Chatlog 2012-09-12

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14:51:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:51:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-rdf-wg-irc
14:51:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:51:45 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:51:47 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
14:51:47 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:51:48 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:51:48 <trackbot> Date: 12 September 2012
14:52:36 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
14:53:21 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/I18n-Comments i18n comments
14:53:37 <gavinc> mmm
14:53:42 <gavinc> Zakim doesn't like me
14:54:21 <gavinc> Yeah, no can dial in
14:54:39 <gavinc> Anyone else having any luck dialing in vs being dialed?
14:56:51 <gavinc> Zakim, who is here?
14:56:51 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, gavinc
14:56:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, AndyS, yvesr, MacTed, danbri, mischat, ivan, manu1, manu, ericP, gavinc, davidwood, trackbot, sandro
14:56:57 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
14:56:57 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus
14:56:57 <ScottB> ScottB has joined #rdf-wg
14:57:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, AndyS, yvesr, MacTed, danbri, mischat, ivan, manu1, manu, ericP, gavinc, davidwood, trackbot, sandro
14:58:25 <manu1> Guus: regrets for today.
14:58:49 <manu1> Guus: JSON-LD status - We're working on the very last set of issues for the JSON-LD Syntax document, raised by the Drupal Community as they're trying to integrate JSON-LD with Drupal 8.
14:59:06 <Guus> OK, manu
14:59:21 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:23 <manu1> Guus: The JSON-LD API document has a bit more work on it, but we're getting close to a LC-ready document as well (1-2 months from now, hopefully?).
14:59:31 <Guus> will make sure this status update gets into the minutes
15:00:04 <manu1> There are really just two major issues left for the spec - property generator round-tripping, via the API and language map round-tripping via the API.
15:00:10 <AZ> Zakim, who is here?
15:00:10 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AZ
15:00:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfps, ScottB, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, AndyS, yvesr, MacTed, danbri, mischat, ivan, manu1, manu, ericP, gavinc, davidwood, trackbot, sandro
15:00:13 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:29 <danbri> regrets from me (I'm on another call)
15:00:40 <manu1> Issues status of JSON-LD Syntax: https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues?milestone=2&page=1&sort=updated&state=open
15:00:48 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
15:00:48 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus
15:00:49 <Zakim> On IRC I see Arnaud, pfps, ScottB, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, AndyS, yvesr, MacTed, danbri, mischat, ivan, manu1, manu, ericP, gavinc, davidwood, trackbot, sandro
15:01:01 <manu1> Issues status of JSON-LD API: https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues?milestone=1&page=1&sort=updated&state=open
15:01:02 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:34 <Guus> zakim, this is rdf
15:01:34 <Zakim> ok, Guus; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
15:01:40 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
<Arnaud> GUEST: Bernadette Hyland, 3 Round Stones
15:01:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, EricP, gavinc, [IBM], ??P3, Bernadette Hyland, [OpenLink], Tony, ??P11, Arnaud
15:01:43 <MacTed> Zakim, this is rdfwg
15:01:43 <Zakim> MacTed, this was already SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
15:01:43 <Zakim> ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
15:01:53 <AndyS> zakim, ??P11 is me
15:01:53 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:01:56 <MacTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me
15:01:58 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:01:58 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:01:59 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:01:59 <ScottB> Zakim, Tony is temporarily me
15:02:01 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:02:02 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:03 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:02:05 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:02:11 <Zakim> +ScottB; got it
15:02:26 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aaaa
15:02:31 <AlexHall> zakim, aaaa is me
15:02:31 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
15:02:35 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
15:02:46 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gavinc (4%), Guus (39%), EricP (94%), Ivan (5%)
15:03:03 <AndyS> Some real examples of what changes will help (for mere mortals)
15:03:12 <AZ> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, EricP, gavinc, [IBM], ??P3, Bernadette Hyland, MacTed (muted), ScottB, AndyS, Arnaud, Ivan, AlexHall
15:03:26 <AZ> zakim, ??P3 is me
15:03:26 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
15:03:28 <Zakim> +PatH
15:03:31 <Guus> arnaud: are you happy to scribe?
