Chatlog 2012-03-07

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15:53:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:53:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/07-rdf-wg-irc
15:53:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:53:34 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
15:53:35 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:53:35 <trackbot> Date: 07 March 2012
15:53:54 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
15:54:05 <gavinc> Zakim, this is 73394
15:54:05 <Zakim> ok, gavinc; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
15:54:18 <gavinc> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:54:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P3, +1.707.861.aaaa
15:54:32 <gavinc> Zakim, aaaa is me
15:54:32 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it
15:56:21 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P3 is me
15:56:21 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
15:56:54 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
15:57:08 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:57:08 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:57:09 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:58:16 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:18 <Zakim> +pfps
16:00:11 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg
16:00:34 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll has joined #rdf-wg
16:00:36 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
16:00:36 <pchampin_> pchampin_ has joined #rdf-wg
16:00:49 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:00:50 <MacTed> Zakim, mute m
16:00:51 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:00:51 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:00:59 <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aabb
16:01:16 <Arnaud> zakim, aabb is me
16:01:16 <Zakim> +Arnaud; got it
16:01:33 <Zakim> +sandro
16:01:43 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
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16:02:02 <Zakim> +Guus
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16:02:52 <Zakim> + +1.415.586.aacc
16:02:53 <Zakim> + +1.707.318.aadd
16:02:54 <Zakim> +??P15
16:03:04 <cgreer> zakim,aadd is me
16:03:04 <Zakim> +cgreer; got it
16:03:12 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:04:18 <Zakim> +??P22
16:04:22 <AndyS> zakim, ??P22 is me
16:04:22 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
16:04:30 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
16:04:36 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aaee
16:04:55 <AlexHall> zakim, aaee is me
16:04:55 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
16:05:08 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
16:05:09 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
16:05:15 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
16:05:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, gavinc, Ivan, pfps, MacTed (muted), Arnaud (muted), sandro, Guus, cgreer, JeremyCarroll (muted), pchampin, AndyS, AlexHall
16:05:15 <zwu2> zakim, code?
16:05:17 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2
16:05:17 <Zakim> On IRC I see FabGandon, zwu2, AlexHall, AZ, pchampin, cgreer, Guus, JeremyCarroll, Arnaud, pfps, AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, gavinc, mischat, MacTed, LeeF, cygri, SteveH, AndyS1, ivan,
16:05:19 <Zakim> ... trackbot, davidwood, NickH, mdmdm, yvesr, manu, manu1, sandro, ericP
16:05:52 <pchampin> ok
16:06:07 <Zakim> +davidwood
16:06:08 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aaff
16:06:16 <zwu2> zakim, +1.650.265.aaff is me
16:06:16 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
16:06:20 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:06:20 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
16:06:39 <Zakim> +[Sophia]
16:06:50 <FabGandon> Zakim, Sophia is me.
16:06:50 <Zakim> +FabGandon; got it
16:07:24 <pchampin> topic: admin
16:07:35 <pchampin> subtopic: last week's minute approval
16:07:42 <pchampin> guus: any objection?
16:07:44 <davidwood> scribenick: pchampin
16:07:56 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-29
16:08:05 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aagg
16:08:06 <Zakim> +LeeF
16:08:25 <Zakim> + +1.646.434.aahh
16:08:33 <pchampin> guus: no objection, approved
16:08:43 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
16:09:03 <AZ> zakim, aahh is me
16:09:03 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
16:09:04 <pchampin> subtopic: open action review
16:09:54 <pchampin> antoine: re ACTION-149, I sent an email about it
16:10:16 <pchampin> guus: marking it as done
16:10:33 <pchampin> ... any progress to report on other actions?
16:10:44 <pchampin> sandro: not on mine, sorry
16:10:53 <FabGandon> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-xml/index.html#
16:11:06 <AZ> email of my action http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Mar/0038.html
16:11:11 <pchampin> fabien: the URI above is the current version of the RDF/XML spec
16:11:27 <pchampin> ... I ported it to respec
16:11:37 <Zakim> +EricP
16:12:19 <pchampin> ... how can I make sure I don't forget any modification that ought to be done?
