Chatlog 2013-01-23

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15:58:40 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:40 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/23-rdf-wg-irc
15:58:47 <davidwood> Zakim, this will be RDF
15:58:47 <Zakim> ok, davidwood, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started
15:59:06 <davidwood> chair: David Wood
15:59:10 <cygri> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.01.23
15:59:20 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:59:27 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
15:59:27 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
16:00:10 <pchampin> hi
16:00:20 <Zakim> +gkellogg
16:00:24 <pchampin> anyone using the SIP gateway for zakim?
16:00:38 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
16:00:44 <pchampin> it doesn't seem to work for me right now :-(
16:00:50 <Zakim> +??P19
16:01:00 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:24 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P19 is me
16:01:24 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
16:01:29 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:36 <Zakim> +Guus
16:01:39 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
16:01:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see bhyland, AndyS, gkellogg, OpenLink_Software, yvesr, Guus
16:01:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, TallTed, RRSAgent, pchampin, Zakim, AndyS, markus, Guus, LeeF, yvesr, SteveH, gkellogg, davidwood, gavinc, manu, mischat, manu1, trackbot, sandro, ericP
16:01:48 <davidwood> Zakim, bhyland is me
16:01:48 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
16:02:22 <TallTed> Zakim, who's here?
16:02:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see davidwood, AndyS, gkellogg, OpenLink_Software, yvesr, Guus
16:02:24 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:02:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, TallTed, RRSAgent, pchampin, Zakim, AndyS, markus, Guus, LeeF, yvesr, SteveH, gkellogg, davidwood, gavinc, manu, mischat, manu1, trackbot, sandro, ericP
16:02:24 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it
16:02:24 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg
16:02:26 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
16:02:26 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
16:02:36 <Zakim> +Souri
16:02:46 <Zakim> +EricP
16:02:58 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
16:02:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see davidwood, AndyS, gkellogg, TallTed (muted), yvesr, Guus, Souri, EricP (muted)
16:03:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see Arnaud, Souri, TallTed, RRSAgent, pchampin, Zakim, AndyS, markus, Guus, LeeF, yvesr, SteveH, gkellogg, davidwood, gavinc, manu, mischat, manu1, trackbot, sandro, ericP
16:04:29 <ericP> scribe: ericP
16:04:46 <Zakim> +Arnaud
16:05:24 <Zakim> +??P29
16:05:31 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 16 January telecon:   http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2013-01-16
16:05:56 <davidwood> RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 16 January telecon:   http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2013-01-16
16:05:59 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
16:05:59 <Guus> +1
16:06:01 <ericP> +1
16:06:08 <pchampin> zakim, ??p29 is me
16:06:08 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
16:06:08 <davidwood> topic: Review of action items
16:06:08 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
16:06:08 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
16:06:42 <Zakim> -Guus
16:06:50 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:06:55 <Zakim> +zwu2
16:07:25 <davidwood> Guus, we lost you.  Will you be able to rejoin?
16:07:49 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
16:07:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see davidwood, AndyS, gkellogg, TallTed (muted), yvesr, Souri, EricP, Arnaud, pchampin, zwu2
16:07:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see AZ, zwu2, Arnaud, Souri, TallTed, RRSAgent, pchampin, Zakim, AndyS, markus, Guus, LeeF, yvesr, SteveH, gkellogg, davidwood, gavinc, manu, mischat, manu1, trackbot,
16:07:51 <Zakim> ... sandro, ericP
16:08:34 <Zakim> +Guus
16:08:42 <ericP> topic: Turtle
16:09:01 <AndyS> guus: draft progress?
16:09:03 <Zakim> +AZ
16:09:39 <AndyS> ericP: actions in progress (for eric and gavin) ...
16:09:41 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG - http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ - current agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.01.23
16:09:59 <AndyS> guus: waiting for confirmation for ready to go
16:10:17 <AndyS> scribenick: AndyS
16:10:28 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdf-wg
16:10:30 <AndyS> ACTION-220?