15:03:56 <Arnaud> well, "happy" might be asking for a bit much :-)
15:03:59 <Arnaud> but yes, I can do it
15:04:05 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/PER-xml-20080205/#charsets
15:04:07 <Guus> thx :-)
15:04:30 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-xml-20081126/
15:04:37 <Arnaud> scribe: arnaud
15:04:57 <Arnaud> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.09.12
15:05:37 <Arnaud> topic: minutes of last week
15:05:43 <MacTed> Arnaud - yes, the bots are active
15:06:07 <Arnaud> RESOLUTION: minutes accepted by consensus
15:06:26 <Arnaud> TOPIC: review of action items
15:06:43 <gavinc> There is a box on Turtle tests
15:07:14 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:08:27 <Arnaud> guus: next teleconf is next week
15:08:45 <Arnaud> TOPIC: turtle
15:09:15 <Arnaud> gavinc: two kinds of major LC comments
15:09:36 <sandro> Currently registered for TPAC:  richard, ivan, david, guus, fabien, eric, yves, arnaud, steve, sandro.
15:09:50 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/I18n-Comments
15:10:01 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/I18n-Comments i18n comments
15:10:20 <Arnaud> gavinc: most I18n comments are editorial
15:11:17 <Arnaud> gavinc: 179, 184, and 187 are more interesting
15:11:36 <ericP> 179 - i.e. @lang
15:11:52 <Arnaud> gavinc: proposes to reject 179
15:13:14 <Arnaud> gavinc: the problem is what you do with the default
15:13:26 <mlnt> mlnt has joined #rdf-wg
15:14:25 <AndyS> I don't see why you'd want this feature.
15:14:32 <Zakim> -AndyS
15:14:33 <Arnaud> guus: please, post draft response to the list before making a decision
15:14:51 <ivan> q+
15:14:55 <Zakim> +??P11
15:15:02 <AndyS> zakim, ??P11 is me
15:15:02 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:15:14 <Guus> ack ivan
15:15:21 <Zakim> +??P28
15:15:42 <mlnt> zakim, ??P28 is mlnt
15:15:42 <Zakim> +mlnt; got it
15:16:31 <Arnaud> ivan: one of the major problems with this is how do I encode an xstring without a language tag?
15:17:11 <sandro> eric: if you use global @lang, then you can't produce simple literals (pre RDF 1.1) and that's okay.
15:17:16 <davidwood> ericP: I suggest you contact Boris Villazo
15:17:27 <Arnaud> guus: proposal is to deny the request, haven't heard anyone disagree
15:17:46 <Arnaud> ericP would like to investigate this further
15:17:59 <AndyS> users already find lang tag confusing - this makes it worse.
15:18:10 <davidwood> n-Terrazas, Ontology Engineering Group, Universidad Politecnica de Madrid
15:18:16 <davidwood> re Turtle with language tags
15:18:17 <AndyS> see lots of questions about dbpedia on misc forums
15:18:53 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:19:14 <Zakim> +??P29
15:19:14 <AndyS> IF this is done, suggest   "foo"@    # has default lang.
15:20:52 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
15:20:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, EricP, gavinc, [IBM], AZ, Bernadette Hyland, MacTed (muted), ScottB, Arnaud, Ivan, AlexHall, PatH, Sandro, AndyS, mlnt, pchampin
15:20:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see pchampin, mlnt, AlexHall, PatH, Arnaud, pfps, ScottB, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, AndyS, yvesr, MacTed, danbri, mischat, ivan, manu1, manu, ericP, gavinc, davidwood,
15:20:55 <Zakim> ... trackbot, sandro
15:21:22 <ericP> q?
15:22:43 <PatH> ericP, je n'sais pas, mais c'est possible.
