Chatlog 2011-08-17

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14:59:40 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:40 <RRSAgent> logging to
14:59:49 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
14:59:53 <AndyS> rrsagent, make logs public
14:59:59 <mbrunati> mbrunati has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:11 <mischat_> mischat_ has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:13 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
15:00:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, +20598aaaa, Peter_Patel-Schneider
15:00:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see mischat_, mbrunati, RRSAgent, Zakim, FabGandon, AndyS, Scott_Bauer, Guus, gavinc, cygri, MacTed, mischat, tomayac, SteveH, davidwood, manu1, trackbot, NickH, manu,
15:00:16 <SteveH> Zakim, what is the code?
15:00:16 <Zakim> ... ericP
15:00:17 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, SteveH
15:00:32 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:33 <Zakim> +DavidW
15:00:34 <Guus> zakim, who is yalking?
15:00:34 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, Guus.
15:00:44 <pfps> sounds LOVELY!
15:00:45 <Guus> Zakim, who is talking?
15:00:52 <Zakim> +Marcelo
15:00:56 <Zakim> Guus, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (59%)
15:00:58 <cygri> zakim, Marcelo is me
15:00:58 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
15:01:03 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:01:07 <Zakim> +??P9
15:01:12 <davidwood> Zakim, DavidW is me
15:01:13 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:01:14 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P9 is [Garlik]
15:01:14 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:01:15 <AndyS> redialing ...
15:01:17 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
15:01:19 <Zakim> +Tony
15:01:21 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:01:23 <Zakim> +[Garlik]; got it
15:01:25 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:01:29 <Zakim> +tomayac
15:01:31 <Zakim> -AndyS
15:01:31 <SteveH> Zakim, [Garlik] has SteveH, mischat 
15:01:32 <Scott_Bauer> zakim, tony is me
15:01:43 <Zakim> +SteveH, mischat; got it
15:01:45 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer; got it
15:01:57 <Zakim> +??P12
15:02:03 <AndyS> zakim, ??P12 is me
15:02:09 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:02:13 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:14 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
15:02:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see +20598aaaa, Peter_Patel-Schneider, davidwood, cygri, MacTed (muted), [Garlik], Scott_Bauer, tomayac, AndyS
15:02:27 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:28 <zwu2> zakim, code?
15:02:30 <Zakim> [Garlik] has SteveH, mischat
15:02:42 <Zakim> +ericP
15:02:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see zwu2, pfps, mischat, mbrunati, RRSAgent, Zakim, FabGandon, AndyS, Scott_Bauer, Guus, gavinc, cygri, MacTed, tomayac, SteveH, davidwood, manu1, trackbot, NickH, manu,
15:02:55 <Zakim> ... ericP
15:02:57 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, zwu2
15:03:05 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aabb
15:03:12 <gavinc> zakim, aabb is me
15:03:31 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it
15:04:19 <Zakim> +[Sophia]
15:04:20 <PatHayes> PatHayes has joined #rdf-wg
15:04:30 <Zakim> +??P21
15:04:33 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aacc
15:04:44 <pchampin> zakim, ??P21 is me
15:04:44 <zwu2> zakim, +1.650.265.aacc is me
15:04:49 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
15:04:50 <FabGandon> Zakim, +[Sophia] is me
15:04:59 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
15:04:59 <cygri>
15:05:01 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
15:05:02 <pchampin> zakim, mute me
15:05:09 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
15:05:11 <Zakim> sorry, FabGandon, I do not recognize a party named '+[Sophia]'
15:05:19 <Zakim> pchampin should now be muted
15:05:21 <FabGandon> zakim, sophia is me
15:05:30 <gavinc> gavinc has changed the topic to: (gavinc)
15:05:35 <Zakim> +FabGandon; got it
15:05:37 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
15:05:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see +20598aaaa, Peter_Patel-Schneider, davidwood, cygri, MacTed (muted), [Garlik], Scott_Bauer, tomayac, AndyS, ericP, gavinc, FabGandon, pchampin (muted), zwu2
15:05:43 <ericP> ericP has changed the topic to: RDF WG telecon: agenda
15:05:48 <Zakim> ... (muted)
15:05:54 <Zakim> [Garlik] has SteveH, mischat
15:05:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see PatHayes, pchampin, zwu2, pfps, mischat, mbrunati, RRSAgent, Zakim, FabGandon, AndyS, Scott_Bauer, Guus, gavinc, cygri, MacTed, tomayac, SteveH, davidwood, manu1,
15:06:01 <Zakim> ... trackbot, NickH, manu, ericP
15:06:04 <Zakim> +PatH
15:06:38 <PatHayes> zakim, mute me
15:06:38 <Zakim> sorry, PatHayes, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:07:27 <PatHayes> PatHayes is PatH
15:08:38 <ericP> PROPOSED: accept as a record of the 3 Aug telecon as amended per
15:09:48 <ericP> APPROVED
15:09:55 <ericP> RESOLVED
15:09:59 <mischat> zakim, +PatH is PatHayes 
15:09:59 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '+PatH'
15:11:07 <mbrunati> sorry guys today I'm only via irc, some problems with the audio
15:11:14 <ericP> ACTION: FabGandon to implement
15:11:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-73 - Implement [on Fabien Gandon - due 2011-08-24].
