Chatlog 2013-04-03

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14:14:14 <yvesr> Guest: Steve (SteveH) Harris
14:14:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:14:14 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/04/03-rdf-wg-irc
14:14:16 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:14:16 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:14:18 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
14:14:18 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 46 minutes
14:14:19 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:14:19 <trackbot> Date: 03 April 2013
14:15:02 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: RDF WG -- current agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.04.03
14:25:54 <ivan> Regrets: Guus, DavidW, AndyS
14:42:55 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
14:52:38 <gavinc> Ugh, it seems my update today is: No I haven't had time to send the Grant requests or setup something to deploy to 2013/turtle-testsuite/
14:57:55 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
14:58:02 <Zakim> +GavinC
14:58:58 <Zakim> +Sandro
14:59:20 <Zakim> +Ivan
14:59:28 <ivan> Chair: Ivan
14:59:29 <Zakim> +??P4
14:59:47 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:00 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:15 <yvesr> Zakim: ??P4 is me
15:00:17 <Zakim> +cgreer
15:00:23 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P4 is me
15:00:23 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
15:00:26 <cgreer> cgreer has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:42 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:00:50 <yvesr> ivan, sorry, a bit slow today :)
15:00:52 <Zakim> + +1.908.251.aaaa
15:00:52 <Zakim> +??P8
15:00:56 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:00:56 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it
15:00:57 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P8
15:00:58 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
15:00:58 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
15:00:58 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
15:01:02 <pfps> zakim, aaaa is me
15:01:02 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
15:01:06 <Zakim> +??P13
15:01:16 <manu> zakim, I am ??P13
15:01:16 <Zakim> +manu; got it
15:01:17 <Zakim> +??P14
15:01:26 <AZ> Zakim, ??P14 is me
15:01:26 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
15:01:30 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
15:01:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see GavinC, Sandro, Ivan, yvesr, cgreer, TallTed (muted), pfps, gkellogg, manu, AZ
15:01:32 <Zakim> On IRC I see cgreer, pfps, AZ, Guus, Zakim, RRSAgent, TallTed, SteveH, ivan, Arnaud, gavinc, gkellogg, manu, yvesr, ericP, manu1, davidwood, mischat, sandro, trackbot
15:02:17 <Zakim> +??P20
15:02:19 <ericP> waiting for HCLS call to finish
15:02:24 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P20 is me
15:02:25 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
15:03:53 <ivan> zakim, pick a victim
15:03:53 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose SteveH
15:04:06 <SteveH> sorry, I'm not on a speakerphone, so typing is not easy
15:04:17 <ivan> zakim, pick a victim
15:04:17 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose GavinC
15:04:26 <ivan> zakim, pick a victim
15:04:26 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose yvesr
15:04:31 <yvesr> yep
15:04:36 <yvesr> scribe: yvesr
15:04:45 <Zakim> +cygri
15:04:56 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdf-wg
15:05:00 <pfps> can we start up the scribe list again?  it is much easier to scribe if one knows in advance
15:05:01 <yvesr> ivan: We are back in schedule for the TZ, until October
15:05:28 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2013-03-27 minutes of last meeting
15:05:34 <pfps> minutes are fine
15:05:39 <markus> markus has joined #rdf-wg
15:05:50 <markus> zakim, code?
15:05:50 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), markus
15:06:01 <Zakim> +??P25
15:06:10 <yvesr> RESOLVED: Minutes from the 2013-03-27 are accepted
15:06:25 <markus> zakim, ??P25 is me
15:06:25 <Zakim> +markus; got it
15:06:38 <yvesr> ivan: there are a number of actions to review
15:06:48 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:06:48 <cygri> ACTION-222?
15:06:48 <trackbot> ACTION-222 -- Richard Cyganiak to work with PatH to make sure there is no duplicated content between RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics -- due 2013-01-23 -- OPEN
15:06:48 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/222
15:06:52 <yvesr> ivan: 221 and 222 are the same action, on cygri and path
15:07:15 <Zakim> +Souri
15:07:20 <yvesr> cygri: this is not something that needs to be addressed at this point
15:07:24 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:07:28 <Zakim> +Guus_Schreiber
15:07:29 <yvesr> ... i'd rather leave it open at the moment
15:07:30 <pfps> In my opinion Concepts and Semantics are not totally aligned, but there are no serious issues.
