RDF Working Group

Minutes of 18 April 2012

Seen
Alex Hall, David Wood, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gavin Carothers, Guus Schreiber, Patrick Hayes, Peter Patel-Schneider, Sandro Hawke, Scott Bauer, Souripriya Das, Ted Thibodeau, Thomas Baker, Zhe Wu
Scribe
Scott Bauer
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. accept the minutes from last week. link
  2. Use application/n-triples for content type of N-Triples link
Topics
14:58:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-rdf-wg-irc

14:59:03 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?

David Wood: Zakim, who is here?

14:59:03 <Zakim> sorry, davidwood, I don't know what conference this is

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, davidwood, I don't know what conference this is

14:59:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, mischat, Guus, gavinc, ScottB, MacTed, danbri, davidwood, manu, NickH, manu1, yvesr_, trackbot, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, mischat, Guus, gavinc, ScottB, MacTed, danbri, davidwood, manu, NickH, manu1, yvesr_, trackbot, sandro, ericP

14:59:11 <davidwood> Zakim, this will be RDF

David Wood: Zakim, this will be RDF

14:59:11 <Zakim> ok, davidwood, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, davidwood, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started

14:59:23 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?

David Wood: Zakim, who is here?

14:59:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, davidwood

14:59:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, mischat, Guus, gavinc, ScottB, MacTed, danbri, davidwood, manu, NickH, manu1, yvesr_, trackbot, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, mischat, Guus, gavinc, ScottB, MacTed, danbri, davidwood, manu, NickH, manu1, yvesr_, trackbot, sandro, ericP

15:00:30 <ScottB> Zakim, Tony is temporarily me

Scott Bauer: Zakim, Tony is temporarily me

15:00:31 <Zakim> +ScottB; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +ScottB; got it

15:00:40 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

15:00:50 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:00:50 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:00:53 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:00:53 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:00:59 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

15:01:04 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

15:01:52 <ScottB> scribe: Scott

(Scribe set to Scott Bauer)

15:02:04 <zwu2> zakim, code?

Zhe Wu: zakim, code?

15:02:04 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2

15:02:11 <Zakim> +gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc

15:02:42 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.650.265.aaaa

15:02:54 <zwu2> zakim, +1.650.265.aaaa is me

Zhe Wu: zakim, +1.650.265.aaaa is me

15:02:55 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2; got it

15:02:57 <zwu2> zakim, mute me

Zhe Wu: zakim, mute me

15:02:57 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should now be muted

15:03:02 <Zakim> +??P21

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P21

15:03:08 <Zakim> +Tom_Baker (was ??P21)

Zakim IRC Bot: +Tom_Baker (was ??P21)

15:04:15 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:04:15 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

15:04:20 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aabb

15:04:32 <AlexHall> zakim, aabb is me

Alex Hall: zakim, aabb is me

15:04:32 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall; got it

15:05:33 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

15:05:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, davidwood, ScottB, MacTed, EricP, Sandro, gavinc, zwu2 (muted), Tom_Baker, AlexHall

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, davidwood, ScottB, MacTed, EricP, Sandro, gavinc, zwu2 (muted), Tom_Baker, AlexHall

15:05:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see mischat, tbaker, AlexHall, zwu2, RRSAgent, Zakim, Guus, gavinc, ScottB, MacTed, danbri, davidwood, manu, NickH, manu1, yvesr_, trackbot, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see mischat, tbaker, AlexHall, zwu2, RRSAgent, Zakim, Guus, gavinc, ScottB, MacTed, danbri, davidwood, manu, NickH, manu1, yvesr_, trackbot, sandro, ericP

15:06:40 <ScottB> Topic: Meeting Minutes from April 11

1. Meeting Minutes from April 11

15:06:49 <tbaker> +1 accept minutes

Thomas Baker: +1 accept minutes

15:06:53 <ScottB> Proposed:  accept minutes

PROPOSED: accept minutes

15:07:14 <ScottB> Resolution: accept the minutes from last week.

RESOLVED: accept the minutes from last week.

15:07:28 <ScottB> Topic: action items

2. action items

15:07:52 <ScottB> Guus:  Gavin do you want to record a new issue.

Guus Schreiber: Gavin do you want to record a new issue.

