Chatlog 2011-08-03

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14:22:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:22:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/03-rdf-wg-irc
14:22:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:22:15 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:22:17 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
14:22:17 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 38 minutes
14:22:18 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:22:18 <trackbot> Date: 03 August 2011
14:39:08 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
14:53:55 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
14:54:02 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aaaa
14:54:09 <gavinc> zakim, aaaa is me
14:54:09 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it
14:54:22 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
14:56:58 <Scott_Bauer> Scott_Bauer has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:23 <SteveH> Zakim, what is the code?
14:58:23 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), SteveH
14:58:34 <Zakim> +??P11
14:58:37 <pchampin> pchampin has left #rdf-wg
14:58:39 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P11 is me
14:58:39 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
14:58:45 <mbrunati> mbrunati has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:48 <Zakim> +David_Wood
14:59:57 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:59:57 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:59:59 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:00:15 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:19 <davidwood> Zakim, you appear to be a goldfish
15:00:19 <Zakim> I don't understand 'you appear to be a goldfish', davidwood
15:00:34 <AndyS1> AndyS1 has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:42 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:00:53 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:00:53 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:00:54 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:00:55 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:01:08 <Zakim> +??P6
15:01:13 <cygri> zakim, what's the code?
15:01:13 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), cygri
15:01:19 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:23 <Zakim> +Souri
15:01:35 <AndyS1> zakim, ??P6 is me
15:01:35 <Zakim> +AndyS1; got it
15:01:39 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:45 <zwu2> zakim, code?
15:01:45 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2
15:01:48 <Zakim> +??P4
15:01:55 <pchampin> zakim, ??P4 is me
15:01:55 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
15:02:03 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
15:02:04 <ivan> zakim, who is noisy?
15:02:11 <pchampin> zakim, mute me
15:02:11 <Zakim> pchampin should now be muted
15:02:13 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is me
15:02:13 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
15:02:15 <Zakim> ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pchampin (45%), mhausenblas (10%)
15:02:20 <Zakim> +Tony
15:02:26 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aabb
15:02:32 <Scott_Bauer> zakim, tony is me
15:02:32 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer; got it
15:02:34 <zwu2> zakim, +1.650.265.aabb is me
15:02:34 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
15:02:46 <Zakim> +ericP
15:03:19 <ericP> gavinc, what are the contra-indications for publishing in HTML4.01 for this version?
15:03:29 <ericP> uncool?
15:03:33 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:41 <Zakim> +??P1
15:03:43 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:54 <mbrunati> zakim, ??P1 is me
15:03:54 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
15:04:03 <AndyS1> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, SteveH, David_Wood, Ivan, MacTed (muted), AndyS1, Souri, pchampin (muted), cygri, Scott_Bauer, zwu2, ericP, mbrunati
15:04:04 <gavinc> I have no objections to publishing an HTML 4.01 document that is ALSO valid according to validator.nu 
15:04:32 <cygri> pchampin, if nathan isn't around today, do you want to scribe?
