314.aaaa is me
21:14:16 <shepazu> Zakim, who's here?
21:14:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], +1.978.314.aaaa, +1.650.253.aabb, Doug_Schepers, olivier, [IPcaller.a], quinnirill, ??P1
21:14:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see joeberkovitz, jon, roc, RRSAgent, Alistair, Zakim, chris, olivier, trackbot, F1LT3R, MikeSmith, LeanBack, shepazu, kinetik, quinnirill, foolip, paul_irish_
21:14:39 <shepazu> Zakim, aaaa is chris 
21:14:39 <Zakim> +chris; got it
21:14:59 <olivier> zakim, chris is joe
21:14:59 <Zakim> +joe; got it
21:15:03 <shepazu> Zakim, chris is joeberkovitz 
21:15:03 <Zakim> sorry, shepazu, I do not recognize a party named 'chris'
21:15:03 <olivier> zakim, aabb is chris
21:15:05 <Zakim> +chris; got it
21:15:52 <olivier> joe: will do a bulk transfer of known de facto requirements of our (music) world onto this document
21:16:02 <olivier> … will drag in some aspects of UC6
21:16:27 <olivier> … may end up talking about envelopes, samples etc in UC5
21:16:29 <olivier> q+
21:17:50 <olivier> Olivier: I created the UC skeleton arbitrarily, we may end up merging some
21:17:59 <olivier> … mostly wanting to see if any is missing
21:18:10 <olivier> Al: is accessibility a use case?
21:18:21 <olivier> Chris: think that's a cross-UC requirement
21:18:27 <olivier> ???: how about visualisation
21:18:39 <olivier> … sound, music visualisation
21:19:10 <olivier> Doug: song recognition (a la Shazam, etc)
21:19:21 <olivier> … could that be done?
21:19:32 <olivier> Chris: mostly happens on the server side
21:19:34 <olivier> q+
21:19:53 <olivier> Al: interesting is the question of microphone input
21:20:17 <olivier> ACTION: Doug to find status of microphone input work
21:20:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-10 - Find status of microphone input work [on Doug Schepers - due 2012-01-16].
21:20:38 <olivier> Chris: I actually don't like "microphone" input, can be any kind of line input
21:21:27 <olivier> Doug: other potential UC - was wondering about background sound
21:21:34 <olivier> Chris: like a <bgsound> tag?
21:22:17 <olivier> q+ to ask about interaction with <audio> element
21:23:04 <olivier> Doug: was wondering if media context for a given tab has to be the same as the dom context. What if sound continued from one page to another
21:23:15 <olivier> … without having to reload all the resources
21:23:29 <olivier> Chris: no idea how that would work re- security or implementation
21:23:43 <olivier> … there is a document associated with the script execution context
21:24:02 <olivier> Al: LocalStorage is shared
21:24:13 <olivier> ack doug
21:24:16 <olivier> ack shep
21:24:16 <Zakim> shepazu, you wanted to ask a strange use-case question
21:24:30 <olivier> Doug: sound effects for clicking a button?
21:24:38 <olivier> … UI sounds
21:25:58 <olivier> Olivier: somehow already included in the game UC, but could add one 
21:26:17 <olivier> Chris: it's interesting as a UC in itself - interaction with CSS 
21:26:51 <olivier> Matthew: can we combine UC3 (mixing) and UC6 (playing virtual instruments)
21:27:05 <olivier> Chris: may be useful to keep them separate - high level vs low level
21:28:34 <olivier> Suggested: change UC3 to  "production tool" instead of "mixing tool"
21:29:26 <joeberkovitz> olivier: i was the speaker at 16:26 and 16:27
21:32:35 <olivier> Al: would like to know who's going to be working on which for the week to come
21:32:45 <olivier> Joe: will take 5, probably going into 6
21:33:46 <olivier> Chris: can take on 3, maybe not this week
21:33:54 <olivier> Al: can look into visualisation
21:34:49 <olivier> Al: should we give ourselves 2 weeks?
21:34:59 <olivier> Olivier: sounds reasonable, the earlier the better
21:37:12 <olivier> Chris: speaking of UC1 - anyone familiar with chat in 2nd life? seems like a fairly sophisticated example
21:37:19 <olivier> … something we'd want to replicate in HTML
21:37:40 <olivier> Joe: how do you abstract that? 
21:37:51 <olivier> Chris: 3D world where voices are spatialized
21:38:16 <olivier> … how to interact with e.g webgl
21:38:24 <olivier> zakim, next
21:38:24 <Zakim> I don't understand 'next', olivier
21:38:29 <olivier> zakim, next agendum
21:38:29 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, olivier
21:38:33 <olivier> q?
