Chatlog 2012-02-29

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15:44:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:44:21 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-rdf-wg-irc
15:44:23 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:44:23 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
15:44:25 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
15:44:25 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:44:26 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:44:26 <trackbot> Date: 29 February 2012
15:45:54 <ivan> zakim, this will be rdfwg
15:45:54 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, ivan
15:47:37 <davidwood> davidwood has joined #rdf-wg
15:49:07 <ivan> Zakim has a leap year bug… it does not recognize the 'this will be XXX' command. But if dialing in with the code, it will start (at least that is what our system guys told me…)
15:52:31 <AndyS> New UC --:  <rdf-wg> :teleconDate [ :happendOn "2012-02-29"^^xsd:date ] .
15:54:54 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
15:57:42 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
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15:59:50 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
16:00:20 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg
16:00:25 <sandro> Zakim, this is rdf
16:00:25 <Zakim> ok, sandro; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
16:00:27 <Zakim> +Guus
16:00:30 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
16:00:30 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-rdf-wg-irc#T16-00-30
16:00:34 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:00:34 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:00:36 <Zakim> +Ivan
16:00:47 <Zakim> +??P5
16:00:48 <Zakim> +bhyland
16:00:57 <davidwood> Zakim, bhyland is me
16:00:57 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
16:01:01 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:01:17 <Zakim> +Arnaud
16:01:24 <Zakim> +??P8
16:01:36 <AZ> zakim, ??p8 is me
16:01:36 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
16:01:38 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
16:01:46 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:01:46 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:01:47 <Zakim> +EricP
16:01:47 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:01:48 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:01:49 <AndyS> zakim, ??P5 is me
16:01:49 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
16:03:43 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
16:03:45 <Zakim> +Souri
16:03:50 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me
16:03:54 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
16:03:56 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
16:04:05 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
16:04:41 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
16:05:00 <Zakim> +AlexHall
16:05:06 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg
16:05:07 <Zakim> +FabGandon
16:05:39 <ivan> zakim, code?
16:05:39 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
16:05:56 <Zakim> +PatH
16:05:57 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 22 Feb telecon:
16:05:57 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-15
16:06:16 <ericP> scribenick: ericP
16:06:55 <PatH> thanks eric
16:07:04 <Zakim> +Ivan
16:07:04 <davidwood> RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 22 Feb telecon
16:07:07 <davidwood> Action item review:
16:07:07 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - item
16:07:07 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
16:07:07 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
16:08:03 <Zakim> +??P30
16:08:08 <ericP> antoine: ACTION-149 in progress
16:08:23 <ericP> ... will add references to related URLs
16:09:04 <ericP> sandro: i think you should focus on the 5 use cases on @@1
16:09:29 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs
16:09:31 <ericP> antoine: i tried to focus on easy use cases listed as priority A on the use case page @@2
16:09:34 <AndyS> ?? Sandro says they are his personal choice ??
16:09:42 <ericP> s/@@1/http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs
16:09:51 <ericP> s{@@1}{http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs}
16:10:08 <sandro> AndyS, I just didnt want to presume anything from the WG at that point.      
16:10:21 <davidwood> Close ACTION-148
16:10:21 <trackbot> ACTION-148 Write email about the "islands" idea closed
16:11:27 <davidwood> Close ACTION-141
16:11:27 <trackbot> ACTION-141 Propose a vocabulary and semantics for adding timestamps to RDF graphs closed
16:11:36 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
16:11:43 <zwu2> zakim, code?
16:11:43 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2
16:12:19 <LeeF> LeeF has joined #rdf-wg
16:12:30 <Zakim> +zwu2
16:12:32 <Zakim> +??P32
16:12:38 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:12:38 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
16:12:47 <ericP> pat: re: ACITON-140, agree that only XSD 1.1 semantics implications are more valid forms, and that we refer to xsd:identity, not xsd:equality
16:13:05 <ericP> ... do we want to incorporate facets?