15:04:42 <pchampin> I can scribe
15:04:42 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aacc
15:04:50 <AlexHall> zakim, aacc is me
15:04:50 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
15:04:59 <pchampin> scribe: pchampin
15:05:14 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 20 July telecon:
15:05:14 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-07-20
15:06:27 <pchampin> RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 20 July telecon
15:06:31 <davidwood> Action item review:
15:06:31 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - item
15:06:31 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
15:06:31 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
15:06:34 <pchampin> topic: open action items
15:08:23 <pchampin> david: all people having open actions are not here today
15:08:28 <AZ> I am but I'm not on the phone
15:08:56 <AZ> hmm, I completely forgot my action
15:09:53 <davidwood> Gavin and Eric P were speaking
15:10:01 <davidwood> They are the editors of the Turtle document
15:10:08 <pchampin> topic: Turtle moving to First Public Draft
15:11:09 <ivan> q+
15:11:27 <Zakim> +??P21
15:11:31 <pchampin> eric: problems with embedding Turtle in HTML
15:11:37 <NickH> zakim, ??P21 is me
15:11:37 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
15:11:49 <NickH> zakim, mute me
15:11:49 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
15:12:25 <pchampin> ... especially if you want the Turtle to be copy-paste-able from the source
15:12:43 <pchampin> ... (if the scribe got it right)
15:13:16 <pchampin> Ivan: could be solved in ReSpec
15:13:27 <Zakim> + +34.92.38.aadd
15:14:01 <FabGandon> Zakim, 34.92.38.aadd is FabGandon
15:14:01 <Zakim> sorry, FabGandon, I do not recognize a party named '34.92.38.aadd'
15:14:17 <FabGandon> Zakim, aadd is FabGandon
15:14:17 <Zakim> +FabGandon; got it
15:14:31 <Zakim> + +33.9.54.07.aaee
15:14:44 <pchampin> gavin: using CDATA does not work with non-XML-aware browsers
15:14:58 <AZ> zakim, +33.9.54.07.aaee is me
15:14:58 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
15:15:07 <AZ> zakim, mute me
15:15:07 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
15:15:15 <pchampin> david: couldn't some javascript help?
15:15:46 <pchampin> gavin: I don't think we can publish a document with its content dynamically modified by javascript
15:16:28 <pchampin> ivan: I don't really care about being able to copy-paste turtle form the source; I can do that from the browser
15:16:45 <ericP> swallow our pride? what are we then?
15:16:55 <pchampin> xxx: would make it easier to work with XSL-T as well, though
15:17:04 <ericP> +1 to just publishing <-encoded turtle
15:18:05 <ericP> q+ to ask about RDFa
15:18:12 <pchampin> ivan: we can have all Turtle examples as seperate files, use them to generate the spec (with < encoding), and point in the spec to an archive with all the example as plain Turtle
15:18:42 <pchampin> pchampin: +1 to Ivan's proposal
15:19:18 <pchampin> s/xxx/eric/
15:20:24 <pchampin> eric: we should apply the solution that allows us to publish sooner
15:20:51 <ivan> gavin, the rdfa source: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-core/Overview-src.html
15:21:28 <ivan> q-
15:21:31 <ericP> q-
15:21:52 <pchampin> topic: FTF2 Admin
15:21:54 <davidwood> FTF2 Admin
15:21:54 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F2
15:23:10 <pchampin> david: people need to edit the wikipage above to indicate whether they will attend physically, remotely, or not
15:25:45 <pchampin> david: it was proposed to have videoconference link with DERI for people from europe who could not come to MIT
15:26:03 <pchampin> richard: it was proposed, but I'm not sure if that will be possible
15:26:04 <AndyS1> Hello
15:26:33 <pchampin> ... should be confirmed by someone who knows more what equipment will be available on both sides
15:26:37 <FabGandon> q+ to mention discussions for having facilities for F2F meetings at WWW 2012 + 3rd F2F of RDF 1.1
15:27:43 <davidwood> ack FabGandon
15:27:43 <Zakim> FabGandon, you wanted to mention discussions for having facilities for F2F meetings at WWW 2012 + 3rd F2F of RDF 1.1
15:27:47 <AndyS1> Oxford end was in computer lab.  Worked well.
15:28:32 <pchampin> fabien: wanted to mentionned on-going discussion with WWW 2012 organizers to have FTF3 there
15:28:42 <ericP> -> http://tig.csail.mit.edu/twiki/bin/view/Ops/VideoConference MIT teleconferencing equipment
15:29:01 <AndyS1> Poll was: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/46168/F2F2-EAST/
15:29:13 <gavinc> Yes
15:29:17 <gavinc> Link works
15:29:51 <pchampin> richard: I will check if the equipment pointed to by eric will work with our equipments at DERI
15:31:03 <pchampin> ivan: I think there was also an offer to host the meeting at the Lucent labs in Dublin, have to check with Chris
15:31:09 <cygri> ACTION: richard to check if DERI video conferencing equipment is compatible with http://tig.csail.mit.edu/twiki/bin/view/Ops/VideoConference for F2F2
15:31:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-72 - Check if DERI video conferencing equipment is compatible with http://tig.csail.mit.edu/twiki/bin/view/Ops/VideoConference for F2F2 [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-08-10].