15:22:56 <Arnaud> Arnaud Le Hors: :)
15:24:26 <Arnaud> guus: moving on to 184
15:24:30 <danbri_> danbri_ has joined #rdf-wg
15:25:29 <Arnaud> ericp: let's talk about 187 first
15:25:46 <AndyS> AndyS: SPARQL is a copy of XML edition N at the time (IIRC)
15:26:04 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-xml-20060816/#charsets         4th ed characters
15:26:07 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-xml-20081126/#charsets         5th ed characters
15:26:15 <ericP> NT-NameStartChar
15:26:43 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/REC-xml-20060816/#NT-Letter
15:26:50 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-xml-20081126/#NT-NameStartChar
15:28:13 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:29:48 <Arnaud> davidwood: this should have been raised against SPARQL, this is too late
15:32:16 <Arnaud> andys: we need a reason to do differently from xml
15:32:44 <Arnaud> ericp: this presumes we are doing the same as xml, which I think we are
15:33:41 <Arnaud> ericp: this applies to the other comments as well
15:33:55 <patH> patH has joined #rdf-wg
15:34:04 <gavinc> From I18N: use \u{xxxxx} instead of \uxxxx or \Uxxxxxxxx 
15:34:27 <danbri> danbri has joined #rdf-wg
15:34:45 <gavinc> From me: No, do what C, C#, C++, Python and others do.
15:37:47 <gavinc> It's a 2nd Last Call
15:38:28 <ericP> use \u{xx xx xxx xx}
15:38:40 <gavinc> ericP, add \u{xxxxx} to our existing \uXXXX \UXXXXXXXX escapes
15:39:18 <Arnaud> ericp: thinks this is a small addition and is worth doing
15:39:52 <ivan> q+
15:40:04 <Arnaud> guus: wonders whether this is the right thing to do given that we are in last call
15:40:07 <Guus> ack ivan
15:40:36 <Arnaud> ivan: concerns with new feature coming in will create problems getting through CR
15:41:42 <gavinc> +q to ask who is interested in \u{xxxxx}
15:41:46 <Arnaud> sandro: if we have enough support this may not be an issue
15:42:16 <AndyS> I read it as a helpful suggestion from i18n (to a new language)
15:43:32 <Arnaud> guus: what about the comment that examples are culturally bias?
15:43:53 <Arnaud> davidwood: use another currency than $
15:44:28 <Arnaud> gavinc: thinks can address this
15:44:48 <gavinc> -q
15:45:25 <Arnaud> guus: what about inverse property?
15:46:51 <patH> nice//useful
15:47:54 <Arnaud> sandro: there won't be another Turtle, it would have to be something else, so this is our last chance
15:48:14 <Arnaud> guus: would like a proposal
15:48:31 <Arnaud> gavinc: one proposal from one editor is to do nothing
15:48:51 <Arnaud> strawpoll: proposal is to do nothing
15:48:52 <sandro> PROPOSED: Do Nothing   (on inverse propoerties in turtle)
15:48:59 <sandro> +0.5
15:48:59 <gavinc> +1
15:49:06 <pfps> +1
15:49:07 <AndyS> +1
15:49:08 <davidwood> +0.5
15:49:09 <patH> -0.5
15:49:10 <AZ> +0.5
15:49:11 <mlnt> +0.5
15:49:11 <ericP> -0
15:49:16 <ivan> +1
15:49:17 <Arnaud> Arnaud Le Hors: +1
15:49:18 <MacTed> +0
15:49:21 <AlexHall> +1
15:49:50 <Arnaud> resolution: accepted: do nothing
15:49:59 <patH> I sadly agree.
15:50:15 <Guus> this is not a resolution yet :-)
15:50:22 <Arnaud> Arnaud Le Hors: ok :)
15:53:00 <MacTed> s/resolution: accepted/straw poll: accepted/
15:53:07 <Arnaud> TOPIC: Graphs
15:54:23 <Zakim> -Guus
15:54:45 <Arnaud> guus: re: issue-21, seems like we now have consensus
15:55:04 <Guus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Sep/0056.html
15:55:14 <Guus> Richard's message about ISSUE 21
15:55:23 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: When you use the same blank node identifier (like _:x) two different  places in a TriG document, the identifier refers to the same blank node.
15:55:23 <patH> quick, lets decide this before Richard gets back....
