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Chatlog 2011-03-16
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14:52:49 <JFB> JFB has joined #rdf-wg 14:53:10 <mbrunati> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.16 14:56:16 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg 14:56:22 <mbrunati> zakim, who is on the phone? 14:56:22 <Zakim> sorry, mbrunati, I don't know what conference this is 14:56:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfps, JFB, Zakim, RRSAgent, OlivierCorby, AxelPolleres, mbrunati, LeeF_, LeeF, hsbauer, webr3, mischat, danbri, ivan, yvesr, davidwood, NickH, manu1, manu, sandro, 14:56:26 <Zakim> ... trackbot 14:57:21 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg 14:58:03 <LeeF> zakim, this will be rdfwg 14:58:03 <Zakim> ok, LeeF, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started 14:58:08 <mbrunati> zakim, who is on the phone? 14:58:09 <mbrunati> regrets: Antoine Zimmermann, Nathan 14:58:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tony, ??P4, [IPcaller] 14:58:13 <LeeF> zakim, code? 14:58:13 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), LeeF 14:58:17 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer? 14:58:17 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-rdf-wg-irc#T14-58-17 14:58:19 <yvesr> Zakim: ??P4 is yvesr 14:58:25 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P4 is yvesr 14:58:25 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it 14:58:36 <mbrunati> zakim, [IPCaller] is me 14:58:36 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it 14:58:39 <yvesr> Zakim, who is on the phone? 14:58:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tony, yvesr, mbrunati 14:58:43 <Zakim> + +34.67.92.aaaa 14:58:49 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider 14:58:53 <Zakim> +??P12 14:58:57 <Zakim> + +1.617.553.aabb 14:59:02 <LeeF> zakim, aabb is me 14:59:02 <Zakim> + +34.92.38.aacc 14:59:02 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it 14:59:03 <mbrunati> scribe: mbrunati 14:59:07 <JFB> +34.67.92.aaaa is JFB 14:59:11 <Zakim> +Sandro 14:59:16 <Zakim> +??P15 14:59:18 <manu> zakim, I am ??aabb 14:59:18 <Zakim> sorry, manu, I do not see a party named '??aabb' 14:59:24 <AndyS> zakim, ??p15 is me 14:59:25 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres 14:59:25 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it 14:59:26 <gavin> gavin has joined #rdf-wg 14:59:28 <manu> zakim, I am aabb 14:59:30 <JFB> zakim, +34.67.92.aaaa is JFB 14:59:31 <Zakim> sorry, manu, I do not see a party named 'aabb' 14:59:33 <Zakim> +JFB; got it 14:59:37 <mbrunati> zakim, who is on the phone? 14:59:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, mbrunati, JFB, Peter_Patel-Schneider, ??P12, LeeF, +34.92.38.aacc, Sandro, AndyS, AxelPolleres 14:59:39 <manu> zakim, I am +1.617.553.aabb 14:59:42 <Zakim> sorry, manu, I do not see a party named '+1.617.553.aabb' 14:59:44 <Zakim> +Tony 14:59:50 <OlivierCorby> zakim, aacc is me 14:59:50 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby; got it 14:59:52 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg 14:59:54 <Zakim> -??P12 15:00:30 <Zakim> +??P12 15:00:38 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aadd 15:00:39 <manu> zakim, I am ??P12 15:00:39 <Zakim> +manu; got it 15:00:52 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg 15:00:55 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aaee 15:00:57 <gavin> zakim, I am +1.707.861.aadd 15:00:57 <Zakim> +gavin; got it 15:01:39 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdf-wg 15:01:57 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is me 15:02:10 <gavin> zakim, mute me 15:02:24 <sandro> zakim, who is here? 15:02:31 <cygri> no zakim 15:02:33 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg 15:02:37 <cygri> oh hi zakim 15:02:39 <gavin> zakim, mute me 15:02:41 <JFB> zakim, mute me 15:02:43 <Zakim> sorry, gavin, I don't know what conference this is 15:02:44 <sandro> zakim, who is here? 15:02:47 <cygri> zakim, who is here? 15:02:47 <sandro> zakim, this is rif-wg 15:02:49 <Zakim> sorry, JFB, I don't know what conference this is 15:02:51 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I don't know what conference this is 15:02:58 <gavin> zakim, this is rdf-wg 15:02:59 <Zakim> sorry, cygri, I don't know what conference this is 15:02:59 <sandro> zakim, this is rdf-wg 15:03:03 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I do not see a conference named 'rif-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time 15:03:05 <mbrunati> thanks 15:03:06 <tomayac> tomayac has joined #rdf-wg 15:03:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see cygri, FabGandon, AlexHall, gavin, AndyS, pfps, JFB, RRSAgent, AxelPolleres, mbrunati, LeeF_, LeeF, hsbauer, webr3, mischat, danbri, ivan, yvesr, davidwood, NickH, 15:03:09 <LeeF> sandro, it's already setup 15:03:14 <Zakim> ... manu1, manu, sandro, trackbot 15:03:14 <LeeF> it's "rdfwg" 15:03:18 <Zakim> sorry, gavin, I do not see a conference named 'rdf-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time 15:03:20 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I do not see a conference named 'rdf-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time 15:03:21 <sandro> LeeF, it was not.... 15:03:26 <sandro> zakim, this is rdfwg 15:03:30 <LeeF> yes it was :) 15:03:38 <Zakim> ok, sandro; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM 15:03:43 <sandro> Lee, then explain "--> Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169) has joined #rdf-wg" 15:03:57 <mbrunati> who is talking? 15:04:00 <sandro> Zakim, who is here? 15:04:02 <LeeF> ah well, i'd have to first explain "[11:01] * Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169) Quit (Client exited)" i guess :) 15:04:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, mbrunati, JFB, Peter_Patel-Schneider, LeeF, OlivierCorby, Sandro, AndyS, AxelPolleres, Tony, manu, gavin, +1.443.212.aaee, +3539149aaaa, +31.20.598.aaaa, 15:04:08 <mbrunati> zakim, who is talking? 15:04:09 <sandro> LeeF, ahhhhhh 15:04:13 <gavin> Oh dear 15:04:19 <mbrunati> zakim goes down 15:04:28 <mbrunati> twice 15:04:47 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-wg 15:04:55 <AndyS> and trackbot? 15:05:40 <gavin> trackbot does seem to be here 15:05:40 <tomayac> zakim, mute me 15:05:42 <mbrunati> zakim, who is talking? 15:05:46 <Zakim> sorry, tomayac, I don't know what conference this is 15:05:48 <Zakim> sorry, mbrunati, I don't know what conference this is 15:05:52 <gavin> zakim, this is rdfwg 15:06:00 <Zakim> ok, gavin; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM 15:06:21 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer 15:06:21 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-rdf-wg-irc#T15-06-21 15:06:30 <gavin> zakim, mute me 15:06:41 <Zakim> gavin should now be muted 15:06:51 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone? 15:06:52 <NickH> Zakim, ??P42 is me 15:06:53 <mbrunati> Topic: Admin 15:06:53 <davidwood> Minutes from last week: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-09 15:06:53 <mbrunati> minutes last week 15:06:55 <pfps> minutes look fine to me 15:06:56 <davidwood> Propose to accept 15:07:00 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: RDF WG Meeting 2011-03-16 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.16 15:07:01 <mbrunati> mbrunati: +1 15:07:03 <tomayac> +1 15:07:07 <mbrunati> RESOLVED: accept last week's minutes 15:07:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, mbrunati, JFB, LeeF, OlivierCorby, Sandro, AndyS, AxelPolleres, Tony, manu, gavin (muted), +1.443.212.aaee, +3539149aaaa, +31.20.598.aaaa, David_Wood, 15:07:15 <Zakim> ... [Sophia], +1.404.978.aaaa, ??P42 (muted) 15:07:17 <Zakim> +NickH; got