15:08:00 <ScottB> Gavin:  I'd like to but can't

Gavin Carothers: I'd like to but can't

15:08:18 <ScottB> Topic:  Turtle LC

3. Turtle LC

15:08:41 <Zakim> +??P27

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P27

15:08:43 <ScottB> Guus:  Gavin can you comment

Guus Schreiber: Gavin can you comment

15:09:02 <ScottB> Gavin:  I should be able to get the remainder of the minutes in my the next conference

Gavin Carothers: I should be able to get the remainder of the minutes in my the next conference

15:09:18 <ScottB> Guus:  Just editorial comments no major new issues.

Guus Schreiber: Just editorial comments no major new issues.

15:09:30 <gavinc> application/n-triples vs. application/ntriples

Gavin Carothers: application/n-triples vs. application/ntriples

15:09:38 <ScottB> Gavin:  Do we want a  dash or comma in the media types?

Gavin Carothers: Do we want a dash or comma in the media types?

15:10:16 <ScottB> Guus: no dash you mean.  that's 12.1

Guus Schreiber: no dash you mean. that's 12.1

15:10:36 <ScottB> Gavin:  The dashes are used like segment markers.

Gavin Carothers: The dashes are used like segment markers.

15:10:53 <ScottB> … not able to find languages that had dashes

… not able to find languages that had dashes

15:11:15 <ScottB> … we don't believe any application uses slash n-triples at the moment.

… we don't believe any application uses slash n-triples at the moment.

15:11:28 <ScottB> Guus:  My intuition -- leave out the dash.

Guus Schreiber: My intuition -- leave out the dash.

15:11:46 <ScottB> Guus: Sandro can you comment.

Guus Schreiber: Sandro can you comment.

15:11:48 <MacTed> http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/index.html

Ted Thibodeau: http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/index.html

15:11:54 <gavinc> example with dash: audio/x-ms-wma application/x-gzip video/x-ms-wmv

Gavin Carothers: example with dash: audio/x-ms-wma application/x-gzip video/x-ms-wmv

15:12:03 <ScottB> Sandro:  Maybe a dash is used like a space.

Sandro Hawke: Maybe a dash is used like a space.

15:12:15 <gavinc> application/x-font-ttf

Gavin Carothers: application/x-font-ttf

15:12:24 <sandro> http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/application/index.html

Sandro Hawke: http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/application/index.html

15:12:31 <ScottB> Gavin: there is no code that uses an n-triples media type.

Gavin Carothers: there is no code that uses an n-triples media type.

15:12:47 <ScottB> Guus:  what will be easiest to remember.

Guus Schreiber: what will be easiest to remember.

15:13:00 <ScottB> Sandro: how do we write it in the spec.

Sandro Hawke: how do we write it in the spec.

15:13:12 <ScottB> Gavin:  We write it with a dash.

Gavin Carothers: We write it with a dash.

15:13:20 <Zakim> +??P31

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P31

15:13:32 <ScottB> Sandro: we call it n hyphen triple

Sandro Hawke: we call it n hyphen triple

15:13:37 <pfps> zakim, ??P31 is me

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, ??P31 is me

15:13:37 <Zakim> +pfps; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pfps; got it

15:13:56 <sandro> cwm -n-triples

Sandro Hawke: cwm -n-triples

15:13:57 <ScottB> Gavin: others use it without a dash.  use it on the command line.

Gavin Carothers: others use it without a dash. use it on the command line.

15:14:00 <sandro> cwm --n-triples

Sandro Hawke: cwm --n-triples

15:14:01 <gavinc> cwm -ntriples

Gavin Carothers: cwm -ntriples

15:14:33 <PatH> Sorry Im late.

Patrick Hayes: Sorry Im late.

15:14:38 <ScottB> Sandro:  Should use two dashes if more than one char.

Sandro Hawke: Should use two dashes if more than one char.

15:14:51 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

15:14:52 <gavinc> +0

Gavin Carothers: +0

15:14:52 <Souri> +1

Souripriya Das: +1

15:14:55 <sandro> +1 dash   (mildly)

Sandro Hawke: +1 dash (mildly)

15:14:59 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

15:15:02 <ScottB> Guus:  type a plus one you are in favor of the dash.

Guus Schreiber: type a plus one you are in favor of the dash.

