Chatlog 2012-04-04

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15:03:03 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:03 <RRSAgent> logging to
15:03:09 <sandro> trackbot, start meeting
15:03:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:03:13 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
15:03:13 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
15:03:14 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:03:14 <trackbot> Date: 04 April 2012
15:03:16 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
15:03:16 <Zakim> I notice SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has restarted
15:03:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P0, Guus, +1.408.996.aaaa, David_Wood, ??P10, Sandro, Ivan
15:03:17 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Guus, SteveH, yvesr, pchampin, AZ, mischat, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, Arnaud1, danbri, davidwood, manu, manu1, mdmdm_, NickH, trackbot, sandro,
15:03:18 <Zakim> ... ericP
15:03:20 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aabb
15:03:32 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:34 <gavinc> Zakim, aabb is me
15:03:34 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it
15:03:35 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P0 is me
15:03:36 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
15:03:38 <Arnaud1> zakim, aaaa is me
15:03:38 <Zakim> +Arnaud1; got it
15:03:56 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
15:03:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, Guus, Arnaud1, David_Wood, ??P10, Sandro, Ivan, gavinc
15:03:58 <AZ> zakim, aaaa is me
15:03:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see PatH, RRSAgent, Zakim, Guus, SteveH, yvesr, pchampin, AZ, mischat, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, Arnaud, danbri, davidwood, manu, manu1, mdmdm_, NickH, trackbot, sandro,
15:03:59 <Zakim> ... ericP
15:03:59 <Zakim> sorry, AZ, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:04:42 <Zakim> +PatH
15:04:49 <AZ> zakim, ??P10 is me
15:04:49 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
15:05:17 <PatH> zakim, mute me
15:05:17 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
15:05:35 <Zakim> + +1.781.273.aacc
15:05:50 <MacTed> Zakim, aacc is OpenLink_Software
15:05:50 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it
15:05:55 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:05:55 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:05:59 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:05:59 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:06:03 <cgreer> cgreer has joined #rdf-wg
15:06:11 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:06:11 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
15:06:22 <ivan> zakim, mute me
15:06:22 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
15:06:45 <Zakim> + +1.707.318.aadd
15:07:42 <gavinc> Sebastopol! Forever!
15:08:12 <Guus> zakim, +1.707 is cgreer
15:08:12 <Zakim> +cgreer; got it
15:09:12 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:09:18 <zwu2> zakim, code?
15:09:18 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, zwu2
15:09:23 <MacTed> scribenick: MacTed
15:09:49 <MacTed> PROPOSED: accept minutes of 2012-03-28,
15:09:57 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aaee
15:09:59 <MacTed> RESOLVED: accept minutes of 2012-03-28,
15:10:11 <zwu2> zakim, +1.650.265.aaee is me
15:10:11 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
15:10:16 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:10:17 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
15:10:17 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
15:10:18 <MacTed> TOPIC: Action Items
15:10:38 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aaff
15:10:48 <AlexHall> zakim, aaff is me
15:10:48 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
15:13:54 <MacTed> TOPIC: Turtle LC 
15:15:04 <Zakim> +EricP
15:15:18 <Zakim> -EricP
15:16:38 <MacTed> [[ colon-related actions taken, followup expected on list ]]
15:17:15 <MacTed> TOPIC: Turtle LC intermediate comments,
15:17:52 <Zakim> +EricP
15:18:23 <MacTed> Gavin: summarizing main issues...  consistency and import of whether N-Triples is defined as a subset of Turtle, or Turtle is defined an extension of N-Triples
15:18:29 <pchampin_> pchampin_ has joined #rdf-wg
15:19:58 <MacTed> Eric: initially tried to write with more distinction between Turtle being distinct from N-Triples, but it became easier to write with a blur
15:20:22 <MacTed> s/Turtle being distinct from N-Triples/Turtle and N-Triples/
15:21:45 <MacTed> ... priority is to make spec explicit for parsers and implementers, but also try to be nice and make something readable for authors
15:24:44 <MacTed> [[ discussion of which really takes priority ... ]]
15:25:47 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:28:19 <MacTed> [[ discussion about title and thus doc focus -- perhaps Turtle with N-Triples as appendix/chapter? ]]
15:29:07 <Arnaud> q+
15:30:15 <Guus> rnaudack 
15:30:25 <Guus> ack Arnaud
15:30:27 <MacTed> Arnaud: agrees we should focus on Turtle, and introduce N-Triples at the end
15:31:21 <Guus> q?
