Chatlog 2011-07-20

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14:57:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:57:48 <RRSAgent> logging to
14:58:19 <gavinc> zakim, this is rdfwg
14:58:19 <Zakim> ok, gavinc; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
14:58:29 <yvesr> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:58:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.707.861.aaaa, +20598aabb, ??P9
14:58:37 <gavinc> zakim, aaaa is me
14:58:37 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it
14:58:45 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P9 is me
14:58:45 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
14:58:53 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:16 <Zakim> +Tony
14:59:33 <Scott_Bauer> Zakim, Tony is me
14:59:33 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer; got it
15:00:25 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
15:00:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, +20598aabb, yvesr, Scott_Bauer
15:00:26 <MacTed> Zakim, code?
15:00:26 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200, MacTed
15:00:28 <Zakim> +??P15
15:00:34 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:00:35 <AndyS> zakim, ??P15 is me
15:00:35 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:00:40 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:00:40 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:00:42 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:00:42 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:01:00 <Guus> zakim, +20598aabb is me
15:01:00 <Zakim> +Guus; got it
15:01:03 <Zakim> +EricP
15:01:23 <Zakim> + +1.540.898.aacc
15:01:54 <Zakim> + +539149aadd
15:02:04 <davidwood> Zakim, aacc is me
15:02:05 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
15:02:07 <tomayac> tomayac has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:22 <LeeF> LeeF has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:39 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:02:42 <cygri> zakim, aadd is me
15:02:42 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
15:03:04 <Zakim> +??P22
15:03:13 <Zakim> + +1.617.553.aaee
15:03:17 <LeeF> zakim, aaee is me
15:03:17 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
15:03:28 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P22 is me
15:03:28 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
15:03:41 <cygri> scribe: cygri
15:03:44 <Zakim> +??P26
15:03:53 <mischat> zakim, ??P26 is me
15:03:55 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
15:03:57 <Zakim> -SteveH
15:03:59 <mischat> zakim, mute me 
15:04:01 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
15:04:07 <Zakim> +??P27
15:04:12 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P27 is me
15:04:13 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
15:04:17 <cygri> topic: Admin
15:04:35 <Zakim> +??P22
15:04:51 <mbrunati> zakim, ??P22 is me
15:04:51 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
15:05:06 <cygri> PROPOSAL: accept last week's minutes
15:05:25 <cygri> RESOLUTION: accept last week's minutes
15:05:27 <Zakim> +Bert
15:05:36 <cygri> topic: Action item review
15:05:49 <FabGandon> Zakim, Bert is me
15:05:49 <Zakim> +FabGandon; got it
15:05:55 <Zakim> + +1.404.978.aaff
15:06:06 <cygri> guus: richard did ACTION-64, it's done, close it
15:06:13 <tomayac> zakim, aaff is me
15:06:13 <Zakim> +tomayac; got it
15:06:32 <cygri> sandro: didn't do ACTION-52 yet
15:06:56 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:07:42 <cygri> cygri: ACTION-62 done on list (not on wiki)
15:08:06 <cygri> ACTION-65?
15:08:07 <trackbot> ACTION-65 -- Sandro Hawke to and Pat to consider what words to add to minimal proposal. -- due 2011-06-29 -- OPEN
15:08:07 <trackbot>
15:08:17 <Zakim> +??P5
15:08:18 <cygri> sandro: not yet done
15:08:26 <NickH> zakim, ??P5 is me
15:08:26 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
15:08:31 <NickH> zakim, mute me
15:08:31 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
15:08:32 <cygri> guus: ACTION-66 not yet done, paul on holiday
15:08:39 <yvesr> Zakim, mute me
15:08:39 <Zakim> yvesr should now be muted
15:08:41 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:09:08 <cygri> ... ACTION-67 and ACTION-68 remain open
15:09:34 <cygri> ... next telecon is August 3
15:09:47 <cygri> davidwood: i can chair on that date
15:09:55 <cygri> topic: Turtle Editors Draft
15:10:04 <cygri> guus: davidwood made transition request
15:10:11 <cygri> ... there are still admin things to be done
15:10:30 <gavinc> Turtle is already a reasonably settled serialization of RDF. Many implementations of Turtle already exist, we are hoping for feedback from those existing implementors and other people deciding that now would be a good time to support Turtle. There are still a few rough edges that need polishing, and better alignment with the SPARQL triple patterns. The working group does not expect to make any large changes to the existing syntax. 
