IRC log of prov on 2012-01-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:38:17 [RRSAgent]
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15:38:17 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:38:19 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:38:19 [Zakim]
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15:38:21 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
15:38:21 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:38:21 [Luc]
Zakim, this will be PROV
15:38:22 [trackbot]
Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
15:38:22 [trackbot]
Date: 05 January 2012
15:38:22 [Zakim]
ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 22 minutes
15:38:36 [GK1]
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15:38:38 [Luc]
15:39:00 [Luc]
Chair: Luc Moreau
15:39:02 [Luc]
Scribe: ???
15:39:20 [Luc]
rrsagent, make logs public
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15:53:38 [Zakim]
SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
15:53:45 [Zakim]
15:54:01 [pgroth]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:54:01 [Zakim]
+pgroth; got it
15:55:28 [Zakim]
15:55:55 [Paolo]
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15:55:59 [Zakim]
+ +44.238.059.aaaa
15:56:12 [Luc]
zakim, +44.238.059.aaaa is me
15:56:12 [Zakim]
+Luc; got it
15:56:17 [GK]
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15:56:23 [Zakim]
15:56:35 [Paolo]
zakim, ??P58 is me
15:56:35 [Zakim]
+Paolo; got it
15:57:00 [Luc]
Regrets: Stain
15:57:57 [Zakim]
15:58:17 [GK]
zakim, ??p7 is me
15:58:19 [Zakim]
+GK; got it
15:58:46 [tlebo]
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15:59:01 [Luc]
scribe: GK
16:00:48 [khalidbelhajjame]
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16:01:41 [Luc]
topic: admin
16:02:22 [Zakim]
16:02:23 [GK]
Previous minutes:
16:02:28 [Zakim]
16:02:30 [khalidbelhajjame]
zakim, ??P9 is me
16:02:33 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:02:35 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
16:02:38 [Zakim]
16:02:39 [JimMcCusker]
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16:02:48 [Zakim]
+ +1.315.330.aabb
16:02:50 [dgarijo]
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16:02:52 [Zakim]
16:02:56 [Zakim]
+khalidbelhajjame; got it
16:02:58 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
16:03:00 [Zakim]
16:03:01 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
16:03:02 [smiles]
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16:03:09 [Luc]
PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the Dec. 22 telecon
16:03:19 [GK]
16:03:20 [Zakim]
16:03:28 [Paolo]
16:03:32 [tlebo]
16:03:32 [dgarijo]
16:03:33 [GK]
+0 (not present)
16:03:36 [smiles]
0 (absent)
16:04:00 [JimMcCusker]
0 ( absent)
16:04:13 [Luc]
APPROVED: the minutes of the Dec. 22 telecon
16:04:17 [jcheney]
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16:04:30 [Zakim]
16:04:37 [jcheney]
zakim, ??p33 is me
16:04:37 [Zakim]
+jcheney; got it
16:04:41 [GK]
Topic: Disseminating Working Drafts
16:05:22 [Luc]
16:05:28 [pgroth]
16:05:45 [Luc]
ack pgr
16:06:10 [GK]
Paul: suggest writing up blog post describing how documents sit together...
16:06:34 [smiles]
16:06:48 [Luc]
ack smi
16:06:49 [GK]
Luc: This could be used as initial draft for document of WG deliverables
16:06:53 [Zakim]
16:06:59 [Zakim]
16:07:14 [GK]
Simon: useful for linking to when posting to other mailing lists to solicit feedback.
16:07:41 [GK]
... also useful would be standard few lines that can be referenced.
16:07:56 [GK]
... and direct readers to blog post.
16:08:02 [Luc]
16:08:11 [GK]
Paul: will write this as abstract to blog.
16:08:24 [zednik]
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16:08:29 [Luc]
action: pgroth to write blog overviewing prov-wg documents
16:08:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-50 - Write blog overviewing prov-wg documents [on Paul Groth - due 2012-01-12].