16:10:30 <trackbot> ACTION-220 -- Eric Prud'hommeaux to change the AtRisk styling to allow searching documents for the words "feature" and "risk" to find Features At Risk -- due 2013-01-16 -- OPEN
16:10:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/220
16:10:57 <Zakim> +cygri
16:11:30 <AndyS> ericP: action should be on gavin as tech expert?
16:11:41 <AndyS> ACTION-190?
16:11:41 <trackbot> ACTION-190 -- Gavin Carothers to respond for i18n 186 -- due 2012-10-17 -- OPEN
16:11:41 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/190
16:11:47 <AndyS> ACTION-191?
16:11:47 <trackbot> ACTION-191 -- Gavin Carothers to add escaping to Turtle in HTML -- due 2012-10-17 -- OPEN
16:11:47 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/191
16:12:03 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/I18n-Comments
16:12:28 <cygri> scribe: cygri
16:12:53 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/186 I18N issue 186
16:13:38 <cygri> ericP: there was internal debate in I18N on this
16:13:46 <ericP> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2012JulSep/0119 Martin J. Dürst says a document has an encoding
16:14:23 <cygri> ... Addison wanted us to say that a document is a sequence of Unicode chars, but Martin said, no, a document has an encoding
16:14:40 <cygri> ... I believe Martin is always right
16:14:53 <cygri> ... They asked us to support any encoding
16:15:03 <cygri> ... We said we only do UTF-8
16:15:26 <cygri> ... I can send an email saying we go with Martin's story
16:16:06 <cygri> davidwood: ok, I have re-assigned ACTION-190 to you
16:16:58 <cygri> ericP: This (?) is tricky to do in ReSpec but easy at publication time, so please go ahead with the publication request
16:16:58 <trackbot> trackbot has joined #rdf-wg
16:17:28 <cygri> ericP: This (?) is tricky to do in ReSpec but easy at publication time, so please go ahead with the publication request, and I'll make the fix in the preparation for publication
16:18:07 <cygri> ACTION-191?
16:18:07 <trackbot> ACTION-191 -- Gavin Carothers to add escaping to Turtle in HTML -- due 2012-10-17 -- OPEN
16:18:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/191
16:18:13 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
16:18:25 <cygri> Guus: We did that.
16:18:52 <ericP> -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html Turtle Ed draft
16:19:45 <cygri> (discussion of the date in the ED)
16:19:59 <davidwood> Looking at https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#in-html it looks like action 191 is complete.
16:20:55 <Zakim> +FabGandon
16:20:55 <cygri> davidwood: The section on embedding Turtle in HTML appears to be talking sufficiently about escaping.
16:21:19 <davidwood> Close ACTION-191
16:21:19 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-191 Add escaping to Turtle in HTML.
16:21:21 <cygri> Guus: Let's call ACTION-191 done
16:22:04 <ericP> scribenick: ericP
16:22:17 <cygri> topic: Semantics
16:22:29 <ericP> davidwood: hard to address issue 109 without Pat and Peter
16:22:32 <cygri> davidwood: Pat and Peter not around, so let's move on from this one
16:22:44 <cygri> topic: Cleanup items
16:23:11 <ericP> davidwood: four open issues
16:23:16 <cygri> davidwood: Four open issues here. Can we get through a couple of them?
16:23:27 <cygri> ISSUE-25?
16:23:27 <trackbot> ISSUE-25 -- Should we deprecate (RDF 2004) reification of statements? -- open
16:23:27 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/25
16:23:58 <cygri> subtopic: ISSUE-25 Deprecation of reification?
16:23:59 <ericP> davidwood: last input from WG member was in Oct 2011
16:24:40 <ericP> ... discussion about marking reification or aspects of reification archaic
16:24:50 <ericP> ... we should close noting that resolution
16:25:14 <davidwood> PROPOSAL: Close ISSUE-25 by saying that this WG will not deprecate reification of statements.