15:10:40 <cygri> gavinc: we now have status paragraph that the WG needs to agree to
15:11:04 <cygri> davidwood: we need to find words in this telecon that reflect the status as the WG sees it
15:11:23 <pchampin> pchampin has left #rdf-wg
15:11:49 <cygri> guus: i'm happy with the text
15:11:49 <ericP> +1 to text
15:11:53 <AndyS> Looks good for WD
15:12:12 <cygri> PROPOSAL: accept status text as proposed
15:12:24 <cygri> RESOLUTION: accept turtle status text as proposed
15:13:06 <Zakim> +wcandillon
15:13:11 <cygri> sandro: technically speaking, the team contacts write this text. discussing it is fine though
15:13:19 <AZ> Zakim, wcandillon is me
15:13:19 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
15:13:33 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:13:53 <cygri> guus: i'd like to take brief look on turtle issues
15:14:35 <cygri> gavinc: most of these issues are already resolved, just not closed
15:14:50 <Zakim> +??P31
15:15:27 <AndyS> ISSUE-1 => ISSUE-19 , ISSUE-20
15:15:54 <cygri> ericP: (discussion of ISSUE-67)
15:16:16 <cygri> ericP: SPARQL is changing escaping rules
15:16:34 <AndyS> Why \u in prefix part?  What is it escaping?
15:16:35 <cygri> ... used to escape everywhere; now escapes only certain places; discussion is which places exactly
15:16:44 <Souri> Souri has joined #RDF-WG
15:16:57 <cygri> guus: gavin, can you take action to update the issue list?
15:17:04 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aagg
15:17:06 <cygri> ACTION: gavinc to update Turtle issue list to reflect current status
15:17:18 <Souri> zakim, aagg is me
15:17:18 <Zakim> +Souri; got it
15:17:32 <gavinc>
15:17:45 <cygri> gavinc: (discusses the section on relationship between turtle and n-triples)
15:18:29 <cygri> ericP: question to the community is whether they'd want a section that describes the subset of turtle that's n-triples
15:19:05 <cygri> gavinc: defining n-triples as part of turtle would have implications on utf-8 support
15:19:24 <AndyS> q+ to ask about MIME types
15:19:49 <cygri> ericP: we could publish n-triples as part of turtle, or as a separate document
15:20:04 <cygri> AndyS: if we make it a chapter, then how do we handle the media type registration?
15:20:08 <Souri> +1 to ericP's proposal that we add a section that describes the subset of turtle that's n-triples or as a separate document
15:20:17 <ericP> current media type for ntriples is text/plain
15:20:19 <cygri> gavinc: that's a problem. we may be better off making a separate document
15:20:33 <cygri> ... otoh, it means more boilerplate and more document than we really need
15:20:38 <NickH> +1 to getting a proper MIME type for n-triples
15:21:13 <cygri> guus: can you make a proposal?
15:21:31 <cygri> gavinc: it would have wide-ranging implications. it's defined in a different document that we may not plan to change?
15:21:41 <cygri> AndyS: it's currently defined in the RDF Test Cases document
15:21:55 <cygri> gavinc: it's a bit weird at the moment, parts are informative
15:21:56 <AndyS> New MIME type - text/plain is "unhelpful" at best.
15:22:04 <cygri> guus: i agree. that's something we want to fix
15:22:04 <pchampin> is the plan to make n-triples accept UTF-8?
15:22:36 <cygri> gavinc: can we have a poll? separate document vs. section in turtle?
15:23:23 <cygri> ericP: if nt is ASCII only, then that's a bigger change, not quite just subset
15:23:28 <cygri> sandro: POLL:   (1) ntriples in turtle document, (2) ntriples in its own document
15:23:47 <sandro> 1
15:23:53 <gavinc> 1
15:23:53 <yvesr> 1
15:23:56 <cygri> cygri: 2
15:23:58 <mbrunati> 1
15:24:02 <AndyS> Don't care : UTF-8 v important.