15:31:23 <sandro> +1 call it "simple statement", etc, and then later say n-triples == simple statements, simple terms.
15:31:31 <zwu2> simple is good
15:31:33 <zwu2> :)
15:31:54 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:32:10 <MacTed> Guus: call for any other points from review needing discussion
15:32:39 <gavinc>
15:33:07 <MacTed> gavinc: "5.3 Escape Sequences" needs touch
15:34:21 <MacTed> [[ quick discussion resolved ]]
15:34:49 <MacTed> gavinc: no qname defined for Turtle... do we need one?
15:34:52 <Zakim> -PatH
15:34:56 <gavinc>
15:35:22 <PatH> Im still on IRC, will call back on phone. 
15:35:58 <MacTed> ... why are we defining an XML namespace for Turtle?
15:36:00 <ivan> q+
15:36:37 <ivan> ack ivan 
15:36:50 <ivan>
15:37:08 <gavinc>
15:37:25 <MacTed> ivan: there is a URI to identify the format, ... is that what we're talking about?
15:38:03 <MacTed> gavinc: submission defined format URI, as well as XML namespace and localname.  still wondering why the latter are there.
15:38:34 <ericP> <someDoc xmlns:ttl=""><ttl:Turtle>...</ttl:Turtle></someDoc>
15:38:37 <ericP> ?
15:38:49 <gavinc> The XML (Namespace name, Local name) pair that identifies the Turtle language is:
15:38:51 <gavinc>   Namespace:
15:38:52 <gavinc>   Local name: turtle
15:38:54 <gavinc> The suggested namespace prefix is ttl (informative) which would make this ttl:turtle as an XML QName.
15:39:08 <MacTed> gavinc: any objections to removing XML namespace and localname?
15:39:31 <MacTed> PROPOSAL: remove XML namespace and localname definitions (from 2004 draft) from current doc 
15:39:36 <gavinc> +!
15:39:39 <Guus> +1
15:39:39 <ericP> PROPOSED: remove XML namespace and localname from Turtle
15:39:40 <gavinc> +1
15:40:05 <MacTed> RESOLVED: remove XML namespace and localname definitions (from 2004 draft) from current doc
15:41:15 <MacTed> TOPIC: Turtle LC planning
15:42:41 <MacTed> [[ do we need another draft round?  or will LC be next output? ]]
15:43:33 <MacTed> [[ rough consensus that this round of editorial ToDo will result in LC-ready draft, but timing probably pushes back ]]
15:45:12 <Guus> zakim, who ishere?
15:45:12 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, Guus.
15:45:24 <Zakim> +PatH
15:45:29 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:45:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, Guus, Arnaud1 (muted), David_Wood, AZ, Sandro, Ivan, gavinc, MacTed, cgreer, zwu2 (muted), AlexHall, EricP, PatH
15:45:32 <Zakim> On IRC I see pchampin, AlexHall, zwu2, cgreer, PatH, RRSAgent, Zakim, Guus, SteveH, yvesr, AZ, mischat, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, Arnaud, danbri, davidwood, manu, manu1, mdmdm_,
15:45:32 <Zakim> ... NickH, trackbot, sandro, ericP
15:45:39 <pchampin> I'm on IRC, but I can't manage to dial in :-(
15:45:43 <PatH> zakim, mute me
15:45:43 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
15:45:58 <pchampin> I confirm: *I* volunteeded to review the turtle document, not Antoine...
15:46:55 <ericP> pchampin, andy's review has prompted a major re-write. to save frustration, you may as well wait for word that the doc is stable
15:47:11 <pchampin> no problem
15:47:50 <MacTed> TOPIC: aside, re JSON-LD... 
15:48:14 <MacTed> davidwood: JSON-LD spec has made much progress, no other WG has charter to deal with it
15:48:17 <gavinc> +0.5 for JSON-LD in this working group
15:48:22 <MacTed> Guus: we may revisit it soon
15:48:32 <MacTed> TOPIC: Named Graphs semantics 
15:49:24 <MacTed> Guus: current proposal on wiki is extra nice because it has lots of tests
15:50:41 <Zakim> -Arnaud1
15:51:06 <Guus>
15:52:12 <PatH> zakim, unmute me
15:52:12 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
15:52:55 <PatH> sandro, why do you want to impose this functionality?
