Chatlog 2012-10-10

See panel, original RRSAgent log or preview nicely formatted version.

Please justify/explain non-obvious edits to this page, in your "edit summary" text.

14:55:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:55:46 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/10-rdf-wg-irc
14:55:48 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:55:48 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:55:50 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
14:55:50 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:51 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:55:51 <trackbot> Date: 10 October 2012
15:00:20 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
15:00:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see tbaker, AndyS, gavinc, Guus, Sandro
15:00:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, AndyS, gkellogg, ivan, MacTed, tbaker, Guus, SteveH, mischat, gavinc, Arnaud, davidwood, manu1, manu, yvesr, trackbot, ericP, sandro
15:04:01 <AZ> Zakim, who is here please?
15:04:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see tbaker, AndyS, gavinc, Guus, Sandro, yvesr, pchampin, cgreer, MacTed (muted), ivan, AZ, pfps, Arnaud
15:04:04 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb
15:04:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, pfps, AlexHall, AZ, cgreer, pchampin, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, gkellogg, ivan, MacTed, tbaker, Guus, SteveH, mischat, gavinc, Arnaud, davidwood, manu1, manu,
15:04:08 <Zakim> ... yvesr, trackbot, ericP, sandro
15:05:00 <Guus> chair: Guus
15:05:02 <AndyS> scribenick: AndyS
15:05:38 <AndyS> agenda - http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.10.10
15:05:57 <AndyS> topic: admin
15:06:24 <AndyS> minutes of last meeting -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-10-03
15:06:30 <pfps> minutes look ok
15:06:35 <AndyS> guus: accepted
15:06:58 <AndyS> RESOLVED: accept the minutes of 2012-10-03 (http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-10-03)
15:07:14 <AndyS> subtopic: action items
15:08:08 <AndyS> no telecon 31 Oct (same week as face-to-face)
15:08:18 <AndyS> topic: Turtle Last Call
15:08:34 <AndyS> next meeting next week : 17 Oct
15:08:58 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/I18n-Comments
15:09:01 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/I18n-Comments
15:09:03 <AndyS> Guus: issue numbers are in I18N tracker.
15:09:42 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:10:07 <AndyS> (the proposals are linked to by Nack/ack)
15:10:20 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aadd
15:10:34 <zwu2> zakim, +1.650.265.aadd is me
15:10:34 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
15:10:48 <ivan> zakim, mute me
15:10:48 <Zakim> ivan should now be muted
15:10:55 <AndyS> ericP: 178 -- BCP 47 reference
15:11:24 <Guus> PROPOSAL: wedge in a not-too-contrived ref in section 7 Parsing: "and an optional language tag [BCP47] or datatype IRI" per editor's draft.
15:11:34 <gavinc> +1 already completed in ED
15:11:54 <Zakim> +PatH
15:11:55 <AndyS> Guus: any discussion? no ...
15:12:04 <pfps> go for it
15:12:06 <MacTed> issue-178?
15:12:06 <trackbot> ISSUE-178 does not exist
15:12:18 <AndyS> ... resolved
15:12:19 <gavinc> I18N-ISSUE-178?
15:12:35 <AndyS> RESOLVED: i18n-178 wedge in a not-too-contrived ref in section 7 Parsing: "and an optional language tag [BCP47] or datatype IRI" per editor's draft.
15:12:52 <AndyS> Guus: 179 ...
15:13:04 <patH> patH has joined #rdf-wg
15:13:13 <AndyS> gavinc: scope of language e.g. common langauge for all doc.
15:13:20 <gavinc> PROPOSAL: Turtle will not add a method to declare the language of the document.
15:13:22 <AndyS> ... proposal - not to add
15:13:24 <pfps> good idea to not do it
15:13:56 <AndyS> RESOLVED: i18n-179 Turtle will not add a method to declare the language of the document.
15:14:09 <ericP> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#turtle-literals
15:14:15 <patH> zakim, mute me
15:14:15 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
15:14:17 <AndyS> guus: next ... 180 ...