16:08:51 [Zakim]
+ +1.518.633.aacc
16:09:08 [tlebo]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:09:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see pgroth, ??P56, Luc, Paolo, GK, khalidbelhajjame, MacTed (muted), ??P11, +1.315.330.aabb, sandro, [IPcaller], ??P29, jcheney, Yolanda, ??P40, +1.518.633.aacc
16:09:17 [tlebo]
zakim, I am aabb
16:09:17 [Zakim]
+tlebo; got it
16:09:39 [dgarijo]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:09:39 [Zakim]
+dgarijo; got it
16:09:44 [GK]
Luc: description of difference between 1st and 3rd PROV-DM drafts would be helpful, maybe?
16:10:00 [Luc]
action: Luc to write blog explaining diffs between prov-dm wd3 and wd1
16:10:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-51 - Write blog explaining diffs between prov-dm wd3 and wd1 [on Luc Moreau - due 2012-01-12].
16:10:05 [GK]
Paul: suggest Paul does overview, and Luc does difference sum,mary later
16:10:21 [StephenCresswell]
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16:10:26 [GK]
Luc: Has connection TF lined up reviewers?
16:10:32 [JimMcCusker]
16:10:40 [Luc]
ack Jim
16:11:01 [GK]
JimMc: Either Satya or I should engaged OBO(?) community
16:11:11 [Paolo]
16:11:21 [Luc]
ack paolo
16:11:24 [GK]
... OBO = Open Bio Ontologies
16:11:45 [GK]
Paolo: meeting on provenance ... (missed details)
16:11:51 [JimMcCusker]
16:11:56 [tlebo]
@paolo, what meeting?
16:12:06 [satya]
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16:12:25 [GK]
meeting is Dagshtul seminar at end february
16:12:50 [pgroth]
I thought I replied james?
16:12:56 [pgroth]
anyway, offline :-)
16:13:03 [Luc]
you did, and I did too ;-)
16:13:18 [pgroth]
16:13:19 [GK]
jcheney: still planning schedule for meeting.
16:13:51 [GK]
Luc: I was focusing on dissemination in short term - next couple of weeks.
16:14:11 [pgroth]
16:14:22 [Paolo]
16:14:34 [GK]
Luc: can we repeat blog exercise similar to Paul's simple example? Any takers?
16:14:53 [Luc]
16:14:57 [GK]
... more small examples to promote use and purpose of prov-o
16:15:11 [Luc]
16:15:23 [Luc]
ack pg
16:15:50 [GK]
Paul: we have public provenance mailing list - can we get more people to subscribe?
16:15:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.760.705.aadd
16:16:05 [tlebo]
q+ to ask if we should/can make an announce list?
16:16:24 [Zakim]
- +1.760.705.aadd
16:16:29 [pgroth]
that's this
16:16:55 [GK]
Tim: can we have an announcement list
16:17:10 [GK]
??: agree, and also a developers list?
16:17:28 [tlebo]
zednik ^^
16:18:40 [Zakim]
+ +1.760.705.aaee
16:18:56 [GK]
Sandro: have WG, public and dev as common pattern (?). Sometimes, dev list is pretty much unused.
16:19:36 [sandro]
checking ---- exists. (and prov-wg and prog-comments)
16:19:36 [dgarijo]
+1 to that, although we started already with the best practices..
16:19:48 [GK]
Luc: back to asking the prov-o team about blogging examples
16:20:59 [GK]
me: blogs also work as web pages which are easily linked to, tweeted, etc.
16:21:03 [satya]
Paul, +1
16:21:26 [GK]
Luc: asks sandro if we can create an announce mailing list
16:21:55 [GK]
Sandro: we can, but recommend against unless other public list gets too busy.
16:22:11 [pgroth]
16:22:31 [pgroth]
ack pgroth
16:22:49 [tlebo]
+1 public-prov
16:22:49 [GK]
Sandro: public-prov (not public-prov-wg) could be used for announcements
16:22:58 [tlebo]
(didn't realize we dump onto public-prov-wg)
16:23:12 [GK]
Luc: can we also have a developer mailing list?
16:24:07 [satya]
16:24:19 [GK]
Sandro: I'll create a dev list very soon
16:24:24 [tlebo]
I'll consider blogging
16:24:27 [Luc]
ack tle
16:24:27 [Zakim]
tlebo, you wanted to ask if we should/can make an announce list?
