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Chatlog 2012-01-11
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15:54:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg 15:54:04 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/11-rdf-wg-irc 15:54:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 15:54:06 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg 15:54:08 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394 15:54:08 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes 15:54:09 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference 15:54:09 <trackbot> Date: 11 January 2012 15:54:11 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdf-wg 15:55:34 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg 15:56:05 <yvesr> Zakim, who is on the phone? 15:56:05 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, yvesr 15:56:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see Guus, cygri, Zakim, RRSAgent, AZ, MacTed, LeeF, mischat, ivan, SteveH, AndyS1, manu, davidwood, mdmdm_, gavinc, trackbot, yvesr, manu1, NickH, sandro, ericP 15:57:11 <ericP> i'll be 10 mins late... 15:57:18 <SteveH> SteveH has left #rdf-wg 15:57:39 <swh> swh has joined #rdf-wg 15:59:44 <swh> Zakim, who's on the phone? 15:59:44 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, swh 15:59:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see swh, Guus, cygri, Zakim, RRSAgent, AZ, MacTed, LeeF, mischat, ivan, AndyS1, manu, davidwood, mdmdm_, gavinc, trackbot, yvesr, manu1, NickH, sandro, ericP 15:59:48 <cgreer> cgreer has joined #rdf-wg 15:59:59 <gavinc> Zakim, start meeting 16:00:00 <Zakim> I don't understand 'start meeting', gavinc 16:00:06 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg 16:00:12 <swh> Zakim, this will be RDF-WG 16:00:12 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, swh 16:00:14 <gavinc> Zakim this is rdfwf 16:00:44 <swh> Zakim, this will be RDFWG 16:00:44 <Zakim> ok, swh, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started 16:00:53 <swh> Zakim, who's on the phone? 16:00:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P0, gavinc, ??P2, +1.206.494.aaaa, mhausenblas, cgreer 16:00:55 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me 16:00:57 <Zakim> +cygri; got it 16:00:59 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P0 is me 16:01:03 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it 16:01:22 <Arnaud1> Arnaud1 has joined #rdf-wg 16:01:25 <Zakim> +??P10 16:01:32 <AndyS> zakim, ??P10 is me 16:01:34 <swh> Zakim, ??P2 is me 16:01:35 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it 16:01:41 <Zakim> +swh; got it 16:01:45 <Zakim> +??P11 16:01:49 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone? 16:01:50 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip 16:01:56 <mischat> zakim, ??P11 is me 16:01:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, gavinc, swh, +1.206.494.aaaa, cygri, cgreer, AndyS, ??P11 16:01:59 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made 16:02:01 <Zakim> +Ivan 16:02:01 <AZ> zakim, aaaa is me 16:02:09 <Zakim> +mischat; got it 16:02:13 <Zakim> +AZ; got it 16:02:16 <mischat> zakim, mute me 16:02:17 <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aabb 16:02:37 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted 16:02:46 <Arnaud> zakim, aabb is me 16:03:13 <Zakim> +Arnaud; got it 16:03:35 <Zakim> +sandro 16:04:26 <Zakim> +David_Wood 16:04:46 <davidwood> Zakim, David_Wood is me 16:04:47 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it 16:04:53 <Zakim> +LeeF 16:05:05 <mischat> davidwood: ww is not here today, i will scribe 16:05:27 <mischat> davidwood: i will send you an email on that front 16:05:42 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 4 Jan telecon: 16:05:42 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-01-04 16:05:53 <mischat> davidwood: any objections to accepting the minutes ? 