15:24:04 <davidwood> 1
15:24:06 <AZ> 0 (not decided)
15:24:08 <Guus> 1
15:24:14 <pchampin> 0 (not decided)
15:24:25 <Souri> don't care
15:24:25 <cygri> ericP: we can go FPWD with turtle now either way
15:24:29 <MacTed> 0
15:24:35 <tomayac> 0
15:25:08 <cygri> guus: let's do poll on UTF-8 vs ascii to?
15:25:12 <cygri> s/to/too/
15:25:50 <SteveH> I don't prefer ASCII, FWIW
15:25:51 <cygri> (discussion of performance of utf-8 vs ascii)
15:25:56 <SteveH> I'd rather have UTF-8
15:26:07 <cygri> q+
15:26:13 <AndyS> ack me
15:26:13 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about MIME types
15:26:18 <davidwood> utf-8++
15:26:21 <yvesr> +1 on utf-8
15:26:25 <NickH> +1 on utf-8
15:26:36 <cygri> +1 on utf-8
15:26:38 <tomayac> utf-8
15:26:38 <Guus> 0
15:26:41 <LeeF> 0
15:26:42 <pchampin> would utf-8 mean that \uXXXX are not allowed anymore ?
15:26:43 <ericP> -.5 to utf-8
15:26:46 <mbrunati> +1 on utf-8
15:26:47 <yvesr> (seems slighly weird it's not yet!)
15:26:47 <AndyS> +1 to UTF-8
15:26:48 <sandro> 0
15:26:55 <SteveH> +1 to UTF-8
15:27:01 <cygri> gavinc: \uXXXX would still be legal
15:27:01 <gavinc> +1 utf-8
15:27:18 <pchampin> so it means that there are several ways to serialize the same graph in n-triples?
15:27:23 <cygri> ericP: for high throughput, ascii is faster
15:27:33 <pchampin> makes it grep/sed/sort-unfriendly
15:27:35 <SteveH> I dispute "much" as well
15:27:38 <cygri> AndyS: i don't think it's much faster
15:27:40 <AndyS1> AndyS1 has joined #rdf-wg
15:28:04 <cygri> ericP: only reason for using nt is performance
15:28:13 <NickH> you can write a much faster parser, if you know to only expect n-triples
15:28:46 <cygri> AndyS: i got 90k with turtle and 120k with nt, with same character conversion code
15:28:52 <yvesr> NickH, yes, it still need to have its own mimetype
15:28:58 <SteveH> pchampin, modern grep etc. is UTF-8 compatible
15:29:07 <cygri> (discussion of lexing and escaping)
15:29:56 <pchampin> @steveh: yes, but grep does not know that "\uc3a9" is the same as "é", or does it??
15:30:11 <SteveH> pchampin, that's not a UTF-8 thing though
15:30:16 <Guus> q?
15:30:19 <NickH> yvesr: yes, it needs its own MIME type
15:30:22 <Guus> ack cygri
15:30:35 <AndyS> Can delay Unicode conversion and work in bytes only in UTF-8
15:30:53 <cygri> cygri: serializers would become simpler if utf-8 was allowed
15:30:40 <yvesr> cygri, +1
15:30:47 <NickH> AndyS: yes!
15:31:04 <cygri> gavinc: last time we had objection from oracle
15:31:14 <cygri> souri: we use n-triples a lot
15:31:50 <cygri> ... we'll have to modify our software if we get input that uses utf-8
15:32:00 <SteveH> a new name would make some sense
15:32:06 <SteveH> q+
15:32:09 <cygri> ... we'd prefer calling the new thing something else, n-triples prime or so
15:32:13 <cygri> q-
15:32:22 <pchampin> q+ to ask about multiple n-triples serialization for the same graph
15:32:47 <cygri> gavinc: is there an issue if the utf-8 version gets a new media type?
15:32:55 <AndyS> ericP - you are confusing bytes and codepoints.