15:15:06 <ericP> +1 to —

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 to —

15:15:10 <gavinc> heh

Gavin Carothers: heh

15:15:26 <Zakim> +PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH

15:15:35 <sandro> +1 to &dash;

Sandro Hawke: +1 to &dash;

15:16:02 <gavinc> Entity 'dash' not defined ;)

Gavin Carothers: Entity 'dash' not defined ;)

15:16:04 <sandro> love some of these mime types, like:  	vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.drawingml.diagramLayout+xml

Sandro Hawke: love some of these mime types, like: vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.drawingml.diagramLayout+xml

15:16:31 <MacTed> ietf-types@iana.org  :-)

Ted Thibodeau: ietf-types@iana.org :-)

15:16:41 <gavinc> RESOLVED: Use application/n-triples for content type of N-Triples

RESOLVED: Use application/n-triples for content type of N-Triples

15:18:50 <ericP> ACTION: ericP to send mail to ietf-types to request the media type application/n-triples

ACTION: ericP to send mail to ietf-types to request the media type application/n-triples

15:18:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-163 - Send mail to ietf-types to request the media type application/n-triples [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-04-25].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-163 - Send mail to ietf-types to request the media type application/n-triples [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-04-25].

15:18:52 <ScottB> Guus:  Part one has been covered before.

Guus Schreiber: Part one has been covered before.

15:19:12 <ScottB> … plan for a new draft next week.

… plan for a new draft next week.

15:19:20 <ScottB> Gavin: another week would be nice.

Gavin Carothers: another week would be nice.

15:19:59 <MacTed> ( mimetype hyphen appears likely acceptable --   	http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/application/remote-printing )

Ted Thibodeau: ( mimetype hyphen appears likely acceptable -- http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/application/remote-printing )

15:20:05 <ScottB> Guus:  We recorded a new data 2 may for the new draft to be available

Guus Schreiber: We recorded a new date 2 may for the new draft to be available

15:20:16 <ScottB> s/data/date
15:20:44 <ScottB> Topic: Named graph semantics

4. Named graph semantics

15:21:31 <PatH> whre is that new use case mentioned?

Patrick Hayes: whre is that new use case mentioned?

15:21:49 <ScottB> Guus:  Ask to write UC Europeana to use case page.

Guus Schreiber: Ask to write UC Europeana to use case page.

15:22:17 <ScottB> Sandro:  I want to understand use cases as a coder.  Discussion on this?

Sandro Hawke: I want to understand use cases as a coder. Discussion on this?

15:22:37 <ScottB> Guus:  I'll ask one of the authors to join the telecom.

Guus Schreiber: I'll ask one of the authors to join the telecom.

15:22:49 <ScottB> Sandro:  ask him to write it first.

Sandro Hawke: ask him to write it first.

15:23:02 <ScottB> … in something a  coder can understand.

… in something a coder can understand.

15:23:18 <ScottB> Guus:   It's an enormous amount of data.

Guus Schreiber: It's an enormous amount of data.

15:23:32 <ScottB> … maybe you can ask him a few questions on the list.

… maybe you can ask him a few questions on the list.

15:23:36 <ScottB> Sandro:  ok

Sandro Hawke: ok

15:24:14 <ScottB> Guus: They have issues.   Art work described by multiple organizations.

Guus Schreiber: They have issues. Art work described by multiple organizations.

15:24:43 <ScottB> subtopic: RDF with Contexts

4.1. RDF with Contexts

15:24:59 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/RDFwithContexts

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/RDFwithContexts

15:25:00 <ScottB> Guus:  Thanks to Pat for the wiki page.

Guus Schreiber: Thanks to Pat for the wiki page.

15:25:14 <ScottB> … We should start with QA

… We should start with QA

15:25:22 <ScottB> … session

… session

15:25:29 <davidwood> +1 to PatH for writing this up

David Wood: +1 to PatH for writing this up

15:26:11 <ScottB> Pat:  the generalization if of something not necessarily a graph.  Deliberately don't restrict the form of that document.

Patrick Hayes: the generalization if of something not necessarily a graph. Deliberately don't restrict the form of that document.

15:26:15 <gavinc> +1000 allowing it to be empty

Gavin Carothers: +1000 allowing it to be empty

15:26:30 <davidwood> +1 to allowing empties

David Wood: +1 to allowing empties

15:26:48 <ScottB> … agree on the meaning of the IRIs without specifying what that meaning is.

… agree on the meaning of the IRIs without specifying what that meaning is.

