RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 05 September 2012

Seen
Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, Arnaud Le Hors, Charles Greer, Dan Brickley, David Wood, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gavin Carothers, Gregg Kellogg, Guus Schreiber, Ivan Herman, Lee Feigenbaum, Patrick Hayes, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Richard Cyganiak, Sandro Hawke, Scott Bauer, Souripriya Das, Steve Harris, Ted Thibodeau, Zhe Wu
Chair
David Wood
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions

None.

Topics
14:33:16 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:33:16 <trackbot> Date: 05 September 2012
14:33:24 <ivan> Chair: David Wood
15:02:06 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

15:02:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, AndyS, +1.707.318.aabb, Ivan (muted), davidwood, Arnaud, Tony, AZ, MacTed (muted), gkellogg, Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, AndyS, +1.707.318.aabb, Ivan (muted), davidwood, Arnaud, Tony, AZ, MacTed (muted), gkellogg, Souri

15:02:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, Arnaud, cgreer, gkellogg, AZ, AndyS, danbri, Guus, Zakim, RRSAgent, LeeF, AndyS_, MacTed, ivan, SteveH, manu1, davidwood, trackbot, sandro, manu, ericP, yvesr

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Souri, Arnaud, cgreer, gkellogg, AZ, AndyS, danbri, Guus, Zakim, RRSAgent, LeeF, AndyS_, MacTed, ivan, SteveH, manu1, davidwood, trackbot, sandro, manu, ericP, yvesr

15:05:07 <AndyS> Topic: minutes from last time

1. minutes from last time

15:05:21 <AndyS> david: ... 22 august

David Wood: ... 22 august [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:05:27 <danbri> (regrets from me; in Malaysia for Dublin Core conference)

Dan Brickley: (regrets from me; in Malaysia for Dublin Core conference)

15:05:39 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 22 Aug telecon:

David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 22 Aug telecon:

15:05:39 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-08-22

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-08-22

15:06:04 <AndyS> topic: action items

2. action items

15:06:07 <davidwood> Review of actions

David Wood: Review of actions

15:06:07 <davidwood> 	▪	http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview

David Wood: ▪ http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview

15:06:07 <davidwood> 	▪	http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open

David Wood: ▪ http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open

15:06:24 <AndyS> pat - action 178 pending

Andy Seaborne: pat - ACTION-178 pending

15:07:28 <AndyS> david: any open actions done or progressed?

David Wood: any open actions done or progressed? [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:07:55 <gavinc> That's check on bat phone, or video, or what is available I think?

Gavin Carothers: That's check on bat phone, or video, or what is available I think?

15:08:12 <AndyS> sandro: hardware for F2F - there is a polycom for the room

Sandro Hawke: hardware for F2F - there is a polycom for the room [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:08:13 <gavinc> yeah, I think it was check for a bat phone (polycom)

Gavin Carothers: yeah, I think it was check for a bat phone (polycom)

15:08:27 <AndyS> close action-182

Andy Seaborne: close ACTION-182

15:08:27 <trackbot> ACTION-182 Check on hardware for meeting. closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-182 Check on hardware for meeting. closed

15:09:56 <Guus> propose to insert agenda item on review Turtle LC comments

Guus Schreiber: propose to insert agenda item on review Turtle LC comments

15:10:03 <AndyS> EricP: action 162 ... close for now?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ACTION-162 ... close for now? [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:10:11 <AndyS> close action-162

Andy Seaborne: close ACTION-162

15:10:11 <trackbot> ACTION-162 Work with Tom Baker to add the FRBR use case to http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs closed

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-162 Work with Tom Baker to add the FRBR use case to http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs closed

15:10:32 <AndyS> (ericP to ping tom to let him know what's happened)

Andy Seaborne: (ericP to ping tom to let him know what's happened)

15:10:50 <AndyS> topic: admin

3. admin

15:11:11 <AndyS> david: we are not in summer any more - weekly TCs resume

David Wood: we are not in summer any more - weekly TCs resume [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:11:16 <AndyS> topic: F2F

4. F2F

15:11:51 <AndyS> david: power for the chairs, but not observers and the outer ring of people.  Issue if >15 people

David Wood: power for the chairs, but not observers and the outer ring of people. Issue if >15 people [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:12:02 <gavinc> (or is there literally not enough power?)

Gavin Carothers: (or is there literally not enough power?)

15:12:52 <AndyS> ... anyone on the wiki to attend needs to also register for TPAC

Andy Seaborne: ... anyone on the wiki to attend needs to also register for TPAC

15:13:34 <gavinc> there seem to be only 7 people signed up to go in person

Gavin Carothers: there seem to be only 7 people signed up to go in person

15:13:57 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aaii

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.650.265.aaii

15:14:16 <davidwood> Topic: RDF Graph Identification

5. RDF Graph Identification

15:14:16 <zwu2> zakim, +1.650.265.aaii is me

Zhe Wu: zakim, +1.650.265.aaii is me

15:14:16 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2; got it

15:15:07 <AndyS> david: no terminological discussion in the TCs for now ... use the mailing list.

David Wood: no terminological discussion in the TCs for now ... use the mailing list. [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:15:20 <Zakim> -ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP

15:15:36 <AndyS> ... new terms need to be framed as fitting on the diagram

Andy Seaborne: ... new terms need to be framed as fitting on the diagram

15:15:57 <AndyS> ... arrows fixed, words can vary

Andy Seaborne: ... arrows fixed, words can vary

15:16:02 <Zakim> +ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP

15:16:09 <AndyS> ... ok? (silence)

Andy Seaborne: ... ok? (silence)

15:16:27 <AndyS> ... 3 proposals

Andy Seaborne: ... 3 proposals

15:16:40 <AZ> yes, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/Minimal-dataset-semantics

Antoine Zimmermann: yes, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/Minimal-dataset-semantics

15:16:50 <AndyS> ... node ids , issue-21

Andy Seaborne: ... node ids , ISSUE-21

15:17:15 <AndyS> ... issue-1 extended to cover TriG (bNode labels)

Andy Seaborne: ... ISSUE-1 extended to cover TriG (bNode labels)

15:17:32 <davidwood> Proposal: Node-IDs be shared between graphs in a TriG document. (This addresses ISSUE-21: Can Node-IDs be shared between parts of a quad/multigraph format?)

PROPOSED: Node-IDs be shared between graphs in a TriG document. (This addresses ISSUE-21: Can Node-IDs be shared between parts of a quad/multigraph format?)