15:07:51 <cygri> pfps, I agree. Needs a careful review.
15:07:56 <cygri> ACTION-226?
15:07:56 <trackbot> ACTION-226 -- Richard Cyganiak to implement ISSUE-111 resolution -- due 2013-02-13 -- OPEN
15:07:56 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/226
15:08:01 <yvesr> ivan: there is another action on cygri's name - ACTION-226
15:08:12 <cygri> ACTION-227?
15:08:12 <trackbot> ACTION-227 -- Richard Cyganiak to present concrete wording for ISSUE-105 -- due 2013-02-13 -- OPEN
15:08:12 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/227
15:08:23 <yvesr> cygri: ACTION-226 is not done
15:08:29 <Zakim> +zwu2
15:08:37 <yvesr> ... as is ACTION-227
15:08:51 <yvesr> ivan: ACTION-332 was on sandro
15:08:57 <gavinc> Issue is now mine.
15:09:02 <yvesr> sandro: my understanding is that we can close it
15:09:41 <sandro> close action-232
15:09:41 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-232 Learn about the w3c test suite license.
15:10:02 <sandro> action-233?
15:10:02 <trackbot> ACTION-233 -- Gavin Carothers to publish the consolidated test suite -- due 2013-03-06 -- OPEN
15:10:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/233
15:10:16 <yvesr> ivan: is ACTION-233 more than publishing the consolidated test suite?
15:10:17 <tbaker> tbaker has joined #rdf-wg
15:10:29 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:10:33 <yvesr> ivan: we have 3 actions all on the JSON-LD review
15:10:52 <sandro> close action-240
15:10:52 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-240 Review JSON-LD API document.
15:10:54 <yvesr> ivan: i believe 3 have been done
15:10:56 <Zakim> +EricP
15:11:00 <Zakim> +??P32
15:11:20 <pchampin> zakim, ??P32 is me
15:11:20 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
15:11:26 <cygri> ACTION-239?
15:11:26 <trackbot> ACTION-239 -- Richard Cyganiak to review Semantics draft regarding move to FPWD -- due 2013-03-13 -- OPEN
15:11:26 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/239
15:11:26 <sandro> action-241?
15:11:26 <trackbot> ACTION-241 -- Zhe Wu to review JSON-LD API document -- due 2013-03-27 -- OPEN
15:11:27 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/241
15:11:52 <yvesr> close action-239
15:11:52 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-239 Review Semantics draft regarding move to FPWD.
15:12:13 <cgreer> close action-238
15:12:13 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-238 Review the JSON-LD syntax document, after Sandro's review has been taken into account.
15:12:29 <yvesr> action-235?
15:12:29 <trackbot> ACTION-235 -- Antoine Zimmermann to review RDF 1.1 Semantics -- due 2013-03-06 -- CLOSED
15:12:29 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/235
15:12:32 <yvesr> action-236?
15:12:32 <trackbot> ACTION-236 -- Guus Schreiber to put spec of scope bnodes in Concepts on agenda for 6 Mar -- due 2013-03-06 -- CLOSED
15:12:32 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/236
15:12:35 <pfps> zakim, mute me
15:12:35 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
15:12:50 <gavinc> Non NON NFC
15:13:00 <gavinc> NFC only IRIs
15:13:19 <yvesr> gavinc: the job was to delete the non-non nfc test from the test suite
15:13:44 <yvesr> gavinc: i added an approval status to all of the tests, make them all approved, and added a rejected column for that one
15:13:55 <gavinc> s/gavinc/ericP
15:14:11 <yvesr> ericP: i expect there will be some pushback
15:14:15 <ivan> close action-246
15:14:15 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-246 Remove #localName_with_PN_CHARS_BASE_character_boundaries.
15:14:24 <ivan> action-245?
15:14:24 <trackbot> ACTION-245 -- Eric Prud'hommeaux to (with Sandro) to copy or proxy Turtletests2013 to http://www.w3.org/2013/Turtletests/..., updating all base or ttl references to http://example/base/ to be http://www.w3.org/2013/Turtletests/ -- due 2013-04-03 -- OPEN
15:14:25 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/245
15:14:28 <yvesr> ... as people need to look up approved tests before running them
15:14:32 <gavinc> That's dependent on me finishing
15:14:52 <yvesr> ericP: has the license issue been sorted?