it 15:07:18 <mbrunati> ivan: dst time and one hour before for the Europeans 15:07:37 <NickH> stupid americans ;-) 15:07:49 <davidwood> Topic: Action item review: 15:07:49 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open 15:07:53 <AlexHall> zakim, 01+1.443.212.aaee is me 15:08:03 <Zakim> sorry, AlexHall, I do not recognize a party named '01+1.443.212.aaee' 15:08:15 <gavin> zakim, unmute me 15:08:18 <FabGandon> zakim, [Sophia] is me 15:08:19 <Zakim> gavin should no longer be muted 15:08:22 <pfps> ACTION-17 appears to be done 15:08:22 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 17 15:08:23 <Zakim> +FabGandon; got it 15:08:38 <davidwood> ACTION-17: Gavin's response at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/GraphConceptTerminology 15:08:38 <trackbot> ACTION-17 Try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation notes added 15:08:57 <cygri> gavin, very nice diagram! 15:09:04 <AlexHall> zakim, 212.aaee is me 15:09:04 <Zakim> sorry, AlexHall, I do not recognize a party named '212.aaee' 15:09:09 <mbrunati> david: gavin has made the diagram on GRAPH 15:09:27 <sandro> zakim, list attendees 15:09:28 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been yvesr, mbrunati, JFB, LeeF, OlivierCorby, Sandro, AndyS, AxelPolleres, Tony, manu, gavin, +1.443.212.aaee, +3539149aaaa, +31.20.598.aaaa, 15:09:30 <Zakim> ... David_Wood, +1.404.978.aaaa, NickH, FabGandon 15:09:35 <AndyS> gavin, "me:" and ":me" are the same? 15:10:00 <mbrunati> Topic: Action Items 15:10:01 <mbrunati> ... there are some action-items for the next week in general 15:10:02 <mbrunati> action-4 and action6 are overdue 15:10:00 <gavin> Andy, yes... thanks. Will fix :D 15:10:19 <Zakim> -yvesr 15:10:41 <davidwood> Topic: F2F1 15:10:41 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1 15:10:49 <mbrunati> one more week with an hour earlier for the Europeans 15:11:08 <Zakim> +??P4 15:11:10 <mbrunati> david: talking about F2FI 15:11:16 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P4 is yvesr 15:11:16 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it 15:11:27 <sandro> q+ to ask about hotels 15:11:48 <gavin> zakim, mute me 15:11:48 <Zakim> gavin should now be muted 15:11:55 <mbrunati> ... please express the intent to make presence explicit on the f2f on the wiki 15:13:13 <davidwood> q? 15:13:17 <davidwood> ack sandro 15:13:17 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask about hotels 15:13:28 <NickH> sandro: yvesr and I are staying at Mercure Hotel Amsterdam Aan de Amstel 15:13:29 <yvesr> we're staying at the Mercure hotel 15:13:35 <yvesr> (near Amstel station) 15:13:51 <NickH> I believe SteveH and mischat are too 15:13:55 <mbrunati> sandro: on hotels on the f2f at the Mercure hotel 15:14:48 <mbrunati> topic: GRAPH TF, a proposal 15:14:50 <davidwood> Graph task force: Richard's proposal: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/RDF-Datasets-Proposal 15:15:27 <mbrunati> David: a proposal to make something concrete to work on 15:15:56 <yvesr> Zakim, mute me 15:15:56 <Zakim> yvesr should now be muted 15:16:13 <mbrunati> how to address better the use cases, take the concept of RDF core, SPARQL 15:16:24 <cmatheus> cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg 15:16:50 <mbrunati> RDF dataset identify in SPARQL are basically syntactic 15:17:22 <mbrunati> they are based on something already defined 15:17:49 <mbrunati> the discussion on the ML is on two points 15:18:13 <gavin> In addition to the named graphs and default graph mentioned by Richard many SPARQL implementations support a Union graph as well. 15:18:57 <manu> q+ to discuss data-deduplication in RDF as it relates to bnodes. 15:19:08 <mbrunati> semantics and SPARQL: is it complete or not? 15:19:11 <davidwood> q? 15:19:50 <sandro> q+ 15:19:53 <Zakim> +??P49 15:19:55 <mbrunati> what the relations between graph, bnodes, what identify graph, g-snaps or snapshot and so on 15:20:06 <sandro> zakim, who is talking? 