15:18:01 <gavinc> +1 if and only if RDF semantics is extended to allow this

Gavin Carothers: +1 if and only if RDF semantics is extended to allow this

15:18:01 <AZ> q+

Antoine Zimmermann: q+

15:18:08 <AndyS> ... mimimal semantics (Pierre-Antoine message of today)

Andy Seaborne: ... mimimal semantics (Pierre-Antoine message of today)

15:18:10 <davidwood> ack AZ

David Wood: ack AZ

15:18:50 <Zakim> + +3539149aakk

Zakim IRC Bot: + +3539149aakk

15:18:56 <cygri> zakim, aakk is me

Richard Cyganiak: zakim, aakk is me

15:18:56 <Zakim> +cygri; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri; got it

15:19:22 <AndyS> pchampin: what does it mean?

Pierre-Antoine Champin: what does it mean? [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:20:05 <gavinc> +q

Gavin Carothers: +q

15:20:07 <AndyS> ... bNodes do not denote ... so saying the bnodes denote the same resource is wrong

Andy Seaborne: ... bNodes do not denote ... so saying the bnodes denote the same resource is wrong

15:20:14 <SteveH> <a> { _:a a <Foo> } <b> { _:a a <Foo> } + SELECT DISTINT ?s WHERE { ?s ?p ?o } = one result

Steve Harris: <a> { _:a a <Foo> } <b> { _:a a <Foo> } + SELECT DISTINT ?s WHERE { ?s ?p ?o } = one result

15:20:22 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

15:20:29 <AndyS> david: relate to skolemization?

David Wood: relate to skolemization? [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:20:30 <SteveH> with default graph = union of named graphs...

Steve Harris: with default graph = union of named graphs...

15:20:36 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

15:20:47 <sandro> (no!)

Sandro Hawke: (no!)

15:21:07 <SteveH> -1 to having both behaviours

Steve Harris: -1 to having both behaviours

15:21:10 <Zakim> -ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP

15:21:23 <davidwood> ack gavinc

David Wood: ack gavinc

15:21:30 <gavinc> The formal semantics [RDF-MT] of RDF do not provide for the meaning of blank nodes between graphs. BlankNodes sharing the same label in different graph literals must not be considered to be the same BlankNode.

Gavin Carothers: The formal semantics [RDF-MT] of RDF do not provide for the meaning of blank nodes between graphs. BlankNodes sharing the same label in different graph literals must not be considered to be the same BlankNode.

15:21:35 <AndyS> pchampin: should be able to reuse the identifier to be different bNodes

Pierre-Antoine Champin: should be able to reuse the identifier to be different bNodes [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:21:40 <Zakim> +ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP

15:22:06 <AndyS> gavin: current spec says that same label is different bNode in different graphs

Gavin Carothers: current spec says that same label is different bNode in different graphs [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:22:20 <AndyS> ... to reverse need to say what it means

Andy Seaborne: ... to reverse need to say what it means

15:22:21 <ivan> +1 to gavin; this is a general dataset issue

Ivan Herman: +1 to gavin; this is a general dataset issue

15:22:24 <davidwood> ack sandro

David Wood: ack sandro

15:22:43 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

15:22:55 <AndyS> sandro: bNodes can be shared currently (current practice) e.g. subgraph

Sandro Hawke: bNodes can be shared currently (current practice) e.g. subgraph [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:23:00 <AZ> I agree with that, no problem

Antoine Zimmermann: I agree with that, no problem

15:23:02 <SteveH> also RDF Union defines it

Steve Harris: also RDF Union defines it

15:23:08 <AndyS> ... that is what we are trying to capture in TriG

Andy Seaborne: ... that is what we are trying to capture in TriG

15:23:48 <gavinc> This effectively treats all blank nodes as having the same meaning as existentially quantified variables in the RDF graph in which they occur, and which have the scope of the entire graph. In terms of the N-Triples syntax, this amounts to the convention that would place the quantifiers just outside, or at the outer edge of, the N-Triples document corresponding to the graph. This in turn means that there is a subtle but important distinction in meaning between the

Gavin Carothers: This effectively treats all blank nodes as having the same meaning as existentially quantified variables in the RDF graph in which they occur, and which have the scope of the entire graph. In terms of the N-Triples syntax, this amounts to the convention that would place the quantifiers just outside, or at the outer edge of, the N-Triples document corresponding to the graph. This in turn means that there is a subtle but important distinction in meaning between the

15:23:49 <gavinc> operation of forming the union of two graphs and that of forming the merge. The simple union of two graphs corresponds to the conjunction ( 'and' ) of all the triples in the graphs, maintaining the identity of any blank nodes which occur in both graphs. This is appropriate when the information in the graphs comes from a single source, or where one is derived from the other by means of some valid inference process, as for example when applying an inference rule to

Gavin Carothers: operation of forming the union of two graphs and that of forming the merge. The simple union of two graphs corresponds to the conjunction ( 'and' ) of all the triples in the graphs, maintaining the identity of any blank nodes which occur in both graphs. This is appropriate when the information in the graphs comes from a single source, or where one is derived from the other by means of some valid inference process, as for example when applying an inference rule to

15:23:51 <gavinc> add a triple to a graph. Merging two graphs treats the blank nodes in each graph as being existentially quantified in that graph, so that no blank node from one graph is allowed to stray into the scope of the other graph's surrounding quantifier. This is appropriate when the graphs come from different sources and there is no justification for assuming that a blank node in one refers to the same entity as any blank node in the other.

Gavin Carothers: add a triple to a graph. Merging two graphs treats the blank nodes in each graph as being existentially quantified in that graph, so that no blank node from one graph is allowed to stray into the scope of the other graph's surrounding quantifier. This is appropriate when the graphs come from different sources and there is no justification for assuming that a blank node in one refers to the same entity as any blank node in the other.

15:24:03 <AndyS> pchampin: when you transmit graphs, what you have is the file id for the bnode

Pierre-Antoine Champin: when you transmit graphs, what you have is the file id for the bnode [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:24:11 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

15:24:18 <AndyS> ... issue is the language of "denote"

Andy Seaborne: ... issue is the language of "denote"

15:24:50 <Souri> q+

Souripriya Das: q+

15:24:55 <davidwood> ack cygri

David Wood: ack cygri

15:25:08 <AndyS> sandro: the proposal is about making it the same node

Sandro Hawke: the proposal is about making it the same node [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:25:45 <AndyS> cygri: may be true about shared bNodes ... but all triple syntaxes can't say it.

Richard Cyganiak: may be true about shared bNodes ... but all triple syntaxes can't say it. [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:25:57 <sandro> PROPOSED: When you use the same blank node identifier (like _:x)  two different places in a TriG document, the identifier refers to the same blank node.

PROPOSED: When you use the same blank node identifier (like _:x) two different places in a TriG document, the identifier refers to the same blank node.

15:26:03 <AndyS> ... can't write it down ... can't express it.

Andy Seaborne: ... can't write it down ... can't express it.

15:26:33 <Arnaud> should we talk about g-text vs g-box/g-snap rather than graph here?

