Chatlog 2012-01-25

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15:12:56 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:12:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/25-rdf-wg-irc
15:12:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:12:58 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
15:13:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
15:13:00 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 47 minutes
15:13:01 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:13:01 <trackbot> Date: 25 January 2012
15:16:40 <danbri> danbri has joined #rdf-wg
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15:57:51 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
15:57:58 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer
15:58:15 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer
15:58:16 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
15:58:16 <Zakim> Attendees were Scott_Bauer
15:58:32 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
15:58:39 <Zakim> +gavinc
15:59:04 <Zakim> +cgreer
15:59:26 <Zakim> +??P14
15:59:35 <AndyS1> zakim, ??P14 is me
15:59:35 <Zakim> +AndyS1; got it
15:59:40 <Zakim> +bhyland
16:00:19 <davidwood> Zakim, bhyland is me
16:00:19 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
16:00:32 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
16:00:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, cgreer, AndyS1, davidwood
16:00:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see cgreer, ivan_, FabGandon, AndyS1, mdmdm, AndyS, danbri, Zakim, RRSAgent, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, mischat, cygri, gavinc_, manu, davidwood, manu1, trackbot, yvesr, NickH,
16:00:36 <Zakim> ... sandro, ericP
16:00:42 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
16:01:21 <Zakim> +[Sophia]
16:01:21 <Zakim> +Eric
16:01:31 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:01:31 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:01:37 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:01:38 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:01:43 <FabGandon> zakim, [Sophia] is FabGandon
16:01:43 <Zakim> +FabGandon; got it
16:03:11 <ivan_> zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:03:16 <Zakim> ok, ivan_; the call is being made
16:03:20 <Zakim> +Ivan
16:03:52 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer
16:05:09 <FabGandon> Scribe: Fabien Gandon
16:05:18 <FabGandon> ScribeNick: FabGandon
16:05:41 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
16:05:43 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
16:05:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, cgreer, AndyS1, davidwood, MacTed (muted), FabGandon, Eric, Ivan, Scott_Bauer
16:05:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see zwu2, cgreer, ivan_, FabGandon, AndyS1, mdmdm, AndyS, danbri, Zakim, RRSAgent, MacTed, LeeF, mischat, cygri, gavinc_, manu, davidwood, manu1, trackbot, yvesr, NickH,
16:05:47 <zwu2> zakim, code?
16:05:47 <Zakim> ... sandro, ericP
16:05:49 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2
16:05:55 <danbri> hi folks, regrets from me ... laptop too overwhelmed to run Skype right now (giant mysql job)
16:06:12 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 18 Jan telecon:
16:06:12 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-01-18
16:06:33 <Zakim> +zwu2
16:06:36 <davidwood> Action item review:
16:06:36 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - item
16:06:36 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
16:06:36 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
16:06:37 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:06:37 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
16:06:53 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
16:07:31 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aaaa
16:07:40 <AlexHall> zakim, aaaa is me
16:07:40 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
16:07:52 <Zakim> +Souri
16:08:08 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
16:08:24 <Souri> Souri has joined #RDF-WG
16:09:11 <Zakim> +Guus
16:09:19 <swh> swh has joined #rdf-wg
16:10:25 <Zakim> +LeeF
16:11:55 <davidwood> Topic: Reviewers for XSD 1.1?
16:12:12 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/PR-xmlschema11-1-20120119/ W3C XML Schema Definition Language (XSD) 1.1 Part 1: Structures
16:12:12 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/PR-xmlschema11-2-20120119/ W3C XML Schema Definition Language (XSD) 1.1 Part 2: Datatypes
16:12:27 <FabGandon> they moved to proposed Rec and affect RDF
16:12:46 <FabGandon> davidwood ... we need reviewers
16:13:06 <FabGandon> Iven: the first part does not impact us
16:13:15 <FabGandon> s/Iven/Ivan
16:13:54 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xmlschema-2-20041028/
16:14:04 <ericP> [[
16:14:05 <ericP> This second edition is not a new version, it merely incorporates the changes dictated by the corrections to errors found in the first edition as agreed by the XML Schema Working Group, as a convenience to readers. A separate list of all such corrections is available at http://www.w3.org/2001/05/xmlschema-errata. 
16:14:11 <ericP> ]]
16:14:16 <FabGandon> davidwood: eg. of problems links between XMLLiteral and RDF Literals
16:14:22 <AndyS1> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/PR-xmlschema11-1-20120119/
16:15:09 <FabGandon> davidwood: we need to lood at XSD Strings
16:15:24 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/PR-xmlschema11-1-20120119/#changes changes from schema 1.0 to 1.1
16:15:24 <FabGandon> s/lood/look
16:15:29 <AndyS1> and XSD decimal canonical form (FYI)
16:16:28 <ivan_> The changes URI is http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/PR-xmlschema11-2-20120119/#changes
16:16:32 <FabGandon> ... we need someone to go through changes
16:16:43 <FabGandon> ericP: I can do it
16:17:23 <FabGandon> AlexHall: volonteer
16:17:43 <ivan_> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/PR-xmlschema11-2-20120119/#changes changes
16:17:59 <ivan_> q+
16:18:17 <FabGandon> proposed : "ACTION: ericP and AlexHall to review changes in W3C XML Schema Definition Language (XSD)"
16:18:17 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/PR-xmlschema11-2-20120119/#changes
16:19:18 <gavinc_> AndyS1, http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/PR-xmlschema11-2-20120119/#f-decimalCanmap ! 