15:20:06 <AxelPolleres> well, SPARQL will say *something* about semantics in its Entailment Regimes document, but there will not be interdependencies between graphs in Datasets in SPARQL Entailment regimes. 15:20:07 <Zakim> -??P49 15:20:09 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aabb 15:20:16 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (24%), +3539149aaaa (24%), David_Wood (29%), ??P51 (20%) 15:20:29 <Zakim> +??P49 15:21:08 <AndyS> Axel, isn't entailment is only for graphs? 15:21:14 <mbrunati> another point is maybe this proposal is something that is complete or not? 15:21:14 <davidwood> ack Manu 15:21:14 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to discuss data-deduplication in RDF as it relates to bnodes. 15:21:28 <mbrunati> manu: 15:22:06 <mbrunati> what are the proper directions on using bnodes in this context? g-snaps 15:22:29 <gavin> +q to mention Union graph and it's usefulness 15:23:00 <mbrunati> thinking on hard drives, the core OS thinking on files on different ways, and bnodes 15:23:14 <mbrunati> we can think on them on the same way 15:24:07 <davidwood> ack Sandro 15:24:08 <mbrunati> bnode as a file container maybe... we really need bnodes as a cross g-snaps 15:24:26 <AndyS> q+ to talk about graph/subgraph 15:24:30 <mbrunati> zakim, who is talking? 15:24:40 <Zakim> mbrunati, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (14%), David_Wood (65%) 15:24:56 <mbrunati> bnodes are probably a problem for SPARQL users 15:25:05 <sandro> davidwood: The problem I see with bnodes is when they are returned from a query and people want to follow-up. 15:25:42 <davidwood> q? 15:25:49 <gavin> Nope. 15:25:55 <davidwood> ack AndyS 15:25:55 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to talk about graph/subgraph 15:26:00 <mbrunati> andy: 15:26:25 <sandro> AndyS: sometimes you know one graph is a strict mathematical subgraph, eg a inference view of the data and the base data, then you know it's the same bnode. 15:26:26 <manu> Manu: Looking at this from a data de-duplication perspective, perhaps bnodes could be viewed as only being an implementation concern? 15:26:47 <mbrunati> richard: 15:27:04 <sandro> +1 test cases on bnodes 15:27:12 <sandro> +1 test cases on bnode sharing 15:27:19 <yvesr> +1 15:27:19 <manu> Manu: That is, you can share the bnode data across multiple instances in a copy-on-write way... that would allow us to say that bnodes are only valid inside a particular g-snap (it would make our decision easier) 15:27:42 <davidwood> q? 15:28:11 <mbrunati> sandro: 15:28:12 <manu> Manu: So, one could expect thousands of bnodes that are exactly the same between multiple g-snaps... but that storage space could be compressed using bnode de-duplication on disk. 15:28:31 <davidwood> g-handle? :P 15:28:42 <gavin> zakim, unmute me 15:28:42 <Zakim> gavin was not muted, gavin 15:28:49 <mbrunati> people use graphs and not are talking about graphs... 15:29:08 <manu> Manu: However, there are other concerns as David and Andy mention about queries on bnodes. 15:29:14 <mbrunati> what's the relation between URIS and g-snaps 15:29:21 <AndyS> SPARQL's "named graph" is the pair without meaning of the relationship -- maybe we need a "best practices" for using that 15:29:26 <gavin> +1 sandro 15:29:28 <mbrunati> URIs as g-boxes 15:29:43 <manu> +1 to sandro's terminology 15:29:56 <FabGandon> +1 for URIs identifying g-boxes 15:30:05 <manu> Graph Box -> Graph Snapshot -> Graph Representation 15:30:17 <cygri> q+ 15:30:18 <manu> Graph Resource -> Graph Snapshot -> Graph Representation ? 15:30:18 <AndyS> +1 to g-snap of a g-box (the IRI) at some point in time 15:30:24 <mbrunati> we need to determine more terminology 15:30:28 <mbrunati> gavin: 15:30:41 <gavin> http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-http-rdf-update/ 15:31:02 <manu> Maps nicely to Resource -> Snapshot -> Representation - perhaps we should add this to TAG/WEBARCH people? 