15:33:05 <cygri> souri: we need to talk about it internally. might be able to tell you more next week
15:33:17 <cygri> steveh: in our code, the change was not that difficult
15:33:31 <cygri> ... the problem is deployed software that claims to handle n-triples
15:33:59 <Guus> ack SteveH
15:34:02 <cygri> ... there will be confusion if deployed software has to deal with new data that uses utf-8
15:34:04 <cygri> souri: exactly
15:34:44 <pchampin> I seem to remember a use case of NT:
15:34:44 <AndyS> ericP - that's one way of doing it.  There are others. e.g. Do checking of points elsewhere - lots (and lots!) of impl choices
15:34:52 <yvesr> n-triples 1.1?
15:34:55 <pchampin> handling it with text-based tools, such as grep, sed...
15:35:25 <yvesr> pchampin, recent versions of those text-based tools deal with utf-8 correctly 
15:35:45 <cygri> ericP: we should publish it with an issue that says: we'll make n-triples utf-8, but some people might prefer an ascii version
15:36:13 <cygri> guus: is everyone ok with proceeding in that way?
15:36:14 <yvesr> pchampin, from grep's man "also work on UTF-8 files and 16-bit wide Unicode files"
15:36:19 <cygri> souri: yes
15:36:59 <cygri> gavinc: there's still some text in the document that claims that turtle is a subset of n3
15:37:05 <cygri> ... that's not strictly true any more
15:37:17 <cygri> ... i'd like wg feedback
15:37:27 <gavinc> "It is intended to be compatible with, and a subset of, Notation 3."
15:37:45 <AndyS> q+ to ask about motivation of text
15:37:48 <cygri> ericP: i suspect tim will change n3 according to what we do with turtle
15:38:14 <cygri> guus: i'd like to  have a statement in there that says what the issue is, without formal claim about subset 
15:38:15 <NickH> I agree that Turtle doesn't need to be a format subset of N3
15:38:17 <NickH> formal
15:38:21 <NickH> +1 to AndyS 
15:38:26 <gavinc> +1
15:38:32 <cygri> AndyS: the spec currently says, it's a *goal* to be a subset of n3
15:38:41 <cygri> ... we want to make turtle a free-standing language
15:38:45 <AndyS> ack me
15:38:45 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about motivation of text
15:38:47 <gavinc> Perfectly happy to have N3 say "I'm an extension of Turtle" ;)
15:38:50 <pchampin> q-
15:38:52 <sandro> Yeah.   "Turtle is similar to, inspired by, and largely compatible with N3"
15:38:55 <cygri> ... n3 is not a standard
15:38:56 <Guus> make provenace clear, nof formal subset statement
15:39:01 <cygri> q+
15:39:13 <cygri> ericP: there are some ppl who come to rdf via n3
15:39:18 <yvesr> +1 - it could make a reference to it though
15:39:21 <yvesr> inspired by?
15:39:25 <cygri> AndyS: i don't see any point in documenting the differences
15:39:36 <cygri> ... n3 will change, so this will be updated
15:39:41 <LeeF> +100 to AndyS
15:39:45 <NickH> +1 to AndyS 
15:39:50 <pchampin> +1 to andyS
15:39:50 <SteveH> +1
15:39:52 <yvesr> +1
15:39:53 <Guus> ack cygri
15:39:54 <Souri> +1 to AndyS
15:39:54 <gavinc> +infinity 
15:40:02 <sandro> yvesr, why do you ask "inspired by" ?     That's a polite way to say 'a blatant ripoff", right?  :-) 
15:40:16 <yvesr> sandro, heh :) yes, sort of
15:40:21 <ericP> cygri: "The genesis of Turtle is N3"
15:40:32 <ericP> ... i don't see value in detailing the differences
15:40:33 <mischat> i see no reason to talk about n3, +1 AndyS 
15:40:39 <Guus> ack yvesr
15:40:45 <ericP> ... "N3 is a more powerful predecessor of Turtle."
15:40:57 <gavinc> "While Notation 3 (N3) syntax played a large role in the creation of Turtle they are not strictly compatable."