16:12:50 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/errata#rdf-syntax-grammar errata
16:13:28 <pchampin> ivan: above is the URL of an errata document I collected over the years
16:13:59 <pchampin> guus: this is also referred by ISSUE-6
16:14:10 <pchampin> subtopic: light-saving time
16:14:28 <pchampin> guus: for the following two weeks, the telecons will be one hour sooner in Europe,
16:14:47 <pchampin> ... due to earlier light-saving time in the US
16:15:34 <pchampin> subtopic: FTF3
16:15:42 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2012/10/TPAC/  29 October - 2 November 2012 Lyon, France
16:16:10 <gavinc> Oh lovely, over halloweenen again?
16:16:22 <davidwood> ISWC  in Boston, 11-15 Nov.
16:16:28 <sandro> http://iswc2012.semanticweb.org/   November 11-15   Boston, USA
16:16:37 <pchampin> ivan: TPAC begins 2 weeks earlier than ISWC, should not clash
16:16:47 <gavinc> Geee, another F2F in Europe?
16:17:05 <davidwood> You didn't need to go last time :)
16:17:10 <pchampin> guus: should we organise FTF3 during TPAC?
16:17:21 <AndyS> Last time it was officially in Boston.
16:17:33 <pchampin> sandro: this is usually a good thing to have a FTF during TPAC
16:17:40 <AndyS> ... just larger in London :-)
16:17:52 <pchampin> ivan: we could convince the Provenance WG to meet with us, which would also be a good thing
16:19:18 <pchampin> david: are we sure we do not want to meet before november?
16:20:53 <pchampin> ... I would propose to have a task-force meeting in the meantime in Boston to make a decision about the Graph question
16:21:10 <pchampin> ivan: would exclude a lot of people, though, as finding a budget for a TF meeting would be harder
16:21:52 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
16:22:03 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Arnaud (10%), Guus (24%), davidwood (51%), Ivan (18%)
16:22:04 <pchampin> david: even a few people can make good progress
16:22:09 <pchampin> ... and then make a proposal to the WG
16:23:18 <MacTed> I'm sitting in noisy construction environment today ... but I agree with David's informal task force idea
16:23:37 <MacTed> the whiteboard scribbling after adjournment was valuable time
16:23:43 <gavinc> I agree with informal/formal task force idea
16:24:34 <davidwood> WWW2012 http://www2012.wwwconference.org/ 16-20 April in Lyon
16:25:17 <pchampin> guus: the current proposition is to hold FTF3 at TPAC, unless someone objects in the following week
16:25:23 <AndyS> Who wants to be in the task force?
16:25:52 <pchampin> arnaud: what happened to the proposal to have FTF3 in Sophia after WWW?
16:25:58 <pchampin> guus: it seems to be too early
16:26:06 <ericP> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes
16:26:08 <ericP> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapesB
16:26:11 <pchampin> topic: Tutle
16:26:33 <pchampin> eric: I wrote two versions (URIs above)
16:27:05 <pchampin> ... the first one is what was there before
16:27:27 <pchampin> ... the second one defines different kind of escape sequences, then specifies which is usable where
16:27:52 <pchampin> ... the second answers to Andy's proposal, but I prefer the first one
16:27:59 <pchampin> andy: I can live with the first one
16:28:03 <MacTed> I actually find B much clearer...
16:28:08 <sandro> I like B too
16:28:08 <ericP> +1
16:29:01 <ivan> q+
16:29:19 <Guus> ack ivan
16:29:24 <MacTed> +1 ivan & sandro
16:29:36 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:29:36 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:29:54 <pchampin> sandro: I prefer the 2nd one; with the first one, I lose track
16:30:00 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:30:00 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:30:13 <pchampin> ivan: agree with sandro
16:30:19 <pchampin> MacTed: agree with sandro
16:30:34 <pchampin> guus: eric, would you be happy with the 2nd option?
16:30:36 <pchampin> eric: yes
16:31:48 <ivan> PROPOSED: take the 'B' version to solve issue-67
16:31:50 <Guus> ISSUE 67 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/67
16:31:58 <gavinc> ISSUE-74?