15:13:39 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:13:48 <Zakim> +??P29
15:13:58 <NickH> Zakim, ??P29 is me
15:13:58 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
15:14:02 <NickH> zakim, mute me
15:14:02 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
15:14:10 <Zakim> +Souri
15:14:16 <ericP>  ACTION-65: CONTINUED
15:14:16 <trackbot> ACTION-65 And Pat to consider what words to add to minimal proposal. notes added
15:14:29 <ericP>  ACTION-66: CONTINUED
15:14:29 <trackbot> ACTION-66 Contact Paul notes added
15:14:47 <ericP>  ACTION-67: CONTINUED
15:14:47 <trackbot> ACTION-67 Review Pierre-A's comments on SPARQL graph store upade protocol notes added
15:15:07 <ericP>  ACTION-68: CONTINUED
15:15:07 <trackbot> ACTION-68 Review Pierre-A's comments on SPARQL graph store upade protocol notes added
15:15:47 <ericP>  ACTION-69: CONTINUED
15:15:47 <trackbot> ACTION-69 Update Turtle issue list to reflect current status notes added
15:16:03 <ericP>  ACTION-70: CONTINUED
15:16:03 <trackbot> ACTION-70 Send email to provenance WG chairs about a joint call notes added
15:16:08 <ericP>  ACTION-71: CONTINUED
15:16:09 <trackbot> ACTION-71 Email about joint task force, or something. maybe include RDFa and SPARQL notes added
15:17:06 <ericP> topic: next telecon
15:17:38 <ericP> davidwood: i proposed by email that ivan chair a meeting about RDF JSON work
15:17:52 <ericP> whois tomayac 
15:18:25 <ericP> tomayac: Ian will put the doc in version control and we'll review
15:18:41 <ericP> ... in 1.5 weeks we should have something to disucss re: JSON
15:19:15 <ericP> davidwood: does the JSON LD work obviate our need to continue our work?
15:19:37 <ericP> tomayac: i'm slightly confused about the JSON LD work
15:19:50 <manu> zakim, code?
15:19:50 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, manu
15:20:02 <ericP> ... ivan said we'd start with the Talis JSON and proceed to JSON LD
15:20:18 <Zakim> +??P32
15:20:20 <ericP> ... progress in the JSON LD task force
15:20:24 <manu> zakim, I am ??P32
15:20:24 <Zakim> +manu; got it
15:20:54 <manu> q+
15:21:14 <ericP> davidwood: given manu's assertion that JSON LD meets all stated use cases so perhaps we should avoid making a competing spec
15:21:31 <ericP> manu: i still need to review the RDF JSON use cases
15:21:55 <ericP> ... some diligence required to confirm the claim that JSON LD work meets all stated use cases
15:22:04 <ericP> ... should have a document in 2 months
15:22:20 <ericP> ... (JSON LD)
15:22:53 <ericP> ... we just need to examine both approaches
15:23:09 <gavinc>
15:23:23 <manu>
15:23:41 <ericP> ... there's a JSON LD playground which shows the choices of input and output
15:24:08 <ericP> ... shows a set of examples in different JSON representations
15:24:22 <ericP> ... spec defines the round-trip to RDF/XML
15:24:40 <ericP> ... the first 20% should be sufficient prep for next week
15:25:04 <ericP> ... then go ahead and play with the playground
15:25:30 <ericP> ACTION: manu to send JSON discussion preparation message to public-rdf-wd
15:25:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-74 - Send JSON discussion preparation message to public-rdf-wd [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-08-24].