15:31:04 <mbrunati> on the rdf update on the SPARQL WG 15:31:27 <mbrunati> what is the mapping? in turtle 15:31:44 <AndyS> New name of that doc is "SPARQL 1.1 RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol" 15:32:08 <mbrunati> gavin: other thing in the document, SPARQL mentions union graph 15:32:18 <davidwood> q? 15:32:22 <davidwood> ack gavin 15:32:22 <Zakim> gavin, you wanted to mention Union graph and it's usefulness 15:32:40 <davidwood> ack cygri 15:32:44 <mbrunati> what graph are coming from, what is dataset notion in this context 15:32:48 <mbrunati> richard: 15:33:18 <danbri_> danbri_ has joined #rdf-wg 15:33:20 <manu> +1 sharing blank nodes between two g-snaps matters with union graphs. 15:33:22 <mbrunati> union graph, URIs are g-boxes 15:34:13 <mbrunati> if we want to store some metadata about the graph, 15:34:37 <mbrunati> we have to identify a sort of snapshot of that graph 15:34:42 <danbri_> [could someone ask Guus if he could let me into his office?] 15:35:08 <manu> q+ to ask Guus to let Dan into his office 15:35:11 <mbrunati> with or without some trasformation on it? 15:35:18 <gavin> zakim, mute me 15:35:18 <Zakim> gavin should now be muted 15:35:32 <davidwood> q? 15:36:14 <manu> q- 15:36:26 <mbrunati> richard: 15:36:39 <sandro> sandro: Excellent example, fetching http://www.w3.org and putting the metadata into a dataset, you'd have to do a (reversable) syntactic transformation, eg into http://myserve.example.com/fetched=http://www.w3.org 15:36:41 <mbrunati> how to understand how to move forward on it? 15:37:17 <mbrunati> sandro has pointed out more attention on terminology 15:37:21 <cygri> propose that a g-sandro is a (URI, g-snap) pair 15:37:23 <gavin> Yeah, but SPARQL already uses it? 15:37:29 <yvesr> cygri: :) 15:37:34 <gavin> FROM NAMED 15:38:00 <mbrunati> what are graphs, definitions, better named graph definitions maybe, some confusion on defs 15:38:10 <sandro> a "name g-box pair" ? 15:38:38 <AndyS> q+ 15:38:46 <mbrunati> URI, IRIs graph, we have to more focus on named graph on SPARQL 15:39:13 <mbrunati> how to get out metadata about and out of this graph? 15:39:14 <davidwood> ack AndyS 15:39:17 <mbrunati> andys: 15:39:54 <mbrunati> URI as id for the graph or maybe 15:41:20 <mbrunati> much meaning in a word, in a graph, in a name, few weeks to make clearer it 15:41:45 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg 15:41:49 <mbrunati> zakim, who is talking? 15:42:00 <Zakim> mbrunati, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Peter_Patel-Schneider (30%), Sandro (5%), David_Wood (19%) 15:43:15 <mbrunati> richard wants to make a more practical nextstep on it 15:43:24 <mbrunati> more work on the ML 15:43:28 <davidwood> q? 15:43:51 <sandro> sandro: It would be great to get the wording around "named graph" made somehow clearer in SPARQL drafts before LC, or at least before PR. 15:43:54 <mbrunati> topic: Turtle TF 15:43:55 <mbrunati> david: now Turtle 15:44:01 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Turtle/Proposals 15:44:07 <mbrunati> nathan: 15:44:22 <sandro> s/nathan:/richard: 15:44:29 <AndyS> was Richard again (+1 for all the effort) 15:44:34 <mbrunati> thanks 15:44:40 <davidwood> Yes, +1 to Richard 15:44:53 <SteveH> SteveH has joined #rdf-wg 15:45:19 <mbrunati> name graph, more work, some proposal are out of scope 15:46:26 <mbrunati> more usable, more use cases, many different languages, special characters 15:47:14 <mbrunati> some proposals on graph TF 15:47:18 <gavin> +1 as it's also great for building parsers ;) 15:47:18 <mbrunati> david: 15:47:49 <AndyS> Can we not start with the n-triples text in RDF test cases? 