16:13:10 <ericP> sandro: like from OWL?
16:13:14 <AlexHall> I thought Pat's action was to review the WG note: http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-xsch-datatypes/
16:13:20 <ericP> s/OWL/OWL2/
16:14:08 <yvesr> yvesr has joined #rdf-wg
16:14:19 <yvesr> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:14:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Sandro, Guus, AndyS, davidwood, Arnaud, AZ, MacTed (muted), EricP, cygri, Souri, AlexHall, FabGandon, PatH, Ivan, ??P30, zwu2 (muted), ??P32
16:14:27 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P32 is me
16:14:27 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
16:15:13 <Zakim> +David_Todd
16:15:32 <FabGandon> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-xml/index.html
16:15:34 <pchampin> Zakim, David_Todd is me
16:15:34 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
16:15:46 <davidwood> Topic: Turtle Escape Sequences
16:16:01 <ericP> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-strings
16:17:27 <AndyS> Does not allow \u in strings?
16:19:51 <cygri> +1 to 4.4, it looks good
16:21:00 <cygri> q+
16:22:02 <sandro> q+
16:22:12 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:22:48 <sandro> cygri: Why not name the different escape mechanisms, then use those names when saying which kind is allowed where.   eg "Local Name Escaping", etc.
16:23:21 <sandro> ... "Magic Special Character Escaping" is \t stuff.      etc.   Then say which you can do each place.
16:23:29 <sandro> +1 cygri 
16:23:57 <sandro> ericP: Sounds reasonable.
16:24:08 <sandro> ... I'll present two options.
16:24:10 <ericP> cygri: editorial proposal: name the escaping mechanisms and reference the names in e.g. IRI, local names, strings
16:24:16 <davidwood> ack sandro
16:25:26 <cygri> +1 sandro, to giving *some* explicit name to these escape mechanisms also makes talking about this stuff much easier
16:26:08 <ericP> PROPOSAL: remove section 4.3 in <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-strings> and remove issue tag on 4.4 
16:26:12 <sandro> sandro: if you can't come up with good names for the types, then just use type-1-escaping, type-2-escaping, etc.   And have a table of which works where.
16:26:19 <sandro> +1
16:26:21 <ivan> +1
16:26:23 <AndyS> +1
16:26:24 <davidwood> +1
16:26:24 <cygri> +1
16:26:26 <MacTed> +1
16:26:27 <ericP> +1
16:26:32 <PatH> +1
16:26:33 <zwu2> +1
16:26:34 <pchampin> +1
16:26:34 <pfps> +1
16:26:36 <Arnaud> +1
16:26:45 <yvesr> +1
16:26:49 <AlexHall> +1
16:26:51 <Souri> +1
16:27:37 <ericP> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes
16:28:11 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
16:28:34 <cygri> use both examples.
16:28:39 <pfps> +1 to previous proposal (dropped because my wireless dropped)
16:30:21 <pchampin> I too would keep both examples.
16:30:56 <Zakim> +LeeF
16:31:51 <sandro> sandro: Also, and say it's different from /Foo-bar
16:31:58 <sandro> davidwood: Good idea.
16:33:46 <sandro> ericP: Note is changed; I'll do the naming the different forms of escaping for tomorrow.
16:34:04 <davidwood> Topic: Black Hole
16:34:13 <davidwood> s/Black Hole/Named Graphs/
16:34:20 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:34:20 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:35:16 <ericP> PatH: do graph labels mean the same thing in different data sets?
16:35:27 <ericP> ... these questions affect other decisions
16:36:00 <ericP> davidwood: big ups to my bro PatH for forcing the WG to adopt philosophical rigor in our terminology, yo
16:37:46 <davidwood> Subtopic: Islands 🌴
16:37:57 <pfps> ?? to David's channelling of Andy
16:37:58 <ericP> davidwood: in AndyS's island terminology, two graphs may use a uri in the 4th slot to mean different things
16:38:41 <ericP> AndyS: the island idea was that there's a *social* step of assembling the data, and we're interested in that step
16:38:51 <ericP> PatH: does it have technical consequences?