15:40:58 <cygri> yvesr: we can leave it to the N3 spec to discuss this in detail 
15:41:03 <gavinc> that's in the text already
15:41:11 <cygri> ... just have historic note mentioning n3 in turtle
15:41:22 <cygri> gavinc: ok, so i'll do this change before FPWD
15:41:25 <LeeF> gavinc, in that above sentence, s/compatable/compatible :-)
15:41:46 <AndyS> Imagine in +10years,  what should the doc say?  Do specs record history? Not a conf paper.
15:41:49 <sandro> Guus, still totally breaking up....
15:41:52 <gavinc> ah yes, being able to spell
15:42:02 <cygri> guus: ... ... editorial disgression ... ...
15:42:40 <cygri> topic: Graph terminology
15:42:58 <cygri> q+
15:43:14 <cygri> guus: trying to summarize the consensus:
15:43:20 <cygri> ... g-snap = RDF graph
15:43:33 <sandro> q+
15:45:51 <cygri> cygri: we have a proposal on the table, just adopt SPARQL's design. i want to hear clearly articulated what the problem is about that proposal
15:45:58 <cygri> sandro: sparql misuses the term graph
15:46:18 <cygri> ... you can't do provenance if you don't know what's mutable and what's not
15:46:24 <sandro> not the spec, but often the community, and it's ambiguous.
15:46:30 <cygri> ... (not the sparql spec, but the community misuses the term)
15:47:07 <sandro> q?
15:47:16 <ericP> scribenick: pchampin
15:47:26 <Guus> thx pa
15:47:41 <ericP> scribenick: ericP
15:47:42 <pchampin> cygri: sandro, are you saying that the spec is not appropriate for doing provenanve? or are just ppl using it the wrong way?
15:47:46 <ericP> scribenick: pchampin 
15:48:19 <pchampin> sandro: the RDF spec should be more useful for doing provenance
15:48:42 <pchampin> cygri: which use case is not currently solved with the SPARQL proposal?
15:49:15 <sandro> q?
15:49:24 <ericP> we could just provide terms to document the state of the universe at an instant
15:49:42 <Guus> ack cygri
15:49:45 <ericP> so we could just use graph for g-snap and let other invent g-box etc.
15:49:50 <Guus> ack sandro
15:50:18 <pchampin> sandro: (some distinction btw g-snap and g-box, unmutable vs. mutable graph)
15:50:35 <AndyS> In SPARQL, graphs are immutable values. Graph store is slots holding values.
15:50:39 <pchampin> cygri: the current RDF model does not take time into account; a graph is a snapshot view of the world
15:51:31 <pchampin> sandro: agreed, RDF is about snapshots, but computers often deal with changing things
15:51:36 <Guus> "RDF graph" in SPARQL doc = g-box, in RDF docs = g-snap?
15:52:04 <pchampin> cygri: you can make an RDF statement like "this graph is the state of that thing", "this graph is valid from time t0 to time t1"
15:52:26 <AndyS> Guus, RDF graph = g-snap.
15:52:30 <AZ> Guus, RDF graph is a set of triples in RDF specs *and* in SPARQL specs
15:52:37 <pchampin> ... provided the correct vocabulary; but this group does not have to provide such a vocabulary, only the underlying data model
15:53:07 <AndyS> q+ to ask Sandro about spec text he thinks is unhelpful.
15:53:08 <AZ> Guus, but SPARQL use the word "graph" in the phrase "named graph", in which case it's mutable
15:53:11 <pchampin> sandro: either us or the provenance WG has to do it
15:53:17 <pchampin> ... or a joint task force
15:53:30 <pchampin> q+ to ask a question to Richard
15:54:12 <pchampin> cygri: we should ask the provenance WG whether they have use cases that the SPARQL model does not solve
15:54:20 <Guus> ack AndyS
15:54:20 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask Sandro about spec text he thinks is unhelpful.
15:54:54 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:54:54 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
15:54:55 <MacTed> q+
15:55:00 <cygri> scribe: cygri
15:55:55 <cygri> sandro: for provenance use cases, you need a tight association between the triples in a graph, and the URI we make provenance statements about
15:56:18 <danbri_> danbri_ has joined #rdf-wg
15:56:46 <pchampin> @Andy, this is related: what is named in SPARQL-update ? (imutable) graphs or slots?