Arnaud Le Hors: should we talk about g-text vs g-box/g-snap rather than graph here?

15:26:40 <Zakim> -ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP

15:26:40 <AndyS> ... has not been a problem

Andy Seaborne: ... has not been a problem

15:26:51 <davidwood> I don't think we are going to prove or disprove the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis here...

David Wood: I don't think we are going to prove or disprove the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis here...

15:26:54 <Zakim> +ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP

15:27:10 <AndyS> (AndyS disagrees ... N-quad dumps)

Andy Seaborne: (AndyS disagrees ... N-quad dumps)

15:27:38 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

15:27:42 <davidwood> ack Souri

David Wood: ack Souri

15:27:42 <AndyS> cygri: how about making the scope as the graph only

Richard Cyganiak: how about making the scope as the graph only [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:27:46 <MacTed> q+

Ted Thibodeau: q+

15:27:53 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:27:53 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

15:27:55 <gkellogg> People have expressed blank nodes between graphs, just not using standardized formats. N-Quads, N3, and at least my implementation of TriG share BNode identifiers within the document to mean the same node..

Gregg Kellogg: People have expressed blank nodes between graphs, just not using standardized formats. N-Quads, N3, and at least my implementation of TriG share BNode identifiers within the document to mean the same node..

15:28:08 <gavinc> and yes you can write it down today (but not in a predictable way that is interrupted the same way by different SPARQL stores)

Gavin Carothers: and yes you can write it down today (but not in a predictable way that is interrupted the same way by different SPARQL stores)

15:28:27 <AndyS> (does any store interpret it as different bNodes?)

Andy Seaborne: (does any store interpret it as different bNodes?)

15:28:32 <cgreer> +1 to Andy.  N-Quad dumps don't have a syntactic graph boundary, so they need bnodes to be document-scoped

Charles Greer: +1 to Andy. N-Quad dumps don't have a syntactic graph boundary, so they need bnodes to be document-scoped

15:28:34 <gavinc> (Yes :( )

Gavin Carothers: (Yes :( )

15:28:41 <SteveH> AndyS, nothing in nquads says that _:a in different graphs is the same bNode, AFAIK

Steve Harris: AndyS, nothing in nquads says that _:a in different graphs is the same bNode, AFAIK

15:28:57 <AndyS> souri: issue about id across documents

Souripriya Das: issue about id across documents [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:28:59 <sandro> q+ to answer souri

Sandro Hawke: q+ to answer souri

15:29:20 <AndyS> steveH ... sure ... this is about current practice

Andy Seaborne: steveH ... sure ... this is about current practice

15:29:21 <sandro> Souri, that's a harder problem, and one we're not solving with this proposal.

Sandro Hawke: Souri, that's a harder problem, and one we're not solving with this proposal.

15:29:32 <davidwood> agreed

David Wood: agreed

15:29:37 <SteveH> AndyS, I think they're different in 4store, but I'd have to test

Steve Harris: AndyS, I think they're different in 4store, but I'd have to test

15:29:56 <gavinc> SteveH, I think they are too

Gavin Carothers: SteveH, I think they are too

15:30:10 <AndyS> souri: adding to a doc becomes difficult

Souripriya Das: adding to a doc becomes difficult [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:30:23 <davidwood> PROPOSED: When you use the same blank node identifier (like _:x)  two different places in a TriG document, the identifier refers to the same blank node.

PROPOSED: When you use the same blank node identifier (like _:x) two different places in a TriG document, the identifier refers to the same blank node.

15:30:26 <SteveH> Souri's issue is delt with better by bnode Skolemisation IMHO

Steve Harris: Souri's issue is delt with better by bnode Skolemisation IMHO

15:30:30 <Zakim> + +1.617.553.aall

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.617.553.aall

15:30:33 <gavinc> couldn't restore a TDB dump into 4store for that reason with blank nodes used for people :\

Gavin Carothers: couldn't restore a TDB dump into 4store for that reason with blank nodes used for people :\

15:30:36 <LeeF> zakim, aall is me

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, aall is me

15:30:36 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF; got it

15:30:59 <Souri> q+

Souripriya Das: q+

15:31:11 <SteveH> gavinc, yeah, you have to turn on auto-skolemisation, then it will Just Work™

Steve Harris: gavinc, yeah, you have to turn on auto-skolemisation, then it will Just Work™

15:31:19 <AndyS> david: scope of discussion is one trig doc ... not across multiple docs or loads

David Wood: scope of discussion is one trig doc ... not across multiple docs or loads [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:31:20 <davidwood> ack MacTed

David Wood: ack MacTed

15:31:33 <zwu2> one can always skolemize

Zhe Wu: one can always skolemize

15:31:46 <AndyS> MacTed: scope is container

Ted Thibodeau: scope is container [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:31:56 <AndyS> ... the container is a trig doc

Andy Seaborne: ... the container is a trig doc

15:32:00 <Zakim> -ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP

15:32:22 <Zakim> +ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP

15:32:25 <gkellogg> +1 to what MacTed said

Gregg Kellogg: +1 to what MacTed said

15:32:28 <SteveH> that assumes the doc has a single author

Steve Harris: that assumes the doc has a single author

15:32:32 <AndyS> ... app/person writing file has the responsibility

Andy Seaborne: ... app/person writing file has the responsibility

15:32:37 <LeeF> FYI, I just asked what our current setup does, and it treats the same blank node ID in different graphs in a single trig parser as the same blank node

Lee Feigenbaum: FYI, I just asked what our current setup does, and it treats the same blank node ID in different graphs in a single trig parser as the same blank node

15:32:52 <LeeF> (I don't believe we ever rely on this, however)

Lee Feigenbaum: (I don't believe we ever rely on this, however)

15:32:54 <AndyS> ... and the loading changes the bnodes

Andy Seaborne: ... and the loading changes the bnodes

15:33:21 <davidwood> ack sandro

David Wood: ack sandro

15:33:21 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to answer souri

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to answer souri

15:33:29 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:33:29 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:33:33 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

15:33:42 <AndyS> this is the same currently within one graph and multiple authors.

Andy Seaborne: this is the same currently within one graph and multiple authors.

