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16:11:04 <sandro> Guest: Luc Moreau 16:11:09 <sandro> Guest: Paul Groth 16:12:43 <sandro> guest: Kai (Kai_) Eckert 16:11:28 <sandro> guest: Paolo Missier <sandro> Guest: Satya Sahoo <sandro> Guest: Yolanda Gil 16:12:07 <Zakim> +davidwood 16:01:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg 16:01:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/09/15-rdf-wg-irc 16:01:42 <sandro> RRSAgent, make logs public 16:01:45 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg 16:02:01 <sandro> Meeting: Provenance and RDF Graphs -- Coordination Telecon 16:02:13 <sandro> zakim, this is rdfg 16:02:17 <Zakim> ok, sandro; that matches SW_RDFWG(GraphsTF)12:00PM 16:02:52 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: Sept 15 -- Provenance Task Force -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.15 16:02:58 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call? 16:02:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P0, Sandro 16:03:16 <kai_> kai_ has joined #rdf-wg 16:03:31 <Zakim> +??P2 16:03:50 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer 16:03:51 <Zakim> +??P44 16:04:03 <sandro> zakim, ??P2 is Paul_Groth 16:04:03 <Zakim> +Paul_Groth; got it 16:04:09 <kai_> zakim, ??P4 is me. 16:04:09 <Zakim> +kai_; got it 16:04:28 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg 16:04:39 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #rdf-wg 16:04:58 <Zakim> +??P46 16:05:06 <AndyS> zakim, ??P46 is me 16:05:06 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it 16:05:36 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call? 16:05:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P0, Sandro, Paul_Groth, Scott_Bauer, kai_, AndyS 16:06:07 <sandro> zakim, drop ??P0 16:06:07 <Zakim> ??P0 is being disconnected 16:06:09 <Zakim> -??P0 16:06:33 <Zakim> +gavinc 16:07:14 <Scott_Bauer> plans to attend: Antoine Zimmermann, Ted Thibodeau, Andy Seaborne, David Wood, Gavin Carothers, Sandro Hawke, Steve Harris ** may attend: Ivan Herman, Scott Bauer, Pierre-Antoine Champin 16:07:22 <gavinc> zakim, mute me 16:07:23 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted 16:07:33 <Scott_Bauer> ok sorry 16:07:54 <pgroth> Luc Moreau, pgroth, Kai, Paolo, MacTed 16:08:19 <gavinc> I don't think Ralph is going to be here, wasn't sure last night 16:08:35 <Zakim> +AZ 16:08:35 <AndyS> Agenda -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.15 16:08:36 <Luc> Luc has joined #rdf-wg 16:09:29 <AndyS> Material -- http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceRDFNamedGraph 16:09:57 <Zakim> +Luc 16:10:02 <sandro> Luc Moreau, Paul Groth, Kai Eckert, Paolo Missier, Ted Thibodeau 16:10:44 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.15#Admin 16:10:48 <Zakim> +??P52 16:11:01 <Paolo> zakim, ??P52 is me 16:11:01 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it 16:13:25 <Luc> @pgroth, is satya joining? 16:13:34 <pgroth> I don't know 16:15:14 <pgroth> @Luc I have to leave in 40 minutes 16:15:36 <Luc> @pgroth OK 16:16:07 <Paolo> what's happening? 16:16:28 <satya> satya has joined #rdf-wg 16:16:30 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call? 16:16:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, Paul_Groth, Scott_Bauer, kai_, AndyS, gavinc (muted), AZ, Luc, Paolo, davidwood 16:16:44 <Zakim> +Yolanda 16:17:02 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo 16:17:27 <MacTed> Zakim, code? 16:17:27 <Zakim> the conference code is 7334 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:firstname.lastname@example.org), MacTed 16:17:32 <davidwood> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.09.15 16:17:33 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software 16:17:40 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 16:17:40 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it 16:17:42 