16:38:55 <davidwood> Pat said, "What [2] says is that *the same* URI when used in one graph can mean something completely different when used in another graph, and that *this is perfectly correct* and even in fact *consistent*. What this means is that every URI in every graph is interpreted locally to that graph, which in effect makes every URI into a blank node (since this is how blank nodes are interpreted.) This is dissolving the entire Web in a kind of universal solvent."  (w
16:39:04 <ericP> ... must the machinery support it?
16:39:28 <ericP> PatH: the obvious consequence is that the machinery that we have shouldn't force false consequences
16:39:42 <PatH> that was andy
16:41:03 <PatH> btw, that mention of bnodes was wrong, I acknowledge.
16:41:05 <ericP> davidwood: in linked data, we say that using the same IRI in different places means the same thing.
16:41:44 <ericP> AndyS: i think trying to address this technical hampers progress because we assume there's a single technical solution
16:42:13 <ericP> ... saying that "there's good practice and bad practice" is a weaker way forward
16:42:40 <ericP> PatH: what "less ambitious" solution do you have in mind?
16:42:48 <sandro> q+
16:42:54 <ericP> ... there are datasets out there, people use them in various ways
16:43:09 <ericP> AndyS: we have claimed we will solve some use cases
16:43:16 <ericP> ... maybe that's too ambitious
16:43:35 <ericP> ... we don't want to solve those use cases, we want to give folks machinery to solve those use cases
16:43:42 <ericP> ... we just have to not mess them up
16:44:10 <PatH> q+
16:44:21 <davidwood> ack sandro
16:44:24 <ericP> davidwood: separating tech from social issues is helpful
16:44:31 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs
16:44:42 <Zakim> -pchampin
16:45:13 <ericP> sandro: in editing Why_Graphs this AM, these are all things that people want to standardize
16:45:42 <ericP> ... i don't think you can do any of these 5 things without defining semantics to trig
16:46:05 <ericP> ... how can i do <shared web crawler> and <archiving web crawler> in the same world?
16:46:17 <PatH> +1 sandro.
16:46:25 <ericP> ... all use trig as a simple and obvious solution but they use it with different semantics
16:46:42 <ericP> ... could scribble into trig some info about how it's being used
16:47:08 <ericP> ... i think 2 and 3 share a semantics, and 4 just says you need bnodes shared between graphs
16:47:23 <ericP> ... 3 semantics:
16:47:36 <ericP> ... .. relation between name and graph is log:semantics
16:47:48 <ericP> ... .. relation between name and graph is owl:sameAs
16:47:59 <ericP> ... .. no relation between name and graph
16:48:39 <sandro> <a> owl:sameAs { <s> <p> <o> }
16:48:42 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
16:48:45 <zwu2> sounds a bit odd :)
16:48:52 <ericP> ivan: so for owl:sameAs, an RDF graph becomes an OWL individual
16:49:34 <ericP> MacTed: when i say "Joe" and i say <http://joe.example/#> i mean the same joe
16:49:41 <AndyS> q+
16:49:46 <ericP> ... when you say "Joe" you mean Joe Jr.
16:50:05 <sandro> pfps, in OWL2 is an owl:Ontology a kind of individual?
16:50:34 <ericP> ... likewise when you say <http://joe.example/#> you mean Joe Jr.
16:51:00 <pfps> sandro, you just asked a question that does not really have an informal answer
16:51:05 <AndyS> q-
16:51:38 <sandro> pfps, do you agree with AZ?       (No in Direct Semantics, Yes in RDF-based semantics)   ?