15:14:55 <yvesr> gavinc: no, not yet
15:15:04 <ivan> action-225?
15:15:04 <trackbot> ACTION-225 -- Eric Prud'hommeaux to update extension request with Turtle publication dates -- due 2013-01-30 -- OPEN
15:15:04 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/225
15:15:30 <ivan> close action-225
15:15:30 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-225 Update extension request with Turtle publication dates.
15:15:39 <yvesr> ericP: it is overtaken by events - it was for the CR publication
15:16:01 <yvesr> ... About ACTION-245, I am still getting comments from the list on tests
15:16:08 <yvesr> ... we made a decision last week to approve the tests
15:16:19 <yvesr> ... some of the corrections I am seeing from the comments list are corrections
15:16:27 <gavinc> We had invalid Test case N-Triples as well
15:16:50 <yvesr> ... escaping, case, etc. - should we normalise what to do with escaped characters?
15:17:04 <yvesr> gavinc: we did resolve that - there is only one way to represent each character in n-triples
15:17:20 <yvesr> ... There are a couple of edge-cases
15:17:39 <yvesr> ... If we get further comments, we'll need to reapprove the test suite
15:18:03 <ivan> Topic: JSON-LD
15:18:04 <yvesr> ivan: next topic is JSON-LD
15:18:22 <yvesr> ... We have 3 reviews, could we get an overview of them?
15:18:32 <yvesr> manu: Markus has been dealing with the comments
15:18:42 <yvesr> ... We do have one thing the RDF WG probably wants to look at
15:18:45 <Zakim> -EricP
15:18:49 <yvesr> markus: most of the feedbacks are editorial
15:18:59 <yvesr> ... sandro replied he's happy with the changes
15:19:08 <yvesr> ... one comment from zwu2 was about the algorithm - they are too long
15:19:14 <yvesr> ... but we decided not to change them
15:19:37 <Zakim> +Philippe
15:19:49 <yvesr> Zakim, who is speaking?
15:20:01 <Zakim> yvesr, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: markus (3%), zwu2 (99%)
15:20:24 <yvesr> zwu2: It would be nice to modularise the algorithm description - it is very long
15:20:36 <yvesr> ... I understand it is a big effort, so I am willing to let it pass
15:21:04 <yvesr> manu: We did start out with a fairly modularised way of explaining the algorithm
15:21:28 <yvesr> ... when implementers were reading the spec, they were very confused, as you needed to jump between different points of the spec
15:22:00 <yvesr> ... implementers seem to prefer the non-modularized versions
15:22:03 <gavinc> yay :D
15:22:11 <yvesr> manu: as they are much easiers to read
15:22:48 <yvesr> ... the algorithm are long and verbose for a reason
15:22:57 <yvesr> ... we want to be clear about what they're doing
15:23:07 <yvesr> ivan: I think we can move on with this
15:23:32 <yvesr> markus: the only other issue which hasn't been addressed is the data round-tripping section
15:23:51 <yvesr> ... where we specify how e.g. json true and false are converted to RDF
15:23:59 <sandro> q+ to ask about lists-of-lists
15:24:02 <yvesr> ... sandro raised some concerns about that
15:24:18 <yvesr> ivan: what about the third review from charles?
15:24:35 <yvesr> manu: it was mostly editorial comments
15:24:51 <yvesr> ivan: so we only need to discuss sandro's comment
15:25:08 <ivan> ack sandro
15:25:08 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask about lists-of-lists
15:25:14 <yvesr> markus: yes, i think that's right - we would be OK to go to LC
15:25:44 <sandro> manu: we agreed to add At Risk for the list-of-lists thing
15:25:48 <yvesr> gkellogg: marking the list-of-lists as 'at-risk' but it would cause a bit of a mess
15:26:26 <yvesr> markus: it's worth to say that list-of-lists are supported
15:26:43 <yvesr> ... but there isn't a simple way to express that in short-form in JSON-LD
15:26:57 <yvesr> sandro: I missed the fact you could use first/rest
15:27:07 <yvesr> ... If you can, then I can live with it
15:27:18 <yvesr> ... I am certainly happy with the at-risk solution
15:27:27 <markus> Here's the list of the features at risk: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON-LD_Features_at_Risk
15:27:36 <yvesr> ivan: so the only other issue is the round-tripping?