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 16:17:43 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 16:18:11 <Zakim> -Yolanda 16:18:37 <pgroth> Scribe: Satya Sahoo 16:19:07 <satya> Luc: Introductions for the provenance WG 16:19:49 <satya> Luc: After the first provenance WG F2F, started work on two working drafts 16:20:17 <satya> Luc: 1. First working draft describes the provenance "conceptual model" 16:20:54 <satya> Luc: 2. Second working draft describes encoding the provenance conceptual model in OWL2 16:21:26 <satya> Luc: 3. Third working draft describes the protocol for accessing and querying provenance information 16:22:24 <Luc> q? 16:22:25 <satya> Luc: In future, additional working drafts will be created including a Primer, XML encoding of the provenance conceptual model 16:22:53 <satya> Luc: questions? 16:23:15 <satya> David: The source of the requirement for encoding provenance model in XML? 16:23:33 <sandro> luc: requirement for native XML serialization; some people want that; and JSON serialization. Non-RDF. 16:23:38 <satya> Luc: There has been interest in non-RDF serialization 16:23:45 <gavinc> I'm confused how needing a JSON seralization means we need an XML serialization 16:24:07 <sandro> :-) 16:24:31 <sandro> paul: plan to refer to group of triples by a URI 16:24:31 <satya> David: can you please repeat your initial query 16:24:37 <pgroth> q+ 16:24:40 <Luc> @gavinc, this is a separate requirement, sorry for not being clear 16:24:50 <sandro> s/David:/David,/ 16:25:01 <AndyS> I heard that there was a need for straight XML (charter) and now Luc finds he needs JSON (as well, presumably) 16:25:13 <satya> David: Is there a assumption that a group of RDF triples need to be referred to using an URI? 16:25:20 <Luc> q+ 16:25:25 <satya> Paul: Yes to David's question 16:25:31 <gavinc> Ah, okay thanks AndyS 16:25:49 <Luc> thanks, AndyS 16:25:55 <pgroth> ack pgroth 16:25:56 <satya> Paul: In query and access document, discusses use of URLs 16:25:58 <pgroth> ack Luc 16:26:24 <davidwood> I understand that provenance concerns resources other than RDF :) 16:27:01 <satya> Luc: Uses an example scenario regarding an HTML document, the user tries to retrieve the provenance of the HMTL document 16:27:24 <satya> Luc: Assume the use of HTTP for retrieving the provenance of the HTML document 16:28:00 <Luc> q? 16:29:02 <satya> David: assumes that the resource and the provenance are distinct and can be independently accessed? 16:29:02 <sandro> davidwood: Can I have provancence of an XL spreadsheet without modifying the spreadsheet? 16:29:42 <sandro> gavin, I think you mean "can't *require* modifying...." 16:29:49 <gavinc> errr, yes. 16:29:52 <satya> Luc: There are several mechanism to access the provenance, a document may contain a reference to source to retrieve the provenance 16:29:55 <Luc> q? 16:29:56 <sandro> gavin, Luc is sayin that's one option. 16:30:13 <davidwood> RDF WG Charter: http://www.w3.org/2011/01/rdf-wg-charter 16:30:34 <stain> stain has joined #rdf-wg 16:30:45 <satya> David: Describing RDF named graphs, as described in the RDF WG charter 16:31:11 <satya> David: The description in the RDF WG charter is not definitive, will be decided by the WG 16:31:20 <davidwood> RDF WG requirements: Define terminology in relation to named graphs 16:31:26 <davidwood> "Standardize a model and semantics for multiple graphs and graphs stores" 16:32:04 <sandro> davidwood: THere will be times we want to discuss the proveance of a singel triples, a group of triples, and times we dont' care. 16:32:11 <satya> David: Provenance of a single triple and provenance of a group of triples 16:32:15 <satya> @Sandro :) 16:32:55 <satya> David: The teminology will be decided in future 16:32:59 <sandro> q+ 16:33:03 <Luc> q? 16:33:10 <satya> @Sandro: thanks! It helps, I keep falling behind 16:34:07 <satya> Sandro: The proposal for