16:51:40 <ericP> ericP: when i write a language, i expect the compiler to give me errors
16:52:01 <ericP> PatH: you can expect to discover inconsistency
16:52:17 <ericP> ... the role of semantics is to deliver to you the fact that there's an abberation
16:52:27 <Zakim> +??P2
16:52:34 <pchampin> zakim, ??P2 is me
16:52:34 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
16:52:44 <ericP> MacTed: i have the impression that folks are trying to prevent such abberations from occuring
16:52:58 <PatH> q-
16:53:01 <ericP> PatH: i don't think that [preventing abberations] can be done
16:53:56 <AZ> isn't TriG just a syntax?
16:53:59 <pfps> sandro, in OWL 2 Direct Semantics owl:Ontology does not appear
16:54:02 <ericP> ... if an IRI is used as a graph label in a trig doc, and used as a label for another graph in another doc, is it the same thing?
16:54:18 <ericP> q?
16:54:37 <ericP> AndyS: i've never seen it meant to label different things
16:54:51 <ericP> ... if it's contradictory, you've screwed up
16:54:58 <ericP> q+
16:55:24 <ericP> sandro: i think the labeling relation is different
16:55:29 <ericP> ... (generally)
16:55:51 <ericP> AndyS: if you allow that, you'd allow it to be a partial description
16:57:34 <zwu2> q+
16:58:40 <ericP> q-
16:58:53 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me
16:58:53 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted
16:58:53 <davidwood> ack ericP
16:58:55 <AZ> +1 ericP
16:59:01 <Souri> I agree with MacTed: aberrations can happen within a single graph or when you merge multiple graphs ... a validation procedure can point it out ... that's all we can do
16:59:01 <davidwood> ack zwu
16:59:03 <ericP> ericP: i think the common usage of SPARQL gives the answer here
16:59:33 <ericP> ... and that we should say that the triples associated with a label mean that labeled graph has at least those triples
16:59:45 <PatH> q+
16:59:49 <pchampin> q+
17:00:06 <ericP> zwu2: can we treat quads as syntactic sugar for reification
17:00:12 <ericP> ... ?
17:00:31 <ericP> sandro: if we figure out how we want to use quads, we can derive how that looks in triples
17:00:44 <sandro> q?
17:00:46 <davidwood> ack PatH
17:00:49 <ericP> PatH: +1 to sandro
17:01:08 <PatH> q-
17:01:18 <ericP> ... treating it as reification isn't consistent with this loose merging story, at least not without some work
17:01:20 <davidwood> ack pchampin
17:01:24 <sandro> sound problems
17:01:34 <PatH> hiccups?
17:01:44 <ericP> pchampin: we are talking about what we want to do with a trig file rather than what it means
17:01:49 <PatH> speak veeerrry slowly
17:01:55 <Arnaud> phone over ip or cell phone?
17:02:09 <sandro> pchampin, SORRY but we really can't understand you.
17:02:18 <pchampin> I think I'm gone sorry
17:02:24 <Zakim> -pchampin
17:02:44 <ericP> pchampin, can you write your point?
17:02:48 <davidwood> q?
17:03:02 <pchampin> pchampin: shouldn't we focus on what a trig file *means*, rather than what we will *do* with it?
17:03:29 <ericP> davidwood: we've come back to this point several times: specifically, what do we want to do with a quad
17:03:31 <pchampin> pchampin: the question might be harder to answer, but then the answer to the other questions would  follow
17:03:53 <ericP> ... is it fair to say that these five use cases are divergent enough to keep us from making a solution?