16:31:58 <trackbot> ISSUE-74 -- Prefixed names and slashes -- open
16:31:58 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/74
16:32:53 <pchampin> gavin: I think that this covers ISSUE-74 as well (see above)
16:32:56 <ivan> +1
16:33:04 <pchampin> ivan: let's first solve ISSUE-67
16:33:09 <pchampin> pchampin: +1
16:33:15 <MacTed> +1
16:33:21 <ivan> RESOLVED: take the 'B' version to solve issue-67
16:33:23 <AndyS> +1
16:33:25 <zwu2> +1
16:33:25 <yvesr> +1
16:34:46 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products/3
16:35:58 <pchampin> guus: as we just solved ISSUE-67, there are 3 issues left regarding Turtle: ISSUE-4, ISSUE-73, ISSUE-74
16:36:08 <davidwood> q+ to discuss references to ISSUE-4 in the Turtle draft
16:36:28 <pchampin> ISSUE-4?
16:36:28 <trackbot> ISSUE-4 -- Do we depecate N-Triples and use Turtle instead? -- open
16:36:28 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/4
16:37:23 <pchampin> gavin: we considered defining N-Triples inside the Turtle document, but this was never resolved
16:37:56 <pchampin> ... see now section 11 in the Turtle document
16:38:09 <pchampin> david: I think there is a conflation of what issue 4 means
16:38:21 <pchampin> ... deprecating is not the same as folding it in the Turtle document
16:38:38 <zwu2> N-TRIPLES are used in production, it is not a good idea to deprecate it
16:38:38 <pchampin> ... those are two different questions
16:38:43 <ivan> q+
16:38:47 <ivan> ack davidwood 
16:38:48 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to discuss references to ISSUE-4 in the Turtle draft
16:39:03 <pchampin> ... my answers would be "no" to deprecation, and "yes" to including it
16:39:09 <AndyS> (1) Keep N-triples (2) one doc or two - don't care.
16:40:13 <zwu2> q+
16:40:18 <ivan> q-
16:40:29 <Souri> Same as Andy: (1) Keep N-triples (2) one doc or two - don't care.
16:41:26 <pchampin> guus: wasn't there an objection from Oracle about merging N-Triple with Turtle, regarding UTF-8?
16:41:33 <pchampin> david: I think we had a resolution about it
16:41:51 <pchampin> ... btw, it would be good to have a place containing all the resolutions of the group
16:41:57 <pchampin> q+
16:42:08 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me
16:42:08 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted
16:42:44 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-08-31
16:42:54 <davidwood> Resolutions
16:42:54 <davidwood> 	1.	Create a UTF version of ntriples in the Turtle REC, while making clear that the ASCII version of ntriples is still acceptable for use.  ASCII ntriples would continue to live in the test cases document.  File extensions and media types should be in conformance to the proposal at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0170.html http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-08-31#resolution_1
16:44:34 <AndyS> Names : N-triples, N-triples-ascii     (on the wire::  application/n-triples;charset=ascii)
16:44:58 <pchampin> gavin: but then, what will we call N-Triples?
16:45:02 <sandro> +1 Andy
16:45:09 <JeremyCarroll> q+
16:45:17 <zwu2> q-
16:45:24 <pchampin> ... this is why the Turtle specs currently says "N prime" (which is a terrible name=
16:45:28 <pchampin> s/name=/name)/
16:45:31 <pchampin> q-
16:45:33 <sandro> Same-syntax-different-charset ?
16:46:36 <pchampin> jeremy: there is nothing wrong in calling them both N-Triples, as long as content-negociation correctly sorts it out
16:46:36 <davidwood> Interesting point, JeremyCarroll
16:46:39 <ivan> q+
16:46:40 <pchampin> q+
16:46:47 <ivan> ack JeremyCarroll 
16:46:51 <AndyS> +1 to Jeremy
16:46:56 <gavinc> +1
16:48:00 <AndyS> q+
16:48:03 <pchampin> ivan: we are forced to have chaset=utf-8 in the Turtle-UTF8 media type, because the default encoding for text/* media types is ASCII
16:48:11 <ivan> ack ivan 
16:48:13 <Guus> ack ivan
16:48:22 <Guus> ack pchampin
16:49:09 <Guus> ack AndyS
16:49:12 <AndyS> ack me
16:49:52 <gavinc> Current document, text/turtle, text/ntriples+turtle
16:49:59 <pchampin> pchampin: agree with Jeremy and Ivan; anyway, the media-types have to be different (as the media-type for N-triples-ascii is text/plain, historically)
16:50:21 <pchampin> andy: N-triples is hardly human readable, anyway
16:51:52 <gavinc> PREPOSAL N-Triple has content type 'application/ntriples' and uses the content type paramater charset with allowed values of utf-8 or ascii
16:52:11 <JeremyCarroll> +1
16:52:18 <gavinc> +1
16:52:19 <JeremyCarroll> s/PREPOSAL/PROPOSAL/
16:52:22 <JeremyCarroll> :)
16:52:57 <gavinc> s/paramater/parameter
16:53:23 <davidwood> s/paramater/parameter/
16:53:26 <pchampin> sandro: you can't say that n-triple is so unreadable that it does not belong to the text/* hierarchy
16:53:57 <ivan> q+
16:54:13 <pchampin> q+
16:54:23 <Guus> ack ivan
16:54:59 <davidwood> +1 to Ivan.  Displaying text/* in browsers is helpful.