21:38:35 <olivier> q-
21:38:39 <olivier> zakim, next agendum
21:38:39 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Latency" taken up [from olivier]
21:40:33 <olivier> Olivier: was wondering if people have requirements for latency, and ideas about testability
21:40:56 <olivier> Chris: it is tricky to test, you could create some kind of mechanical rig (very complex to test)
21:41:18 <olivier> … really hard to test, but it is really important (e.g in games)
21:41:40 <olivier> … keypress to sound latency in games is going to be really important, equivalent to frame-rate with graphics
21:42:00 <olivier> … if we want to take on media and game applications into the web, latency is a key question
21:42:18 <olivier> Al: this issue crosses in to how many sounds you can play at once
21:42:27 <olivier> … (and drop rate)
21:42:38 <olivier> … agree with Chris that we need something in our requirements
21:42:42 <olivier> … ditto for music
21:43:23 <shepazu> q+
21:43:24 <olivier> Chris: hard to achieve a hard latency limit. Maybe have some guidance
21:43:29 <olivier> … can be informative
21:44:39 <joeberkovitz> q+
21:44:52 <olivier> Chris: in smartphone world for instance there is a big hardware discrepancy in Android phones, for example
21:44:57 <olivier> ack shepazu
21:45:04 <Alistair> q+
21:45:10 <olivier> Doug: traditionally steer clear of performance stuff at w3c
21:45:27 <olivier> … it's not usually a question of conformance
21:45:35 <olivier> q+
21:45:44 <olivier> doug: we should optimise in the spec as soon as possible
21:46:14 <olivier> Chris: relevant to the discussion of js only versus natively
21:46:49 <olivier> … analogy with CSS 3D animations
21:47:06 <olivier> … expectation that they will be smooth, and that's where implementations compete
21:47:15 <olivier> … and no mention of frame rate in the spec
21:47:24 <olivier> doug: could be, down the road if it became an issue
21:48:45 <olivier> Chris: continuing on the analogy, there is nothing in CSS 3D animation impeding making it smooth / hardware accelerated
21:49:23 <olivier> doug: [notes he's looking for hardware manufacturers to join in and help us spec things that can be accelerated easily/well]
21:49:41 <olivier> ack joe
21:50:24 <olivier> Joe: possible to tolerate quite a high level of latency
21:50:32 <olivier> … but it's important to know what the latency 
21:50:42 <olivier> … especially to coordinate with visual delivery
21:50:52 <olivier> … can't coordinate if you don't know the delay
21:51:15 <olivier> … a requirement out of UC5 will certainly be to know what the latency is
21:52:34 <olivier> Chris: agreed
21:52:55 <olivier> q-
21:53:54 <olivier> Joe: in our flash application we ask for a couple hundred milliseconds, which would be terrible for a game
21:54:13 <olivier> Chris: 20, 30 or 50ms for a game would be acceptable, depending on platform
21:54:16 <olivier> ack al
21:54:40 <olivier> Al: wanted to note there will be room for competition in implementation
21:54:40 <Alistair> A conforming specification MUST be able to play pre-loaded sounds back at faster than a rate of 'x' milliseconds from the time the JavaScript code was executed, until the time that sound is heard through the speakers: where the audio path is not running through any external sound devices and the browser is using the default sound driver provided by the operating system.
21:54:53 <shepazu> q+
21:55:58 <olivier> Al: asking for opinions about that blurb
21:56:07 <olivier> Chris: that would be setting a hard limit
21:56:50 <olivier> … was quoted earlier as saying 50ms would be acceptable… 10ms is better!
21:57:00 <olivier> … platforms are getting better
21:57:18 <olivier> … for rhythm based games you really do want better than 20ms 
21:57:32 <olivier> Al: around 30ms seems to be threshold 
21:57:42 <olivier> Chris: jitter impacts as well
21:58:31 <olivier> …you will feel the 30ms if the jitter is high
21:58:44 <olivier> doug: consistency sometimes more important than latency
21:58:57 <olivier> al: and probably harder to achieve than low latency
21:59:02 <olivier> chris: agrees
21:59:26 <olivier> q+ to suggest "design principle"
22:00:11 <olivier> Joe: proposal to try to put in what the requirements should be for jitter and latency
22:00:25 <olivier> … and then survey and see if they deserve a special place in the spec
22:00:43 <olivier> doug: another possible criteria 
22:01:14 <olivier> doug: need to think about what criteria we are going to be judging what we put in the spec
22:03:53 <olivier> olivier: would it make sense to have a list of design principles such as hardware acceleration capability, low latency and jitter, consistency of interfaces, etc
22:04:11 <olivier> chris: my goal is to achieve similar level of performance as a native app
22:05:52 <olivier> olivier: not sure we can achieve same level of performance as pro software on desktop, but agree with goal in general
22:06:13 <olivier> Joe: we have flash apps/games as a benchmark
22:07:16 <olivier> chris: will vary between platforms 
22:07:26 <olivier> … for games we can get there
22:07:34 <olivier> … for digital audio workstations, will be tricky
22:07:40 <olivier> [general agreement]
22:08:00 <olivier> q?