17:04:51 <AZ> q+
17:04:54 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs
17:05:02 <ericP> sandro: in the Why_Graphs, if you use trig in the intuitively obvious way, you end up with inconsistent uses
17:05:39 <ericP> ... but you can use it consistently in any of the 6 ways used on http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs
17:05:48 <ericP> q+
17:06:01 <davidwood> ack AZ
17:06:15 <ericP> AZ: trig is just a syntax
17:06:17 <Zakim> -AlexHall
17:06:20 <AndyS> The SPARQL dump/restore is priority A in the original list  (#1.5)
17:06:27 <ericP> ... using trig solves the problem at a syntactic level
17:06:49 <ericP> ... we can could agree on the syntax first, and then derive the semantics
17:06:52 <PatH> q+
17:07:03 <Zakim> +AlexHall
17:07:19 <Zakim> -AndyS
17:07:37 <davidwood> ack ericP
17:07:40 <AndyS> not dropped from my end :-(
17:07:43 <sandro> I think it's fine to use TriG as a default/example format for now.
17:08:15 <ericP> ericP: is there a clear winner on http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs ?
17:08:17 <Zakim> +??P14
17:08:22 <AndyS> zakim, ??P14 is me
17:08:24 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
17:08:24 <ericP> sandro: i pushed for #3
17:08:48 <ericP> ... AndyS and steve pushed back because of scale implementation costs
17:08:50 <davidwood> ack PatH
17:09:03 <ericP> ... i now like 6, but need to work out tech details
17:09:19 <sandro> NOT "scale".     Steve's concern was a CONSTANT time cost.
17:09:36 <sandro> (or linear)
17:09:42 <ericP> PatH: re: picking a syntax and deriving the semantics, these semantics are interchangable
17:09:59 <AZ> q+
17:10:13 <ericP> ... in trig, there are cases where the 4th column is a label for something like time
17:10:51 <davidwood> ack AZ
17:10:51 <ericP> ... thinking of these things as graphs doesn't fit with all of the intuitions we want to express
17:11:03 <ericP> AZ: +1 to PatH
17:11:37 <AndyS> That wasn't my concern.  1) feels too much like complete replumbing to the deployed data web. (2) explaining it to people unless we define graph literals in Turtle.
17:11:43 <ericP> ... with one syntax, we have a way of express stuff that we other way we can't express
17:12:03 <ericP> ... we could standardize trig and nquads
17:12:44 <sandro> sandro: TriG and N-Quads prejudice against solutions like Graph Objects (N3).
17:12:52 <ericP> sandro: those prejudice against solutions like Graph Objects (N3)
17:13:32 <PatH> Trig prejudices against 4th field as a time parameter.
17:13:34 <swh> swh has joined #rdf-wg
17:17:58 <sandro> Andy: as a group, I don't think we're sharing and building on each other's ideas
17:19:14 <Zakim> +pchampin
17:19:50 <Zakim> -LeeF
17:20:11 <Zakim> -Guus
17:20:43 <Zakim> +LeeF
17:21:00 <zwu2> honestly, if we cannot reach a decision, then we are not ready
17:21:23 <ericP> or it's too late
17:21:28 <ericP> or it's hard
17:21:39 <PatH> i feel like I am making progress, for one.
17:21:52 <AndyS> Several solutions are great, if it were a clean sheet of paper.
17:22:56 <Zakim> -LeeF
17:22:59 <zwu2> bye
17:22:59 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:23:03 <Zakim> -zwu2
17:23:03 <PatH> bye
17:23:04 <Zakim> -AlexHall
17:23:04 <Zakim> -AZ
17:23:05 <Zakim> -pfps
17:23:07 <Zakim> -Souri
17:23:10 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:23:16 <Zakim> -AndyS
17:23:23 <Zakim> -MacTed
17:23:24 <Zakim> -Arnaud
17:23:26 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes
17:23:29 <Zakim> -pchampin
17:23:30 <Zakim> -yvesr
17:23:30 <Zakim> -PatH
17:23:46 <Zakim> -cygri
17:23:50 <Zakim> -davidwood
17:23:54 <Zakim> -EricP
17:24:09 <ericP> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:24:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-rdf-wg-minutes.html ericP
17:24:17 <ericP> RRSAgent, make logs public
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