15:48:15 <mbrunati> a comment on Twitter that strongly not Turtle in RDF rec 15:49:10 <mbrunati> we have to understand what is out of scope on the f2f 15:49:49 <mbrunati> it's important to make ideas freely in this WG, even if someone upset and so on 15:49:50 <manu> I don't think that we need the "!" syntax in TURTLE, either... our company has never had a need for it. 15:50:12 <gavin> At least for Turtle task force it doesn't look like very many people are going be at the F2F :( 15:50:37 <mbrunati> f2f on the JSON proposals, it's important to move on also 15:50:59 <manu> +1 to get the preliminary JSON document sorted by the end of 1st F2F 15:51:22 <mbrunati> david: what the timeline of closing out the opened issues? 15:51:53 <mbrunati> we not have an opened issue on named graph 15:52:01 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aacc 15:52:12 <sandro> issue: What is a named graph and what should we call it? 15:52:12 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-14 - What is a named graph and what should we call it? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/14/edit . 15:52:58 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-wg 15:53:17 <mbrunati> david: are there other opened issues on this telecon? 15:53:25 <sandro> issue: what is the relationship between the IRI and the triples in a dataset/quad-syntax/etc 15:53:25 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-15 - What is the relationship between the IRI and the triples in a dataset/quad-syntax/etc ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/15/edit . 15:54:29 <gavin> other people have been having trouble 15:54:30 <mbrunati> david: how to understand better what kind of documents we supposed are working on? 15:54:41 <gavin> zakim, mute me 15:54:41 <Zakim> gavin should now be muted 15:54:48 <davidwood> q? 15:55:04 <mbrunati> we have to use Turtle or not? 15:56:12 <mbrunati> maybe it is necessary to collect on wikis periodical revisions on materials discussed 15:56:23 <mbrunati> topic: JSON TF 15:56:33 <mbrunati> manu: 15:56:35 <manu> syntax options for JSON: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_Syntax_Options 15:56:38 <tomayac> +1 for nathan's work! 15:56:51 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#RDF_in_JSON_Use_Cases 15:56:58 <davidwood> Kudos to the JSON TF for the longest wiki page :) 15:57:00 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#RDF_in_JSON_Design_Requirements 15:57:04 <mbrunati> collected some info on JSON syntax options, use cases, design requirements 15:57:10 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_Syntax_Options 15:57:13 <mbrunati> +1 for nathan's work 15:57:40 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_Syntax_Options#Syntax_Structure 15:57:46 <mbrunati> the primary decision is 15:58:07 <mbrunati> JSON based on triples or objects model 15:58:19 <mbrunati> or document approach 15:58:30 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby 15:58:52 <mbrunati> to move forward we have to make some decision, but it's not clear how 15:59:11 <mbrunati> maybe we have missed out some information on these proposals 15:59:20 <LeeF> q+ to ask if we're putting the cart before the horse 15:59:29 <Zakim> + +33.4.92.38.aadd 15:59:58 <davidwood> ack LeeF 15:59:58 <Zakim> LeeF, you wanted to ask if we're putting the cart before the horse 16:00:19 <tomayac> q+ 16:00:39 <cygri> q+ 16:00:45 <mbrunati> leef: probably we need to know what problems we try to solve 16:00:45 <AndyS> +1 to LeeF 16:01:02 <manu> the object-based vs. triple-based decision hints at the problem we're trying to solve. 16:01:13 <cygri> +1 to LeeF 16:01:16 <mbrunati> +1 manu 16:01:25 <sandro> sandro: "make existing JSON map to RDF model" -- "make RDF easy for JSON users" -- "make json serialization of RDF" 16:01:26 <yvesr> indeed - the answer will depend on whether we wanta full rdf serialisation or not 16:01:34 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#A_primary_goal_SHOULD_be_to_build_a_human-friendly_version_of_the_serialization_for_JSON_developers 16:01:49 <sandro> (actually, some of that was Lee) 16:01:52 <davidwood> ack tomayac 16:02:00 <mbrunati> tomayac: 16:02:08 <AndyS> +1 to conflates issue with implementation 16:02:13 <yvesr> +1 16:02:17 <sandro> +1 at-a-glance serializations. 