16:19:25 <ericP> ACTION: ericP to review changes in W3C XML Schema Definition Language (XSD) -- http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/PR-xmlschema11-2-20120119/#changes
16:19:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-135 - Review changes in W3C XML Schema Definition Language (XSD) -- http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/PR-xmlschema11-2-20120119/#changes [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-02-01].
16:19:35 <ericP> ACTION: AlexHall to review changes in W3C XML Schema Definition Language (XSD) -- http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/PR-xmlschema11-2-20120119/#changes
16:19:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-136 - Review changes in W3C XML Schema Definition Language (XSD) -- http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/PR-xmlschema11-2-20120119/#changes [on Alex Hall - due 2012-02-01].
16:19:36 <FabGandon> Ivan: the changes in the datatypes may affect us too
16:19:59 <davidwood> I see "Conforming implementations may now support ·primitive· datatypes and facets in addition to those defined here."
16:20:49 <FabGandon> Ivan: there might be changes for instance in data comparison
16:21:10 <davidwood> " this allows float and double to treat positive and negative zero as distinct values, but nevertheless to treat them as equal for purposes of bounds checking" (!) :)
16:21:25 <davidwood> ^^ These things are important to end users, after all
16:21:41 <FabGandon> ericP: is there anyway for the structure to have an impact our data model ?
16:22:12 <FabGandon> Ivan: my opinion is that we are not affected by structure
16:23:06 <FabGandon> ... but the RDF semantics makes a selection of the datatype and this may have to be reviewed.
16:23:35 <davidwood> Topic: RDF-ISSUE-82 (TriG repeated graph iris)
16:24:28 <AndyS1> q+
16:24:35 <ivan_> q-
16:24:36 <FabGandon> gavinc_: consensus on the second option changing "merge" to "union", blank nodes with the same plabel are considered the same
16:25:34 <ScottB_> ScottB_ has joined #rdf-wg
16:25:58 <FabGandon> ... no semantics for blank nodes between graphs with different labels
16:26:32 <FabGandon> ... inference graphs are kept different and are an example where same labels may mean same nodes
16:27:25 <FabGandon> ... no equivalent in RDF/XML or Turtle right now.
16:27:41 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:27:41 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:28:09 <AndyS1> ack me
16:28:33 <AndyS1> +1
16:28:35 <ericP> +1
16:28:38 <cgreer> +1
16:28:41 <ivan_> 1
16:28:43 <zwu2> +1
16:28:44 <LeeF> +1
16:28:45 <Guus> +1
16:28:47 <AlexHall> +1
16:28:47 <gavinc_> +1
16:28:48 <Souri> +1
16:28:54 <gavinc_> "In a TriG document graph statements with the same graph IRI should be
16:28:56 <gavinc_> unioned to form a single RDF Graph. Blank nodes in each graph
16:28:57 <gavinc_> statement with the same label are considered to be the same blank
16:28:59 <gavinc_> node."
16:29:03 <FabGandon> davidwood: any objection to the wording (strawpoll) 
16:29:18 <MacTed> +1
16:29:31 <FabGandon> ... we have a consensus
16:30:08 <gavinc_> RESOLVE to close ISSUE-82 with the wording: "In a TriG document graph statements with the same graph IRI should be unioned to form a single RDF Graph. Blank nodes in each graph statement with the same label are considered to be the same blank node."
16:31:45 <davidwood> Topic: Named Graphs
16:31:48 <ericP> davidwood: +☮
16:32:27 <gavinc_> also on the wiki http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Example_of_Endorsement_Use_Case
16:32:38 <FabGandon> davidwood: starting with the endorsement use case
16:32:42 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:33:38 <FabGandon> ... does anyone push this use case ?
16:34:03 <FabGandon> MacTed: this use case could become very important
16:34:45 <LeeF> We don't ourselves do this sort of endorsement today, nor do our customers.
16:34:56 <gavinc_> It is a current use case for Lex Machina, Inc :D
16:35:18 <davidwood> OK, good
16:35:21 <FabGandon> ... there is a difference between me asserting and me endorsing
16:36:12 <Zakim> +??P39
16:36:27 <AZ> zakim, ??P39 is me
16:36:27 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
16:36:40 <Zakim> -AZ
16:38:23 <Zakim> +AZ
16:41:14 <gavinc_> The hash system in my example DOES NOT require trusting much at all
16:41:48 <gavinc_> +q
16:42:15 <FabGandon> AndyS:  controling the domain name of a graph name does ensure the trust i.e. there is a whole chain e.g. DNS
16:42:47 <ericP> i thought the point of this was to say "it's within..."
