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Chatlog 2011-09-28
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14:58:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg 14:58:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/28-rdf-wg-irc 14:58:39 <pfps> scribenick pfps 14:59:18 <gavinc> trackbot, start meeting 14:59:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 14:59:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394 14:59:22 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute 14:59:23 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference 14:59:23 <trackbot> Date: 28 September 2011 14:59:58 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg 15:00:09 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #rdf-wg 15:00:38 <pfps> scribenick: pfps 15:00:43 <Guus> zakim, who is here? 15:00:43 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus 15:00:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see Arnaud, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, AZ, pfps, Scott_Bauer, Guus, danbri, mischat, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, SteveH, NickH, manu, manu1, davidwood, trackbot, stain, yvesr_, 15:00:47 <Zakim> ... sandro, ericP 15:01:11 <PatH> PatH has joined #rdf-wg 15:01:30 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here? 15:01:30 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, MacTed 15:01:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see PatH, Arnaud, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, AZ, pfps, Scott_Bauer, Guus, danbri, mischat, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, SteveH, NickH, manu, manu1, davidwood, trackbot, stain, 15:01:33 <Zakim> ... yvesr_, sandro, ericP 15:01:36 <MacTed> Zakim, this is 73394 15:01:36 <Zakim> ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM 15:01:38 <Zakim> +bhyland 15:01:39 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here? 15:01:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see +31.20.598.aaaa, Tony, +33.4.77.42.aabb, +1.443.212.aacc, OpenLink_Software, Arnaud, +1.707.861.aadd, bhyland 15:01:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see PatH, Arnaud, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, AZ, pfps, Scott_Bauer, Guus, danbri, mischat, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, SteveH, NickH, manu, manu1, davidwood, trackbot, stain, 15:01:47 <Zakim> ... yvesr_, sandro, ericP 15:01:48 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 15:01:49 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider 15:01:50 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 15:01:51 <gavinc> zakim, aadd is me 15:01:53 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it 15:01:55 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 15:01:57 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it 15:01:58 <AlexHall> zakim, aacc is me 15:01:59 <davidwood> zakim, bhyland is me 15:02:01 <Zakim> + +44.207.923.aaee 15:02:03 <Scott_Bauer> zakim, Tony is me 15:02:05 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it 15:02:06 <pfps> scribenick: pfps 15:02:07 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it 15:02:09 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer; got it 15:02:14 <Guus> zakim, +31.20.598.aaaa is me 15:02:17 <Zakim> +Guus; got it 15:02:18 <Arnaud> fyi, I will have to drop at the hour 15:02:21 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg 15:02:28 <pfps> topic: Admin 15:02:41 <Zakim> +PatH 15:03:09 <cmatheus> cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg 15:03:15 <yvesr_> Zakim, who's on the call? 15:03:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, Scott_Bauer, +33.4.77.42.aabb, AlexHall, MacTed (muted), Arnaud, gavinc, davidwood, Peter_Patel-Schneider, +44.207.923.aaee, PatH 15:03:15 <AZ> zakim, aabb is me 15:03:18 <PatH> I will have to drop out in 30 mins for a short while. 