15:56:32 <MacTed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Sep/0059.html
15:56:33 <MacTed> I think
15:56:53 <Guus> can you hear me?
15:56:57 <gavinc> Richard:  Although we perhaps should start with another vote on the ISSUE-21 proposal we had on the table this week. As I said in [1], I am now confident that the underlying issue (When are two blank nodes the same and when are they not?) can be solved by tweaking the definitions of blank nodes and/or graph stores, regardless of the decision we take on ISSUE-21.
15:57:07 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:57:07 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
15:57:15 <patH> guus, no we cant
15:57:18 <Guus> I have to dial in again
15:57:26 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:57:26 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:57:30 <Guus> can someone take over for a moment?
15:57:41 <sandro> Guus, Eric is chairing
15:57:48 <davidwood> There is also this from Richard, which points to the one above: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Sep/0059.html
15:58:29 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:48 <sandro> cygri, you dialing in?   we're on issue-21.
15:58:56 <ericP> cygri, we were about to vote on the most recent text of the proposal for resolving issue 21
15:59:08 <Zakim> +Guus
15:59:09 <cygri> yes
15:59:32 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
15:59:47 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me
15:59:48 <ericP> Zakim, mhausenblas has richard
15:59:54 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
15:59:55 <Zakim> sorry, ericP, I do not recognize a party named 'mhausenblas'
16:00:59 <sandro> <Arnaud> PROPOSED: When you use the same blank node identifier (like _:x) two different  places in a TriG document, the identifier refers to the same blank node.
16:01:26 <sandro> (and it closes ISSUE-21.)
16:01:26 <cygri> ISSUE-21?
16:01:26 <trackbot> ISSUE-21 -- Can Node-IDs be shared between parts of a quad/multigraph format? -- open
16:01:26 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/21
16:02:00 <Arnaud> guus: richard, can you live with this?
16:02:46 <Arnaud> cygri: satisfied a solution can be found with this proposal
16:03:13 <Arnaud> cygri: still need to figure out the syntax
16:04:01 <Arnaud> cygi: assuming trig or n-quad syntax then I'm ok with this
16:04:09 <Arnaud> s/cygi/cygri/
16:04:13 <sandro> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-21 saying Yes, Node IDs are document scope in the multi-graph syntax (TriG, etc)
16:04:24 <Zakim> -pchampin
16:04:38 <MacTed> +1
16:04:40 <sandro> +1
16:04:40 <ivan> +1
16:04:41 <cygri> +1
16:04:41 <davidwood> +1
16:04:41 <ericP> +1
16:04:44 <pfps> =0
16:04:44 <AZ> +1
16:04:44 <patH> +1
16:04:45 <Arnaud> Arnaud Le Hors: +1
16:04:45 <mlnt> +1
16:04:46 <zwu2> 0
16:04:48 <gavinc> +0
16:04:54 <AndyS> +1
16:04:55 <pfps> 0
16:05:02 <AlexHall> +1
16:05:23 <sandro> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-21 saying Yes, Node IDs are document scope in the multi-graph syntax (TriG, etc)
16:05:28 <patH> :-)
#16:06:16 <Arnaud> TOPIC: JSON-LD
16:06:27 <patH> that is a metaissue.  needs a new semantics.
16:06:28 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
16:06:28 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-rdf-wg-irc#T16-06-28
16:06:44 <Arnaud> TOPIC: Dataset semantics
16:08:10 <patH> sorry. I will respond to it later today. Basically I am positive ewith some reservations.
16:08:24 <Arnaud> AZ: believe we're close to consensus but need to hear from several people: pat, sandro
16:09:27 <cygri> q+
16:10:05 <Arnaud> patH: one problem is that you can't tell what isn't in a named graph
16:11:03 <ericP> q+ to ask if i can know what would be the result of a SPARQL query with this definition
16:11:09 <gavinc> I agree with PatH, this is a strange feeling mostly as I think I understand what PatH is saying
16:11:15 <AZ> zakim, who's noisy?