15:25:31 <tomayac> it was resolved in
15:25:53 <ericP> next telecon: 24 Aug
15:25:54 <tomayac> from issue 2: "(1) Incubate on something like JSON-LD, (2) make a REC on something like Talis RDF/JSON, and (3) make a Note on current practice stuff like Linked Data API, at FTF1"
15:26:06 <ericP> topic FTF2 Admin 
15:26:09 <ericP> topic: FTF2 Admin 
15:26:21 <tomayac> ian's and my doc will thus cover (2)
15:26:31 <ericP> Guus: please fill in
15:26:59 <ericP> cygri: we need UK site decision expected next week
15:27:08 <ericP> ... would help to know how many folks to expect
15:27:14 <NickH> If people want to have a meeting in London, then I am sure the BBC can work something out
15:27:15 <ericP> Guus: i see 4 so far
15:27:27 <NickH> we have a lot of meeting rooms!
15:27:38 <pchampin> I didn't update the wiki page yet, but I will only be able to join if there is a european location
15:27:39 <gavinc> It looked like it was a Europe F2F with a remote at MIT ;)
15:27:59 <AndyS> OxfordU/comp lab has a setup that works with MIT [no WG member?]
15:28:06 <ericP> Guus: i can imagine half in UK, half at MIT
15:28:21 <ericP> topic: Turtle 
15:28:44 <ericP> -> Turtle FPWD news item
15:28:50 <mischat> i had asked soton uni, but it coincided with the "freshers week" which meant that rooms would have been hard to come by
15:28:57 <ericP> Guus: editors need to monitor the comments list
15:29:22 <Zakim> -manu
15:29:53 <ericP> ... someone should mail the semweb lists
15:30:07 <ericP> gavinc: already one feedback from bob charm
15:30:51 <ericP> ACTION: Guus to send mail to semantic web and LOD lists requesting feedback on Turtle FPWD
15:30:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-75 - Send mail to semantic web and LOD lists requesting feedback on Turtle FPWD [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-08-24].
15:31:10 <ericP> Guus: if folks want to distribute this more widely, go ahead
15:31:51 <ericP> gavinc: this WG is not lisverva subscribable
15:32:51 <ericP> ericP: i don't think we've made DBWG and listserve work together
15:33:05 <ericP> topic: RDF Concepts
15:33:18 <Zakim> +tomayac.a
15:33:23 <ericP> -> editor's draft
15:33:44 <ericP> -> decision to publish
15:33:54 <cygri>
15:33:55 <ericP> Guus: are editors still intereted in feedback?
15:34:03 <Guus> q?
15:34:13 <ericP> cygri: sure, but i'd say we're good enough to publish now
15:34:28 <ericP> ... we could pick a date and get to what we can before the pub date
15:34:43 <ericP> davidwood: i propose we make a transition request
15:35:10 <ericP> Guus: there are comments, but if you don't want to address them before publication, go ahead
15:35:24 <mischat> i have gone through the document abstract concept documents too, nothing but minor issues, i will send it round at some point soon 
15:35:44 <ericP> davidwood: i'd like to make the transition request and make changes in parallel
15:35:45 <ericP> q+
15:35:55 <ericP> q-
15:36:43 <gavinc> +q
15:37:21 <gavinc> -q
15:37:30 <ericP> ericP: note that the WG is permitting the editors to make changes after the decision to publish
15:37:45 <ericP> topic: ISSUE-12 language-tagged literals 
15:38:01 <davidwood> Transition request for RDF Concepts to FPWD sent
15:38:34 <ericP> AndyS: cygri introduced two classes: rdf:text is the current plain literals and langstring, including xsd:string
15:39:01 <cygri> q+
15:39:12 <ericP> PatHayes: all seems fine except the open question about whether it's a new datatype
15:39:25 <ericP> ... i'm happy to make it a datatype; i see it's a small change
15:39:38 <mischat> ok
15:39:38 <cygri> q-
15:39:45 <ericP> ... there are some who see this change as large
15:40:13 <gavinc> can OWL datatype properties be used with literals without a datatype?
15:40:23 <AndyS> sorry - will redial
15:40:30 <Zakim> -AndyS
15:40:55 <ericP> ... what value do we get out of it being a datatype?