15:14:46 <AndyS> PROPOSAL: add this markup [[ (<span class="codepoint">#005E</span>)"]]  to the first reference to each character per the editor's draft  <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#turtle-literals>.
15:15:06 <pfps> obnoxious, but probably a good idea
15:15:46 <AndyS> RESOLVED: i18n-180 add this markup [[ (<span class="codepoint">#005E</span>)"]]  to the first reference to each character per the editor's draft  <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#turtle-literals>.
15:15:58 <patH> good+obnoxious = medicinal?
15:16:05 <AndyS> guus: ... 181 ...
15:16:20 <ericP> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#turtle-literals
15:16:26 <pfps> sounds reasonable
15:17:01 <AndyS> PROPOSAL: i18n-181 add  example of non-ASCII IRI
15:17:09 <yvesr> +1
15:17:16 <AndyS> RESOLVED: add  example of non-ASCII IRI
15:17:32 <AndyS> guus: ... 182 ...
15:18:09 <AndyS> ericP: need a sublanguage example.  Don't see how it can be better.
15:18:20 <pchampin> well for the record, we had this TV show in France :)
15:18:28 <pchampin> q+
15:18:30 <pfps> ok by me
15:18:32 <patH> agree this is a good example.
15:19:23 <AndyS> pchampin: could use colour/color in @en
15:19:47 <gavinc> ack pchampin
15:19:54 <AndyS> PROPOSAL: 182 -- No change
15:20:03 <AndyS> RESOLVED: i18n-182 -- No change
15:20:14 <ericP> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#abbrev
15:21:02 <AndyS> ericP: 183 -- work in progress
15:21:18 <AZ> example -- my:productInStock   :hasQuantity  10
15:21:26 <pfps> you could always cheat and have the property be something like usdebtindollars 
15:22:25 <AndyS> gavinc: good relations as a source of examples? Need xsd:double as well.
15:22:30 <gkellogg> Avagadro's Number?
15:22:34 <patH> engineering data uses doubles somewhere?
15:23:03 <patH> Check out ISO definition of a mole.
15:23:27 <patH> Aaaarghhhh
15:23:35 <patH> I will attempt it.
15:23:51 <pfps> along the same lines, one could use dimensionless constants
15:24:04 <AndyS> gavinc: 183 still open at the moment
15:24:09 <AndyS> guus: need a plan
15:24:29 <AndyS> ericP: ping with nack unless you (i18n) have an example
15:24:37 <pfps> fine, as long as we close the issue pending further input
15:24:52 <ivan> +1 to pfps 
15:25:24 <AndyS> PROPOSED: i18n-183 -- EricP to respond with "no change unless you have further input"
15:25:37 <AndyS> RESOLVED: i18n-183 -- EricP to respond with "no change unless you have further input"
15:25:46 <AndyS> guus: ... 184 ...
15:25:51 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/mid/20121002044103.GD27799@w3.org
15:26:14 <pfps> +1
15:26:33 <ivan> +1
15:26:39 <AndyS> RESOLVED: i18n-184 -- Use the text U+xx form [[ U+B7, U+300 to U+36F and U+203F to U+2040 are permitted anywhere except the first character. ]] per the editor's draft <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#BNodes>
15:27:03 <AndyS> ACTION EricP Respond to i18n for issue 183
15:27:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-188 - Respond to i18n for issue 183 [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-10-17].
15:27:42 <AndyS> ericP: line terminators 185
15:27:45 <AndyS> PROPOSAL: Alter the text introducing the 4th example in §3 to say " The  line breaks in this example are LINE FEED characters (U+0A)." per  editor's draft  <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-examples>
15:27:47 <pfps> picky, but works for me
15:28:03 <AndyS> RESOLVED: i18n-185 Alter the text introducing the 4th example in §3 to say " The  line breaks in this example are LINE FEED characters (U+0A)." per  editor's draft  <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-examples>
15:28:29 <gavinc> PROPOSAL: Turtle will continue to use \u \U escape syntax.
