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15:58:40 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg 15:58:40 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/01/23-rdf-wg-irc 15:58:47 <davidwood> Zakim, this will be RDF 15:58:47 <Zakim> ok, davidwood, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started 15:59:06 <davidwood> chair: David Wood 15:59:10 <cygri> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.01.23 15:59:20 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 15:59:27 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me 15:59:27 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it 16:00:10 <pchampin> hi 16:00:20 <Zakim> +gkellogg 16:00:24 <pchampin> anyone using the SIP gateway for zakim? 16:00:38 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software 16:00:44 <pchampin> it doesn't seem to work for me right now :-( 16:00:50 <Zakim> +??P19 16:01:00 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #rdf-wg 16:01:24 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P19 is me 16:01:24 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it 16:01:29 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg 16:01:36 <Zakim> +Guus 16:01:39 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here? 16:01:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see bhyland, AndyS, gkellogg, OpenLink_Software, yvesr, Guus 16:01:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, TallTed, RRSAgent, pchampin, Zakim, AndyS, markus, Guus, LeeF, yvesr, SteveH, gkellogg, davidwood, gavinc, manu, mischat, manu1, trackbot, sandro, ericP 16:01:48 <davidwood> Zakim, bhyland is me 16:01:48 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it 16:02:22 <TallTed> Zakim, who's here? 16:02:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see davidwood, AndyS, gkellogg, OpenLink_Software, yvesr, Guus 16:02:24 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 16:02:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, TallTed, RRSAgent, pchampin, Zakim, AndyS, markus, Guus, LeeF, yvesr, SteveH, gkellogg, davidwood, gavinc, manu, mischat, manu1, trackbot, sandro, ericP 16:02:24 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it 16:02:24 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg 16:02:26 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me 16:02:26 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted 16:02:36 <Zakim> +Souri 16:02:46 <Zakim> +EricP 16:02:58 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here? 16:02:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see davidwood, AndyS, gkellogg, TallTed (muted), yvesr, Guus, Souri, EricP (muted) 16:03:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see Arnaud, Souri, TallTed, RRSAgent, pchampin, Zakim, AndyS, markus, Guus, LeeF, yvesr, SteveH, gkellogg, davidwood, gavinc, manu, mischat, manu1, trackbot, sandro, ericP 16:04:29 <ericP> scribe: ericP 16:04:46 <Zakim> +Arnaud 16:05:24 <Zakim> +??P29 16:05:31 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 16 January telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2013-01-16 16:05:56 <davidwood> RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 16 January telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2013-01-16 16:05:59 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg 16:05:59 <Guus> +1 16:06:01 <ericP> +1 16:06:08 <pchampin> zakim, ??p29 is me 16:06:08 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it 16:06:08 <davidwood> topic: Review of action items 16:06:08 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview 16:06:08 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open 16:06:42 <Zakim> -Guus 16:06:50 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg 16:06:55 <Zakim> +zwu2 16:07:25 <davidwood> Guus, we lost you. Will you be able to rejoin? 16:07:49 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here? 16:07:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see davidwood, AndyS, gkellogg, TallTed (muted), yvesr, Souri, EricP, Arnaud, pchampin, zwu2 16:07:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see AZ, zwu2, Arnaud, Souri, TallTed, RRSAgent, pchampin, Zakim, AndyS, markus, Guus, LeeF, yvesr, SteveH, gkellogg, davidwood, gavinc, manu, mischat, manu1, trackbot, 16:07:51 <Zakim> ... sandro, ericP 16:08:34 <Zakim> +Guus 16:08:42 <ericP> topic: Turtle 16:09:01 <AndyS> guus: draft progress? 