15:27:41 <yvesr> manu: yes
15:28:09 <yvesr> sandro: I sent this in an email just before the meeting started
15:28:32 <yvesr> ... If you have an RDF graph if you have things like doubles in it, which can be expressed in JSON
15:28:47 <yvesr> ... there are situations where you can export to JSON and back again
15:28:53 <yvesr> ... and not end up with the same graph
15:29:01 <yvesr> ... e.g. when the literal is not in canonical form
15:29:18 <yvesr> ... or when using doubles
15:29:21 <Guus> for the agenda: see my admin message about the 4 FPWDs
15:29:40 <yvesr> ... you could keep it in expanded type in JSON-LD rather than native type
15:29:58 <yvesr> ... which would ensure you end up with the same graph
15:30:04 <manu> q+
15:30:05 <yvesr> ... the question is, do we care?
15:30:14 <ivan> ack manu
15:30:43 <yvesr> manu: the guidance we give in the JSON-LD API spec is that if accuracy of numbers are important, use a string to express them
15:30:59 <yvesr> ... and type it with xsd:double
15:31:15 <yvesr> ... if you use JSON native types, then you will have rounding issues
15:31:39 <gkellogg> that flag is in fromRDF, not for native JSON-LD
15:31:41 <yvesr> ... if the 'use native type' flag is off, then no rounding issues
15:31:48 <ericP> iirc, XML Schema requires preservation of 18 digits on doubles
15:31:51 <TallTed> may need to include something like -- http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms716298%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
15:31:58 <yvesr> ... The other advice we give in the spec is how to express the canonical lexical form
15:32:06 <TallTed> which data types convert cleanly, which have issues such as were just flagged
15:32:08 <yvesr> ... there is an interoperability issue some of us are concerned about
15:32:14 <yvesr> ... captured in the test suite
15:32:30 <gavinc> JSON has interop issues with large numbers ;) It's sadly not a JSON-LD issue
15:32:41 <yvesr> ... The guidance we tell people is that you must use the string format when you convert a string literal with an xsd:double datatype
15:32:42 <sandro> q?
15:33:09 <gavinc> +1 sounds very reasonable!
15:33:12 <TallTed> explicit example is the numeric conversions page, here -- http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms714147%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
15:33:14 <yvesr> manu: Do we want to do something else in the JSON-LD API spec?
15:33:16 <ivan> q?
15:33:41 <gavinc> q+
15:33:44 <yvesr> sandro: I don't like the API flag - I don't think people are going to know how to use them
15:33:52 <yvesr> ... It depends on the data
15:33:56 <yvesr> manu: It depends on the application
15:34:03 <TallTed> q+
15:34:18 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:34:18 <Zakim> TallTed should no longer be muted
15:34:36 <ivan> ack gavinc
15:34:37 <yvesr> manu: We tried to make the documentation very clear around rounding errors introduced by native JSON datatypes
15:34:39 <cygri> castToNativeType?
15:34:52 <yvesr> gavinc: JSON and JS do not specify the exact behavior of numbers
15:35:09 <yvesr> ... they are plenty of incompatible JSON implementations in terms of numbers
15:35:18 <ivan> ack TallTed
15:35:41 <yvesr> TallTed: It would be worth introducing a table of conversions in the spec
15:36:03 <yvesr> ... What are the status messages you get back when errors are introduced?
15:36:23 <yvesr> manu: We would have to make one table per implementation - which would be very hard
15:36:35 <yvesr> s/per implementation/per javascript implementation
15:36:42 <yvesr> gkellogg: it's also all the JSON processors
15:36:42 <sandro> q?
15:36:49 <yvesr> TallTed: so basically JSON doesn't preserve data?
15:36:57 <yvesr> markus: It's just not specified
15:37:04 <gavinc> or python! until you run out of memory bit!