15:33:51 <AndyS> ack souri

Andy Seaborne: ack souri

15:33:53 <ericP> here's the query i expect to work in SPARQL (which I believe already works in most SPARQL endpoints):

Eric Prud'hommeaux: here's the query i expect to work in SPARQL (which I believe already works in most SPARQL endpoints):

15:33:54 <SteveH> yes

Steve Harris: yes

15:33:56 <ericP> data -- GRAPH <g1> { _:s1 <p1> "o1" } GRAPH <g2> { _:s1 <p2> "o2" }

Eric Prud'hommeaux: data -- GRAPH <g1> { _:s1 <p1> "o1" } GRAPH <g2> { _:s1 <p2> "o2" }

15:33:58 <ericP> query -- SELECT ?s { GRAPH <g1> { ?s <p1> "o1" } GRAPH <g2> { ?s <p2> "o2" } }

Eric Prud'hommeaux: query -- SELECT ?s { GRAPH <g1> { ?s <p1> "o1" } GRAPH <g2> { ?s <p2> "o2" } }

15:34:01 <ericP> results -- { (?s -> _:asdf1) }

Eric Prud'hommeaux: results -- { (?s -> _:asdf1) }

15:34:02 <SteveH> but it's not as trivial as MacTed makes it sound

Steve Harris: but it's not as trivial as MacTed makes it sound

15:34:49 <AndyS> sandro: can just use bNode labels - not needing to go via skolemization

Sandro Hawke: can just use bNode labels - not needing to go via skolemization [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:35:07 <LeeF> ericP, in Anzo, today, that would work as you say

Lee Feigenbaum: ericP, in Anzo, today, that would work as you say

15:35:17 <AndyS> ... one parser run only ... not across two parse runs (even of same doc)

Andy Seaborne: ... one parser run only ... not across two parse runs (even of same doc)

15:35:51 <SteveH> ericP, what about INSERT DATA GRAPH <g1> { _:s1 <p1> "o1" } ; INSERT DATA GRAPH <g2> { _:s1 <p2> "o2" }   ?

Steve Harris: ericP, what about INSERT DATA GRAPH <g1> { _:s1 <p1> "o1" } ; INSERT DATA GRAPH <g2> { _:s1 <p2> "o2" } ?

15:35:52 <AndyS> souri: (checks on understanding whether this is long term persistence)

Souripriya Das: (checks on understanding whether this is long term persistence) [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:36:02 <AndyS> souri: (checks on understanding whether this is long term persistence of bnode ids)

Souripriya Das: (checks on understanding whether this is long term persistence of bnode ids) [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:36:10 <AndyS> sandro: no

Sandro Hawke: no [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:36:27 <davidwood> PROPOSED: When you use the same blank node identifier (like _:x)  two different places in a TriG document, the identifier refers to the same blank node.  This closes ISSUE-21.

PROPOSED: When you use the same blank node identifier (like _:x) two different places in a TriG document, the identifier refers to the same blank node. This closes ISSUE-21.

15:36:36 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

15:36:38 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1

15:36:40 <LeeF> +1

Lee Feigenbaum: +1

15:36:40 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

15:36:40 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

15:36:41 <AndyS> steveH -- that is the same

Andy Seaborne: steveH -- that is the same

15:36:42 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

15:36:42 <cgreer> +1

Charles Greer: +1

15:36:47 <cygri> -1

Richard Cyganiak: -1

15:36:49 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

15:36:49 <AndyS> +1

Andy Seaborne: +1

15:36:51 <ivan> 0

Ivan Herman: 0

15:36:51 <AZ> +0.5 I think

Antoine Zimmermann: +0.5 I think

15:36:55 <Souri> -0.5

Souripriya Das: -0.5

15:37:01 <ivan> -0 actually

Ivan Herman: -0 actually

15:37:02 <gavinc> +0

Gavin Carothers: +0

15:37:05 <zwu2> -0.1

Zhe Wu: -0.1

15:37:30 <Zakim> -ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP

15:37:37 <AndyS> cygri: objection: it makes it more complicated and no use case

Richard Cyganiak: objection: it makes it more complicated and no use case [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:37:44 <Zakim> +ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP

15:37:51 <AndyS> ... have seen that it can occur in SPARQL

Andy Seaborne: ... have seen that it can occur in SPARQL

15:37:53 <davidwood> LeeF, can you please speak to your use case?

David Wood: LeeF, can you please speak to your use case?

15:38:02 <AndyS> q+ to ask about subgraph UC

Andy Seaborne: q+ to ask about subgraph UC

15:38:29 <ericP> SteveH, re: INSERT, yes, I think we're on the same page for what that produces

Eric Prud'hommeaux: SteveH, re: INSERT, yes, I think we're on the same page for what that produces

15:38:35 <AZ> q+

Antoine Zimmermann: q+

15:38:43 <AndyS> ... application use case is what?

Andy Seaborne: ... application use case is what?

15:38:44 <SteveH> FWIW, I think that Skolemisation is a much better solution to the serialisation problem, but it seems that I'm the only one :)

Steve Harris: FWIW, I think that Skolemisation is a much better solution to the serialisation problem, but it seems that I'm the only one :)

15:39:20 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs#Separation_of_Inference

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs#Separation_of_Inference

15:39:30 <davidwood> ack AndyS

David Wood: ack AndyS

15:39:30 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about subgraph UC

Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask about subgraph UC

15:39:32 <AndyS> Leef: this (bnodes across graphs) is what anzo does

Lee Feigenbaum: this (bnodes across graphs) is what anzo does [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:39:41 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

15:40:08 <AZ> AndyS: we have a used case for subgraphs

Andy Seaborne: we have a used case for subgraphs [ Scribe Assist by Antoine Zimmermann ]

15:40:29 <AZ> cygri: but I'd like a real application scenario

Richard Cyganiak: but I'd like a real application scenario [ Scribe Assist by Antoine Zimmermann ]

15:40:44 <SteveH> ericP, in my system INSERT … ; INSERT is two parser runs IIRC

Steve Harris: ericP, in my system INSERT … ; INSERT is two parser runs IIRC

15:41:35 <AZ> sandro: you want to keep separated inferences for instance

Sandro Hawke: you want to keep separated inferences for instance [ Scribe Assist by Antoine Zimmermann ]

15:41:42 <AZ> cygri: who's doing that?

Richard Cyganiak: who's doing that? [ Scribe Assist by Antoine Zimmermann ]

15:41:47 <SteveH> backing up a SPARQL dataset is a valid usecase

Steve Harris: backing up a SPARQL dataset is a valid usecase

15:41:54 <SteveH> people do that all the time

Steve Harris: people do that all the time

15:43:22 <AndyS> cygri: can't do it by loading files off the web

Richard Cyganiak: can't do it by loading files off the web [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:43:38 <AndyS> ... who does this in practice?

Andy Seaborne: ... who does this in practice?

15:44:22 <AZ> q-

Antoine Zimmermann: q-

15:44:27 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:44:27 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

15:44:38 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

15:44:45 <davidwood> ack sandro

David Wood: ack sandro

15:45:00 <AndyS> davidwood: high bar to have such an example of must have this feature

David Wood: high bar to have such an example of must have this feature [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:45:09 <AndyS> sandro: prov WG ?