16:09:03 <Zakim> +AZ 16:09:39 <AndyS> ericP: actions in progress (for eric and gavin) ... 16:09:41 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG - http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ - current agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.01.23 16:09:59 <AndyS> guus: waiting for confirmation for ready to go 16:10:17 <AndyS> scribenick: AndyS 16:10:28 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdf-wg 16:10:30 <AndyS> ACTION-220? 16:10:30 <trackbot> ACTION-220 -- Eric Prud'hommeaux to change the AtRisk styling to allow searching documents for the words "feature" and "risk" to find Features At Risk -- due 2013-01-16 -- OPEN 16:10:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/220 16:10:57 <Zakim> +cygri 16:11:30 <AndyS> ericP: action should be on gavin as tech expert? 16:11:41 <AndyS> ACTION-190? 16:11:41 <trackbot> ACTION-190 -- Gavin Carothers to respond for i18n 186 -- due 2012-10-17 -- OPEN 16:11:41 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/190 16:11:47 <AndyS> ACTION-191? 16:11:47 <trackbot> ACTION-191 -- Gavin Carothers to add escaping to Turtle in HTML -- due 2012-10-17 -- OPEN 16:11:47 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/191 16:12:03 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/I18n-Comments 16:12:28 <cygri> scribe: cygri 16:12:53 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/186 I18N issue 186 16:13:38 <cygri> ericP: there was internal debate in I18N on this 16:13:46 <ericP> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2012JulSep/0119 Martin J. Dürst says a document has an encoding 16:14:23 <cygri> ... Addison wanted us to say that a document is a sequence of Unicode chars, but Martin said, no, a document has an encoding 16:14:40 <cygri> ... I believe Martin is always right 16:14:53 <cygri> ... They asked us to support any encoding 16:15:03 <cygri> ... We said we only do UTF-8 16:15:26 <cygri> ... I can send an email saying we go with Martin's story 16:16:06 <cygri> davidwood: ok, I have re-assigned ACTION-190 to you 16:16:58 <cygri> ericP: This (?) is tricky to do in ReSpec but easy at publication time, so please go ahead with the publication request 16:16:58 <trackbot> trackbot has joined #rdf-wg 16:17:28 <cygri> ericP: This (?) is tricky to do in ReSpec but easy at publication time, so please go ahead with the publication request, and I'll make the fix in the preparation for publication 16:18:07 <cygri> ACTION-191? 16:18:07 <trackbot> ACTION-191 -- Gavin Carothers to add escaping to Turtle in HTML -- due 2012-10-17 -- OPEN 16:18:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/191 16:18:13 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg 16:18:25 <cygri> Guus: We did that. 16:18:52 <ericP> -> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html Turtle Ed draft 16:19:45 <cygri> (discussion of the date in the ED) 16:19:59 <davidwood> Looking at https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#in-html it looks like action 191 is complete. 16:20:55 <Zakim> +FabGandon 16:20:55 <cygri> davidwood: The section on embedding Turtle in HTML appears to be talking sufficiently about escaping. 16:21:19 <davidwood> Close ACTION-191 16:21:19 <trackbot> Closed ACTION-191 Add escaping to Turtle in HTML. 16:21:21 <cygri> Guus: Let's call ACTION-191 done 16:22:04 <ericP> scribenick: ericP 16:22:17 <cygri> topic: Semantics 16:22:29 <ericP> davidwood: hard to address issue 109 without Pat and Peter 16:22:32 <cygri> davidwood: Pat and Peter not around, so let's move on from this one 16:22:44 <cygri> topic: Cleanup items 16:23:11 <ericP> davidwood: four open issues 16:23:16 <cygri> davidwood: Four open issues here. Can we get through a couple of them? 16:23:27 <cygri> ISSUE-25? 16:23:27 <trackbot> ISSUE-25 -- Should we deprecate (RDF 2004) reification of statements? -- open 16:23:27 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/25 16:23:58 <cygri> subtopic: ISSUE-25 Deprecation of reification? 16:23:59 <ericP> davidwood: last input from WG member was in Oct 2011 16:24:40 <ericP> ... discussion about marking reification or aspects of reification archaic 16:24:50 <ericP> ... we should close noting that resolution 16:25:14 <davidwood> PROPOSAL: Close ISSUE-25 by saying that this WG will not deprecate reification of statements. 