15:37:09 <pchampin> q+
15:37:28 <yvesr> manu: lots of people use JSON to exchange data and it doesn't seem to have caused any issues
15:37:37 <ivan> ack pchampin
15:37:41 <yvesr> pchampin: I see two things about the useNativeDatatype flag
15:37:49 <yvesr> ... the first one is that you may have rounding problems
15:38:04 <yvesr> ... the second one is that even without it, you end up in an interoperability issue
15:38:17 <yvesr> ... it should be said in the specification
15:38:38 <yvesr> ... that round-tripping is not possible in this case
15:38:40 <sandro> q?
15:38:44 <sandro> q+
15:38:46 <manu> q+
15:38:51 <manu> q-
15:38:58 <ivan> ack sandro
15:39:01 <yvesr> pchampin: If you care about round tripping, this flag should be set to off
15:39:07 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
15:39:07 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
15:39:26 <yvesr> sandro: I know JS requires IEEE 24 bits, I didn't realise people implemented JSON at a lower level than JS
15:39:30 <pchampin> pchampin: if I care about round tripping preserving the lexical values of literals, this flag should be set to off
15:39:41 <TallTed> +1 sandro
15:39:49 <yvesr> ... If you care about data integrity - this flag should be set to off
15:40:19 <yvesr> ivan: So if this is closed, where are we exactly wrt JSON-LD to LC?
15:40:29 <yvesr> markus: That's the only remaining change we need to make
15:40:39 <sandro> WebIDL
15:40:47 <yvesr> ivan: the LC shows the design is done
15:41:08 <yvesr> ... Let's discuss that later, but can we plan that next week we vote for LC?
15:41:10 <yvesr> markus: sure
15:41:14 <gkellogg> agreed
15:41:36 <yvesr> ACTION: WG to resolve on LC status on 10/04/2013
15:41:36 <trackbot> Error finding 'WG'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/users>.
15:41:44 <manu> So, we're going to shoot for a LC of JSON-LD and JSON-LD API for April 19th 2013...
15:41:48 <pfps> zakim, unmute me
15:41:48 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted
15:41:56 <ivan> Topic: redefinition of blank nodes
15:41:57 <yvesr> ACTION: davidwood to resolve with WG on LC status of JSON-LD on 10/04/2013
15:41:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-249 - Resolve with WG on LC status of JSON-LD on 10/04/2013 [on David Wood - due 2013-04-10].
15:42:02 <manu> (just to be clear about what the JSON-LD editors and CG are going to shoot for)
15:42:04 <ivan> issue-107?
15:42:04 <trackbot> ISSUE-107 -- Revised definition of blank nodes -- open
15:42:04 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/107
15:42:11 <sandro> ivan, are we going to talk about Guus' report of not publishing as planned?
15:43:13 <yvesr> pfps: I went through both concepts and semantics, they describe the current situation quite well already
15:43:18 <yvesr> ... they only need tiny changes
15:43:47 <yvesr> ... What it doesn't have is an explanation of what the change is
15:43:54 <yvesr> ... It needs to be added to concepts or primer
15:44:38 <yvesr> ivan: It would be good to have an explicit action on cygri and path to check whether it's fine with them
15:45:17 <yvesr> ACTION: cygri to review pfps's proposal on ISSUE-107
15:45:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-250 - Review pfps's proposal on ISSUE-107 [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2013-04-10].
15:45:35 <yvesr> cygri: Happy to take the action, however I don't see how that would close the issue
15:46:46 <yvesr> topic: Update on publications
15:47:15 <yvesr> ivan: The plan is to publish the first public working draft tomorrow
15:47:58 <yvesr> sandro: They need to be using the latest version of respec
15:48:11 <yvesr> pfps: I don't know what exactly is required
15:48:12 <Guus> if Peter can do the links, that would be great
15:48:33 <yvesr> pfps: I can fix up the links, but not sure how to rebase respec
15:49:15 <yvesr> sandro: We shouldn't have a local copy of respec
15:49:24 <Guus> we should point to the new version, the https version
15:49:42 <Guus> i'll unmute myself
15:49:50 <pfps> zakim, unmute me
15:49:50 <Zakim> pfps was not muted, pfps
15:49:51 <Guus> q+
15:49:58 <pfps> zakim, mute me
15:49:58 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
15:50:30 <ivan> ack guus
15:50:44 <yvesr> Guus: We need to point to the new respec version - what I didn't realise is that it's nice for editing, but difficult for publishing
15:51:06 <gavinc> Where is the THE ReSPEC?