22:08:05 <olivier> q-
22:08:06 <olivier> q-
22:08:12 <olivier> zakim, take up next agendum
22:08:12 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, olivier
22:08:19 <olivier> q- shepazu
22:08:29 <olivier> zakim, take up next agendum
22:08:29 <Zakim> agendum 3. "f2f" taken up [from olivier]
22:10:07 <olivier> ACTION: olivier to send details of f2f logistics
22:10:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-11 - Send details of f2f logistics [on Olivier Thereaux - due 2012-01-16].
22:10:26 <olivier> Olivier: invite all to discuss ideas for f2f agenda on the mailing-list
22:10:31 <olivier> [adjourned]
22:10:32 <Zakim> -??P1
22:10:33 <Zakim> -joe
22:10:33 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
22:10:34 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
22:10:34 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
22:10:35 <Zakim> -chris
22:10:36 <Zakim> -quinnirill
22:10:38 <Zakim> -olivier
22:10:40 <Zakim> Team_(audio)21:09Z has ended
22:10:41 <Zakim> Attendees were [IPcaller], +1.978.314.aaaa, +1.650.253.aabb, Doug_Schepers, quinnirill, olivier, joe, chris
22:10:55 <olivier> ACTION: joe to work on Use Case scenario 5
22:10:55 <trackbot> Created ACTION-12 - Work on Use Case scenario 5 [on Joe Berkovitz - due 2012-01-16].
22:11:08 <olivier> ACTION: olivier to copy Use Case scenario 1 from RTC document
22:11:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-13 - Copy Use Case scenario 1 from RTC document [on Olivier Thereaux - due 2012-01-16].
22:11:32 <olivier> Action: Alistair to work on Use Case scenario for visualisation
22:11:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-14 - Work on Use Case scenario for visualisation [on Alistair MacDonald - due 2012-01-16].
22:12:06 <olivier> Action: ChrisR to work on Use Case Scenario 3 (music production)
22:12:06 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - ChrisR
22:12:19 <olivier> Action: crogers to work on Use Case Scenario 3 (music production)
22:12:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Work on Use Case Scenario 3 (music production) [on Chris Rogers - due 2012-01-16].
22:12:38 <olivier> rrsagent, make minutes
22:12:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/09-audio-minutes.html olivier
22:14:20 <roc> how do you get on the speaker queue?
22:14:33 <olivier> zakim, bye
22:14:33 <Zakim> Zakim has left #audio
22:14:40 <olivier> you write "q+" on irc
22:14:46 <olivier> or "q+ to ask about blah blah"
22:14:52 <olivier> let me find the doc for you
22:14:53 <roc> ah ok
22:14:55 <roc> thanks
22:15:29 <olivier> http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html#addressing
22:15:56 <olivier> rrsagent, bye
22:15:56 <RRSAgent> I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/01/09-audio-actions.rdf :
22:15:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Doug to find status of microphone input work [1]
22:15:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/01/09-audio-irc#T21-20-17
22:15:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: olivier to send details of f2f logistics [2]
22:15:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/01/09-audio-irc#T22-10-07
22:15:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: joe to work on Use Case scenario 5 [3]
22:15:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/01/09-audio-irc#T22-10-55
22:15:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: olivier to copy Use Case scenario 1 from RTC document [4]
22:15:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/01/09-audio-irc#T22-11-08
22:15:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Alistair to work on Use Case scenario for visualisation [5]
22:15:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/01/09-audio-irc#T22-11-32
22:15:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ChrisR to work on Use Case Scenario 3 (music production) [6]
22:15:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/01/09-audio-irc#T22-12-06
22:15:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: crogers to work on Use Case Scenario 3 (music production) [7]
22:15:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/01/09-audio-irc#T22-12-19