15:27:02 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

15:27:18 <Guus> ack sandro

Guus Schreiber: ack sandro

15:27:50 <ScottB> Sandro:  when will two colleagues publishing about the same thing use IRI's in different ways.

Sandro Hawke: when will two colleagues publishing about the same thing use IRI's in different ways.

15:28:18 <ScottB> Pat:  Data from different sources should be in diff contexts ( some have this perspective)

Patrick Hayes: Data from different sources should be in diff contexts ( some have this perspective)

15:28:41 <ScottB> Sandro:  There is a global hypotheses,

Sandro Hawke: There is a global hypotheses,

15:28:54 <MacTed> q+

Ted Thibodeau: q+

15:28:59 <ScottB> Pat:  RDF now accepts the global hypothesis.

Patrick Hayes: RDF now accepts the global hypothesis.

15:29:26 <davidwood> Accepting a local hypothesis makes *no statement* about the global hypothesis.

David Wood: Accepting a local hypothesis makes *no statement* about the global hypothesis.

15:29:27 <ScottB> Sandro:  If the global hypothesis holds you don't need this.

Sandro Hawke: If the global hypothesis holds you don't need this.

15:29:42 <ScottB> Pat:  Still very useful to put one context under another.

Patrick Hayes: Still very useful to put one context under another.

15:30:03 <ScottB> … recording this context more can be added.

… recording this context more can be added.

15:30:28 <ScottB> … one URI can mean progressively finer things as people add to it.

… one URI can mean progressively finer things as people add to it.

15:30:43 <MacTed> q+ to say the global hypothesis has been disproven already...  the challenge is dealing with data that is presented as if it were valid

Ted Thibodeau: q+ to say the global hypothesis has been disproven already... the challenge is dealing with data that is presented as if it were valid

15:30:48 <ScottB> … even in the global hypothesis things can work this way.

… even in the global hypothesis things can work this way.

15:30:55 <ScottB> Sandro:  an example:

Sandro Hawke: an example?

15:31:09 <ScottB> s/example:/example?
15:31:38 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

15:31:54 <ScottB> Pat:  You might rely on a more restrictive meaning accidentally.

Patrick Hayes: You might rely on a more restrictive meaning accidentally.

15:31:59 <davidwood> q+ to provide other examples of violation of the global hypothesis

David Wood: q+ to provide other examples of violation of the global hypothesis

15:32:27 <ScottB> … easier to use the same term with some restriction.

… easier to use the same term with some restriction.

15:32:42 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

15:32:53 <Guus> ack MacTed

Guus Schreiber: ack MacTed

15:32:53 <Zakim> MacTed, you wanted to say the global hypothesis has been disproven already...  the challenge is dealing with data that is presented as if it were valid

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, you wanted to say the global hypothesis has been disproven already... the challenge is dealing with data that is presented as if it were valid

15:33:09 <ScottB> Ted:  the global hypothesis is the ideal but most are not living by it.  Local is the way things are.

Ted Thibodeau: the global hypothesis is the ideal but most are not living by it. Local is the way things are.

15:33:57 <ScottB> … it has been disproven.  Giving up is appropriate.  Lots of data is produced based on it.  we have to deal with it.

… it has been disproven. Giving up is appropriate. Lots of data is produced based on it. we have to deal with it.

15:34:05 <ericP> i'm not sure why I use terms like foaf:name if they mean different things to different people

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i'm not sure why I use terms like foaf:name if they mean different things to different people

15:34:09 <ericP> what's the point of RDF anyways?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: what's the point of RDF anyways?

15:34:24 <ScottB> Sandro:  The same URI is supposed to mean something different for the two us?

Sandro Hawke: The same URI is supposed to mean something different for the two us?

15:34:50 <ScottB> Ted:  We may both be wrong.   This is the case with owl:sambas.

Ted Thibodeau: We may both be wrong. This is the case with owl:sameas.

15:34:51 <sandro> q>

Sandro Hawke: q>

15:34:52 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

15:35:11 <ScottB> s/owl:sambas/owl:sameas
15:35:15 <Guus> ack davidwood

Guus Schreiber: ack davidwood

15:35:15 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to provide other examples of violation of the global hypothesis

Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to provide other examples of violation of the global hypothesis

15:35:16 <pfps> how is owl:sameAs broken???

Peter Patel-Schneider: how is owl:sameAs broken???