Sandro Hawke: prov WG ? [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:45:39 <SteveH> q+

Steve Harris: q+

15:45:47 <AndyS> cygri: it's simpler not to share

Richard Cyganiak: it's simpler not to share [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:45:59 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

15:46:18 <davidwood> ack SteveH

David Wood: ack SteveH

15:46:30 <AndyS> You can dump the store in INSERT DATA format

Andy Seaborne: You can dump the store in INSERT DATA format

15:47:09 <sandro> steve: the backing up of a sparql data store is a reasonable use case here.

Steve Harris: the backing up of a sparql data store is a reasonable use case here. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:47:44 <sandro> cygri:  (1) sharing blank nodes between graphs, or (2) not sharing them.   What breaks if we go with #2.

Richard Cyganiak: (1) sharing blank nodes between graphs, or (2) not sharing them. What breaks if we go with #2. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:48:02 <gavinc> something that breaks: The ability serialize an inference graph separately from an asserted graph

Gavin Carothers: something that breaks: The ability serialize an inference graph separately from an asserted graph

15:48:12 <davidwood> ack AndyS

David Wood: ack AndyS

15:48:16 <sandro> AndyS: user applications would break

Andy Seaborne: user applications would break [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:48:18 <zwu2> Oracle is doing 2

Zhe Wu: Oracle is doing 2

15:48:38 <SteveH> so does 4store

Steve Harris: so does 4store

15:48:40 <davidwood> zwu2, can you speak to Oracle's use case?

David Wood: zwu2, can you speak to Oracle's use case?

15:48:43 <AndyS> cygri: what breaks if we adopt the unshared design?

Richard Cyganiak: what breaks if we adopt the unshared design? [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:48:54 <sandro> AndyS:  It's not fair to compare having different bars for the two different cases.

Andy Seaborne: It's not fair to compare having different bars for the two different cases. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:49:10 <Zakim> -ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP

15:49:24 <Zakim> +ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP

15:49:35 <AndyS> AndyS: user applications using Jena and other APIs do - eric and others have noted it already happens

Andy Seaborne: user applications using Jena and other APIs do - eric and others have noted it already happens [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:50:08 <AndyS> sandro: most choices with option 1

Sandro Hawke: most choices with option 1 [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:50:11 <ericP> options 2 forces a lot of design decisions

Eric Prud'hommeaux: options 2 forces a lot of design decisions

15:50:13 <cygri> davidwood, skolem uris

Richard Cyganiak: davidwood, skolem uris

15:50:13 <SteveH> sandro, users have the same choices both ways

Steve Harris: sandro, users have the same choices both ways

15:50:27 <SteveH> it's about ease / danger

Steve Harris: it's about ease / danger

15:50:40 <SteveH> too much rope maybe

Steve Harris: too much rope maybe

15:50:40 <ericP> anything i want to be able to connect between different graphs, i need to promise to honor a persistent identifier

Eric Prud'hommeaux: anything i want to be able to connect between different graphs, i need to promise to honor a persistent identifier

15:50:51 <AndyS> I agree with sandro - it's it banned, it can't be done so enforced not sharing is less choice

Andy Seaborne: I agree with sandro - it's it banned, it can't be done so enforced not sharing is less choice

15:51:48 <gavinc> Inside a SPARQL database you can do it already

Gavin Carothers: Inside a SPARQL database you can do it already

15:51:56 <AndyS> david: clarification: This is solely with one trig doc (and only one parser run on that doc)

David Wood: clarification: This is solely with one trig doc (and only one parser run on that doc) [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

15:52:14 <ericP> i think we're also talking about the RDF model here 'cause what else will i parse the Trig doc into?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i think we're also talking about the RDF model here 'cause what else will i parse the Trig doc into?

15:52:22 <ericP> q?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q?

15:52:26 <SteveH> gavinc, actually, you can't  - you can copy one, but no reuse in different graphs

Steve Harris: gavinc, actually, you can't - you can copy one, but no reuse in different graphs

15:52:40 <SteveH> …necessarily

Steve Harris: …necessarily

15:52:40 <AndyS> q+ to ask Oracle about reading the same ttl file twice

Andy Seaborne: q+ to ask Oracle about reading the same ttl file twice

15:52:41 <gavinc> correction, you can in SOME SPARQL stores

Gavin Carothers: correction, you can in SOME SPARQL stores

15:52:42 <ericP> q+ to ask how this is different from named identifiers?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to ask how this is different from named identifiers?

15:52:43 <gavinc> sigh

Gavin Carothers: sigh

15:53:40 <AndyS> Shall we try the other proposal as a strawpoll?

Andy Seaborne: Shall we try the other proposal as a strawpoll?

15:54:04 <davidwood> ack AndyS

David Wood: ack AndyS

15:54:04 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask Oracle about reading the same ttl file twice

Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask Oracle about reading the same ttl file twice

15:54:14 <SteveH> davidwood, I think the usecase are as common as each other

Steve Harris: davidwood, I think the usecase are as common as each other

15:55:40 <sandro> souri: the blank nodes names are combined with the graph names -- and are stable ids.   If you read the file multiple times, it's the same bnode.

Souripriya Das: the blank nodes names are combined with the graph names -- and are stable ids. If you read the file multiple times, it's the same bnode. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:55:50 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:55:50 <Zakim> MacTed was not muted, MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed was not muted, MacTed

15:55:59 <MacTed> q+ to talk again about container scope

Ted Thibodeau: q+ to talk again about container scope

15:56:21 <Zakim> -ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP

15:56:34 <Zakim> +ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP

15:56:42 <gkellogg> BNode scope should just be to a particular parse of a specific document. Parsing twice should result in two different nodes. Otherwise, use Skolemized identifiers

Gregg Kellogg: BNode scope should just be to a particular parse of a specific document. Parsing twice should result in two different nodes. Otherwise, use Skolemized identifiers

15:56:43 <sandro> souri: if you say _:b1 in 2009 and again say _:b1 in 2011, we make it the same node -- because otherwise users can't get at that bnode, to add some more data.   So we went with that option.

Souripriya Das: if you say _:b1 in 2009 and again say _:b1 in 2011, we make it the same node -- because otherwise users can't get at that bnode, to add some more data. So we went with that option. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:56:51 <cygri> q+ to ask wether stores that don't support shared bnodes conform to SPARQL

Richard Cyganiak: q+ to ask wether stores that don't support shared bnodes conform to SPARQL

15:57:24 <sandro> souri: but we could add a flag to do it the other way, when people want.

Souripriya Das: but we could add a flag to do it the other way, when people want. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:57:44 <ericP> INSERT INTO <g1> { _:gen1 <p1> "s1" }; INSERT INTO <g1> { _:gen1 <p2> "s2" }; -- how many distinct subjects are there in <g1>?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: INSERT INTO <g1> { _:gen1 <p1> "s1" }; INSERT INTO <g1> { _:gen1 <p2> "s2" }; -- how many distinct subjects are there in <g1>?