15:53:19 <MacTed> sandro: most everyone agrees that Graph Names are unique within a data set.  less agreement that Graph Names are unique in the world.
15:53:19 <MacTed> ... if you're going to say something hasGraph it can *only* have *one* graph, regardless of context
15:54:37 <MacTed> PatH: could weaken that (or break it) and then be able to handle more cases
15:54:57 <Zakim> +Arnaud
15:57:40 <ericP> DB1 matches SELECT*{GRAPH <http://a.example/> {:Fido a :Dog}} while DB2 matches SELECT*{GRAPH <http://a.example/> {:Fido a :Dog, :Mammal}}
15:57:41 <MacTed> sandro: strawman proposal is that when you say graphName holds { triples }, that's a closed and complete list
15:59:34 <ivan> q+
16:00:10 <Guus> ack ivan
16:00:51 <MacTed> [[ discussion of strawmen ]]
16:01:00 <Guus> PatH: could be two snapshots of the same container
16:01:03 <ericP> q+ to characterize that restriction
16:01:13 <PatH> +1 to ivan
16:01:16 <MacTed> q+
16:01:34 <MacTed> ivan: restriction proposed seems entirely unenforceable
16:02:21 <MacTed> ... people *will* use same name for GRAPHs with different tripleset content
16:02:34 <PatH> if we make the  rules stiff, people will snap them.
16:02:36 <MacTed> ... (they *do* today)
16:03:30 <PatH> I will say that if Ivan doesnt.
16:03:55 <PatH> q+
16:04:12 <MacTed> sandro: they're saying "GRAPH contains" rather than "GRAPH is" "this data"
16:04:22 <ericP> what if we have two semantics?: high-semantics: make sure all names refer to the same thing, low: do what you want
16:04:23 <Guus> ack ericP
16:04:28 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to characterize that restriction
16:05:00 <Guus> q+ to ask about the current state of container
16:06:12 <MacTed> sandro: prefers simply high-semantics
16:06:28 <Guus> ack MacTed
16:06:29 <MacTed> MacTed: Gbox, Gsnap distinction seems lacking.  this discussion seems to blur the two.
16:07:00 <PatH> good point. 
16:08:30 <Guus> ack PatH
16:09:55 <MacTed> PatH: instincts are to support sandro.  problem is that there are lots of "lower" semantics which are internally consistent, but don't fit into strict CoolURI picture.
16:10:19 <SteveH> SteveH has joined #rdf-wg
16:11:23 <Guus> ack Guus
16:11:23 <Zakim> Guus, you wanted to ask about the current state of container
16:11:40 <cgreer> q+
16:12:24 <sandro> pat: q?
16:12:26 <sandro> q?
16:12:48 <MacTed> Guus: question...  URI of a graph container.  if I get two snapshots with two different sets of triples, they should have different labels?
16:12:57 <MacTed> sandro: change over time is a different question...
16:13:55 <Guus> ack cgreer
16:13:57 <gavinc> q?
16:14:21 <PatH> we could always start a new WG...
16:14:24 <ericP> q+ to say that there are use case examples which address time
16:14:27 <sandro> sandro: If we're going to talk about change-over-time, let's settle it for foaf:age *before* we try to settle it for dereference.
16:15:12 <MacTed> MacTed: time is just another axis of context.  it's all contextual.
16:15:39 <PatH> do i detect a certtain burnout?
16:15:48 <sandro> yes.    
16:15:50 <sandro> so done.
16:17:41 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:17:42 <Zakim> -PatH
16:17:44 <Zakim> -David_Wood
16:17:46 <Zakim> -AlexHall
16:17:46 <Zakim> -gavinc
16:17:47 <Zakim> -Arnaud
16:17:48 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
16:17:49 <Zakim> -AZ
16:17:51 <Zakim> -cgreer
16:17:57 <MacTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:17:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate MacTed
16:18:01 <MacTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:18:09 <Zakim> -zwu2
16:18:32 <Zakim> -yvesr