15:28:32 <AndyS> gavinc: 187 -- \u escape
15:28:35 <pfps> agreed, we are not going to fix this issue
15:28:40 <patH> +1
15:28:58 <AndyS> RESOLVED: i18n-187 Turtle will continue to use \u \U escape syntax.
15:29:07 <pfps> well, we are following the crowd, which may not be going in the "right" direction
15:29:50 <AndyS> ericP: 188 - special handling of % in IRI
15:30:19 <AndyS> ... what we have is correct - discussion has happened already. 
15:30:28 <gavinc> damn, ISSUE-186 is for us
15:31:01 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/I18n-Comments#189:_.5BS.5D_reference_obs-language-tag_instead_of_defining_your_own
15:31:08 <AndyS> RESOLVED: i18n-188 no change -- special handling of % in IRI
15:31:51 <AndyS> ericP: ... 189 ... advice from BCP 47 for language tags
15:32:07 <AndyS> ... ABNF is quite complicated and much more than RFC.
15:32:43 <AndyS> ... historical was 8 char/numbers per section between the "-"
15:33:24 <AndyS> PROPOSAL: Use {1,8} in lang tag production and {..} for \u \U escapes
15:33:51 <AndyS> (variation to SPARQL) Minor
15:33:51 <gavinc> +q to say nothing is wrong
15:34:48 <AndyS> gavinc: adding {1,8} does not make full checking happen so nothing changes really.
15:35:08 <AndyS> ... already have to do further checking so little value in adding to Turtle
15:35:15 <patH> could pont that out in the prose, though.
15:35:18 <AndyS> ... no need to complicate the grammar
15:35:26 <AndyS> (c.f. RD/XML)
15:35:27 <patH> since apparently they missed it.
15:35:29 <AndyS> (c.f. RDF/XML)
15:35:41 <gavinc> Zakim, who is talking
15:35:41 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', gavinc
15:35:43 <gavinc> Zakim, who is talking?
15:35:45 <AndyS> ack gavinc
15:35:45 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to say nothing is wrong
15:35:53 <Zakim> gavinc, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (14%)
15:36:45 <AndyS> guus: one more week to agree and on agenda next week
15:36:54 <AndyS> sandro: what moves this on?
15:37:04 <AndyS> ericP: ericP and gavinc to email on list
15:37:14 <AndyS> guus: editors to agree
15:37:23 <AndyS> ... i18n 190
15:37:37 <AndyS> ... " attempting to erase combining marks?"
15:38:56 <AndyS> PROPOSAL: i18n-190 -- No change - follow XML ed 5
15:39:27 <AndyS> RESOLVED: i18n-190 -- No change - follow XML ed 5
15:39:35 <AndyS> guus: ... 191 ... 
15:39:52 <AndyS> ericP: editorial matters
15:40:16 <AndyS> ... one change proposed otherwise already covered
15:40:55 <AndyS> RESOLVED: i18n-191 as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Oct/0017.html
15:41:29 <ericP> https://github.com/darobin/respec/blob/f7f242642de460e73dcbbb509efb582925b4c6ac/bibref/biblio.js
15:41:30 <AndyS> guus: ... 192 ...
15:41:53 <gkellogg> Issue a pull request against robin's Git repo
15:42:05 <AndyS> gavinc: will do it (ReSpec and reference issue)
15:42:27 <AndyS> RESOLVED: i18n-192 Update ReSpec for doc.
15:42:57 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin to finish i18n-192
15:42:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-189 - Finish i18n-192 [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-10-17].
15:42:58 <AndyS> action: gavinc - send an ack to the comments list an di18n for 192
15:42:58 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find gavinc. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/users>.
15:43:24 <patH> "anack" (noun): a state of total confusion about what to do next.
15:43:59 <AndyS> ericP: 193 - no change
15:44:11 <AndyS> ... good to have someone double check.