16:06:00 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll has joined #rdf-wg 16:06:02 <mischat> RESOLVE accept minutes 16:06:05 <davidwood> Action item review: 16:06:05 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - item 16:06:05 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview 16:06:05 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open 16:06:40 <mischat> davidwood: moving on to open actions … 16:07:00 <Zakim> +JeremyCarroll 16:07:09 <mischat> davidwood: sandro any update on action 82(?) 16:07:16 <sandro> action-82? 16:07:16 <trackbot> ACTION-82 -- Sandro Hawke to draft well-known URI template and propose WG resolution that it is "stable" enough for IETF. -- due 2011-09-14 -- OPEN 16:07:16 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/82 16:07:25 <mischat> davidwood: any updates on action 98 ? 16:07:33 <mischat> action-98 ? 16:07:33 <trackbot> ACTION-98 -- Sandro Hawke to rdf: and rdfs: namespace should resolve to something that meets best practices -- due 2011-12-31 -- OPEN 16:07:33 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/98 16:08:01 <mischat> davidwood: shouldn't this be something for the w3c systems team 16:08:15 <mischat> davidwood: should someone else do this action? 16:08:55 <mischat> sandro: should we be following what the foaf ns does ? 16:08:59 <Zakim> +Souri 16:09:30 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg 16:09:43 <cygri> q+ 16:09:43 <mischat> davidwood: should we do it the way SKOS does it ? 16:10:03 <mischat> JeremyCarroll: is sandro being too picky here ? 16:10:24 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-vocab-pub/ 16:10:32 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software 16:10:33 <mischat> cygri: there is a document best practices for the vocabs 16:10:36 <yvesr> i think danbri is not overly keen on the way FOAF is published 16:10:39 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 16:10:39 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it 16:10:40 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 16:10:40 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 16:10:41 <mischat> cygri: we should follow the above document ^^ 16:10:45 <yvesr> mainly because they're stuck on 0.1 :) 16:11:10 <mischat> sandro: what is the user experience when users as for HTML 16:11:10 <mischat> ? 16:11:40 <mischat> JeremyCarroll: we need 10 lines of HTML, here is the RDF, this is the namespace 16:12:01 <mischat> sandro: doesn't want to do that project 16:12:03 <Zakim> +EricP 16:12:34 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#type 16:12:47 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/ns/formats/Turtle 16:12:48 <mischat> davidwood: right now if we resolve a url like above ^^, as it stands we get no HTML 16:13:10 <mischat> davidwood: we shouldn't get RDFXML when asking for a human readable document 16:13:52 <gavinc> eh, _n isn't that bad in javascript ;) 16:14:14 <mischat> davidwood: so where are we at now … 16:14:18 <sandro> zakim, who is making noise? 16:14:28 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: cgreer (9%), Arnaud (5%), sandro (34%), davidwood (30%) 16:14:58 <mischat> agenda: RDFa working group last call 16:15:12 <mischat> davidwood: manu asks us to review the RDFa documents 16:15:26 <mischat> davidwood: davidwood will ping Guus about this 16:15:45 <mischat> davidwood: charles have you reviewed the RDFa doc ? 16:15:53 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll 16:16:09 <mischat> charles : happy with the RDFa doc he reviewed 16:16:45 <ivan> q+ 16:16:47 <mischat> davidwood: we should be reviewing the document in terms of what the RDF WG are interested in document 16:17:01 <cygri> q- 16:17:03 <mischat> davidwood: was reviewing with an RDF WG hat on 16:17:11 <davidwood> ack ivan 16:17:33 <mischat> ivan: charles please submit under your own name 16:17:34 <gavinc> +q to ask about CURIEs 16:17:56 <mischat> ivan: you can tell from the RDFa, that they are staying clear of the named graph issue 16:17:58 <davidwood> ack gavinc 16:17:58 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to ask about CURIEs 16:18:04 <mischat> s/charles/cgreer/ 16:18:18 <mischat> gavinc: has gone through the RDFa curie's section 16:18:37 <mischat> gavinc: was wondering whether we should comment on the differences between CURIEs and prefixing ? 