16:55:12 <pchampin> ivan: for me, the fact that it belongs to the text/* hierarchy means that browsers can display the content without any additional application, contrarily to application/* content-types
16:55:20 <pchampin> pchampin: +1 to Ivan
16:55:23 <Guus> ack pchampin
16:55:30 <sandro> +1 text/* means I can use emacs on it.
16:55:33 <pchampin> jeremy: I think I disagree
16:55:43 <AndyS> text/html is not displayed as source
16:55:48 <gavinc> application/xml is editable in emacs 
16:56:01 <AZ_> AZ_ has joined #rdf-wg
16:56:05 <pchampin> ... think of XML; displaying the angle-brackets is not the best way to display it
16:56:06 <AndyS> Let's see what else is in text/*
16:56:25 <davidwood> JeremyCarroll, if we were to define a Content-Type for HTML today, I would argue for application/html
16:56:42 <davidwood> …for the reasons you stated.
16:57:11 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to summarize media type proposal with respect to turtle as well
16:57:13 <zwu2> q+
16:57:24 <pchampin> pchampin: no strong opinion about text vs. application
16:57:52 <pchampin> ... but for the moment the media type for n-triples is text/plain
16:57:59 <pchampin> ... would Oracle agree to change that?
16:58:40 <gavinc> +q
16:58:45 <Souri> +1 to Zhe's -1
16:58:49 <Guus> ack zwu
16:58:55 <AndyS> Surely, if "it" is served as text/plain it's ASCII as currently done
16:59:35 <pchampin> zwu: for us, N-Triple is in production, and should not change (neither charset not content-type)
17:00:38 <MacTed> N-Triples-ASCII is same as N-Triples (historic); is subset of N-Triples-UTF8
17:00:44 <JeremyCarroll> ack me
17:00:44 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to summarize media type proposal with respect to turtle as well
17:00:56 <Guus> ack JeremyCarroll
17:01:05 <Guus> ack gavinc
17:01:21 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll: with Gavin's proposal various documents have mutliple legal mimetypes
17:01:32 <AndyS> q+ to ask we spend some time on next steps to keep things moving over the week.
17:01:45 <Souri> q+
17:02:00 <pchampin> gavin: N-Triple was explicitly not intended to become a standard format
17:02:04 <AndyS> ack me
17:02:04 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask we spend some time on next steps to keep things moving over the week.
17:02:05 <zwu2> q+
17:02:06 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll: e.g. an ascii ntriples doc can be served as text/plain applicaiton/ntriples, ascii; alpplicaiton/ntriples utf8; text/turtle utf8
17:02:19 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to add to gavin's point
17:02:44 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: strong disagreement with Souri
17:02:49 <pfps> +1 to gavin - anyone can object to anything, and this is a serious bar to change, but certainly not an absolute bar
17:03:05 <ericP> q?
17:03:11 <Souri> q-
17:03:21 <Guus> ack zwu
17:03:23 <pchampin> souri: extending n-triple it is ok as soon as it maintaisn backward compatibility
17:03:35 <ericP> q+ to ask about rev'ing tools vs. rev'ing written data
17:04:12 <Guus> ack JeremyCarroll
17:04:12 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to add to gavin's point
17:04:16 <JeremyCarroll> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-testcases/#ntriples
17:04:49 <JeremyCarroll> NOTE : N-Triples is an RDF syntax for expressing RDF test cases and defining the correspondence between RDF/XML and the RDF abstract syntax. RDF/XML [RDF-SYNTAX] is the recommended syntax for applications to exchange RDF information.