15:31:26 <pchampin> topic: RDF Concepts Editors Draft 
15:32:24 <pchampin> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html
15:32:28 <ivan> q+
15:32:29 <davidwood> q?
15:32:34 <davidwood> ack ivan
15:32:41 <pchampin> richard: I can turn it from an editor's draft to a working draft
15:33:13 <pchampin> ivan: administrative question: is it possible to publish it in the same move as the Turtle document?
15:33:23 <pchampin> david: I don't care
15:33:51 <Zakim> -AZ
15:33:58 <pchampin> ... I would even prefer two distinct announcements
15:34:36 <pchampin> gavin: if published separately, they can not formaly refer to each other
15:34:53 <ivan> q+
15:35:02 <Zakim> +AZ
15:35:03 <pchampin> david: not a problem at this stage, but may be we should record an issue to remember to update the links
15:35:13 <AZ> zakim, mute me
15:35:13 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
15:36:23 <pchampin> richard: I need to know what will be the short name, the date of the document
15:36:39 <pchampin> gavin: the webmaster will tell you when you publish the document
15:37:00 <pchampin> ... I can help you in the process, just went through it
15:37:23 <pchampin> ivan: do we use the same short names as the original RDF or different ones?
15:38:02 <pchampin> richard: I think we discussed this a time ago: new short name during the development (rdf11-*) and in the end replace the original short names
15:39:30 <pchampin> ivan: the short name needs to be approved; we need to provide a short description of the document to Thomas, but he is in vacations now
15:39:56 <pchampin> ... once this is done and the short name is approved, richard has to contact the webmaster
15:41:41 <pchampin> david: if we agree here, I'll call a call for consensus on the list so that everyone can express
15:41:57 <pchampin> ivan: we should record it as a resolution
15:42:08 <mischat> i wonder who will be updating the RDF related validators on w3.org ...
15:42:14 <pchampin> PROPOSED: move RDF-Concepts to 1st public working draft
15:42:21 <davidwood> +1
15:42:22 <ivan> +1
15:42:23 <AndyS1> +1 (Apache)
15:42:24 <cygri> +1
15:42:25 <gavinc> +1
15:42:27 <zwu2> +1
15:42:28 <mbrunati> +1
15:42:29 <pchampin> pchampin: +1
15:42:30 <MacTed> +1
15:42:36 <mischat> +!
15:42:37 <mischat> +1
15:42:43 <AZ> +1
15:42:49 <AlexHall> +1
15:42:51 <SteveH> +1
15:43:19 <ivan> RESOLVED: move RDF-Concepts to 1st public working draft
15:43:49 <Souri> +1
15:43:58 <gavinc> Turtle version: Turtle is already a reasonably settled serialization of RDF. Many implementations of Turtle already exist, we are hoping for feedback from those existing implementers and other people deciding that now would be a good time to support Turtle. There are still a few rough edges that need polishing, and better alignment with the SPARQL triple patterns. The working group does not expect to make any large changes to the existing syntax. 
15:45:39 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-rdf-concepts-20020829/
15:46:00 <AndyS1> http://www.w3.org/2001/06/manual/#Status
15:46:39 <gavinc> When I wrote the Turtle one I was unable to find any good examples :\
15:46:47 <pchampin> ivan: Richard should write a paragraph similar to the one in the Turtle document (quoted by Gavin above) and send it to the rest of the group
15:48:15 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
15:48:24 <davidwood> TimBL expressed the goal of the custom paragraph this way, "Don't be afraid of being honest about the relevant techno-political situation." 