16:18:47 <mischat> ivan: which difference are you referring to ? 16:19:24 <cygri> q+ to ask whether they aren't the same now 16:19:25 <mischat> gavinc: the set of URIs which can be represented in CURIES is different from the set of IRIs that SPARQL's & RDF prefixes can represent 16:19:39 <mischat> gavinc: CURIEs don't work with XML 16:19:51 <mischat> gavinc: CURIE has a broader set than XML names 16:20:04 <mischat> gavinc: XML names are valid CURIES and prefix names … 16:20:14 <Zakim> +JeremyCarroll 16:20:28 <mischat> gavinc: we talked about this when talking about Turtle 16:20:41 <ericP> q? 16:20:57 <mischat> davidwood: it would be happy if this would be noted in the spec 16:21:07 <mischat> davidwood: because it is a syntax issue 16:21:11 <AndyS> CURIE is very open : prefix+local for anything, then says other syntaxes can restrict. 16:21:14 <davidwood> ack cygri 16:21:14 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to ask whether they aren't the same now 16:21:20 <mischat> cygri: can you give an example please ? 16:21:35 <mischat> gavinc: not right now 16:21:37 <cygri> ack me��� 16:21:56 <mischat> JeremyCarroll: 2 use-case to motivated CURIE, 1) ending in numbers 16:22:01 <mischat> as per the IPTC 16:22:24 <mischat> ivan: would like to see a very detailed example please :) 16:22:31 <cygri> thanks in advance gavinc! 16:22:36 <mischat> davidwood: before next week please 16:22:47 <mischat> ericP: you have 2 hours ;) 16:23:00 <mischat> moving on … 16:23:27 <mischat> davidwood: sandro or ivan, what is the best way to get these comments from this WG to the RDFa WG ? 16:23:38 <mischat> ivan: ideally we should send the comments to their mailing list 16:24:12 <mischat> ivan: because when they go to CR, it will be easier for the RDFa folks to handle. Please send comments to the RDFa mailing list 16:24:22 <mischat> davidwood: a link to the public-comments list ? 16:24:38 <mischat> ivan: please use the rdfa wg's list 16:24:44 <ivan> W3C RDFWA WG <public-rdfa-wg@w3.org> 16:25:21 <mischat> ivan: please use ^^ 16:25:23 <gavinc> hey look an example! CURIE: db:resource/Albert_Einstein vs. PNAME db:resource\/Albert_Einstein that's just escaping, will see about others 16:25:49 <mischat> topic: named graphs 16:26:19 <mischat> davidwood: sandro wanted Pat's on scoping, Pat sent an email about it 16:26:31 <mischat> davidwood: Pat would rather not have bnodes in the 4th column 16:26:45 <swh> +1 to not allowing bNodes in the 4th slot 16:26:45 <mischat> davidwood: can we make progress based on cygri being here and Pat's email. 16:27:08 <davidwood> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Jan/0033.html: "2c: if we allow bnodes in the 4th position, then please lets make a firm decision what their intended scope is going to be, and that they cannot also occur in other positions in the same graph store. But I vote to not allow bnodes in 4th position in any case." 16:27:20 <mischat> davidwood: Pat's comments re: bnode in 4th slot ^^ 16:27:25 <cygri> q+ to suggest straw poll, let's allow only IRIs in the 4th slot 16:27:37 <mischat> +1 to not having them either 16:27:54 <mischat> sandro: the scope for bnode is a document 16:28:40 <Zakim> -davidwood 16:28:42 <mischat> sandro: doesn't think that Pat's comment address his use-case from last week 16:28:47 <JeremyCarroll> q+ 16:29:13 <mischat> cygri: is confused, quote from Pat was about bnodes and not IRI 16:29:22 <mischat> i parsed that from the conversation too, fwiwi 16:29:26 <Zakim> +??P22 16:29:38 <mischat> cygri: are we considering using bnodes in the 4th slot ? 