16:25:18 <cygri> q+
16:25:22 <AndyS> +1 to do nothing for or against reification (let it quietly slip away)
16:25:22 <Arnaud> would be nice to briefly say why
16:25:24 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:26:03 <ericP> cygri: it might be a good idea to note informatively in the relevent spec section (RDF Schema) that named graphs and RDF datasets are another mechanism to accomplish the same goals
16:26:14 <TallTed> +1
16:26:16 <ericP> davidwood: yes, and we have to republish RDF Schema
16:26:31 <ericP> ... Arnaud said it would be nice to know why.
16:26:43 <ericP> ... fundamental issue is that the WG couldn't gain concensus
16:27:48 <yvesr> +1, but it is added 'noise' to the spec, which will make it harder to understand for new-comers
16:27:53 <AndyS> q+
16:28:01 <ericP> ericP: are there folks using it?
16:28:16 <cygri> q+ to mention Talis changesets
16:28:24 <ericP> Arnaud: i used to tell people at IBM that reification was going away
16:28:30 <davidwood> ack AndyS
16:28:34 <ericP> ... can we doc why we don't have consensus?
16:28:47 <Zakim> +PatH
16:28:55 <ericP> AndyS: i'd rather not make a value judgement about reification.
16:28:58 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:28:58 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to mention Talis changesets
16:29:10 <ericP> ... it's used in fewer cases than before, but still sometimes the right thing to do
16:29:36 <ericP> cygri: at the beginning of the WG, we mentioned that Talis used reification for their change sets
16:29:36 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:29:36 <Zakim> TallTed should no longer be muted
16:30:23 <ericP> ... they've left that line of business ('cause of reificiation...?)
16:30:42 <ericP> macted: they've left the public service part of that business but still do it in private
16:31:27 <davidwood> q?
16:31:35 <ericP> cygri: in private has less weight for us, but yes, we can document that there are multiple ways to accomplish these goals
16:32:21 <ericP> PatH: it's not correct to say that named graphs provide an alternative 'cause it doesn't have a semantics.
16:32:46 <ericP> ... reification does have a semantics; it's just not normative
16:33:21 <ericP> cygri: the reification semantics are *neither* normative or informative
16:33:33 <davidwood> PROPOSAL: Close ISSUE-25 by saying that this WG will not deprecate reification of statements.  We will note informatively in the RDF Schema spec that named graphs and RDF datasets are another mechanism to accomplish the same goals.
16:33:40 <cygri> s/or informative/nor formal/
16:33:47 <yvesr> +1
16:33:54 <cygri> +1
16:33:55 <FabGandon> +1
16:33:55 <zwu2> +1
16:33:57 <AndyS> +1
16:33:59 <ericP> davidwood: i think we don't have agreement about the text for guiding users
16:33:59 <gkellogg> +1
16:34:02 <davidwood> +1
16:34:02 <pchampin> +1
16:34:04 <ericP> ... but this is the best we can do
16:34:04 <TallTed> +1
16:34:04 <Arnaud> +1
16:34:05 <ericP> +1
16:34:08 <Souri> +1
16:34:12 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
16:34:12 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
16:34:12 <AZ> +1
# Resolution was originally not scribed. Added after the fact by cygri.
16:34:20 <cygri> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-25 by saying that this WG will not deprecate reification of statements.  We will note informatively in the RDF Schema spec that named graphs and RDF datasets are another mechanism to accomplish the same goals.
16:34:29 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:34:29 <Zakim> TallTed should no longer be muted
16:35:00 <cygri> subtopic: Errata and comments mailing list
16:36:24 <ericP> davidwood: we have earlier issues, issue-3 and issue-6, about handling errata
16:36:37 <ericP> ... gus summarized the errata in Oct 2012
16:36:50 <ericP> s/gus/Guus/
16:37:02 <ericP> davidwood: any volunteers to cleaning that up?