16:11:18 <cygri> see here for some ramifications: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/Minimal-dataset-semantics#Indirection_between_graph_name_and_graph
16:11:24 <Arnaud> patH: not an objection to the proposal but a request to make that clear in the document
16:11:25 <Zakim> AZ, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [IBM] (14%), Bernadette Hyland(56%)
16:11:46 <AndyS> Any proposed text for clarification?
16:11:54 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:11:54 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:11:57 <gavinc> YES! NO SIGNING NAMES! :D
16:12:09 <Arnaud> patH: if someone else assert a triple is in that graph, I can't say anything about that
16:12:10 <Guus> q?
16:12:55 <sandro> q+
16:13:49 <ivan> ack cygri 
16:14:09 <Guus> ack cygri
16:14:26 <Arnaud> cygri: agrees this needs to be clarified
16:14:34 <patH> q+
16:15:00 <ivan> ack ericP 
16:15:01 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask if i can know what would be the result of a SPARQL query with this definition
16:15:22 <Arnaud> ericP: wants to make sure the result of a query over one of these graphs would be defined
16:15:23 <gavinc> Yes, SPARQL will work.
16:15:51 <Guus> request to extend for 5 min (at the most)
16:16:10 <cygri> q+
16:16:20 <Arnaud> ericP: can if I find if a particular triple is in a graph?
16:16:24 <MacTed> and we're back to mutable vs non-mutable...
16:16:35 <cygri> q+ to say, yes you can if your query language works on the abstract syntax like SPARQL
16:17:35 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
16:18:22 <cygri> q-
16:18:27 <Arnaud> AZ: sparql query uses simple entailment, queries against a named graph return what you would get by applying the ??
16:18:29 <Guus> ack sandro
16:18:40 <Arnaud> ericp: happy to hear that
16:18:54 <patH> q+ to say in response to richard that my point was not about the issue in DD4 but rather the one in DD5.
16:18:57 <cygri> q+ to ask what our list of “official” use cases is
16:19:08 <Arnaud> sandro: needs more concrete use cases to understand
16:19:08 <patH> q-
16:19:35 <cygri> q-
16:19:52 <sandro> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-spaces/index.html#use-cases
16:19:54 <Arnaud> guus: suggests we get back to this next week
16:20:02 <Guus> ack PatH
16:20:20 <AZ> zakim, who's noisy?
<Arnaud> TOPIC: JSON-LD
16:20:25 <Guus> From Manu: JSON-LD status - We're working on the very last set of issues for the JSON-LD Syntax document, raised by the Drupal Community as they're trying to integrate JSON-LD with Drupal 8. The JSON-LD API document has a bit more work on it, but we're getting close to a LC-ready document as well (1-2 months from now, hopefully?). There are really just two major issues left for the spec - property generator round-tripping, via the API and language map round-trip
16:20:31 <Zakim> AZ, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: MacTed (37%), AndyS (16%), Guus (73%), EricP (5%)
16:20:36 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:20:36 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:20:41 <Zakim> -ScottB
16:20:44 <Arnaud> guus: meeting adjourned
16:20:45 <MacTed> ciao
16:20:47 <Zakim> -PatH
16:20:48 <Zakim> -[IBM]
16:20:49 <Zakim> -cygri
16:20:51 <Zakim> -gavinc
16:20:52 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:20:53 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:20:54 <Zakim> -AlexHall
16:20:55 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:20:55 <Zakim> -AZ
16:20:57 <Zakim> -Arnaud
16:20:57 <Zakim> -Bernadette Hyland
16:20:59 <Zakim> -mlnt
16:21:01 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:21:03 <Zakim> -EricP
16:21:09 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
16:21:23 <Guus> trackbot, end meeting
16:21:23 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:21:23 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Guus, EricP, gavinc, [IBM], Bernadette Hyland, Arnaud, AndyS, MacTed, Ivan, ScottB, +1.443.212.aaaa, AlexHall, AZ, PatH, Sandro, mlnt, pchampin,
16:21:26 <Zakim> ... cygri
16:21:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:21:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/09/12-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
16:21:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:21:32 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
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