16:29:45 <Zakim> +davidwood 16:30:10 <mischat> cygri: as all the existing syntax, sparql, currently don't support bnodes in the 4th slot 16:30:28 <AZ> NQuads allows anything in 4th position 16:30:36 <davidwood> q? 16:30:43 <cygri> ack me 16:30:43 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to suggest straw poll, let's allow only IRIs in the 4th slot 16:30:46 <mischat> ericP: you can use a variable which matches in a bnode in SPARQL 16:31:05 <cygri> AZ, fair enough 16:31:17 <mischat> AndyS: you can use it in SPARQL query, but datasets don't allow for bnodes in the 4th slot 16:31:18 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll 16:31:35 <sandro> andy: SPARQL datasets dont allow bnodes in the URI part of the pair 16:31:40 <mischat> JeremyCarroll: re-capping conversation with Pat from 6 years back 16:31:50 <mischat> JeremyCarroll: wanted the bnodes in the 4th slot, as he is a big fan 16:31:53 <AndyS> (checking) sandro UC is convenience of not needing to mint a URI 16:32:05 <AndyS> s/URI/IRI/ <<--- arrg 16:32:11 <ericP> q? 16:32:22 <mischat> JeremyCarroll: couldn't see how to get the RDF graph isomorphism with bnodes in 4th slot 16:32:40 <mischat> JeremyCarroll: this causes problems when software testing 16:32:49 <ericP> q+ to ask if that's an artifact of the popular algorythm for isomorphisms 16:33:20 <swh> q+ to talk about use 16:33:30 <mischat> sandro: doesn't want bnodes in the 4th slot, but we haven't agreed on a design for our use-cases 16:34:08 <ericP> JeremyCarroll, if i exhaust a mapping of bnodes to bnodes, why would the additional permutations of having a graph named by a bnode be any harder than the other permutations? 16:34:09 <mischat> sandro: and dismissing bnodes there, is limiting our final design space, i.e. why limit ourselves now, before we have a design, based upon agreed use-cases 16:34:13 <gavinc> on the other hand, constricting the design space can help force a design? 16:34:29 <mischat> davidwood: can you walk through the use-case, which you think definitely requires a bnode there 16:35:35 <mischat> sandro: if you want to state that "dave asserts these triples", would require a IRI, but a bnode would allow us not to mint a new IRI 16:35:52 <AndyS> q+ to say IF we allow 4th slot bNodes, THEN limiting such bNodes to only 4th slot seems rather odd. 16:36:05 <mischat> JeremyCarroll: skolemisation is the work around for this 16:36:56 <sandro> JeremyCarroll: In general using blank nodes is a good way to indicate that we didnt have a good way to agree on a URI for the thing. 16:36:58 <mischat> JeremyCarroll: a blank-node would allow different people to articulate that they are talking about the same thing, without agreeing upon what the IRI should be minted before hand 16:36:58 <sandro> +1 16:37:03 <ivan> q+ 16:37:16 <davidwood> ack ericP 16:37:16 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask if that's an artifact of the popular algorythm for isomorphisms 16:37:39 <yvesr> JeremyCarroll, +1 - skolemisation would imply reconciliation a-posteriori, but i think i also understand why it could be a cause fo concerns 16:38:36 <sandro> JeremyCarroll: If one bnode is also used as a graph name, then isomorphism is more complicated 16:38:47 <swh> q- 16:39:02 <davidwood> ack AndyS 16:39:02 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to say IF we allow 4th slot bNodes, THEN limiting such bNodes to only 4th slot seems rather odd. 16:39:36 <mischat> AndyS: Pat's point about if used in 4th slot, is not clear 16:40:45 <mox601> mox601 has joined #rdf-wg 16:41:04 <AZ> q+ to say that what's allowed in the 4th slot probably depends on what it identifies 16:41:10 <JeremyCarroll> q+ 16:41:16 <mischat> AndyS: there is a balance to be struck, sometimes it is better to mint a URI, we should find if there is a use-case for not wanting to name a set of triples 16:41:25 <mischat> AndyS: perhaps using the "_". 