16:24:28 [tlebo]
16:24:35 [Zakim]
- +1.760.705.aaee
16:24:46 [GK]
tlebo: I'll consider blogging, would prefer to focus on documents
16:24:52 [Luc]
ack sat
16:24:59 [sandro]
16:25:33 [JimMcCusker]
16:25:36 [satya]
sorry lost audio
16:26:05 [Luc]
ack san
16:26:24 [GK]
sandro: public-prov-dev, anyone can post, or only subscribers?
16:26:35 [Luc]
ack jim
16:26:44 [GK]
GK: if spam not a problem, suggest open
16:27:09 [GK]
Sandro: I'll make it open. List now exists.
16:27:13 [sandro] created
16:27:19 [dgarijo]
so I guess this is the list where we'll move our prov-o discussions.
16:27:32 [GK]
Topic: Plan for Second Working Drafts (continued)
16:28:31 [GK]
Simon: primer - 1st PWD should be out soon. Hopefully next week.
16:28:44 [GK]
... need to ensure compatibility with other documents.
16:29:02 [GK]
... aim to have improved version by F2F meeting
16:29:22 [Zakim]
+ +1.760.705.aaff
16:29:34 [GK]
... longer term, next release 6 months with everything up to date, and better content quality
16:30:05 [GK]
... accessible to wide audience, libraries, bloggers, semantic web, etc. can use to get started
16:30:42 [GK]
... be clear what prov-dm means ontologically, how to integrate domain specific with prov-dm
16:31:31 [Luc]
Can you confirm 6 months? See
16:31:35 [Luc]
16:31:39 [GK]
Yolanda: have lots of comments about assertions and derivations: need to make distinction clear in primer.
16:32:27 [Luc]
16:32:32 [GK]
GK: how do assertions and derivations get captured in RDF? I don't see it.
16:33:07 [Luc]
16:33:19 [GK]
Yolanda: need to explain what is meant by these terms on documents.
16:33:21 [satya]
@Simon, prov-o describes what prov-dm means ontologically - did you mean something in addition to prov-o?
16:33:51 [GK]
Luc: 6 months is a long time to next release.
16:34:20 [GK]
... also W3C has "3 month rule" for updates to active documents.
16:34:52 [GK]
Simon: our long term aims were on a 6 month period, but we can make interime releases.
16:35:18 [sandro]
three month rule, fyi:
16:35:26 [GK]
Luc: could you please identify (offline) date for next working draft?
16:35:27 [Zakim]
- +1.760.705.aaff
16:35:39 [GK]
Simon: OK. Maybe March/April?
16:35:57 [Luc]
16:36:12 [GK]
Luc: Prov-O - what are your plans?
16:36:20 [Zakim]
+ +1.760.705.aagg
16:36:46 [GK]
Khalid: need to align prov-o with current prov-dm, other topics not yet considered...
16:37:02 [GK]
... also have not determined next release date
16:37:33 [GK]
... Stephan will try to identify potential users from those identified by connections TF
16:37:53 [GK]
Luc: can you please come back with a planned release date.
16:37:56 [Luc]
16:37:59 [dgarijo]
we finished half of the list, so hopefully in a couple of telecons we're done with the alignement.
16:38:09 [Zakim]
16:38:23 [tlebo]
16:38:24 [pgroth]
can't hear you satya
16:38:26 [dgarijo]
@GK Satya
16:38:47 [pgroth]
16:38:51 [khalidbelhajjame]
we can hear you now
16:39:01 [Luc]
the three month rule: a new draft of each active technical report at least once every three months
16:39:03 [Paolo]
@GK satya
16:39:28 [satya]
We plan to release next pwd by Feb - given the three month rule
16:40:07 [satya]
and a major update before 2nd F2F
16:40:27 [GK]
Luc: apart from 3 month rule, would be nice to have stable document by F2F meeting.
16:40:40 [GK]
... doesn't need to be formally released.