15:03:18 <Zakim> +AZ; got it 15:03:27 <yvesr_> Zakim, +44.207.923.aaee is me 15:03:27 <Zakim> +yvesr_; got it 15:03:32 <yvesr_> Zakim, mute me 15:03:32 <Zakim> yvesr_ should now be muted 15:03:37 <Guus> zakim, who is here? 15:03:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, Scott_Bauer, AZ, AlexHall, MacTed (muted), Arnaud, gavinc, davidwood, Peter_Patel-Schneider, yvesr_ (muted), PatH 15:03:37 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg 15:03:39 <Zakim> On IRC I see cmatheus, pchampin, PatH, Arnaud, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, AZ, pfps, Scott_Bauer, Guus, danbri, mischat, gavinc, MacTed, LeeF, SteveH, NickH, manu, manu1, davidwood, 15:03:41 <Zakim> ... trackbot, stain, yvesr_, sandro, ericP 15:03:45 <Zakim> + +1.781.899.aaff 15:03:45 <zwu2> zakim, code? 15:03:47 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2 15:03:55 <sandro> zakim, aaff is Sandro 15:03:55 <Zakim> +Sandro; got it 15:04:04 <Zakim> +??P34 15:04:12 <pchampin> zakim, ??P34 is me 15:04:12 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it 15:04:14 <pchampin> zakim, mute me 15:04:14 <Zakim> pchampin should now be muted 15:04:28 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aagg 15:04:33 <PatH> zakim, mute me 15:04:33 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted 15:04:39 <zwu2> zakim, aagg is me 15:04:39 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it 15:04:49 <zwu2> zakim, mute me 15:04:50 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted 15:04:52 <pfps> PROPOSED: accept minutes of 21 Sep http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-09-21 15:05:03 <PatH> +1 15:05:21 <pfps> RESOLVED: accept minutes of 21 Sep http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-09-21 15:05:33 <pfps> guus: action items - pending 15:05:54 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg 15:06:16 <Zakim> +EricP 15:06:37 <yvesr_> done :) 15:06:49 <pfps> guus: 77 done, 89 [done], 90 done, 91 done 15:06:51 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg 15:07:02 <pfps> guus: open actions 15:07:08 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aahh 15:07:18 <Souri> zakim, aahh is me 15:07:19 <Zakim> +Souri; got it 15:07:27 <pfps> guus: action 82 - Sandro? 15:07:42 <pfps> sandro: no action yet - will try this week 15:07:53 <pfps> guus: action 86 - Sandro? 15:08:08 <sandro> action-86? 15:08:08 <trackbot> ACTION-86 -- Sandro Hawke to provide example for how code is simpler with language-tag options 3 and 4 vs 1 and 2. -- due 2011-09-14 -- OPEN 15:08:08 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/86 15:08:35 <pfps> sandro: 86 is either done or obsolete 15:08:41 <pfps> guus: everything is to continue 15:08:43 <sandro> it's both! 15:09:07 <pfps> TOPIC: F2F planning 15:09:12 <pfps> guus: anything to be done 15:09:14 <sandro> is it disjunction and/or conjunction? :-) 15:09:22 <yvesr_> Zakim, unmute me 15:09:23 <Zakim> yvesr_ should no longer be muted 15:09:51 <pfps> davidwood: note that times have changed (and are now aligned) 15:09:53 <yvesr_> Zakim, mute me 15:09:53 <Zakim> yvesr_ should now be muted 15:09:59 <ericP> sandro, do you know the foo to make sure the Stata doors are unlocked? 15:10:09 <ericP> if not, i'll dig into it 15:10:22 <sandro> please do, eric. 15:10:36 <pfps> guus: agenda for F2F2 is on the wiki, need to make sure that some open time remains 15:10:53 <pfps> guus: no need to change more right now 15:10:54 <cmatheus> cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg 15:11:15 <pfps> TOPIC: Turtle in HTML 15:11:36 <pfps> guus: see message from Gavin 15:11:57 <pfps> gavinc: document needs to be brought up before HTML task force 15:12:13 <pfps> s/HTML/HTML data/ 15:13:04 <pfps> ACTION gavinc: liase with HTML data task force to bring up Turtle in HTML document, etc. 15:13:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-92 - Liase with HTML data task force to bring up Turtle in HTML document, etc. [on Gavin Carothers - due 2011-10-05]. 