15:57:49 <ericP> sounds like 1 in Oracle

Eric Prud'hommeaux: sounds like 1 in Oracle

15:59:04 <Souri> q+ to say (if we do go with bNode sharing amongst graphs) why address it partially? Why restrict the context to a single trig document? One could define a context (as a set of trig documents, for example) for which graphs share bNode ids.

Souripriya Das: q+ to say (if we do go with bNode sharing amongst graphs) why address it partially? Why restrict the context to a single trig document? One could define a context (as a set of trig documents, for example) for which graphs share bNode ids.

15:59:32 <sandro> good luck chairing, davidwood  :-)

Sandro Hawke: good luck chairing, davidwood :-)

15:59:42 <davidwood> Thanks, sandro :)

David Wood: Thanks, sandro :)

16:00:10 <gavinc> q?

Gavin Carothers: q?

16:00:18 <davidwood> ack ericP

David Wood: ack ericP

16:00:18 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask how this is different from named identifiers?

Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to ask how this is different from named identifiers?

16:00:27 <MacTed> q-

Ted Thibodeau: q-

16:00:29 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

16:00:34 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

16:01:28 <sandro> eric: Zhe raised the concern that shared blank node labels in a big trig file could be a maintenance problem.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zhe raised the concern that shared blank node labels in a big trig file could be a maintenance problem. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:01:44 <davidwood> ack cygri

David Wood: ack cygri

16:01:44 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to ask wether stores that don't support shared bnodes conform to SPARQL

Zakim IRC Bot: cygri, you wanted to ask wether stores that don't support shared bnodes conform to SPARQL

16:01:47 <AndyS> ericP: concern (oracle) is that shared across graphs for OWL (e.g.).  Issue is persistent identifiers.  How is more complex to have shared bnodes than URIs?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: concern (oracle) is that shared across graphs for OWL (e.g.). Issue is persistent identifiers. How is more complex to have shared bnodes than URIs? [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

16:01:49 <sandro> eric: How is that harder than dealing with URLs that are shared between graphs.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: How is that harder than dealing with URLs that are shared between graphs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:01:53 <zwu2> not following you, eric

Zhe Wu: not following you, eric

16:01:59 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

16:02:18 <sandro> cygri: bnodes are variables, so sharing them is more complex.

Richard Cyganiak: bnodes are variables, so sharing them is more complex. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:02:56 <sandro> cygri: Does a conforming SPARQL store have to support shared blank nodes?

Richard Cyganiak: Does a conforming SPARQL store have to support shared blank nodes? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:03:08 <SteveH> I can say that making 4store behave so that bNode label scope is the document would be very easy, and there would be few additional side effects

Steve Harris: I can say that making 4store behave so that bNode label scope is the document would be very easy, and there would be few additional side effects

16:03:28 <sandro> AndyS: There is a test on this, Yes.

Andy Seaborne: There is a test on this, Yes. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:03:35 <davidwood> ack Souri

David Wood: ack Souri

16:03:35 <Zakim> Souri, you wanted to say (if we do go with bNode sharing amongst graphs) why address it partially? Why restrict the context to a single trig document? One could define a context

Zakim IRC Bot: Souri, you wanted to say (if we do go with bNode sharing amongst graphs) why address it partially? Why restrict the context to a single trig document? One could define a context

16:03:38 <Zakim> ... (as a set of trig documents, for example) for which graphs share bNode ids.

Zakim IRC Bot: ... (as a set of trig documents, for example) for which graphs share bNode ids.

16:04:08 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

16:04:14 <SteveH> Souri, if you want to do that you have Skolem URIs

Steve Harris: Souri, if you want to do that you have Skolem URIs

16:05:02 <gkellogg> sharing BNodes across parser runs is what Skolum ids are for, no?

Gregg Kellogg: sharing BNodes across parser runs is what Skolum ids are for, no?

16:05:14 <davidwood> ack sandro

David Wood: ack sandro

16:05:18 <sandro> q-

Sandro Hawke: q-

16:05:53 <LeeF> :-D

Lee Feigenbaum: :-D

16:05:55 <Souri> :-)

Souripriya Das: :-)

16:05:57 <AndyS> david: asks cygri about current position after discussion

David Wood: asks cygri about current position after discussion [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

16:06:50 <AndyS> cygri: accept people want to do this.  Not convinced this is the right thing to do.  I ask "what breaks" .. need to think about it.

Richard Cyganiak: accept people want to do this. Not convinced this is the right thing to do. I ask "what breaks" .. need to think about it. [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

16:07:20 <Zakim> -ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP

16:07:23 <AndyS> ... not in a position at the moment to say I accept

Andy Seaborne: ... not in a position at the moment to say I accept

16:07:26 <SteveH> Question for cygri, would you prefer it was undefined / implementation defined as it is now?

Steve Harris: Question for cygri, would you prefer it was undefined / implementation defined as it is now?

16:07:36 <Zakim> +ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP

16:08:08 <Zakim> -ScottB

Zakim IRC Bot: -ScottB

16:08:26 <SteveH> I don't think it's reasonable to consider this as a small change!

Steve Harris: I don't think it's reasonable to consider this as a small change!

16:08:42 <zwu2> there are implementations on the line, David,

Zhe Wu: there are implementations on the line, David,

16:08:45 <AndyS> david: we need to make progress ... agenda was little steps for things after some time of the RDF-WG running

David Wood: we need to make progress ... agenda was little steps for things after some time of the RDF-WG running [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

16:08:46 <zwu2> it is not a small issue

Zhe Wu: it is not a small issue

16:08:47 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1

16:08:56 <sandro> My question for cygri is (a) how else can we do sparql backups and (b) how else to do http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs#Separation_of_Inference

Sandro Hawke: My question for cygri is (a) how else can we do sparql backups and (b) how else to do http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs#Separation_of_Inference

16:09:35 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

16:09:36 <PatH> Sorry Im late. Wassup?

Patrick Hayes: Sorry Im late. Wassup?

16:09:46 <sandro> rofl PatH

Sandro Hawke: rofl PatH

16:10:00 <davidwood> ISSUE-21 was opened on 2011-04-01

David Wood: ISSUE-21 was opened on 2011-04-01

16:10:01 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/21

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/21

16:10:04 <PatH> Tnx.

Patrick Hayes: Tnx.

16:10:34 <gavinc> +q

Gavin Carothers: +q

16:10:42 <davidwood> ack sandro

David Wood: ack sandro

16:11:21 <SteveH> q+ to give my position

Steve Harris: q+ to give my position

16:11:31 <davidwood> ack gavinc

David Wood: ack gavinc

16:11:58 <AndyS> ACTION: cygri: send email to list about bNodes labels in TriG docs

ACTION: cygri: send email to list about bNodes labels in TriG docs

16:11:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-183 - Send email to list about bNodes labels in TriG docs [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2012-09-12].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-183 - Send email to list about bNodes labels in TriG docs [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2012-09-12].