named graph is minimal, it associated a URI to a group of triples (graph) 16:34:40 <satya> Sandro: It was claimed that this met the requirements stated in the RDF WG charter 16:35:22 <davidwood> Personally (chair hat off), I agree with Sandro on this. 16:35:33 <satya> Sandro: Hope that concrete use cases can be shared by prov WG with RDF WG 16:37:04 <satya> Luc: In SW community, there is a need to be able to make assertions about a group of triples and the RDF WG expects suggestions from prov WG 16:37:13 <sandro> luc: "Provenance and Access Query" -- the problem of how folks give metadata to RDF data. 16:37:31 <sandro> luc: ALSO, we need a way to scope provenance assertions that we've expressed as RDF. 16:37:48 <satya> Luc: Need mechanisms to scope provenance assertions, named graphs may be a mechanism to support it 16:38:17 <davidwood> q+ to ask how a provenance description can refer to a resource that doesn't have a URI. 16:38:25 <satya> Sandro: Luc's example requirement is an advanced requirement for named graph 16:38:46 <gavinc> Can someone write down that "First use case"? 16:39:22 <gavinc> was it "there is a need to be able to make assertions about a group of triples" ? 16:39:55 <satya> Luc: The first use case at http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/paq/provenance-access.html, describes a scenario for retrieving provenance in RDF/XML format of a HTML document 16:40:25 <satya> q+ 16:41:04 <pgroth> ack sandro 16:41:05 <Luc> ack sandro 16:41:11 <satya> Sandro: Need to take a first pass on named graph problem before trying to tackle issue of scoping (?) 16:41:13 <sandro> sandro: I suggest tacking the metadata problem (Luc 1) before the representation/serialization problem (Luc 2). 16:41:57 <satya> David: Worried about some of Luc's assertions related to the provenance use case 16:42:29 <satya> David: What happens if a resource may not have a URI associated with it 16:43:04 <MacTed> q+ to say that the perfect seems to be blocking a starting point 16:43:15 <satya> David: There is a divide in RDF WG - (a) all RDF comes from RDF databases (b) RDF comes from files on the Web 16:43:21 <davidwood> ack davidwood 16:43:22 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to ask how a provenance description can refer to a resource that doesn't have a URI. 16:43:35 <satya> Paul: We would like to address both the issues 16:44:17 <satya> Paul: An entity (file) is identified by a set of characteristics 16:44:57 <Luc> q? 16:45:06 <Luc> ack satya 16:45:56 <sandro> satya: "scoping" brings into question contextualizing, which I don't think the RDF/SemWeb folks have dealt with. There is an assumption that RDF is not related to context. 16:46:02 <sandro> +1 agreed 16:46:10 <MacTed> Zakim, unmte me 16:46:10 <Zakim> I don't understand 'unmte me', MacTed 16:46:16 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me 16:46:16 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted 16:46:22 <Luc> ack mact 16:46:22 <Zakim> MacTed, you wanted to say that the perfect seems to be blocking a starting point 16:47:05 <sandro> MacTed: I'm concerned that people are making very tight readings, when not warranted. downloading from web usually just mean viewing-in-browser. 16:47:21 <satya> MacTed: Terminology used in description of use cases is not very specific, but is being interpreted in that sense 16:47:22 <davidwood> +1 to MacTed. That's another reason we are being careful to define our terminology. 16:47:26 <sandro> MacTed: There is a need to talk about a collected set of triples. "Named Graph". A subset of triples. 16:47:34 <sandro> q? 16:47:36 <sandro> q+ 16:47:59 <sandro> q+ to mention Graphs issues 16:48:06 <satya> MacTed: There is a requirement to be able to refer to a collection of triples 16:48:13 <Luc> q? 16:48:47 <satya> MacTed: Should be able to refer to set of triples consistently by different persons/users 16:49:19 <satya> MacTed: There is communication gap between the RDF WG and prov WG and the call is help reconcile that 16:49:42 <sandro> davidwood: The hope is RDF WG will publish it's chosen terms shortly. 