15:51:30 <gavinc> https://github.com/darobin/respec ?
15:51:46 <sandro> The right version is: http://www.w3.org/Tools/respec/respec-w3c-common
15:52:03 <markus> here's the ReSpec script to convert to html on the command line: https://github.com/darobin/respec/blob/develop/tools/respec2html.js
15:52:18 <yvesr> gavinc: the XHTML processor for respec uses divs instead of sections, the HTML one uses sections
15:52:51 <gkellogg> We should be using the version in w3c space: https://www.w3.org/Tools/respec/respec-w3c-common
15:53:09 <gkellogg> That's what the EARL report uses
15:53:11 <pfps> someone has to tell me where the references database is
15:53:29 <yvesr> Guus: in our repository i created a draft repository with all the documents
15:53:44 <yvesr> ericP: We need to do the same across all our different specs
15:53:58 <yvesr> s/ericP/sandro
15:54:21 <pfps> OK
15:54:23 <sandro> +1 guus saved-from-respec goes in to pub/<shortname>/Overview.html
15:54:31 <yvesr> Guus: if pfps fixes the links, I can fix the references
15:54:33 <gavinc> https://www.w3.org/Tools/respec/respec-w3c-common
15:55:02 <yvesr> Guus: I may be able to do it tonight, or next Tuesday
15:55:04 <pfps> I'll work on the links today
15:55:14 <Guus> zakim, mute me
15:55:14 <Zakim> Guus_Schreiber should now be muted
15:55:15 <ivan> Topic: dependecies
15:55:31 <yvesr> s/dependecies/dependencies
15:55:40 <yvesr> ivan: We have a bunch of dependencies when we go to CR
15:55:49 <yvesr> ... JSON-LD depends on the concepts document
15:56:03 <yvesr> ... It already depends on the not-yet-existing Schema document
15:56:18 <yvesr> ... Concepts on DOM4 and HTML5
15:56:25 <yvesr> s/on/depends on/
15:56:38 <yvesr> ... We have the WebID dependency on the JSON-LD API
15:56:46 <ericP> q+ to ask if we can refer but shortname to our internal specs 1 version behind the doc being published
15:56:58 <yvesr> ... Hopefully we can avoid putting documents on hold because of that
15:57:03 <ivan> ack ericP
15:57:04 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask if we can refer but shortname to our internal specs 1 version behind the doc being published
15:57:05 <cygri> q+
15:57:06 <pfps> were are is our respec publications DB?
15:57:13 <yvesr> ericP: What we try to avoid is to point to first drafts, which can change
15:57:26 <yvesr> ... But we can point to version of documents that are one step behind us
15:57:38 <yvesr> ivan: But HTML5 won't become a PR before 2014
15:57:55 <yvesr> ... So if we depend on it, we can't go to REC with RDF Concepts before then
15:58:17 <ivan> ack cygri
15:58:17 <yvesr> ivan: JSON-LD would like to go to REC quickly, and we might have to wait for Concepts before we do that
15:58:36 <yvesr> cygri: About the DOM4 dependency, there are a couple of options
15:58:55 <yvesr> ... When we moved the DOM3 ref to DOM4, we could change that back
15:58:56 <gavinc> DOM3 is WRONG :P
15:59:00 <yvesr> ... And still refer to DOM3
15:59:13 <yvesr> ... We might have to do some explanation there
15:59:35 <yvesr> ... When we reference the HTML5 parsing algorithm, we might need to describe the output in terms of DOM3
15:59:41 <yvesr> ... So we might need to be careful
15:59:46 <ericP> q?
15:59:49 <yvesr> ... But that might be the easiest way
16:00:09 <yvesr> gavinc: We can refer to DOM3, but every implementers is going to run into bugs
16:00:24 <yvesr> ericP: Are we confident DOM4 is backward-compatible?