15:35:23 <ScottB> david:  I agree with Ted:

David Wood: I agree with Ted:

15:35:23 <sandro> sandro: The way to get the genie back in the bottle is Running Code.   We'll get there some day.

Sandro Hawke: The way to get the genie back in the bottle is Running Code. We'll get there some day. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:35:58 <Guus> I think the poinnt ewas not that owl:sameAs is broken, just the way it is used

Guus Schreiber: I think the poinnt ewas not that owl:sameAs is broken, just the way it is used

15:36:09 <ScottB> …  Data from the data web shoved into a triple store.   Using these I use some and pretend others don't exist.

… Data from the data web shoved into a triple store. Using these I use some and pretend others don't exist.

15:36:34 <ScottB> … you're overriding data that you choose.

… you're overriding data that you choose.

15:36:46 <Guus> q+

Guus Schreiber: q+

15:36:48 <ScottB> Sandro:  Give an example:

Sandro Hawke: Give an example:

15:36:54 <ericP> q?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q?

15:36:57 <Guus> q+ to give an example

Guus Schreiber: q+ to give an example

15:37:29 <ScottB> David:  Import from DBpedia.   RDF label in a dozen langs.  I strip some or all and replace  while reusing the rest of the triples.

David Wood: Import from DBpedia. RDF label in a dozen langs. I strip some or all and replace while reusing the rest of the triples.

15:38:02 <ScottB> Sandro:  Global, when you see rdf: label you know what it meant.

Sandro Hawke: Global, when you see rdf: label you know what it meant.

15:38:21 <ScottB> Sandro:  Would the new label to be true?

Sandro Hawke: Would the new label to be true?

15:38:40 <ScottB> David:  I think so.   I'm gong to make it up or do what I want.

David Wood: I think so. I'm gong to make it up or do what I want.

15:38:57 <ScottB> Sandro:  That doesn't mean you disagree with the use of the word.

Sandro Hawke: That doesn't mean you disagree with the use of the word.

15:39:19 <ScottB> Pat:  I think you are right but how do you tell the difference.

Patrick Hayes: I think you are right but how do you tell the difference.

15:39:40 <ericP> q+ to ask how we bridge from conventional RDF to a local hypothesis RDF

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to ask how we bridge from conventional RDF to a local hypothesis RDF

15:39:43 <ScottB> Sandro:  You can handle all in the first possiblity.

Sandro Hawke: You can handle all in the first possiblity.

15:40:03 <davidwood> What do you mean by "God"?

David Wood: What do you mean by "God"?

15:40:45 <ScottB> Pat:  You are presenting an extreme local view.

Patrick Hayes: You are presenting an extreme local view.

15:41:00 <ScottB> Sandro:  how can there be a middle ground?

Sandro Hawke: how can there be a middle ground?

15:41:21 <Guus> ack EricP

Guus Schreiber: ack EricP

15:41:21 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask how we bridge from conventional RDF to a local hypothesis RDF

Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to ask how we bridge from conventional RDF to a local hypothesis RDF

15:41:38 <sandro> sandro: Any time you think you belong on the same island, then you could both use the same URI in the global-hypothesis world.

Sandro Hawke: Any time you think you belong on the same island, then you could both use the same URI in the global-hypothesis world. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:41:41 <ScottB> Eric:  What mechanism will allow me to merge rdf graphs.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: What mechanism will allow me to merge rdf graphs.

15:42:10 <ScottB> … how would localities agree on how subjects or predicates mean the same thing.

… how would localities agree on how subjects or predicates mean the same thing.

15:42:40 <ScottB> … once the locality is introduced does it require more rigor to make the query.

… once the locality is introduced does it require more rigor to make the query.

15:43:27 <ScottB> Pat:  A context must be agreed on for a given group.

Patrick Hayes: A context must be agreed on for a given group.

15:43:53 <ScottB> Sandro:  If a larger group -- do they add another context URI.

Sandro Hawke: If a larger group -- do they add another context URI.

15:44:15 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

15:44:28 <ScottB> Ted:  There's a lot of data out there without context.

Ted Thibodeau: There's a lot of data out there without context.

15:44:50 <Guus> q-

Guus Schreiber: q-

15:45:02 <ScottB> … we'll have to deal with the fact that it is produced in one context and used in another.

… we'll have to deal with the fact that it is produced in one context and used in another.