16:25:18 <cygri> q+ 16:25:22 <AndyS> +1 to do nothing for or against reification (let it quietly slip away) 16:25:22 <Arnaud> would be nice to briefly say why 16:25:24 <davidwood> ack cygri 16:26:03 <ericP> cygri: it might be a good idea to note informatively in the relevent spec section (RDF Schema) that named graphs and RDF datasets are another mechanism to accomplish the same goals 16:26:14 <TallTed> +1 16:26:16 <ericP> davidwood: yes, and we have to republish RDF Schema 16:26:31 <ericP> ... Arnaud said it would be nice to know why. 16:26:43 <ericP> ... fundamental issue is that the WG couldn't gain concensus 16:27:48 <yvesr> +1, but it is added 'noise' to the spec, which will make it harder to understand for new-comers 16:27:53 <AndyS> q+ 16:28:01 <ericP> ericP: are there folks using it? 16:28:16 <cygri> q+ to mention Talis changesets 16:28:24 <ericP> Arnaud: i used to tell people at IBM that reification was going away 16:28:30 <davidwood> ack AndyS 16:28:34 <ericP> ... can we doc why we don't have consensus? 16:28:47 <Zakim> +PatH 16:28:55 <ericP> AndyS: i'd rather not make a value judgement about reification. 16:28:58 <davidwood> ack cygri 16:28:58 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to mention Talis changesets 16:29:10 <ericP> ... it's used in fewer cases than before, but still sometimes the right thing to do 16:29:36 <ericP> cygri: at the beginning of the WG, we mentioned that Talis used reification for their change sets 16:29:36 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me 16:29:36 <Zakim> TallTed should no longer be muted 16:30:23 <ericP> ... they've left that line of business ('cause of reificiation...?) 16:30:42 <ericP> macted: they've left the public service part of that business but still do it in private 16:31:27 <davidwood> q? 16:31:35 <ericP> cygri: in private has less weight for us, but yes, we can document that there are multiple ways to accomplish these goals 16:32:21 <ericP> PatH: it's not correct to say that named graphs provide an alternative 'cause it doesn't have a semantics. 16:32:46 <ericP> ... reification does have a semantics; it's just not normative 16:33:21 <ericP> cygri: the reification semantics are *neither* normative or informative 16:33:33 <davidwood> PROPOSAL: Close ISSUE-25 by saying that this WG will not deprecate reification of statements. We will note informatively in the RDF Schema spec that named graphs and RDF datasets are another mechanism to accomplish the same goals. 16:33:40 <cygri> s/or informative/nor formal/ 16:33:47 <yvesr> +1 16:33:54 <cygri> +1 16:33:55 <FabGandon> +1 16:33:55 <zwu2> +1 16:33:57 <AndyS> +1 16:33:59 <ericP> davidwood: i think we don't have agreement about the text for guiding users 16:33:59 <gkellogg> +1 16:34:02 <davidwood> +1 16:34:02 <pchampin> +1 16:34:04 <ericP> ... but this is the best we can do 16:34:04 <TallTed> +1 16:34:04 <Arnaud> +1 16:34:05 <ericP> +1 16:34:08 <Souri> +1 16:34:12 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me 16:34:12 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted 16:34:12 <AZ> +1 # Resolution was originally not scribed. Added after the fact by cygri. 16:34:20 <cygri> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-25 by saying that this WG will not deprecate reification of statements. We will note informatively in the RDF Schema spec that named graphs and RDF datasets are another mechanism to accomplish the same goals. 16:34:29 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me 16:34:29 <Zakim> TallTed should no longer be muted 16:35:00 <cygri> subtopic: Errata and comments mailing list 16:36:24 <ericP> davidwood: we have earlier issues, issue-3 and issue-6, about handling errata 16:36:37 <ericP> ... gus summarized the errata in Oct 2012 16:36:50 <ericP> s/gus/Guus/ 16:37:02 <ericP> davidwood: any volunteers to cleaning that up? 16:37:04 <cygri> q+ 16:37:09 <davidwood> ack cygri 16:37:48 <ericP> cygri: issue-3 seems to be about reviewing everything sent to the mailing list 16:37:58 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/errata 16:38:06 <ericP> ... issue-6 is about reviewing the well-structured errata page 16:38:26 <davidwood> Guus' summary of errata and issues: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Oct/0234.html 16:38:58 <ericP> ... some errata for RDF/XML, some for Semantics and 2 for test cases 16:39:59 <ericP> ericP: actions on the spec editors for those specs? 