15:48:25 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: David_Wood (25%), FabGandon (20%)
15:48:25 <pchampin> david: the link pasted by Andy is correct, but does not provide much guidance
15:48:43 <ivan> zakim, mute FabGandon 
15:48:43 <Zakim> FabGandon should now be muted
15:48:56 <AndyS1> Good news, this does not happen every publication cycle.
15:48:57 <davidwood> Introduction of RDF/XML spec doesn't explain relationship to RDF Concepts
15:48:57 <davidwood>  http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/72
15:49:46 <mischat>  s/n3/ntriples/
15:51:21 <pchampin> gavin: I think the Turtle document does a slightly better job
15:51:22 <gavinc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-parsing-triples
15:51:32 <pchampin> ... is that what you mean?
15:54:01 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-rdf-syntax/#section-Syntax-intro
15:54:11 <mischat> cygri: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-intro
15:55:42 <FabGandon> zakim, unmute FabGandon
15:55:42 <Zakim> FabGandon should no longer be muted
15:55:59 <pchampin> ivan: I'm scared of touching the RDF/XML document
15:56:11 <pchampin> david: we have to align it with the terminology, though
15:56:18 <cygri> q+
15:56:30 <pchampin> ... and to update the links
15:56:34 <davidwood> ack ivan
15:56:58 <pchampin> ivan: unfortunatelly
15:57:02 <davidwood> ack cygri
15:57:51 <pchampin> richard: some things really have to be done, including correcting some errors that have been spotted
15:58:05 <pchampin> ... also, making it clear that this is just *one* syntax for an RDF graph
15:58:38 <pchampin> ... though I can understand the arguments against touching the document at all
15:58:52 <cygri> ivan++
15:59:03 <pchampin> ivan: we can agree that any change we do is purely editorial
15:59:26 <mischat> is s/rdf graph/$somethingMoreModern/ considered an editorial change 
15:59:27 <mischat> ?
15:59:49 <pchampin> david: should this be a resolution?
16:00:02 <pchampin> ivan: yes, it's probably good to have it
16:00:37 <ivan> PROPOSED: the working group agrees that the RDF/XML document will have to undergo a minimal, editorial change to fit into the new set of recommendations (update of references, terms, etc)
16:00:56 <cygri> +1
16:00:57 <MacTed> +1
16:00:58 <gavinc> +ugh
16:00:59 <ivan> +1
16:01:00 <FabGandon> +1
16:01:01 <zwu2> +1
16:01:01 <mbrunati> +1
16:01:04 <davidwood> +1
16:01:05 <AZ> +1
16:01:08 <SteveH> +1
16:01:09 <Souri> +1
16:01:10 <AndyS1> +1
16:01:14 <AlexHall> +1
16:01:29 <ivan> RESOLVED:  the working group agrees that the RDF/XML document will have to undergo a minimal, editorial change to fit into the new set of recommendations (update of references, terms, etc)
16:01:43 <mischat> still thinks that s/rdf graph/XXXX/ would be nice ...
16:02:08 <Zakim> -Souri
16:02:30 <pchampin> david: I don't want to open the can of worm "Graph terminology" given the remaining time
16:02:58 <pchampin> ivan: will the terminology appear in the RDF Concepts document?