16:42:16 <swh> q+ 16:42:23 <mischat> JeremyCarroll: AndyS was suggesting that bnodes used in the 4th column shouldn't be used in the g-snap named by that bnode 16:42:39 <davidwood> ack ivan 16:42:52 <mischat> sandro: we shouldn't limit our design space without clear objective/use-cases in mind 16:43:21 <sandro> sandro: we should build up designs, rather than chopping off options blindly 16:43:51 <sandro> +1 ivan: it's like the use of [...] in turtle 16:43:56 <swh> +1 to ivan 16:44:17 <AndyS> Relative IRIs do that? e.g. <#abc1> 16:44:19 <swh> maybe .well-known/genid 16:44:21 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll: we could restrict bnodes as graph names to ones that are only used in graphs named with an IRI 16:44:23 <mischat> ivan: do we need a way in the syntax to mint a new IRI for a use, which is scoped to a document. Bnodes are used in turtle, for when users don't care or want to mint a new IRI, something like [ … ] in bnode, which mints a new IRI and not a bnode 16:44:36 <mischat> personally that is why I use bnodes 16:44:37 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll: that wouild meet most of my objections, and maybe Pat's 16:45:02 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll: this for me, proves Sandro's point, that we shouldn't chop off the design space a priori 16:45:05 <mischat> AndyS: if you parse a file with that syntatic sugar, would you get the same IRI generated ? 16:45:22 <pchampin> q+ 16:45:27 <JeremyCarroll> q- 16:45:58 <pchampin> q- 16:46:01 <mischat> ivan: most people use bnodes when they don't want/care to mint a new IRI 16:46:16 <davidwood> ack AZ 16:46:16 <Zakim> AZ, you wanted to say that what's allowed in the 4th slot probably depends on what it identifies 16:46:54 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to suggest a straw poll on either making decision now or postponing til after the rest of the design is made 16:47:07 <gavinc> +q to propose a VERY concrete use case for Named Graphs 16:47:32 <mischat> AZ: maybe we will know how to restrict the 4th slot if we know that it identifies. If it is just a label for a graph, it doesn't matter if it is a literal, IRI or a bnode. 16:47:46 <cygri> q+ 16:47:48 <mischat> AZ: so the question to answer is, "what does the 4th slot identify" ? 16:47:56 <davidwood> ack swh 16:48:29 <mischat> swh: doesn't feel convinced that we haven't exhausted all of the use-cases 16:48:42 <mischat> swh: has been working with quad-stores for 10 years or so 16:49:06 <mischat> swh: initially we didn't rule out bnodes in the 4th slot, but it has turned out that people don't actual use them 16:49:47 <mischat> davidwood: feels that we are in a bit of a deadlock here. 16:49:49 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll 16:49:49 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to suggest a straw poll on either making decision now or postponing til after the rest of the design is made 16:49:53 <mischat> sandro: we need to revisit the design 16:50:13 <mischat> JeremyCarroll: 2nd'ing sandro's position re: revisiting the design 16:50:14 <gavinc> -q 16:50:19 <sandro> s/revisit/discuss 16:51:09 <ivan> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Jan/0021.html Sandro's three design aproaches 16:51:23 <davidwood> ack cygri 16:51:35 <swh> it's an existential variable! 16:51:43 <mischat> davidwood: doesn't think it seems minor given the ramifications for the semantics, for the various syntax, and the implementations 16:52:02 <mischat> s/davidwood/cygri/ 16:52:16 <swh> JeremyCarroll, cwm isn't the only system to have graph IDs that are bNodes, 3store did too, it just wasn't very popular 16:52:21 <swh> …with users 16:53:07 <mischat> cygri: re: AZ's point, we need to figure out what the interpretation of a dataset. Is it true/false? This will help cygri figure out the semantics of a dataset . 16:53:13 <sandro> yes, absolutely 16:53:18 <AZ> q+ 16:53:31 <cygri> ack me 16:53:40 <davidwood> ack AZ 16:53:42 <sandro> a dataset must have truth conditions, yes. being true or false. 16:54:12 <cygri> sandro, i disagree. is a dataset containing several versions of a graph true or false? 