15:13:52 <pfps> TOPIC: Liaison with Provenance WG 15:14:11 <pfps> guus: trust use case from Sandro http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-prov/2011Sep/0003.html 15:14:33 <davidwood> q+ to ask what impact Turtle in HTML might have on RDF/JSON 15:14:34 <pfps> guus: this appears to be a good, driving example 15:15:00 <pfps> sandro: I can't speak for the PWG, even though I tried to provoke discussion of it there 15:15:30 <pfps> sandro: Richard had some comments, notably a set of actions 15:16:03 <pfps> guus: how about RDF to show example(s)? 15:16:23 <PatH> this example seems very ambitious to me. ZDoes the Prov. grp consider it in their scope? 15:16:36 <Zakim> +??P3 15:16:44 <pfps> sandro: one issue is when you need a "snapshot", e.g., "That's not right", but then the "that" is fixed 15:16:48 <AndyS> zakim, ??P3 is me 15:16:48 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it 15:17:10 <pfps> sandro: Richard's proposal does not appear to speak to this 15:17:10 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdf-wg 15:18:18 <pfps> guus: can we come up with some worked examples, showing potential RDF content? 15:18:34 <pfps> sandro: I'll try to work this into the conversation with Richard 15:18:57 <sandro> will post to public-rdf-prov@w3.org 15:19:08 <pfps> sandro: on the joint mailing list public-rdf-prov@w3.org 15:19:52 <pfps> guus: can something be done on this at the F2F? 15:20:06 <davidwood> q- 15:20:07 <pfps> guus: we need to prepare something on this for F2F 15:20:30 <pfps> sandro: can others do other examples? 15:20:52 <pfps> guus: how about responding to the first example with potential solutions? 15:21:44 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC 15:22:14 <pfps> the above link is the relevant page for this WG to edit on provenance 15:22:23 <pfps> guus: volunteers to do something? 15:22:58 <pfps> gavinc: there is an example - i'll work on it 15:23:36 <yvesr_> just got a nice use-case from Denni V - I asked him to write it up 15:23:47 <yvesr_> about data wikis 15:23:59 <PatH> whatever you decide, it only works if everyone does it. 15:24:19 <gavinc> Exactly. 15:24:40 <sandro> sandro: maybe simplest solution is all script/turtle elements are the default graph, unless they have id tags. This gives you a dataset serialization format (although only when the graph ids have the same base) 15:24:51 <pfps> guus: please come up with interesting suggestions for proposals 15:25:04 <Zakim> -Arnaud 15:25:22 <sandro> Jan 15:25:41 <Guus> Jan Wielemaker 15:25:43 <Zakim> +Arnaud 15:25:50 <AndyS> (implicit) base URIs considered harmful. 15:25:52 <Guus> will ask him to look at examples 15:25:54 <pfps> guus: i'll ask Jan Wielemaker to contribute 15:26:08 <davidwood> AndyS++ 15:26:45 <PatH> "My favorite quadstore", a contemporary love story. 15:26:54 <gavinc> www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Graphs-In-Turtle 15:27:02 <pfps> guus: provenance will be a main topic at the F2F 15:27:55 <pfps> gavinc: work on serialization of all this 15:28:32 <pfps> gavinc: looking at what it would take to standarize something like TRIG or n-QUADS and how it could be compatible with Turtle 15:29:11 <pfps> gavinc: proposal from me (GRAPH keyword); another like TRIG (see strawman page) 15:30:25 <pfps> gavinc: problem with TRIG is that it isn't n-quads (because TRIG has to have all the graph in one spot) 15:30:36 <Zakim> -PatH 