15:41:06 <ericP> AndyS: principally uniformity
15:41:09 <Zakim> +??P12
15:41:16 <AndyS> zakim, ??P12 is me
15:41:16 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:42:02 <ericP> AndyS: current datatype of "" or ""@en is an error
15:42:04 <cygri> q+
15:42:36 <AndyS> rdf:LangString
15:42:38 <ericP> PatHayes: i see that as sufficient motivation to make rdf:langString a datatype
15:43:02 <ericP> cygri: an concearned that this proposal changes the way datatypes work
15:43:17 <manu> ack manu
15:43:19 <Guus> q+
15:43:26 <AndyS> q+
15:43:38 <ericP> ... lang-tagged string has an atypical lexical form
15:43:46 <ericP> ... is there a work-around?
15:44:22 <ericP> ... e.g. say that rdf:langStrings have no lexical to value mapping?
15:45:25 <ericP> AndyS: a few options:
15:45:26 <Guus> q?
15:45:30 <cygri> ackm e
15:45:31 <cygri> ack me
15:45:36 <Guus> ack me
15:45:42 <Guus> ack AndyS
15:45:51 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?
15:45:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see +20598aaaa, Peter_Patel-Schneider, davidwood, cygri, MacTed (muted), [Garlik], Scott_Bauer, tomayac, ericP, gavinc, FabGandon, pchampin (muted), zwu2 (muted),
15:45:54 <ericP> ... cygri's: that there be no valid LtoV for rdf:langStrings
15:45:55 <Zakim> ... PatH, NickH (muted), Souri, tomayac.a, AndyS
15:45:56 <Zakim> [Garlik] has SteveH, mischat
15:46:40 <ericP> ... modify the LtoV, which is parameterized by the datatype. extend the function to take a language parameter
15:46:50 <pchampin> q+
15:47:03 <ericP> PatHayes: can say that LtoV operates on a lexical form + a tag
15:47:17 <AndyS> ack me
15:47:28 <Guus> ack pchampin
15:47:44 <PatHayes> very rough sound
15:47:59 <PatHayes> better
15:48:03 <AndyS> could you type into IRC?
15:48:18 <NickH> sorry, can't understand
15:48:25 <pchampin> sorry
15:48:38 <gavinc> zakim, mute pchampin
15:48:38 <Zakim> pchampin should now be muted
15:48:43 <pchampin> to AndyS's remark: having a valid lexical form makes it cumbersome, see PlainLiteral
15:48:56 <PatHayes> agree.
15:49:15 <pchampin> to Pat's remark: using the full lexical form will raise problems with Turtle, which has syntactic sugar for some datatypes
15:49:55 <AndyS> The lexical part is the string - not encoded (c.f. rdf:PlainLiteral). Add extra info to the process by some means
15:50:00 <PatHayes> any syntax that can describe tags, can be used unchanged.
15:50:00 <ericP> cygri: it looks like we have consensus about what we want rdf:langString to look like, but we need to work to implementation details
15:50:16 <PatHayes> the only change is to the abstract model.
15:50:40 <ericP> ... this will change the terminology. past changes and these invalidate the term "plain literal"
15:50:46 <PatHayes> 'plain
15:50:58 <PatHayes> ' is now a type. no prblem 
15:51:00 <PatHayes> ;-
15:51:04 <AndyS> I don't think it must change Turtle - it's a mechanism along side short forms like integer or decimal or double.
15:51:15 <ericP> ... we want to avoid the impression that we've radically changed the language (which i don't believe we have)
15:51:19 <AndyS> plain literal = rdf:Text
15:51:20 <AndyS> ??
15:51:29 <ericP> Guus: you can connect the old terminology to the current form
15:51:40 <PatHayes> really, this is a storm in a teacup.
15:52:22 <PatHayes> I could try to summarize the options in an email.
15:52:36 <PatHayes> I see four so far.
15:52:38 <PatHayes> yes
15:52:51 <ericP> ericP: are there any disiderada which help us figure the implementation
15:52:52 <PatHayes> ok
15:53:05 <AndyS> Thanks Pat
15:53:21 <ericP> ACTION: PatHayes to summarize the options
15:53:21 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - PatHayes
15:53:28 <ericP> ACTION: PatH to summarize the options
15:53:35 <ericP> action -4
15:54:07 <ericP> Guus: editors will have to look closely at PatHayes's summary
15:54:30 <ericP> topic: WG priorities before F2F
15:55:16 <ericP> Guus: which are the highest priority issues?