16:40:19 <ericP> PatH: action to review, incorporate and report 16:40:42 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me 16:40:42 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted 16:41:13 <ericP> Guus: my message has a long list of errata, not separated by doc 16:41:23 <ericP> cygri: which were already captured on the errata page? 16:41:49 <ericP> Guus: none. I intended to take only those not covered by the errata page 16:42:51 <ericP> davidwood: we need to raise all of these as potential issues and decide which to open 16:43:41 <ericP> ACTION: Guus to partition by document the issues in his summary and raise issues on the appropriate documents 16:43:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-223 - Partition by document the issues in his summary and raise issues on the appropriate documents [on Guus Schreiber - due 2013-01-30]. 16:44:00 <cygri> subtopic: ISSUE-62, semantic error in test cases manifest 16:44:20 <ericP> davidwood: in issue-62, the test cases manifest has a semantic error 16:44:39 <ericP> ... we decided 1.5 years ago that we need to look at this. 16:45:02 <ericP> ACTION: PatH to review and report on ISSUE-62 16:45:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-224 - Review and report on ISSUE-62 [on Patrick Hayes - due 2013-01-30]. 16:45:06 <AndyS> Hmm - it's used by other groups already. 16:45:14 <davidwood> q? 16:45:30 <davidwood> Topic: Extension Request 16:45:46 <ericP> davidwood: this needs to be done within the week 16:45:48 <davidwood> Draft in progress: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Rdf-extension.html 16:45:52 <ericP> ... i have a draft on the wiki 16:46:07 <ericP> ... i'm basing that off of the PROV WG's extension request 16:46:10 <davidwood> …based on PROV-WG's extension request: https://www.w3.org/2012/08/prov-extension.html 16:46:34 <ericP> ... next step is to make a list of our document states 16:46:43 <ericP> ... Last Calls, CRs, etc. 16:47:19 <ericP> ... the draft already has a list of docs, but it would be nice if editors would update their versions 16:48:11 <ericP> ... ivan will want to see this done when he gets back from bejing 16:51:04 <ericP> ACTION: ericP to update extension request with Turtle publication dates 16:51:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-225 - Update extension request with Turtle publication dates [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2013-01-30]. 16:52:28 <cygri> q+ 16:52:29 <ericP> davidwood: we've been waiting for semantics and concepts to align 16:52:46 <ericP> ... we spent two years getting consensus 16:52:54 <ericP> ... now that we have that, they should roll out quickly 16:53:12 <ericP> cygri: and having consensus, the editorial changes are minimal 16:53:16 <davidwood> ack cygri 16:53:29 <ericP> PatH: in the Semantics docs, the changes are deletions 16:53:50 <Zakim> -PatH 16:53:51 <Zakim> -yvesr 16:53:52 <Zakim> -gkellogg 16:53:53 <Zakim> -Arnaud 16:53:54 <Zakim> -EricP 16:53:55 <Zakim> -AZ 16:53:57 <Zakim> -TallTed 16:53:58 <Zakim> -zwu2 16:53:58 <Zakim> -FabGandon 16:53:58 <Zakim> -davidwood 16:54:00 <Zakim> -Souri 16:54:00 <Zakim> -Guus 16:54:02 <Zakim> -AndyS 16:54:19 <Zakim> -pchampin 16:56:52 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-wg 17:17:03 <cygri> RRSAgent, make logs public 17:35:00 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, cygri, in SW_RDFWG()11:00AM 17:35:01 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended 17:35:01 <Zakim> Attendees were AndyS, gkellogg, yvesr, Guus, davidwood, TallTed, Souri, EricP, Arnaud, pchampin, zwu2, AZ, cygri, FabGandon, PatH 17:35:14 <Arnaud> Arnaud has left #rdf-wg 18:57:52 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-wg 20:45:22 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-wg 21:35:27 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg 22:02:54 <ivan> ivan has joined #rdf-wg 23:58:36 <LeeF> LeeF has joined #rdf-wg # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. 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