15:57:01 <MacTed> containers and contained is the issue I see....  trying to respect vocal queue....
15:57:02 <cygri> gavinc: is there a way in SPARQL 1.1 to name a graph and freeze that graph?
15:57:24 <cygri> AndyS: no
15:57:33 <cygri> sandro: that's the kind of functionality that would be needed for provenance
15:57:41 <Guus> ack pchampin
15:57:41 <Zakim> pchampin, you wanted to ask a question to Richard
15:57:45 <AndyS> ack me
15:57:46 <pchampin> my question to Richard:
15:58:06 <pchampin> if we define precisely a data model
15:58:16 <pchampin> what is the cost of defining the associated vocabulary?
15:58:38 <pchampin> :-)
15:58:45 <AndyS> Freeze a value is HTTP GET :-)
15:58:56 <pchampin> (I think you stated that we need to define a data model, but not the vocabulary for representing it)
15:59:00 <gavinc> But that doesn't freeze the NAME
15:59:01 <pchampin> yes, I'm suggesting that it is low
15:59:18 <gavinc> I think that's really all we need?
15:59:29 <pchampin> cygri: provenance is a complex issue
15:59:46 <pchampin> cygri:  ppl have been working for quite a while on an implicit named graph model
16:00:00 <AndyS> Name is the serialization if you want to use with a store with change-of-slot value.  Or use  store that uses naming how you want.
16:00:05 <pchampin> cygri: we need to provide an explicit model for them (charter of the groupe)
16:00:09 <pchampin> s/named graph/multi-graph/
16:00:20 <FabGandon> q+ there are two kinds of vocabularies.
16:00:25 <pchampin> cygri: but we don't need to enter into detail provenance use cases
16:00:28 <sandro> q?
16:00:54 <cygri> MacTed: i see a lack of coherent account of containers and contained structures
16:01:09 <cygri> ... in the SQL world, there's a concept of a database
16:01:13 <FabGandon> q+ to say there are two kinds of vocabularies.
16:01:17 <cygri> .. that's somewhat equivalent to RDF store
16:01:29 <cygri> ... a database contains catalogs, which contains schemas, which contains tables
16:01:41 <cygri> ... RDF stores contain graphs, which are somewhat equivalent to catalogs
16:01:49 <cygri> ... (or that's how people use them)
16:02:11 <cygri> ... the term graph here is horribly overused
16:02:27 <cygri> ... it can mean catalog, snapshot, etc etc
16:02:30 <gavinc> Also amusing issue with Turtle in HTML: is a set of RDF Graphs, Dataset? ;)
16:02:37 <cygri> ... we need more specific terms for more specific things
16:02:59 <cygri> ... without more specific terms, provenance cannot succeed
16:03:04 <cygri> cygri: kinda +1 to MacTed
16:03:09 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:03:09 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:03:16 <Guus> +1 to MacTed
16:03:17 <MacTed> ack 
16:03:27 <Guus> q?
16:03:30 <MacTed> ack me
16:03:34 <cygri> gavinc: i had multiple bits of turtle in one html file. what should i call these things?
16:03:40 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:03:40 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:03:43 <MacTed> q-
16:03:44 <cygri> davidwood: how about dataset?
16:03:56 <cygri> gavinc: well but that's a SPARQL term
16:04:24 <cygri> FabGandon: for me there are two kinds of vocabularies, domain dependent and domain independent
16:04:29 <Guus> ack FabGandon
16:04:30 <Zakim> FabGandon, you wanted to say there are two kinds of vocabularies.
16:04:54 <cygri> ... for the provenance WG, something like attaching the date to a graph should be defined not by the RDF WG, but by the prov WG
16:04:57 <AndyS> an RDF dataset is {G,(URIi, Gi)}  -- Gavinc seems to want {Gi} (set of graphs? set of g-texts?)
16:05:10 <MacTed> date of g-text falls into the "metadata" about that g-text ... but g-text needs that name in order to have such metadata...