15:55:20 <pchampin> +1
15:55:20 <ericP> ... propose named graphs
15:55:37 <ericP> cygri: agreed. the rdf:langString seems to be making good progress
15:56:25 <ericP> davidwood: we're going to have a hard time writing documents and proposing changes to SPARQL until we have nailed down the multi-graph terminology
15:56:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-76 - Summarize the options [on Patrick Hayes - due 2011-08-24].
15:56:37 <trackbot> Sorry, bad ACTION syntax
15:56:42 <ericP> Guus: ok, multi-graph. what else?
15:56:58 <ericP> cygri: what are the objections against using the SPARQL dataset design?
15:57:16 <ericP> ... sandro, pchampin, PatHayes aren't happy
15:59:31 <cygri>
15:59:47 <ericP> ACTION: cygri to add strawman rdf dataset proposal to concepts
15:59:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-77 - Add strawman rdf dataset proposal to concepts [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-08-24].
16:00:06 <PatHayes> Actually, PatH is getting to the point where he almost doesnt care what terminology is used, as long as we settle on something.
16:00:07 <AndyS> Probably too weak/loose/open/flexible for this WG
16:00:19 <ericP> Guus: priorities for Turtle?
16:00:25 <pchampin> @cygri: I have to get up to date with the mailing list (I'm just back from holiday), but I as soon as I'm up to date, I can try to summarize in a mail what makes me unhappy in the SPARQL dataset model
16:01:33 <AndyS>
16:01:48 <ericP> gavinc: talking to AndyS yesterday, ericP and I thought that N-Triples would be going into the Turtle doc
16:02:00 <ericP> ... but apparently there was a WG decision to publish separately?
16:02:57 <ericP> Guus: there are many motivations to publish separately
16:03:37 <cygri> gavinc, i'm pretty sure there wasn't any resolution on this yet. discussion but no resolution. discussion is in the F2F1 minutes, day1+day2
16:03:56 <ericP> ... but no cost to start with it as an appendix
16:04:57 <ericP> ACTION: ericP to add content as an appendix to Turtle editor's draft before F2F
16:04:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-78 - Add content as an appendix to Turtle editor's draft before F2F [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2011-08-24].
16:05:28 <FabGandon> FabGandon has left #rdf-wg
16:05:44 <Zakim> -FabGandon
16:06:03 <ericP> Guus: JSON work will be discussed next week. priority discussion deferred 'till then
16:06:42 <ericP> ... is it worth starting on the semantics document?
16:07:03 <ericP> PatHayes: we could start in parallel noting that terminology will shift
16:07:15 <ericP> pfps, agreed?
16:09:02 <ericP> Guus: we have separate editors listed for N-Triples
16:09:13 <ericP> ... which means they are likely to comment on gavinc's draft
16:09:30 <ericP> ... i think that the primer is good to write near the end
16:09:41 <ericP> PatHayes: propose we gather examples
16:10:38 <ericP> ACTION: Guus to discuss with FabGandon about where to put examples and what to do with primary before F2F
16:10:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-79 - Discuss with FabGandon about where to put examples and what to do with primary before F2F [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-08-24].
16:10:57 <ericP> Guus: leave Trig and quad syntax for later?
16:11:12 <ericP> ... leave RDF/XML for later?
16:11:13 <PatHayes> i have to leave soon. Andy, can you email me the current plain/lang literal terminology?
16:11:24 <ericP> davidwood: we're motivated to touch RDF/XML only once
16:11:58 <ericP> ADJOURNED
16:12:03 <AndyS> Richard - do you want to let PatH know your current state on terminology?  I'll resend email he may have lost
16:12:30 <Zakim> -PatH
16:12:42 <AndyS> Regrets for next week.
16:12:50 <pchampin>
16:12:53 <cygri> AndyS, ok i'll do that
16:12:56 <pchampin> here is the link
16:13:00 <Zakim> -davidwood
16:13:04 <Zakim> -[Garlik]
16:13:09 <cygri> ericP,
16:13:11 <cygri> start there
16:13:11 <Zakim> -Souri
16:13:13 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:13:13 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:13:19 <Zakim> -zwu2
16:13:20 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer
16:13:20 <Zakim> -cygri
16:13:51 <ericP> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:13:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate ericP