16:40:57 [Luc]
16:40:58 [GK]
Khalid: should be fairly closely aligned by F2F meeting
16:41:08 [satya]
we can discuss this during our call also next Monday
16:41:13 [GK]
Topic: prov-dm
16:41:17 [satya]
sure, I was planning to initiate release process by end of Jan/first week of Feb
16:41:20 [Zakim]
- +1.760.705.aagg
16:41:39 [Luc]
@satya, it looks good
16:41:39 [GK]
Paolo: "complemetOf" issue is reaching convergence.
16:41:47 [Paolo]
16:41:58 [GK]
New next is (at link above)
16:42:29 [GK]
q+ to say I still need to review the actual text, but agree with the direction of discussions
16:43:07 [Zakim]
+ +1.760.705.aahh
16:43:08 [GK]
ThPaolo: the term "compelentOf" is still used, we need to formally agree new terms
16:43:34 [Paolo]
16:43:45 [GK]
paolo: collections, has been substantially simplified
16:44:13 [GK]
... have long response from Stian to work though, but we do seem to be converging
16:44:27 [GK]
... hope to finish this successfully (in next week?)
16:44:49 [tlebo]
+q to ask about global versus local naming in "complementOf" section and rest of document.
16:45:03 [GK]
... issue about whether collections actually belong - discussion on list, along with discussion of what is domain specific.
16:45:48 [tlebo]
+1 to how the new specializationOf section looks
16:46:06 [Luc]
16:46:08 [Luc]
ack gk
16:46:08 [Zakim]
GK, you wanted to say I still need to review the actual text, but agree with the direction of discussions
16:46:26 [GK]
Tim: specialization section looks great
16:46:46 [Zakim]
- +1.760.705.aahh
16:46:46 [GK]
... have problem with distinction between global and local naming
16:47:15 [GK]
... think this is "very dissonant" (something that needs to be discussed?)
16:47:33 [Zakim]
+ +1.760.705.aaii
16:47:45 [GK]
Luc: there is a specific issue addressing this.
16:49:08 [tlebo]
16:49:45 [GK]
Luc: about vote about new terminology; granularity is too coarse (?)
16:50:17 [Luc]
16:50:26 [GK]
q+ to ask why can't vote on the text as-is, or alternatively vote on choice of terminology, or...
16:50:38 [pgroth]
16:50:48 [satya]
+1, I think we need to discuss over raised issue first
16:50:49 [tlebo]
I'm happy to close any issues that I've raised for complementOf
16:50:50 [Luc]
ack gk
16:50:50 [Zakim]
GK, you wanted to ask why can't vote on the text as-is, or alternatively vote on choice of terminology, or...
16:50:59 [JimMcCusker]
16:51:30 [Luc]
ack pgr
16:51:39 [Zakim]
- +1.760.705.aaii
16:51:47 [pgroth]
ack pgroth
16:51:49 [GK]
GK: only need to vote if there is disagreement
16:52:04 [GK]
paul: issue system seems to work well
16:52:56 [GK]
jimMc: issue of one entity record for each identifier. And if identifier is URI, can't enforce scoping of interpretation.
16:53:00 [Luc]
16:53:03 [Luc]
ack jim
16:53:22 [GK]
Topic: Prov-o/Prov-dm
16:53:48 [Luc]
closing issues Closed pending review: ISSUE-50: Satya ISSUE-57: Graham ISSUE-100: Satya ISSUE-105: Satya ISSUE-113: Khalid ISSUE-121: Satya ISSUE-124: Satya ISSUE-125: Satya ISSUE-126: Satya ISSUE-127: Satya ISSUE-176: Tim ISSUE-178: Tim ISSUE-191: Satya ISSUE-201: Satya To be answered: ISSUE-185: Satya ISSUE-186: Satya ISSUE-187: Satya ISSUE-188: Satya ISSUE-189: Satya ISSUE-192: Satya ISSUE-193: Satya ISSUE-200: Satya [edit]
16:53:54 [Zakim]
+ +1.760.705.aajj
16:54:02 [GK]
Luc: aiming for release by end of month
16:54:04 [Luc]
16:54:13 [GK]
Topic: prov-dm (still - closing issues)
16:54:26 [satya]
@jimMc, +1
16:55:09 [Luc]
16:55:20 [tlebo]
+1 I'll review my issues
16:55:21 [GK]
Luc: need people to raised issues to respond to confirm issues can be closed. Would be better to close old issues and open new ones.