16:54:15 <mischat> AZ: the semantics of a dataset hasn't been decided upon yet, AZ proposed one, Pat didn't like it, but he don't have any progress on this front 16:54:36 <cygri> thanks AZ 16:54:48 <mischat> AZ: we don't even have the beginnings of what a dataset is yet, this work needs to be performed 16:55:48 <AZ> s/he don't have any progress/we don't have any progress/ 16:56:35 <mischat> sandro: is talking about the use case re: graphs ^^ 16:56:38 <gavinc> +q for concrete use case 16:57:22 <mischat> Use case 1 : Several systems want to use the data gathered by one RDF crawler. They don't need simultaneous access to older versions of the data. 16:57:31 <mischat> Use case 2: Several systems want to use the data gathered by one RDF crawler. They need simultaneous access to older versions of the data. 16:57:58 <mischat> davidwood: can you find a real-world example for use-case 2 16:58:01 <swh> we do provenance of that kind, and we don't model it that way 16:58:09 <AndyS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Oct/0148.html 16:58:21 <gavinc> Archiving Crawler Concrete! 16:58:23 <mischat> sandro: people would like to know how and why data has changed 16:58:44 <mischat> sandro: would allow for provenance data to be modelled in RDF 16:58:54 <mischat> Use-case 3 : A system wants to convey to another system in RDF that some person agrees with or disagrees with certain RDF triples. 16:59:20 <mischat> sandro: these 3 use-case could easily be modelled in trig and in nquads 16:59:51 <mischat> sandro: the syntaxes get used in different ways, and all of the ways can be used to model the use-cases 17:00:32 <mischat> sandro: enumerated these are called the ways : Trig/REST, Trig/Equality, and Trig/bnode 17:00:33 <sandro> third approach: eg:sandro eg:endorses { ... the triples I'm endorsing ... } 17:00:59 <gavinc> +q 17:02:13 <sandro> and third design on UC1 is: <http://example.org> rdf:graphState { ... triples recently fetched from there } 17:03:05 <mischat> davidwood: most discussion was around the 3rd solution, and we haven't had much discussion on this, probably due to the timing of the email 17:03:06 <davidwood> ack gavinc 17:03:07 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to discuss concrete use case and to 17:03:56 <mischat> gavinc: we are talking about archiving data on the web, as one of our use-cases, and we have an ISO standard for it at the moment 17:04:38 <JeremyCarroll> please post link 17:04:40 <gavinc> http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/formats/fdd/fdd000236.shtml 17:04:44 <cygri> i've worked with it 17:04:55 <mischat> gavinc: in our use-case, without RDF, and without the SW cached in, when people have designed archiving systems for the web, they minted URIs 17:04:56 <cygri> most off-the-shelf crawlers support it 17:05:12 <mischat> gavinc: a standard for archiving data from the web ^^ 17:05:29 <mischat> gavinc: so why are we talking about archiving the web, without minting new IRIs 17:06:06 <JeremyCarroll> http://bibnum.bnf.fr/WARC/ ISO 28500. 17:06:17 <mischat> sandro: please put your comments in context 17:06:37 <mischat> gavinc: use-case 2 is not necessary for needing 17:06:56 <mischat> s/needing/motivating bnodes in the 4th column/ 17:07:38 <cygri> davidwood++ 17:07:45 <mischat> davidwood: please motivation use-case 3 17:07:51 <mischat> s/motivation/motivate/ 17:08:00 <cygri> q+ 17:08:13 <LeeF> Don't people build their own technology for something like this if they want to do it? How does the Tim Clark type group of people do it? 17:08:42 <davidwood> ack cygri 17:08:42 <mischat> sandro: doesn't think that anyone is publishing data for use-case 3 because there are no mechanisms for people to make use of the practices described in use-case 3 17:09:03 <davidwood> LeeF, Tim Clark type group? 17:09:22 <gavinc> Specific every WARC record must have an IRI http://archive-access.sourceforge.net/warc/warc_file_format-0.16.html#anchor4 17:09:28 <LeeF> project formerly known as SWAN - think it became the scientific discourse sub-group of the SW HCLS IG 17:09:33 <LeeF> but i don't know a lot about what it's been up to 17:09:38 <LeeF> ericP? 