16:49:47 <sandro> ... for public review 16:49:51 <satya> David: Hope to define the terms in RDF WG 16:50:18 <satya> MacTed: The lack of terminology in prov WG is blocking progress 16:50:27 <satya> David: Similar issue in RDF WG 16:50:33 <Luc> q? 16:50:39 <Luc> ack sandro 16:50:39 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to mention Graphs issues 16:50:50 <satya> Sandro: Temporarily agreed on some terms to help progress 16:50:52 <pgroth> q+ 16:51:10 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/GraphConceptTerminology 16:51:32 <gavinc> The temporary terms 16:51:47 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products/1 16:51:48 <satya> Sandro: Gsnap and GBox terms defined in RDF WG 16:52:38 <satya> Sandro: We need to be explicit about the blank nodes - whether they can be shared 16:52:42 <satya> q+ 16:52:47 <davidwood> I expect *any* resource to be ephemeral within some degree of time, so nothing we will do in the RDF WG or the Provenance WG will remove the 404 problem from the Web, nor do we need to try. 16:52:52 <Luc> ack pgro 16:52:57 <sandro> (issue-21 is shared-bnodes) 16:53:20 <gavinc> ISSUE-21? 16:53:20 <trackbot> ISSUE-21 -- Can Node-IDs be shared between parts of a quad/multigraph format? -- open 16:53:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/21 16:53:38 <satya> Paul: can the provenance WG conceptual model document help the RDF WG arrive at common terminology 16:54:02 <davidwood> q+ to ask whether the Provenance WG understands our g-* temporary terminology. 16:54:09 <satya> Luc: Yes, we can explore this 16:54:32 <pgroth> gotta go 16:54:36 <pgroth> good luck everyone 16:54:39 <davidwood> Thanks, Paul 16:54:56 <Zakim> -Paul_Groth 16:55:17 <satya> Luc: Struggled in the provenance WG to define a term for an resource - e.g.: ability to refer to a file at a location with some content and the same file with different content 16:55:38 <Luc> q? 16:55:39 <satya> Luc: Sandro may be referring to the same problem 16:55:42 <AndyS> +1 to show and tell 16:56:01 <Luc> q? 16:56:06 <Luc> ack saty 16:57:15 <satya> Satya: What is the plan for sharing of blank nodes and association of semantics with it? 16:57:32 <satya> Sandro: May modify the skolem function to address this 16:58:12 <satya> David: Has the provenance WG understood the Gsnap, Gbox etc. being used by RDF WG 16:58:21 <davidwood> ack davidwood 16:58:21 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to ask whether the Provenance WG understands our g-* temporary terminology. 16:58:30 <satya> Luc: No, we have not explored the terms 16:58:48 <satya> @Luc: I have to leave 16:58:52 <satya> sorry 16:59:13 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo 16:59:17 <sandro> scribe: sandro 16:59:18 <Paolo> leaving too, thank you 16:59:27 <Zakim> -Paolo 16:59:34 <sandro> luc: What are we doing next, procedurally? 16:59:35 <gavinc> Luc: Wrapping up in the next 10 minutes, rather then talking about an example 16:59:45 <sandro> davidwood: eg schedule next coordination call? 16:59:56 <sandro> davidwood: After F2F, and after WDs. 17:00:06 <sandro> davidwood: 12th & 13th of october. 17:00:08 <sandro> q+ 17:00:16 <gavinc> Could we get shared concrete examples BEFORE the next call? 17:00:22 <AndyS> q+ 17:00:39 <davidwood> Input: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceRDFNamedGraph 17:00:45 <gavinc> sandro: What input do we have? 17:01:16 <gavinc> luc: two kinds of requirements, none of them are expressed at the level of detail mentioned, using temp graphs 17:01:27 <gavinc> sandro: need use cases 17:02:02 <gavinc> sandro: Thought we could get some use cases durring this call 17:02:31 <gavinc> davidwood: Are there one or two use cases that you know we have? 17:02:39 <sandro> sandro: I wanted uses cases before the F2F. Use cases like "communicating that Alice asserted certain triples (mutably, or immutably)". 