15:30:40 <pfps> Strawman proposal Richard: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html#section-multigraph 15:30:48 <ericP> q+ to say the semantics might be easier if each graph simply added to the "database" so repeats simply append 15:31:14 <pfps> Sandro: I don't like stateful syntaxes 15:31:52 <sandro> ericp 15:32:28 <pfps> ericP: Turtle already has state - in [], prefixes, etc., so we wouldn't be too much worse 15:32:35 <ericP> <G1> { <G2> { <s> <p> <o> } } 15:32:40 <Guus> q? 15:32:47 <Guus> ack eripP 15:32:53 <ericP> <G1> { 15:32:58 <Guus> ack aricP 15:33:02 <AndyS> Turtle is only concat as whole files. (bNode labels excepted) is that enough? 15:33:03 <ericP> <G2> { <s> <p> <o> } 15:33:05 <ericP> } 15:33:15 <Zakim> +LeeF 15:33:28 <sandro> sandro: so good practice might be to start every turtle doc with "@graph . #go back to the default graph" if you think there might be concats. 15:33:29 <pfps> ericP: some of this can be addressed by fiddling with embedding 15:33:46 <Guus> ack ericP 15:33:46 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say the semantics might be easier if each graph simply added to the "database" so repeats simply append 15:34:06 <pfps> ericP: concatenation has some negative consequences 15:35:01 <pfps> ericP: line-orientation also runs counter to concatenability 15:35:20 <LeeF> We repeat the same graph ID a fair amount 15:35:30 <LeeF> (in our TriG documents) 15:35:33 <LeeF> And it's additive 15:35:38 <pfps> AndyS: the (?) implementation of TRIG actually allows graph id repetition 15:36:13 <pfps> gavinc: but the semantics may not be best 15:36:34 <sandro> = vs += 15:36:36 <pfps> sandro: N3 has an implicit "=", so concatentation isn't the intended meaning 15:36:48 <pfps> ericP: which version of N3 15:37:01 <ericP> s/ericP/AndyS/ 15:37:16 <pfps> sandro: both 15:38:15 <sandro> sandro: for this week, I'm inclined to go with @graph, since it's more clear to me what it means. 15:38:21 <ericP> with the curly braces approach, we have a short way to write the grammar: 15:38:22 <ericP> [1] trigDoc ::= ( directive | trigGraph )* 15:38:22 <ericP> [2] trigGraph ::= IRIref "="? "{" turtleDoc" "}" "."? 15:38:37 <ericP> and lean on the turtle spec 15:38:52 <pfps> sandro: @graph form - semantics?? 15:39:20 <gavinc> @graph . #go back to the default graph 15:39:22 <pfps> gavinc: not complete 15:39:32 <sandro> sandro: when you hit the end of the turtle file, do you know exactly which triples are in each named graph? 15:40:10 <pfps> guus: any relationship to documents 15:41:09 <pfps> ?? 15:41:26 <ericP> q+ to say that i fiddled with making trig lean on Turtle: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/Trig 15:41:43 <pfps> sandro: dataset = gbox, gsnap is different 15:42:08 <pfps> gavinc: need something that shows complete graph contents 15:42:44 <pfps> sandro: yes 15:42:51 <sandro> sandro: maybe = syntax will be clearer these are gsnaps 15:43:09 <sandro> (uh oh - phone problems - may drop off without warning.) 15:43:22 <pfps> ericP: i fiddled with making trig lean on Turtle: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/Trig 15:43:35 <AndyS> Why not make Trig simply +Turtle (unnamed {} optional) +NQuads (outside {}) 15:44:34 <pfps> sandro: how about splitting the difference? 