17:09:54 <davidwood> WARC specifies a URI, not an IRI 17:10:20 <mischat> cygri: doesn't believe that the use-case 3 should be top of our agenda 17:11:23 <LeeF> I'm not that interested in this use case :-) 17:11:53 <swh> yes, lets ask the question about who's interested 17:12:12 <gavinc> since you can create a new graph that contains only the subgraph, and endorse that 17:12:22 <mischat> JeremyCarroll: thinks that we can endorse a graph, but not a subgraph, and doesn't think this is a major issue 17:12:31 <AndyS> Also - converse is whether it is a requirement to be solved - middle ground of "not blocked" 17:12:44 <mischat> davidwood: can we have a straw-poll about who is interested in use-case 3 ? 17:12:49 <LeeF> Talking about graph versus talking about subgraph? 17:12:52 <MacTed> sorry... link to this? 17:12:52 <JeremyCarroll> i am interested in uc3 ... 17:12:55 <AndyS> +0.25 17:13:15 <davidwood> +0 17:13:33 <JeremyCarroll> q+ tp talk about owl test cases 17:13:35 <mischat> swh: finds it hard to know what use-case 3 is talking about 17:13:43 <JeremyCarroll> q+ to talk about owl test cases 17:13:48 <davidwood> MacTed, UC3 in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Jan/0021.html 17:13:53 <MacTed> danke 17:14:47 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll 17:14:48 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to talk about owl test cases 17:15:31 <swh> SELECT ?s ?p ?o WHERE { eg:sandro eg:endorses ?g } GRAPH ?g { ?s ?p ?o }} 17:15:40 <LeeF> syntax error! 17:15:41 <mischat> JeremyCarroll: in the owl test case, there are manifest files which stated that one graph entails another graph. JeremyCarroll thinks this is a different concrete use case regarding what sandro is talking about 17:15:45 <swh> all the triples endorsed by eg:sandro 17:15:54 <swh> sorry LeeF :) 17:15:57 <mischat> sandro: thinks that use-case 4 is touching upon what JeremyCarroll mentioned above ^^ 17:16:12 <ericP> +1 to PML use case 17:16:13 <LeeF> at least you didn't write "SELECT ?s, ?p, ?o" :-D 17:16:14 <MacTed> +1 interested in expressing endorsement (agreement with, has confidence in, etc.) of <arbitrary g-snap> 17:16:31 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll 17:16:40 <AZ> thx 17:16:41 <Zakim> -cygri 17:16:41 <AZ> buy 17:16:42 <Zakim> -Souri 17:16:43 <swh> LeeF, yeah, after years I finally stopped putting the , in there :) 17:16:43 <Zakim> -Arnaud 17:16:43 <Zakim> -yvesr 17:16:44 <Zakim> -gavinc 17:16:45 <Zakim> -sandro 17:16:47 <Zakim> -davidwood 17:16:48 <Zakim> -AZ 17:16:48 <Zakim> -swh 17:16:50 <Zakim> -MacTed 17:16:52 <Zakim> -pchampin 17:16:53 <Zakim> -mischat 17:16:57 <cgreer> cgreer has left #rdf-wg 17:16:58 <Zakim> -EricP 17:17:00 <Zakim> -AndyS 17:17:02 <Zakim> -Ivan 17:17:21 <Zakim> -cgreer 17:17:25 <Arnaud> Arnaud has left #rdf-wg 17:17:36 <AndyS> Did we make progress today? 17:17:42 <Zakim> -LeeF 17:17:42 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended 17:17:43 <Zakim> Attendees were gavinc, +1.206.494.aaaa, cgreer, cygri, yvesr, AndyS, swh, Ivan, mischat, AZ, +1.408.996.aabb, Arnaud, sandro, davidwood, LeeF, JeremyCarroll, Souri, MacTed, EricP, 17:17:45 <Zakim> ... pchampin 17:17:52 <LeeF> There's a disconnect somewhere here 17:17:59 <mischat> do I have to do things now 17:18:08 <mischat> make scribe logs or something 17:18:13 <LeeF> Because I think that people are disagreeing over what needs to happen (if anything) in a design to support UC3 17:18:17 <mischat> been on holiday for a while :) 17:18:26 <cygri> trackbot, make logs public 17:18:26 <trackbot> Sorry, cygri, I don't understand 'trackbot, make logs public'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help 17:18:33 <LeeF> RRSAgent, make logs public 17:18:39 <cygri> ah. 17:18:44 <LeeF> mischat, think you want this http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/panel/ # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000390