16:43:18 <FabGandon> ... the hash gives you stability / repeatability 
16:43:55 <FabGandon> gavinc_: endorsing without hashing may not be very useful
16:44:32 <FabGandon> ericP: within your store you can rely on your architecture 
16:45:27 <cgreer> q+
16:45:32 <gavinc_> -q
16:46:32 <FabGandon> AndyS: a lot of this can be done working with documents
16:46:51 <davidwood> ack cgreer
16:47:38 <FabGandon> cgreer: you don't want to endorse a graph that is merged with an other one.
16:48:31 <FabGandon> gavinc_: my example works because there is an intermediary doc
16:49:12 <FabGandon> ericP: can the provenance wg help here ?
16:49:46 <FabGandon> AndyS: no they are at the URI level
16:54:10 <FabGandon> davidwood: is the problem linked to the question of whether we name graphs with URI or not?
16:55:40 <FabGandon> ivan: the general mechanism is we have a URI and we have a predicate
16:55:59 <Guus> q+ to ask which mechanism
16:56:27 <Guus> +1 with Andy
16:57:14 <Guus> quints are out of scope, I would suggest
16:57:20 <davidwood> ack Guus
16:57:20 <Zakim> Guus, you wanted to ask which mechanism
16:58:26 <ericP> +1 to octs
16:58:55 <davidwood> -1 to octs :)
16:59:08 <FabGandon> gavinc_: we can adapt the syntax without making them quints
16:59:42 <AndyS1>    { eg:sandro eg:endorses <g1>.                   <g1> a rdf:StaticGraphContainer.                 }             <g1> { ... the triples I'm endorsing ... } 
17:00:16 <ivan_> +1 to David
17:00:32 <AndyS1> { eg:sandro eg:endorses <g1>.  <g1> a rdf:StaticGraphContainer. }  <g1> { ... the triples I'm endorsing ... } 
17:00:48 <LeeF> LeeF has left #rdf-wg
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17:01:42 <AndyS1> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Jan/0021.html
17:02:09 <AndyS1> (sandro's message -- includes multiple designs)
17:04:02 <Guus> q+
17:04:37 <cgreer> RDF doesn't disallow inconsistent graphs (+1 Guus)
17:04:47 <FabGandon> ivan: one problem was when in OWL the types of merged containers are disjoint 
17:04:56 <davidwood> ack Guus
17:05:15 <FabGandon> Guus: I'm interested in the easy syntax
17:06:29 <FabGandon> ... examples of syntax would help the discussion
17:07:37 <FabGandon> proposing : ACTION: Guus to write down an example of the syntaxes for the named graphs 
17:08:33 <FabGandon> Ivan: we could publish a version of Turtle tomorrow
17:09:09 <FabGandon> ... without changing it too much
17:09:47 <FabGandon> ACTION: Guus to write down an example of the syntaxes for the named graphs
17:09:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-137 - Write down an example of the syntaxes for the named graphs [on Guus Schreiber - due 2012-02-01].
17:10:34 <Guus> q+
17:10:59 <davidwood> ack Guus
17:10:59 <FabGandon> ivan: then we have to decide whether or not we modify the RDF semantics 
17:12:14 <FabGandon> Guus: nobody has yet come up with a clear proposal to update the semantics
17:14:57 <Zakim> -gavinc
17:15:19 <FabGandon> ivan: we need at least to write down in plain english the definitions of the core primitives
17:15:48 <MacTed> +1 Ivan's summary, "Named Graph" is inherently ambiguous, and must be defined multiply, for different contexts
17:17:43 <LeeF> I think we may be kidding ourselves if we think we're gong to get high-interoperability with defining this stuff multiple ways
17:18:22 <Zakim> -AZ
17:18:23 <Zakim> -cgreer
17:18:29 <Zakim> -AlexHall
17:18:33 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer
17:18:35 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
17:18:39 <Zakim> -zwu2
17:18:43 <davidwood> MacTed: Define named graphs both by typing URIs and also by using predicates.
17:18:44 <FabGandon> rrsagent, create minutes
17:18:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/25-rdf-wg-minutes.html FabGandon
17:19:24 <FabGandon> rrsagent, please make logs world-visible
17:19:42 <FabGandon> rrsagent, please publish the minutes
17:19:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/25-rdf-wg-minutes.html FabGandon
17:20:35 <Zakim> -LeeF
17:22:05 <FabGandon> what should I do with the URL http://www.w3.org/2012/01/25-rdf-wg-minutes.html  to get the wiki version to be cleaned ?
17:22:24 <AndyS1> I'm not here
17:23:44 <Zakim> -Guus
17:25:24 <AndyS1> FabGandon - instructions for minutes - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2009AprJun/0406.html
17:25:44 <AndyS1> (thx to LeeF)
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