15:44:43 <pfps> AndyS: the strawman is more line oriented 15:45:02 <ericP> q- 15:45:08 <pfps> AndyS: this helps with relationship to n-quads 15:45:22 <Zakim> +Sandro 15:46:37 <sandro> [....] is nesting, yeah. 15:46:43 <pfps> gavinc: trig introduces nesting to turtle, which doesn't have much 15:47:18 <yvesr_> although only one degree of nesting (in trig) 15:47:28 <Zakim> -Sandro 15:47:59 <pfps> TOPIC: Status RDF Dataset proposal 15:48:09 <pfps> Strawman proposal Richard: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html#section-multigraph 15:48:33 <pfps> guus: as Richard is not here, let's move on 15:48:44 <pfps> guus: ISSUE-12 language-tagged literals 15:48:58 <pfps> guus: Results of poll so far: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/46168/tagged_literals/results 15:49:42 <pfps> guus: the proposals with only a few "no" votes are 1 and 2d 15:49:56 <pfps> guus: the other proposals are very likely to be problematic 15:50:41 <pfps> guus: option 2d has fewer prefer not votes, so it appears to be a more-liked solution 15:51:12 <AZ> +1 to go on with 2d 15:51:17 <pfps> guus: shall we spend *more* time discussing this, or should we just try for 2d 15:51:20 <gavinc> +1 to go with 2d 15:51:24 <LeeF> I'm happy with 2d 15:51:37 <pchampin> +1 to go on with 2d 15:51:40 <yvesr_> guus++ 15:52:08 <ericP> Arnaud, did you say that the current RDF spec says that language tags are normalized to lower case? 15:52:47 <pfps> davidwood: should we spend some time looking at cleaning up various uses of string literals 15:53:05 <gavinc> ericP, yes 15:53:29 <pfps> guus: spending scarce F2F time may not be the best way 15:54:07 <pfps> guus: can we put forward a proposal (next week?) in preparation for a final decision at the F2F? 15:54:13 <ericP> gavinc, wasnt' that why we gave up on the datatype approach? 15:54:18 <pfps> davidwood: OK 15:54:27 <ericP> oh well, i'm not going to push anything 15:54:51 <pfps> guus: i'll propose a resolution for next week (but maybe the initial proposer would be better) 15:55:20 <AndyS> ericP - yes - sec 6.5 of "concepts" 15:55:40 <pfps> sandro: we need to try to make a final resolution - no backsliding! 15:56:41 <pfps> ACTION guus: propose a resolution for next week on language-tagged-literals 15:56:05 <pfps> TOPIC: AOB 15:56:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-93 - Propose a resolution for next week on language-tagged-literals [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-10-05]. 15:57:01 <pfps> guus: adjourned 15:57:07 <Zakim> -AndyS 15:57:08 <yvesr_> bye! 15:57:08 <Zakim> -MacTed 15:57:10 <Zakim> -EricP 15:57:10 <AZ> bye 15:57:11 <Zakim> -LeeF 15:57:11 <Zakim> -Souri 15:57:11 <Zakim> -yvesr_ 15:57:13 <Zakim> -davidwood 15:57:13 <Zakim> -Guus 15:57:14 <Zakim> -Arnaud 15:57:14 <zwu2> bye 15:57:16 <Zakim> -gavinc 15:57:17 <Zakim> -AlexHall 15:57:20 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider 15:57:24 <Zakim> -zwu2 15:57:28 <Zakim> -AZ 15:57:34 <Zakim> -Sandro 15:57:36 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer 15:58:31 <pfps> rrsagent, please set logs world-visible 15:58:40 <pfps> rrsagent, please draft minutes 15:58:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/28-rdf-wg-minutes.html pfps 15:58:51 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg 15:59:16 <pfps> rrsagent, please set minutes world-visible 15:59:16 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'please set minutes world-visible', pfps. Try /msg RRSAgent help 16:00:13 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdf-wg 16:08:17 <Zakim> -pchampin 16:08:19 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended 16:08:20 <Zakim> Attendees were +33.4.77.42.aabb, +1.443.212.aacc, Arnaud, +1.707.861.aadd, Peter_Patel-Schneider, MacTed, gavinc, AlexHall, davidwood, Scott_Bauer, Guus, PatH, AZ, yvesr_, 16:08:22 <Zakim> ... +1.781.899.aaff, Sandro, pchampin, +1.650.265.aagg, zwu2, EricP, +1.603.897.aahh, Souri, AndyS, LeeF 16:08:48 <pfps> rrsagent, please draft minutes 16:08:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/09/28-rdf-wg-minutes.html pfps 16:09:14 <gavinc> Those aren't are minutes system btw ;) 16:10:26 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/panel/ # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000294