16:00:29 <yvesr> ivan: Nobody knows
16:00:36 <yvesr> ericP: The WG should have a pretty good idea
16:00:42 <gavinc> Reality ;) http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/
16:00:57 <yvesr> ivan: For the time being all the evolution of DOM4 is happening in the WhatWG
16:01:36 <yvesr> ivan: Maybe a possibility is to have a normative ref to DOM3, and a note pointing at DOM4 elsewhere in the doc
16:01:50 <yvesr> ... Not sure how to do that exactly, but there might be some wording that could work
16:02:54 <yvesr> ericP: What's the trick to point people to what they need to read to actually implement it?
16:03:04 <Zakim> -manu
16:03:48 <yvesr> ... If I support HTML literals, I will have to read that spec on the WhatWG
16:04:48 <yvesr> ... We could move that out of the doc, and push them as notes, but no one would really care
16:05:10 <yvesr> ivan: Could we push it in a non-normative section?
16:05:56 <yvesr> ericP: we should really explain what to do with HTML literals - if we don't then it needs to be pushed somewhere else
16:07:14 <yvesr> ... We're saying that the processing of XHTML literals has changed - where is the example data showing what's changed?
16:07:56 <Zakim> -Guus_Schreiber
16:08:36 <yvesr> ACTION: cygri to investigate dependencies in concepts and semantics
16:08:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-251 - Investigate dependencies in concepts and semantics [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2013-04-10].
16:08:47 <cygri> ACTION-251?
16:08:48 <trackbot> ACTION-251 -- Richard Cyganiak to investigate dependencies in concepts and semantics -- due 2013-04-10 -- OPEN
16:08:48 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/251
16:09:06 <yvesr> ivan: Another dependency is WebIDL from JSON-LD
16:09:15 <yvesr> markus: I'll try to figure that out
16:09:23 <cygri> (I changed the description of ACTION-251)
16:09:26 <cygri> ACTION-251?
16:09:26 <trackbot> ACTION-251 -- Richard Cyganiak to investigate dependencies on DOM4 and HTML5 in Concepts -- due 2013-04-10 -- OPEN
16:09:26 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/251
16:09:48 <yvesr> markus: We have to right a couple of tests ourselves to prove the part we're using is stable enough
16:10:02 <yvesr> ... I am working with Robin to address that
16:11:00 <yvesr> ivan: AOB?
16:11:09 <pchampin> q?
16:11:12 <zwu2> bye
16:11:12 <pchampin> q+
16:11:24 <Zakim> -zwu2
16:11:27 <Zakim> -cgreer
16:11:27 <ivan> ack pchampin
16:11:28 <Zakim> -SteveH
16:11:43 <yvesr> pchampin: I was wondering with Turtle being in CR - would it be too late to add a small feature
16:12:02 <markus> profile media type parameter?
16:12:04 <cygri> LDP-WG perhaps would like text/turtle;profile=xxx
16:12:11 <yvesr> gavinc: Would it be possible to add a parameter to the media-type registration
16:12:21 <pchampin> s/gavinc/pchampin/
16:12:41 <gavinc> why do we want profile?
16:12:46 <cygri> q+
16:13:00 <yvesr> pchampin: I raised this question in the LDP WG
16:13:05 <ivan> ack cygri
16:13:38 <yvesr> cygri: The LDP WG is considering whether to define a new media type to Turtle
16:13:40 <pchampin> I agree we don't have time to discuss that today;
16:13:48 <pchampin> I was just asking to know if it was not too late
16:13:56 <gavinc> or just point to LDP thead... clearly
16:13:56 <yvesr> ... Adding a parameter would enable them to avoid that
16:14:06 <pchampin> If it is not, I can send an email as well
16:14:13 <Zakim> -Souri
16:14:22 <Zakim> -AZ
16:14:26 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:14:40 <Zakim> -gkellogg
16:15:27 <yvesr> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:15:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/04/03-rdf-wg-minutes.html yvesr
16:15:38 <yvesr> RRSAgent: make logs public
16:15:53 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/track/issues/57 ?
16:16:08 <Zakim> -yvesr
16:16:58 <sandro> q?
16:18:59 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:19:00 <Zakim> TallTed should no longer be muted
16:20:31 <Zakim> -GavinC
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