15:45:10 <ScottB> … The assumption is a dirty merge.

… The assumption is a dirty merge.

15:45:37 <sandro> q+ to say people can be wrong, people can be talking about different points in time, people can be talking about imagined universes, yes.   But we can't just give up on the global hypothesis.

Sandro Hawke: q+ to say people can be wrong, people can be talking about different points in time, people can be talking about imagined universes, yes. But we can't just give up on the global hypothesis.

15:45:40 <ScottB> … global does not work because we don't have a clean, solid reference of what that is.

… global does not work because we don't have a clean, solid reference of what that is.

15:45:51 <davidwood> ..and the dirty merge is a feature, not a bug.  It is critical to the flexibility of RDF.

David Wood: ..and the dirty merge is a feature, not a bug. It is critical to the flexibility of RDF.

15:46:08 <ScottB> Pat:  If people pretend it does.  It will go on as before.

Patrick Hayes: If people pretend it does. It will go on as before.

15:46:40 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

15:46:40 <ScottB> … choice can be made to put them into contexts.   Just put inheritance tags in place.

… choice can be made to put them into contexts. Just put inheritance tags in place.

15:46:48 <Guus> ack sandro

Guus Schreiber: ack sandro

15:46:49 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to say people can be wrong, people can be talking about different points in time, people can be talking about imagined universes, yes.   But we can't just give

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to say people can be wrong, people can be talking about different points in time, people can be talking about imagined universes, yes. But we can't just give

15:46:49 <Zakim> ... up on the global hypothesis.

Zakim IRC Bot: ... up on the global hypothesis.

15:47:31 <ScottB> Sandro:  Anybody who wants to merge with someone else's data has to have a special agreement.

Sandro Hawke: Anybody who wants to merge with someone else's data has to have a special agreement.

15:48:00 <ScottB> Pat:  Tell the world that they have to be careful, so they can check to see if their data is consistant.

Patrick Hayes: Tell the world that they have to be careful, so they can check to see if their data is consistant.

15:49:16 <ScottB> Sandro:  Vocabularies can allow mix of 14 different properties.

Sandro Hawke: Vocabularies can allow mix of 14 different properties.

15:50:10 <ScottB> Pat:  a Large ontology has used this successfully.  You don't get exponential explosions.  They resolved ambiguities by introducing contexts.

Patrick Hayes: a Large ontology has used this successfully. You don't get exponential explosions. They resolved ambiguities by introducing contexts.

15:50:58 <ScottB> … they introduced a relationship of covering.

… they introduced a relationship of covering.

15:51:27 <ScottB> … these things have something in common as defined by a top context.

… these things have something in common as defined by a top context.

15:51:55 <ScottB> Sandro:  Theres a super property coving the different senses.

Sandro Hawke: Theres a super property coving the different senses.

15:52:35 <ScottB> Pat:  A change in context shifts vocabulary meaning.

Patrick Hayes: A change in context shifts vocabulary meaning.

15:52:38 <ScottB> S

S

15:53:04 <ScottB> Sandro:  that makes a lot of sense from an NLP perspective.

Sandro Hawke: that makes a lot of sense from an NLP perspective.

15:53:28 <pfps> I'm still having a hard time figuring out just why contexts should become part of RDF.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I'm still having a hard time figuring out just why contexts should become part of RDF.

15:53:33 <ScottB> … concerned about what it means in publishing RDF graphs, because you don't know the vocabulary.

… concerned about what it means in publishing RDF graphs, because you don't know the vocabulary.

15:53:49 <Zakim> -gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc

15:54:02 <ScottB> Pat:  It should be used in a context that changes meaning intended.

Patrick Hayes: It should be used in a context that changes meaning intended.

15:54:25 <ScottB> Sandro:  a little can be done in existing OWL.

Sandro Hawke: a little can be done in existing OWL.

15:54:49 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

15:55:08 <ScottB> … a person has a bunch of properties.  A person is a professor, there  is new meaning.  OWL reasoning understands that.

… a person has a bunch of properties. A person is a professor, there is new meaning. OWL reasoning understands that.

15:55:53 <ScottB> Pat:  You can do things like age changes.

Patrick Hayes: You can do things like age changes.

15:56:20 <ScottB> Sandro:  I'm concerned about vocabularies changing meanings arbitrarily.

Sandro Hawke: I'm concerned about vocabularies changing meanings arbitrarily.