16:02:22 <NickH> +1 16:02:44 <mbrunati> maybe we not need a complete serialization on json 16:03:11 <mbrunati> zakim, who is talking? 16:03:21 <Zakim> mbrunati, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (19%), David_Wood (24%), +1.404.978.aaaa (19%) 16:03:23 <davidwood> q? 16:04:04 <mbrunati> not now 16:04:15 <mbrunati> thanks 16:04:19 <davidwood> ack cygri 16:04:58 <sandro> ACTION tomayac to create and start to populate a wiki area of demo graphs with how they each look in each json proposal. 16:04:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-20 - Create and start to populate a wiki area of demo graphs with how they each look in each json proposal. [on Thomas Steiner - due 2011-03-23]. 16:05:08 <mbrunati> cygri: more documentation on use cases and so on... 16:05:19 <mbrunati> triple vs object approach 16:05:56 <mbrunati> the problem maybe is on the head of us, how to manage a triplestore from a javascript context 16:06:08 <yvesr> although SPARQL results in JSON is probably not in our scope 16:06:28 <sandro> cygri: some people find it important to, eg, access a triplestore without a (turtle) library. or, "i have an RDF graph and want to write it in json". or manu's thing I don't quite understand. 16:06:54 <manu> q+ to respond to Richard. 16:06:57 <sandro> cygri: is the motivation to add bits of annotaiton to existing json, so they can be parsed as RDF? 16:07:15 <sandro> cygri: or do you not need migration/annotation 16:07:15 <mbrunati> manage the existing json stuff or to generate RDF to JSON syntax 16:07:19 <davidwood> ack manu 16:07:19 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to respond to Richard. 16:07:22 <mbrunati> or something else? 16:07:26 <mbrunati> manu: 16:07:56 <cygri> q+ 16:08:09 <sandro> manu: (1) annotation pre-existing json, and (2) take data people are emitting today (eg twitter) and understand that as RDF, by adding a "default context" 16:08:49 <mbrunati> shall we make a json complete serialization of RDF? 16:09:00 <davidwood> ack cygri 16:09:07 <mbrunati> cygri: 16:09:40 <sandro> +1 manu --- don't worry about another rdf serializaion, but DO both make it easy for json developers, AND try to including existing json data via annotations 16:10:01 <AndyS> q+ to ask about the relationship to RDFa-WG RDF API (process Q) 16:10:05 <davidwood> Scribe: mbrunati 16:10:12 <davidwood> Chair: davidwood 16:11:28 <sandro> Zakim, list attendees 16:11:28 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been yvesr, mbrunati, JFB, LeeF, OlivierCorby, Sandro, AndyS, AxelPolleres, Tony, manu, gavin, +1.443.212.aaee, +3539149aaaa, +31.20.598.aaaa, 16:11:31 <Zakim> ... David_Wood, +1.404.978.aaaa, NickH, FabGandon, +1.603.897.aabb, +1.760.705.aacc, +33.4.92.38.aadd 16:11:44 <manu> q+ to propose a separate RDF in JSON call to work through these issues. 16:12:15 <mbrunati> the discussion is on how to manage graphs, and all RDF stuff on JSON context, 16:12:35 <sandro> cygri: This goal of trying to parse RDF out of existing json may be out of scope for this WG. 16:12:46 <davidwood> ack AndyS 16:12:46 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about the relationship to RDFa-WG RDF API (process Q) 16:12:59 <mbrunati> david: not enough time to complete the agenda on RDF Rec probably 16:13:25 <davidwood> ack manu 16:13:25 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to propose a separate RDF in JSON call to work through these issues. 16:13:26 <mbrunati> AndyS: relations between RDF - WG and RDFa 16:13:33 <tomayac> wondering whether the any-json-2-rdf-json wouldn't be a one-off mapping each single time. can there be a generalized approach? 