17:02:50 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call? 17:02:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, Scott_Bauer, kai_, AndyS, gavinc (muted), AZ, Luc, davidwood, MacTed 17:03:53 <Luc> q? 17:03:59 <sandro> ted: Most of the use cases feel self evident, like what Sandro just said. An entity asserts triples; that collection needs to be referred to. If they have to be classed differently based on mutability, then they fall into one of two classes. 17:04:03 <sandro> q- 17:04:15 <sandro> ack AndyS 17:04:19 <sandro> AndyS? 17:05:42 <sandro> AndyS: I think we need to get a lot more concrete on use cases. Some things hard to cover with g-star technology. Because we have two groups, and it's remote, we need VERY concrete cases, with real detail. Within that, decide on one or two we care about most, to be sure they can be done. Some risk that full set of requirements wont be met. 17:06:04 <sandro> ... I can see us taking too long if make it too broad, so let's focus on VERY concrete things that matter. 17:06:11 <davidwood> q+ 17:06:17 <sandro> luc: What's hard to map to g-star? 17:06:23 <sandro> AndyS: yes, but no time right now. 17:06:55 <sandro> AndyS: Show and tell could be good. Hard to tell the other side is bring precise. 17:07:30 <sandro> public-rdf-prov list? 17:07:43 <AndyS> ack me 17:08:12 <sandro> luc: Ted and Sandro write it down and let Prov-WG review it. 17:09:10 <kai_> q+ to ask for bridge persons between the two groups 17:09:58 <sandro> kai_: We're looking for bridge group. 17:10:19 <Luc> ack kai 17:10:19 <Zakim> kai_, you wanted to ask for bridge persons between the two groups 17:11:00 <sandro> davidwood: Can we agree to only refer to things by URI ? 17:11:14 <davidwood> ack me 17:12:03 <sandro> luc: Ultimately, we want to talk about provenance of resources, but we don't jhave the final story. Using URIs is definitely one of our hypotheses. 17:12:12 <kai_> I ask people who are interested to help in the communication between the two groups to contact me. 17:12:18 <Luc> q? 17:12:20 <sandro> luc: davidwood can you ask this to the new mailing list? 17:12:31 <sandro> kai_, why not just ask themt o join the list? 17:12:36 <MacTed> from my perspective, Prov is *not* only interested in provenance of "web" resources nor "resources" per se -- but *entities* 17:13:04 <kai_> @sandro works, too :-) 17:13:05 <davidwood> MacTed, what is an entity? 17:13:13 <MacTed> a thing which can be named 17:13:26 <gavinc> Named with what? ;) 17:13:32 <davidwood> Named via a URI? ;) 17:13:33 <gavinc> say ... an IRI? ;) 17:13:45 <davidwood> s/URI/IRI/ 17:14:28 <Luc> q? 17:14:38 <AZ> bye 17:14:42 <Zakim> -MacTed 17:14:43 <MacTed> preferably, yes -- IRI. my concern is not to limit to "resource" nor "web resource" -- because when docs are written that way, people take them to be not viable for concrete things 17:14:43 <Zakim> -Luc 17:14:44 <Zakim> -davidwood 17:14:45 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer 17:14:46 <Zakim> -gavinc 17:14:46 <Zakim> -Sandro 17:14:47 <Zakim> -kai_ 17:14:50 <Zakim> -AndyS 17:14:54 <Zakim> -AZ 17:14:55 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG(GraphsTF)12:00PM has ended 17:14:56 <MacTed> (where "concrete" means "not network transmissible") 17:14:57 <Zakim> Attendees were Sandro, Scott_Bauer, Paul_Groth, kai_, AndyS, gavinc, AZ, Luc, Paolo, davidwood, Yolanda, Satya_Sahoo, MacTed 17:15:41 <davidwood> MacTed, REST allows *anything* to be a resource. 17:15:51 <davidwood> …and thus named 17:16:12 <sandro> ie Ted is talking about "Non-Information-Resources" # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. 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