15:44:25 <AndyS> ... the escape processing text
15:44:40 <AndyS> gavinc: 3rd party confirms it works
15:44:55 <AndyS> RESOLVED: i18n-193 - no change
15:45:05 <AndyS> guus: ... missed 186 ...
15:45:26 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
15:45:26 <Zakim> ivan should no longer be muted
15:45:29 <AndyS> gavinc: i18n suggests not just UTF-8
15:45:38 <AndyS> ... XML is not a good example.
15:45:52 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/International/track/issues/186
15:45:58 <AndyS> ericP: agree - no change
15:46:27 <AndyS> PROPOSED: i18n-186 : keep Turtle as UTF-8
15:47:18 <ivan> q+
15:47:52 <AndyS> andys: a perma-issue on support lists
15:48:11 <AndyS> ivan: deployed practice is UTF-8
15:48:23 <AndyS> RESOLVED: i18n-186 : keep Turtle as UTF-8
15:49:12 <AndyS> action: gavin -- respond for i18n 187
15:49:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-190 - -- respond for i18n 187 [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-10-17].
15:49:40 <AndyS> ACTION-190 respond for i18n 186
15:49:40 <trackbot> ACTION-190 -- respond for i18n 187 notes added
15:50:07 <AndyS> guus: other comments
15:51:02 <AndyS> gavinc: already done .. no response
15:51:15 <AndyS> ... rest minor editorial
15:51:48 <AndyS> ... except TTL+HTML section to separate Note
15:52:16 <ivan> q+
15:53:38 <ivan> q+
15:54:07 <AndyS> guus: prefer appendix
15:54:23 <AndyS> sandro: use of script tag?
15:54:24 <ivan> q-
15:54:55 <AndyS> gavinc: problem is Turtle with an end script tag in content.
15:54:56 <gkellogg> Or CDATA?
15:55:14 <gkellogg> :-P
15:55:52 <AndyS> sandro: useful to put into the spec as good practice
15:56:27 <AndyS> gkellogg: JSON-LD does not talk about this - not TTL specific - generic for embedding in <script>
15:56:41 <AndyS> ... e.g. n-triples
15:57:02 <sandro> q?
15:57:43 <patH> Not following all of the detail, but I hear violent agreement and people saying the spec should draw attention to it. So, editorial. Case closed?
15:57:46 <AndyS> sandro: give an escaping example
15:58:11 <AndyS> gavinc: I can add it
15:59:37 <AndyS> guus: propose to be an appendix
15:59:45 <gavinc> RESOLVED: Leave Turtle in HTML in appendix, add stuff about escaping
16:00:17 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin add escaping to Turtle in HTML
16:00:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-191 - Add escaping to Turtle in HTML [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-10-17].
16:01:10 <gavinc> ISSUE Turtle in HTML doesn't explain escaping
16:01:15 <gavinc> ISSUE: Turtle in HTML doesn't explain escaping
16:01:16 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-100 - Turtle in HTML doesn't explain escaping ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/100/edit .
16:01:31 <AndyS> guus: What is then the status of Turtle?
16:01:45 <Zakim> +Sandro.a
16:01:45 <AndyS> ... do we need 2LC or can we go to CR?
16:01:47 <AndyS> q+
16:01:50 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:02:20 <AndyS> ack me
16:02:26 <AndyS> andys: test suite?
16:02:47 <AndyS> guus: I believe we do not need 2LC
16:03:51 <AndyS> ... we are in a position to ask for CR when responds come in.
16:03:56 <AndyS> ... test suite
16:04:06 <AndyS> ... needed for CR
16:04:35 <AndyS> ericP: test suite -- original submission had some tests.