16:55:25 [satya]
@Luc, sure will try to review and respond asap the outstanding issues
16:56:17 [GK]
GK: happy to close issue 57, will raise new if I have problem with new text
16:56:32 [tlebo]
16:56:40 [GK]
Topic: Prov-o/Prov-dm
16:56:51 [GK]
Discussion of accounts
16:58:11 [Zakim]
- +1.760.705.aajj
16:58:20 [GK]
Tim: proposing that account assertions are "RDF abstract graph" - set of triples independent of location. Tryimng to core construct of activity to associate asserter with account graph. Then addressing association of abstract graph with where it rests.
16:59:24 [GK]
... triple store organization of named graphs is "chaotic" - can re-use service description vocabulary.
16:59:47 [GK]
16:59:56 [pgroth]
16:59:59 [Luc]
ack GK
17:00:07 [dgarijo]
17:00:59 [Luc]
ack pg
17:01:38 [GK]
GK: my comments (on list) really reeferring to *assertion* of an account, rather than problem of account being an "abstract graph".
17:01:41 [pgroth]
ack pgroth
17:02:08 [GK]
Paul: qustion about tuyping of graph (missed details of response)
17:02:20 [tlebo]
+1 to confusion over Activyt versus Entity - partiatlly b/c I'm not sure yet :-)
17:02:32 [GK]
Daniel: account as activity or entity? Gets confusing.
17:03:00 [GK]
... distinguishes between account as wrapper, and activity that creates that wrapper.
17:03:27 [Luc]
17:03:31 [Luc]
ack dga
17:04:14 [GK]
Tim: yes, there is some confusion, indecision yet. Details still to be worked out (wasAtributedTo property mentioned?)
17:04:48 [GK]
Tim: still want to quality association with some activity (e.g. similar to derivedfrom?)
17:04:57 [Luc]
17:05:48 [GK]
Luc: have raised issue of mixing accounts and entities.
17:05:54 [dgarijo]
@Tim: anyway, this is the kind of discussion we needed to make this work. Thanks!
17:06:53 [GK]
17:07:29 [GK]
q+ to ask about what "abstract graph" is used to mean
17:07:44 [Luc]
ack gk
17:07:44 [Zakim]
GK, you wanted to ask about what "abstract graph" is used to mean
17:07:55 [Zakim]
17:08:01 [Luc]
17:08:45 [GK]
Tim: terms we have are graph container, RDF abstract graph, and ...
17:09:21 [Luc]
17:09:34 [GK]
SPARQL service description associates a graph with a name
17:09:53 [Luc]
17:10:17 [GK]
(sorry, my audio got interrupted)
17:10:46 [pgroth]
thanks tim!
17:10:56 [tlebo]
thanks for feedback!
17:11:06 [dgarijo]
17:11:18 [GK]
Luc: wrapping up
17:11:21 [Zakim]
17:11:21 [GK]
17:11:22 [Zakim]
17:11:23 [Zakim]
17:11:27 [Zakim]
17:11:29 [Zakim]
17:11:31 [Zakim]
17:11:35 [Zakim]
17:11:39 [Zakim]
17:11:41 [Zakim]
17:11:43 [Zakim]
17:11:45 [Zakim]
17:11:47 [Zakim]
- +1.518.633.aacc
17:12:43 [Zakim]
17:35:01 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, ??P56, in SW_(PROV)11:00AM
17:35:05 [Zakim]
SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended
17:35:07 [Zakim]
Attendees were pgroth, Luc, Paolo, GK, +1.315.330.aabb, sandro, khalidbelhajjame, MacTed, jcheney, Yolanda, +1.518.633.aacc, tlebo, dgarijo, +1.760.705.aadd, +1.760.705.aaee,
17:35:10 [Zakim]
... +1.760.705.aaff, +1.760.705.aagg, +1.760.705.aahh, +1.760.705.aaii, +1.760.705.aajj
17:47:45 [GK]
GK has left #prov
19:17:43 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #prov