16:37:04 <cygri> q+
16:37:09 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:37:48 <ericP> cygri: issue-3 seems to be about reviewing everything sent to the mailing list
16:37:58 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/errata
16:38:06 <ericP> ... issue-6 is about reviewing the well-structured errata page
16:38:26 <davidwood> Guus' summary of errata and issues: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Oct/0234.html
16:38:58 <ericP> ... some errata for RDF/XML, some for Semantics and 2 for test cases
16:39:59 <ericP> ericP: actions on the spec editors for those specs?
16:40:19 <ericP> PatH: action to review, incorporate and report
16:40:42 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
16:40:42 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
16:41:13 <ericP> Guus: my message has a long list of errata, not separated by doc
16:41:23 <ericP> cygri: which were already captured on the errata page?
16:41:49 <ericP> Guus: none. I intended to take only those not covered by the errata page
16:42:51 <ericP> davidwood: we need to raise all of these as potential issues and decide which to open
16:43:41 <ericP> ACTION: Guus to partition by document the issues in his summary and raise issues on the appropriate documents
16:43:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-223 - Partition by document the issues in his summary and raise issues on the appropriate documents [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-01-30].
16:44:00 <cygri> subtopic: ISSUE-62, semantic error in test cases manifest
16:44:20 <ericP> davidwood: in issue-62, the test cases manifest has a semantic error
16:44:39 <ericP> ... we decided 1.5 years ago that we need to look at this.
16:45:02 <ericP> ACTION: PatH to review and report on ISSUE-62
16:45:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-224 - Review and report on ISSUE-62 [on Patrick Hayes - due 2013-01-30].
16:45:06 <AndyS> Hmm - it's used by other groups already.
16:45:14 <davidwood> q?
16:45:30 <davidwood> Topic: Extension Request
16:45:46 <ericP> davidwood: this needs to be done within the week
16:45:48 <davidwood> Draft in progress: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Rdf-extension.html
16:45:52 <ericP> ... i have a draft on the wiki
16:46:07 <ericP> ... i'm basing that off of the PROV WG's extension request
16:46:10 <davidwood> …based on PROV-WG's extension request: https://www.w3.org/2012/08/prov-extension.html
16:46:34 <ericP> ... next step is to make a list of our document states
16:46:43 <ericP> ... Last Calls, CRs, etc.
16:47:19 <ericP> ... the draft already has a list of docs, but it would be nice if editors would update their versions
16:48:11 <ericP> ... ivan will want to see this done when he gets back from bejing
16:51:04 <ericP> ACTION: ericP to update extension request with Turtle publication dates
16:51:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-225 - Update extension request with Turtle publication dates [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2013-01-30].
16:52:28 <cygri> q+
16:52:29 <ericP> davidwood: we've been waiting for semantics and concepts to align
16:52:46 <ericP> ... we spent two years getting consensus
16:52:54 <ericP> ... now that we have that, they should roll out quickly
16:53:12 <ericP> cygri: and having consensus, the editorial changes are minimal
16:53:16 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:53:29 <ericP> PatH: in the Semantics docs, the changes are deletions
16:53:50 <Zakim> -PatH
16:53:51 <Zakim> -yvesr
16:53:52 <Zakim> -gkellogg
16:53:53 <Zakim> -Arnaud
16:53:54 <Zakim> -EricP
16:53:55 <Zakim> -AZ
16:53:57 <Zakim> -TallTed
16:53:58 <Zakim> -zwu2
16:53:58 <Zakim> -FabGandon
16:53:58 <Zakim> -davidwood
16:54:00 <Zakim> -Souri
16:54:00 <Zakim> -Guus
16:54:02 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:54:19 <Zakim> -pchampin
16:56:52 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-wg
17:17:03 <cygri> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:35:00 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, cygri, in SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
17:35:01 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
17:35:01 <Zakim> Attendees were AndyS, gkellogg, yvesr, Guus, davidwood, TallTed, Souri, EricP, Arnaud, pchampin, zwu2, AZ, cygri, FabGandon, PatH
17:35:14 <Arnaud> Arnaud has left #rdf-wg
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20:45:22 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-wg
21:35:27 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
22:02:54 <ivan> ivan has joined #rdf-wg
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