16:14:34 <mbrunati> RDFa-WG and WG RDF API correct 16:15:00 <sandro> manu: The RDF WebApps WG will do RDFa API and RDF API. 16:15:10 <sandro> q+ 16:15:12 <mbrunati> manu: there is a strong relation between these WG, the point is how to accomplish it? 16:15:49 <sandro> +1 manu, make a doodle poll for a telecon time 16:15:59 <davidwood> Sandro, do you wish to respond to Manu or address setting up a call for JSON? 16:16:03 <mbrunati> manu: we need a separate call to make clear this misunderstanding probably 16:16:14 <davidwood> ack sandro 16:16:16 <mbrunati> sandro: 16:16:55 <mbrunati> it's not clear but it take months to manage resources on it 16:16:58 <mbrunati> david: 16:17:00 <manu> ACTION: Manu to create a doodle poll to find a time to have a call. 16:17:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-21 - Create a doodle poll to find a time to have a call. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-03-23]. 16:17:18 <mbrunati> probably time is finished at this time 16:17:19 <gavin> Regrets for the next meeting. And was the scribe. Jeremy will be here instead! 16:17:25 <mbrunati> thanks 16:17:26 <tomayac> bye 16:17:28 <Zakim> -manu 16:17:30 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres 16:17:30 <Zakim> - +33.4.92.38.aadd 16:17:34 <Zakim> - +3539149aaaa 16:17:35 <pchampin> bye 16:17:35 <Zakim> - +1.603.897.aabb 16:17:35 <Zakim> -Tony 16:17:36 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call? 16:17:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see mbrunati, JFB, LeeF, Sandro, AndyS, gavin, +1.443.212.aaee, +31.20.598.aaaa, David_Wood, FabGandon, +1.404.978.aaaa, NickH (muted), yvesr (muted), ??P49, 16:17:39 <Zakim> ... +1.760.705.aacc 16:17:39 <Zakim> - +1.443.212.aaee 16:17:43 <LeeF> cheers, everyone 16:17:43 <pchampin> pchampin has left #rdf-wg 16:17:47 <Zakim> - +1.760.705.aacc 16:17:48 <gavin> zakim, unmute me 16:17:49 <hsbauer> bye 16:17:49 <Zakim> gavin was not muted, gavin 16:17:52 <Zakim> -AndyS 16:17:52 <AlexHall> AlexHall has left #rdf-wg 16:17:57 <Zakim> -LeeF 16:18:08 <Zakim> -??P49 16:18:15 <Zakim> - +1.404.978.aaaa 16:18:24 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call? 16:18:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see mbrunati, JFB, Sandro, gavin, +31.20.598.aaaa, David_Wood, FabGandon, NickH (muted), yvesr (muted) 16:18:28 <Zakim> -NickH 16:18:42 <Zakim> -FabGandon 16:19:29 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call? 16:19:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see mbrunati, JFB, Sandro, gavin, +31.20.598.aaaa, David_Wood, yvesr (muted) 16:20:10 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has left #rdf-wg 16:20:23 <sandro> gavin: I can't scribe next week, but jeremy will 16:20:31 <Zakim> -gavin 16:22:23 <danbri_> posted draft FOAF use case for named graphs in http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/4 16:22:34 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call? 16:22:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see mbrunati, JFB, Sandro, +31.20.598.aaaa, David_Wood, yvesr (muted) 16:22:34 <danbri_> not sure exactly what was wanted so mostly historical, with sketch of requirements 16:22:54 <Zakim> -yvesr 16:22:59 <Zakim> -Sandro 16:23:00 <Zakim> -David_Wood 16:23:00 <Zakim> - +31.20.598.aaaa 16:23:02 <Zakim> -JFB 16:23:04 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended 16:23:05 <Zakim> Attendees were yvesr, mbrunati, JFB, LeeF, OlivierCorby, Sandro, AndyS, AxelPolleres, Tony, manu, gavin, +1.443.212.aaee, +3539149aaaa, +31.20.598.aaaa, David_Wood, 16:23:07 <Zakim> ... +1.404.978.aaaa, NickH, FabGandon, +1.603.897.aabb, +1.760.705.aacc, +33.4.92.38.aadd 16:25:36 <mbrunati> rrsagent, draft minutes 16:25:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-rdf-wg-minutes.html mbrunati # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000480