17:05:52 <zwu2> q+
17:06:04 <pchampin> q+
17:06:44 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
17:06:44 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
17:07:38 <Souri> q+
17:07:56 <pfps> Further, there has been no previous attempt (that I am aware of) to promote n-triples to an interchange syntax.
17:08:02 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
17:08:02 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
17:08:10 <pchampin> jeremy: zwu and souri can not oppose to us a language that they used in a way that was explicitly discouraged by the spec
17:08:20 <sandro> ted: The retrofit is the responsibility of the implementor who did not read the standard.
17:08:34 <pchampin> zwu: but now, the market reality is here, we should take it into account
17:08:58 <pchampin> q?
17:09:20 <Guus> ack EricP
17:09:20 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask about rev'ing tools vs. rev'ing written data
17:09:50 <gavinc> N-Triples is excellent, lets make it a standard!
17:09:53 <davidwood> From the charter:  "The mission of the RDF Working Group, part of the Semantic Web Activity, is to update the 2004 version of the Resource Description Framework (RDF) Recommendation. The scope of work is to extend RDF to include some of the features that the community has identified as both desirable and important for interoperability based on experience with the 2004 version of the standard, but *without having a negative effect on existing deployment effort
17:09:57 <Souri> q-
17:10:01 <davidwood> Unfortunate or not
17:10:21 <AndyS> I have not seen any proposal that invalidates existing N-triples data.
17:10:29 <JeremyCarroll> +1 to AndyS
17:11:02 <davidwood> Well, yes, but the Content-Type would still be an issue beyond the data.
17:11:09 <sandro> Still...    what if there is old SOFTWARE ?   *it* will break on seeing the new N-Triples data.
17:11:18 <gavinc> Yes.
17:11:20 <pchampin> gavin: anything considered to be n-triples is acceptable by the Turtle grammar
17:11:26 <JeremyCarroll> old software will break on *any* change
17:11:33 <ericP> sandro, how's http://128.30.55.213/rdf/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes look to you?
17:11:39 <Guus> ack pchampin
17:11:45 <Guus> ack zwu
17:11:51 <pchampin> q-
17:13:57 <pchampin> guus: could eric come up with a proposal for ISSUE-73 and ISSUE-74
17:14:04 <pchampin> ISSUE-73?
17:14:04 <trackbot> ISSUE-73 -- IRI_REF vs. IRIref -- open
17:14:04 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/73
17:14:07 <pchampin> ISSUE-74?
17:14:07 <trackbot> ISSUE-74 -- Prefixed names and slashes -- open
17:14:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/74
17:14:12 <ericP> http://128.30.55.213/rdf/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes
17:14:20 <sandro> ericP, I'm pretty happy with the table.
17:15:04 <AndyS> I'm happy to change the SPARQL names.
17:15:13 <AndyS> (likely grammar update anyway)
17:16:00 <pchampin> eric: issue-73 should be solved consistently in Turtle and SPARQL
17:16:49 <pchampin> guus: volunteers for reviewing the draft?
17:16:53 <pchampin> andy: I volunteer
17:17:33 <pchampin> guus: will differ the choice of a 2nd volunteer until next week
17:17:38 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:17:39 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll
17:17:40 <Zakim> -FabGandon
17:17:40 <AZ_> bye
17:17:43 <Zakim> -davidwood
17:17:45 <Zakim> -AZ
17:17:46 <Zakim> -cgreer
17:17:48 <Zakim> -zwu2
17:17:49 <Zakim> - +1.603.897.aagg
17:17:50 <Zakim> -pfps
17:17:51 <Zakim> -AlexHall
17:17:53 <Zakim> -Arnaud
17:17:54 <pchampin> ADJOURNED
17:17:55 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
17:17:56 <Zakim> -yvesr
17:17:58 <Zakim> -MacTed
17:19:06 <gavinc> Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:19:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, sandro, Guus, pchampin, AndyS, LeeF, EricP
17:19:18 <Guus> :-)
17:20:30 <Zakim> -sandro
17:20:42 <Zakim> -Guus
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