16:05:18 <gavinc> Yeah, how do those graphs in the Turtle HTML get named?
16:05:28 <cygri> ... but stating that something is a g-text should be done by the RDF WG
16:05:29 <sandro> +1 we should be doing the vocab for talking about RDF (eg the replacement for RDF reification)
16:06:22 <cygri> gavinc: my problem was that i have a single HTML document that contains multiple ... g-texts? g-snaps? that are not particularly named ...
16:06:23 <sandro> they get named via HTML id's, I think.
16:06:36 <cygri> ... so it's multiple graphs in one document
16:06:50 <cygri> AndyS: there are other collections of RDF graphs that are not RDF datasets
16:07:06 <cygri> gavinc: yes and we need more specific terms
16:07:20 <cygri> sandro: this should say SPARQL dataset, not RDF dataset
16:07:28 <cygri> AndyS: SPARQL term is RDF dataset
16:07:52 <LeeF> I would object to redefining the term "RDF dataset"
16:09:11 <cygri> sandro: dataset is such a good term, it's a shame to use it for such a peculiar thing as a SPARQL dataset
16:09:23 <pchampin> graphset ?
16:10:12 <sandro> sandro: so maybe the turtle texts each get their html ID, forming named graphs in the dataset, and the RDF or un-id'd turtle goes into the default graph.
16:10:22 <cygri> guus: i think we made some progress here. is it useful to involve the provenance wg?
16:10:31 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:10:31 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:10:40 <cygri> ... my feeling is we should still make up our minds on terminology
16:10:43 <Guus> q?
16:10:51 <cygri> sandro: i think some sort of liaison would be helpful
16:10:59 <cygri> ... to get their use cases clear
16:11:11 <cygri> ... maybe a joint TF
16:11:31 <cygri> ... or communicate via documents. they have a primary use case written up on their wiki
16:11:42 <cygri> MacTed: i think some cross-pollination is necessary
16:12:15 <cygri> ... many WGs look at small-case stuff without realizing that they're looking at a small part
16:12:23 <cygri> ... that's the root of many problems
16:12:43 <AndyS> From the XG:
16:12:52 <Guus> oroisal for joint RDF-Prov TF; who are volunteers to join?
16:13:13 <Guus> s/oroisal/proposal
16:13:50 <cygri> ... (discussion on philosophy of changing terms etc)
16:14:54 <cygri> guus: we're out of time. any volunteers for a joint TF with prov group?
16:14:58 <sandro> I'll join such a call
16:15:05 <cygri> MacTed: i'd join
16:15:11 <cygri> s/TF/call/
16:15:24 <cygri> guus: i can organize such a call. not likely to happen before august
16:15:27 <gavinc> ... I'll join... wince
16:15:31 <cygri> cygri: i'd join too
16:15:31 <Souri> I'd like to join also
16:15:50 <AZ> I think I'd join too
16:16:03 <pchampin> depending on the time slot, I'll try to join as well
16:16:16 <cygri> ACTION: guus to send email to provenance WG chairs about a joint call
16:16:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-70 - Send email to provenance WG chairs about a joint call [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-07-27].
16:16:36 <sandro> action: guus to email about joint task force, or something.   maybe include RDFa and SPARQL
16:16:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-71 - Email about joint task force, or something.   maybe include RDFa and SPARQL [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-07-27].
16:16:48 <cygri> MacTed: might want to involve more than these groups. also SPARQL, rdb2rdf, rdfa ...
16:16:51 <gavinc> ... how owl:imports acts ... :\
16:17:30 <Zakim> -Souri
16:17:30 <cygri> guus: adjourned
16:20:22 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
16:20:24 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.707.861.aaaa, gavinc, yvesr, Scott_Bauer, AndyS, MacTed, Guus, EricP, +1.540.898.aacc, +539149aadd, davidwood, Sandro, cygri, +1.617.553.aaee, LeeF, SteveH,
16:20:26 <Zakim> ... mischat, mbrunati, FabGandon, +1.404.978.aaff, tomayac, NickH, AZ, pchampin, +1.603.897.aagg, Souri
16:21:21 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
16:23:40 <cygri> RRSAgent, make logs public