16:12:25 <davidwood> ack SteveH

David Wood: ack SteveH

16:12:25 <Zakim> SteveH, you wanted to give my position

Zakim IRC Bot: SteveH, you wanted to give my position

16:12:51 <Zakim> -ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP

16:12:55 <Zakim> +ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP

16:13:11 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

16:13:13 <AndyS> steveH: most important is consensus and consistency

Steve Harris: most important is consensus and consistency [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

16:14:10 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1

16:14:16 <sandro> davidwood: Meeting is adjourned.

David Wood: Meeting is adjourned. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:14:16 <sandro> Topic: After meeting discussion

6. After meeting discussion

16:15:04 <Souri> q+

Souripriya Das: q+

16:15:16 <SteveH> the agenda could have linked to the threads

Steve Harris: the agenda could have linked to the threads

16:15:32 <davidwood> Souri, the meeting (and thus the queue) is closed.

David Wood: Souri, the meeting (and thus the queue) is closed.

16:15:44 <Arnaud> I feel David's pain but agree with Sandro, it doesn't seem fair to suddenly force resolution

Arnaud Le Hors: I feel David's pain but agree with Sandro, it doesn't seem fair to suddenly force resolution

16:16:28 <AndyS> never mind

Andy Seaborne: never mind

16:16:31 <SteveH> AndyS, you might nee to type

Steve Harris: AndyS, you might nee to type

16:16:56 <davidwood> Zakim, who is on the phone?

David Wood: Zakim, who is on the phone?

16:16:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, AndyS, +1.707.318.aabb, Ivan (muted), davidwood, Arnaud, AZ, MacTed (muted), gkellogg, Souri, Sandro, SteveH, gavinc, zwu2, cygri, LeeF, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, AndyS, +1.707.318.aabb, Ivan (muted), davidwood, Arnaud, AZ, MacTed (muted), gkellogg, Souri, Sandro, SteveH, gavinc, zwu2, cygri, LeeF, ericP

16:17:02 <AndyS> much frustration of blocking by very high bar being introduced in a TC

Andy Seaborne: much frustration of blocking by very high bar being introduced in a TC

16:17:17 <Arnaud> +1 to sandro

Arnaud Le Hors: +1 to sandro

16:18:25 <sandro> sandro: I'm fine with us demanding more of participants -- eg reading the email -- but lets not do it quite so suddenly.

Sandro Hawke: I'm fine with us demanding more of participants -- eg reading the email -- but lets not do it quite so suddenly. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:19:37 <Zakim> -ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP

16:19:47 <Souri> why not extend Trig to have named contexts as scopes for bNode sharing graphs (in a trig document): context <http://.../C1> graphs {G1, G2} . context <http://.../C2> graphs {G3, G4, G9}

Souripriya Das: why not extend Trig to have named contexts as scopes for bNode sharing graphs (in a trig document): context <http://.../C1> graphs {G1, G2} . context <http://.../C2> graphs {G3, G4, G9}

16:20:29 <Zakim> -gkellogg

Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg

16:20:32 <AndyS> I'd rather make bNodes anon individuals ... that is way out of scope!

Andy Seaborne: I'd rather make bNodes anon individuals ... that is way out of scope!

16:20:37 <PatH> PLase don't call them "contexts", though. HOw about 'scopes'?

Patrick Hayes: PLase don't call them "contexts", though. HOw about 'scopes'?

16:20:44 <SteveH> +1 to AndyS

Steve Harris: +1 to AndyS

16:20:50 <SteveH> …on both counts

Steve Harris: …on both counts

16:21:40 <SteveH> This isn't a small decision - it effects existing systems

Steve Harris: This isn't a small decision - it effects existing systems

16:21:43 <cygri> it is not a trivial issue.

Richard Cyganiak: it is not a trivial issue.

16:22:05 <Souri> Yes, scopes (instead of contexts). bNodeScope <http://.../SC1> graphs {G1, G2} . bNodeScope <http://.../SC2> graphs {G3, G4, G9}

Souripriya Das: Yes, scopes (instead of contexts). bNodeScope <http://.../SC1> graphs {G1, G2} . bNodeScope <http://.../SC2> graphs {G3, G4, G9}

16:22:06 <AndyS> so go for the form that limits the change needed ??

Andy Seaborne: so go for the form that limits the change needed ??

16:22:41 <SteveH> exactly

Steve Harris: exactly

16:23:26 <PatH> IS there a current accepted consensus? The two obvious ones are document scope and graph scope. Is either of these the current reality?

Patrick Hayes: IS there a current accepted consensus? The two obvious ones are document scope and graph scope. Is either of these the current reality?

16:23:42 <SteveH> PatH, everyone does one of those

Steve Harris: PatH, everyone does one of those

16:23:42 <Guus> sure

Guus Schreiber: sure

16:23:59 <sandro> PatH, we tried to reach consensus and everyone but Richard was okay with document-scope.   Richard said he needed to think about it more.

Sandro Hawke: PatH, we tried to reach consensus and everyone but Richard was okay with document-scope. Richard said he needed to think about it more.

16:24:01 <SteveH> PatH, some people care more than others, and we don't know which is more common

Steve Harris: PatH, some people care more than others, and we don't know which is more common

16:24:04 <PatH> But some do one and some do the other?

Patrick Hayes: But some do one and some do the other?

16:24:15 <SteveH> sandro, Richard and Souri were unhappy

Steve Harris: sandro, Richard and Souri were unhappy

16:24:19 <PatH> Sounds like its time to think some more :-)

Patrick Hayes: Sounds like its time to think some more :-)

16:24:27 <SteveH> PatH, yes, you have to do one or the other

Steve Harris: PatH, yes, you have to do one or the other

16:24:54 <SteveH> …realistically, you could pick a behaviour at random I guess :)

Steve Harris: …realistically, you could pick a behaviour at random I guess :)

16:25:01 <Souri> I'd suggest using explicit bNode Sharing Scopes

Souripriya Das: I'd suggest using explicit bNode Sharing Scopes

16:25:03 <LeeF> I would not object to either discussion here.

Lee Feigenbaum: I would not object to either decision here.

16:25:07 <SteveH> same here

Steve Harris: same here

16:25:08 <LeeF> s/discussion/decision
16:25:39 <PatH> HOw about: default is document scope, but have a way to 'tighten scope around a graph, maybe with a syntax marker?

Patrick Hayes: HOw about: default is document scope, but have a way to 'tighten scope around a graph, maybe with a syntax marker?

16:26:04 <PatH> After all, graph scope is document scope + being careful with bnodeIDs.