16:03:01 <pchampin> david: yes
16:03:05 <cygri> ivan, long answer: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html#section-multigraph
16:04:09 <pchampin> ivan: from the last emails, it seems we are reaching consensus
16:04:58 <pchampin> david: I agree, but I don't want to settle this issue in august, without some of the people that will want to be very careful about it
16:05:23 <pchampin> topic: ISSUE-12 language-tagged literals
16:05:00 <davidwood> Proposal for ISSUE-12 language-tagged literals
16:05:05 <davidwood> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jul/0048.html
16:06:03 <pchampin> richard: I can summarize the proposal:
16:06:15 <pchampin> ... don't change the way literals with language tag work
16:07:25 <pchampin> ... propose to call them 'language-tagged strings' because the old term "plain literals with language tag" does not makes sense anymore
16:07:43 <pchampin> ... introduce a class rdf:LangString to allow it as rdfs:range of properties
16:08:43 <ivan> q+
16:08:56 <pchampin> andy: I would prefer literals with language tag to have a datatype
16:10:56 <pchampin> ... with only one datatype covering all language tags
16:11:04 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:11:05 <ivan> q-
16:11:34 <pchampin> ivan: in a sense, I'm in favor with what Andy says;
16:11:41 <cygri> q+ to say that there are no datatype properties in rdf
16:12:16 <pchampin> ... using rdf:LangString as the range of a datatype-property, if rdf:LangString is not a datatype, is strange from an user's point of view
16:12:21 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:12:22 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to say that there are no datatype properties in rdf
16:13:06 <davidwood> …but the OWL and RIF WGs will be concerned with higher-level schemas
16:13:09 <pchampin> richard: I think that is a non issue; the distinction between object-properties and datatype-properties in not part of RDF
16:13:16 <pchampin> ivan: but we can't ignore it
16:13:55 <pchampin> richard: but the issue is not new, then: rdf:Literal is already a class
16:14:30 <cygri> q+
16:14:52 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:15:32 <AndyS1> q+
16:15:54 <AndyS1> q+ to say that is heading to langtag = implicit datatype.
16:16:33 <pchampin> richard: I have two concerns:
16:16:51 <pchampin> ... 1/ the complexity of a conceptual framework with (lexical form, datatype, language tag)
16:17:02 <pchampin> ... where language tag can only be present if datatype has certain values
16:17:09 <pchampin> ... 2/ abusing the notion of datatype
16:17:11 <AndyS1> There are numbers you can't write down already.
16:17:32 <davidwood> ack AndyS
16:17:32 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to say that is heading to langtag = implicit datatype.
16:18:15 <Zakim> -NickH
16:18:18 <pchampin> pchampin: @AndyS: are those numbers (that you can't write down) part of any xsd datatype??
16:19:11 <Zakim> -ericP
16:19:34 <pchampin> david: should we revisit the datatype discussion based on the new perspective you brought (single datatype, instead of one datatype per language tag)?
16:19:39 <AndyS1> They are in the value space which is the number line :-)
16:20:16 <pchampin> david: we have to adjourn now; next telecon in two weeks
16:20:18 <SteveH> bye
16:20:19 <zwu2> bye
16:20:20 <Zakim> -AZ
16:20:22 <mbrunati> bye
16:20:22 <Zakim> -SteveH
16:20:26 <Zakim> -AlexHall
16:20:32 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
16:20:33 <Zakim> -mbrunati
16:20:47 <pchampin> RRSagent, make minutes
16:20:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/03-rdf-wg-minutes.html pchampin
16:20:47 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:20:49 <Zakim> -David_Wood
16:20:50 <Zakim> -cygri
16:20:51 <Zakim> -zwu2
16:20:52 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:21:04 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer
16:21:09 <Zakim> -AndyS1
16:21:10 <Zakim> -FabGandon
16:21:16 <cygri> gavinc, i'll try to do �the FPWD thing in ReSpec. might come to you with questions.
16:21:30 <gavinc> cygri sounds good
16:21:40 <Zakim> -gavinc
16:22:29 <Zakim> -pchampin
16:22:30 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
16:22:32 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.707.861.aaaa, gavinc, SteveH, David_Wood, Ivan, MacTed, Souri, AndyS1, pchampin, cygri, Scott_Bauer, zwu2, ericP, mbrunati, +1.443.212.aacc, AlexHall, NickH,
16:22:35 <Zakim> ... +34.92.38.aadd, FabGandon, AZ
16:22:58 <pchampin> can anyone help me with the publishing of the minutes on the wiki?
16:23:06 <FabGandon> FabGandon has left #rdf-wg
16:23:18 <gavinc> Okay, I think I have javascript that turns all the examples <scripts> into <divs>
16:23:20 <gavinc> what fun
16:23:57 <pchampin> RRSagant, make records public
16:24:13 <pchampin> RRSagent, make records public
16:25:45 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
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