16:05:27 <ivan> q+
16:05:28 <AndyS> ... in SPARQL - separate test doc - inputs, outputs, there is N-triples as a reference
16:05:42 <AndyS> ... in SPARQL - separate test doc .  For TTL, inputs, outputs, there is N-triples as a reference
16:06:19 <Guus> ack ivan
16:06:23 <AndyS> q+ to suggest splitting into syntax (yes/no) and triple output
16:07:21 <AndyS> ivan: may be tricky to get an impl report because already widely deployed so not really watching closely.  They will update later, not during W3C process
16:07:33 <Guus> ack AndyS
16:07:33 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to suggest splitting into syntax (yes/no) and triple output
16:08:39 <gavinc> +q to NOT specify in the tests what to do for invalidity 
16:08:47 <AndyS> andys: Jena will run the tests.
16:09:05 <Guus> ack gavin
16:09:05 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to NOT specify in the tests what to do for invalidity
16:09:10 <gavinc> +q to NOT specify in the tests what to do for invalidity 
16:09:28 <Guus> ack gavin
16:09:28 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to NOT specify in the tests what to do for invalidity
16:09:29 <AndyS> ack gavinc
16:10:02 <AndyS> gavinc: want to be loose to be outside bad TTL and do recovery or graceful non-spec usage
16:10:29 <patH> Whoa. I think having optional recovery is a BAD idea.
16:11:08 <patH> There are lots of published warnings about how this ruins interoperability and leads to nonstandard-creep.
16:11:29 <patH> I vote AGAINST this.
16:11:34 <AndyS> sandro: describe in the conformance section - just need to be clear what the spec says
16:11:54 <patH> PLease record my negative vote.
16:12:05 <AndyS> path - we do not specify what the recovery is -- this is not fortran 4
16:12:06 <ericP> patH, i think you'd be content with the mechanics
16:12:47 <ericP> that is, the negative syntax tests are specifically not turtle, but you don't have to reject them all to be a conformant turtle parser
16:13:02 <AndyS> sandro: timescale? CR start end Oct?  For ISWC
16:13:12 <ericP> (having uttered that, i'm not confident that you'd agree with that)
16:13:40 <AndyS> ivan: exit crtieria? test organisation?
16:14:39 <AndyS> ... TPAC non-publish period
16:15:05 <AndyS> guus: chairs+team will sort out the timing
16:15:24 <AndyS> ... ericP and gavinc to complete actions in a timely fashion.
16:15:50 <AndyS> gavinc: will need help on test suite 
16:17:06 <AndyS> sandro: do we approve en mass?
16:17:14 <gkellogg> do you have a reference to the test suite?
16:17:55 <AndyS> ADJOURNED
16:17:56 <Zakim> -ivan
16:17:57 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:17:57 <Zakim> -tbaker
16:17:58 <Zakim> -Arnaud
16:17:58 <Zakim> -yvesr
16:17:58 <Zakim> -Souri
16:18:02 <Zakim> -EricP
16:18:06 <Zakim> -gkellogg
16:18:06 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
16:18:08 <Zakim> -gavinc
16:18:10 <Zakim> -zwu2
16:18:12 <Zakim> -PatH
16:18:14 <Zakim> -AZ
16:18:16 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:18:20 <Zakim> -AlexHall
16:18:27 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:18:28 <Zakim> -pchampin
16:18:30 <Zakim> -cgreer
16:18:32 <Zakim> -Guus
16:18:39 <AndyS> AndyS has left #rdf-wg
16:18:54 <Guus> trackbot, end meeting
16:18:54 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:18:54 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been AndyS, tbaker, gavinc, +31.20.598.aaaa, Guus, Sandro, yvesr, pchampin, cgreer, MacTed, ivan, AZ, pfps, Arnaud, +1.443.212.aabb, AlexHall,
16:18:57 <Zakim> ... +1.603.897.aacc, Souri, EricP, gkellogg, zwu2, PatH
16:19:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:19:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/10-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
16:19:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:19:03 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/10-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :
16:19:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: gavinc - send an ack to the comments list an di18n for 192 [1]
16:19:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/10-rdf-wg-irc#T15-42-58
16:19:03 <RRSAgent> ACTION: gavin -- respond for i18n 187 [2]
16:19:03 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/10/10-rdf-wg-irc#T15-49-12
# SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC.  DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW.  SRCLINESUSED=00000336