Patrick Hayes: After all, graph scope is document scope + being careful with bnodeIDs.

16:26:23 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

16:26:23 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

16:26:42 <Souri> Agree with Pat, but would like the scope to be named, so that from other documents we can refer to this scope.

Souripriya Das: Agree with Pat, but would like the scope to be named, so that from other documents we can refer to this scope.

16:26:45 <sandro> Andy: likely I'd formally object to graph-scope blank node labels.

Andy Seaborne: likely I'd formally object to graph-scope blank node labels. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:27:11 <SteveH> A strawpoll that informed a proposal would have helped I think

Steve Harris: A strawpoll that informed a proposal would have helped I think

16:27:11 <Guus> I like Pat's proposal, but am wary of additional syntax

Guus Schreiber: I like Pat's proposal, but am wary of additional syntax

16:27:29 <Souri> ... and the scopes cannot be bNodes -- must be IRIs

Souripriya Das: ... and the scopes cannot be bNodes -- must be IRIs

16:27:31 <AndyS> (sandro - the meeting is adjourned - I was going to truncate the minutes to when David said adjourned - is that best practice?)

Andy Seaborne: (sandro - the meeting is adjourned - I was going to truncate the minutes to when David said adjourned - is that best practice?)

16:27:33 <SteveH> We would object to any significant deviation from existing TriG implementaitons

Steve Harris: We would object to any significant deviation from existing TriG implementaitons

16:27:43 <SteveH> such as extra syntax

Steve Harris: such as extra syntax

16:27:46 <PatH> I was thinking more that a graph could have a flag indicating that its nodeIDs are private to it. WIderscopeists can treat this as a signal to standardize apaprt.

Patrick Hayes: I was thinking more that a graph could have a flag indicating that its nodeIDs are private to it. WIderscopeists can treat this as a signal to standardize apaprt.

16:27:57 <sandro> AndyS, I think this stuff is valuable -- I'd keep it as "after-meeting discussion"

Sandro Hawke: AndyS, I think this stuff is valuable -- I'd keep it as "after-meeting discussion"

16:28:16 <AndyS> sandro - ack - leave in IRC, not in minutes?

Andy Seaborne: sandro - ack - leave in IRC, not in minutes?

16:28:25 <Guus> not breaking current practice should be a key concern

Guus Schreiber: not breaking current practice should be a key concern

16:28:40 <SteveH> yes

Steve Harris: yes

16:28:42 <AndyS> so what TriG impls should we check?

Andy Seaborne: so what TriG impls should we check?

16:29:20 <sandro> AndyS, I would keep in minutes, with clear heading, but it's your call

Sandro Hawke: AndyS, I would keep in minutes, with clear heading, but it's your call

16:30:01 <gavinc> RESOLVE to close ISSUE-82 with the wording: "In a TriG document graph statements with the same graph IRI should be unioned to form a single RDF Graph. Blank nodes in each graph statement with the same label are considered to be the same blank node."

Gavin Carothers: RESOLVE to close ISSUE-82 with the wording: "In a TriG document graph statements with the same graph IRI should be unioned to form a single RDF Graph. Blank nodes in each graph statement with the same label are considered to be the same blank node."

16:30:03 <Zakim> -Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus

16:30:15 <AndyS> redland, sesame, jena, rdflib, perl RDF::..., dotnetrdf, (ruby), javascript, 4store, ... what more?

Andy Seaborne: redland, sesame, jena, rdflib, perl RDF::..., dotnetrdf, (ruby), javascript, 4store, ... what more?

16:30:54 <LeeF> Anzo I reported on already

Lee Feigenbaum: Anzo I reported on already

16:31:00 <davidwood> AndyS, not really, no :)

David Wood: AndyS, not really, no :)

16:31:31 <SteveH> AndyS, Oracle?

Steve Harris: AndyS, Oracle?

16:31:46 <AndyS> virtuoso, DB2RDF, anzo, oracle (already mentioned here),

Andy Seaborne: virtuoso, DB2RDF, anzo, oracle (already mentioned here),

16:31:49 <davidwood> Oracle uses Jena's parser, no?

David Wood: Oracle uses Jena's parser, no?

16:31:59 <Souri> Steve, not sure what the question is?

Souripriya Das: Steve, not sure what the question is?

16:32:02 <SteveH> 5store, but it's probably not fair to count that as well, and actually I don't know what it does here

Steve Harris: 5store, but it's probably not fair to count that as well, and actually I don't know what it does here

16:32:07 <AndyS> Oracle uses Redland and Jena at different time IIRC

Andy Seaborne: Oracle uses Redland and Jena at different time IIRC

16:32:46 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call?

16:32:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, +1.707.318.aabb, Ivan (muted), davidwood, Arnaud, AZ, MacTed, Souri, Sandro, SteveH, gavinc, zwu2, cygri, LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see AndyS, +1.707.318.aabb, Ivan (muted), davidwood, Arnaud, AZ, MacTed, Souri, Sandro, SteveH, gavinc, zwu2, cygri, LeeF

16:34:26 <Zakim> -Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan

16:34:31 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

16:34:32 <Zakim> -Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri

16:34:34 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

16:34:35 <Zakim> -cygri

Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri

16:34:35 <Zakim> -davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood

16:34:37 <Zakim> -LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF

16:34:38 <Zakim> -SteveH

Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH

16:34:38 <Zakim> -Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud

16:34:40 <Zakim> -gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc

16:34:43 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

16:34:46 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

16:34:48 <Zakim> - +1.707.318.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.707.318.aabb

16:39:47 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, zwu2, in SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: disconnecting the lone participant, zwu2, in SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

16:39:48 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended

16:39:48 <Zakim> Attendees were Guus, AndyS, +1.707.318.aabb, Ivan, +1.540.898.aacc, +1.408.996.aadd, Arnaud, davidwood, +1.781.273.aaee, AZ, +1.603.897.aaff, MacTed, gkellogg, Souri, Sandro,

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Guus, AndyS, +1.707.318.aabb, Ivan, +1.540.898.aacc, +1.408.996.aadd, Arnaud, davidwood, +1.781.273.aaee, AZ, +1.603.897.aaff, MacTed, gkellogg, Souri, Sandro,

16:39:48 <Zakim> ... ScottB, SteveH, +1.617.324.aagg, ericP, +1.707.861.aahh, gavinc, zwu2, +3539149aajj, +3539149aakk, cygri, +1.617.553.aall, LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: ... ScottB, SteveH, +1.617.324.aagg, ericP, +1.707.861.aahh, gavinc, zwu2, +3539149aajj, +3539149aakk, cygri, +1.617.553.aall, LeeF



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This revision (#1) generated 2012-09-05 17:10:33 UTC by 'aseaborne', comments: None