15:56:36 <ericP> +1 to "Hieronymus Bosch" description

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 to "Hieronymus Bosch" description

15:57:02 <ScottB> Ted:  Meanings are going to shift regardless.

Ted Thibodeau: Meanings are going to shift regardless.

15:57:56 <ScottB> Ted:  AAA means this is going to happen.

Ted Thibodeau: AAA means this is going to happen.

15:58:53 <Zakim> +??P26

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P26

15:59:01 <pfps> zakim, ??p26 is me

Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, ??p26 is me

15:59:01 <Zakim> +pfps; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pfps; got it

15:59:16 <ScottB> Eric:  Introducing of islands of data that I don't trust.  No force will stop people from stopping RDF used as now.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Introducing of islands of data that I don't trust. No force will stop people from stopping RDF used as now.

16:00:13 <ScottB> … semantics entails new use cans but the complexity doesn't motivate use.

… semantics entails new use cans but the complexity doesn't motivate use.

16:00:24 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

16:00:41 <ScottB> … I don't seem context as being marketable.

… I don't seem context as being marketable.

16:00:53 <ScottB> Pat:  It's just one new RDF relation.

Patrick Hayes: It's just one new RDF relation.

16:01:28 <ScottB> Sandro:  Everyone in  a given group could give a context.

Sandro Hawke: Everyone in a given group could give a context.

16:01:51 <ScottB> Eric:  Adding contexts gets too complicated.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Adding contexts gets too complicated.

16:02:24 <Guus> Pat: more than 1 context probably means union (not intersection)

Patrick Hayes: more than 1 context probably means union (not intersection) [ Scribe Assist by Guus Schreiber ]

16:02:45 <ScottB> … many people want to share terms,  there is a transitive connection.  Two predicates written by different people and a third connects them.

… many people want to share terms, there is a transitive connection. Two predicates written by different people and a third connects them.

16:03:50 <ScottB> Ted:   A wrong word meaning can be wrapped.  Code can swap it out.

Ted Thibodeau: A wrong word meaning can be wrapped. Code can swap it out.

16:04:28 <ScottB> Sandro: this doesn't solve change over time by itself.

Sandro Hawke: this doesn't solve change over time by itself.

16:05:22 <ScottB> Pat:  Change over time can be described as an updating of a concept.  The old terminology continues in use but is updated.

Patrick Hayes: Change over time can be described as an updating of a concept. The old terminology continues in use but is updated.

16:05:25 <Zakim> -zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2

16:05:41 <ScottB> … all you have to do is invent a context and insert old stuff.

… all you have to do is invent a context and insert old stuff.

16:06:20 <ScottB> Sandro:  How is this different from changing the URI to point to new data.

Sandro Hawke: How is this different from changing the URI to point to new data.

16:06:59 <sandro> zakim, who is here?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is here?

16:06:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, davidwood, ScottB, MacTed, EricP, Sandro, Tom_Baker, AlexHall, ??P27, pfps, PatH, pfps.a

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, davidwood, ScottB, MacTed, EricP, Sandro, Tom_Baker, AlexHall, ??P27, pfps, PatH, pfps.a

16:07:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see PatH, pfps, Souri, mischat, tbaker, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, Guus, gavinc, ScottB, MacTed, danbri, davidwood, manu, NickH, manu1, yvesr_, trackbot, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see PatH, pfps, Souri, mischat, tbaker, AlexHall, RRSAgent, Zakim, Guus, gavinc, ScottB, MacTed, danbri, davidwood, manu, NickH, manu1, yvesr_, trackbot, sandro, ericP

16:07:14 <ScottB> Eric:  If the graph is sealed,  a snapshot is in order.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: If the graph is sealed, a snapshot is in order.

16:07:32 <ScottB> … we

… we

16:07:59 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

16:08:15 <ScottB> Pat:  No one is saying you have to stop what you are doing.

Patrick Hayes: No one is saying you have to stop what you are doing.

16:08:29 <ScottB> … mends some things that are currently broken.

… mends some things that are currently broken.

16:09:08 <Guus> q+

Guus Schreiber: q+

16:09:11 <ScottB> Sandro:  If you want to say that two graphs can be merged using this context.   It means it can't be done otherwise.

Sandro Hawke: If you want to say that two graphs can be merged using this context. It means it can't be done otherwise.

16:09:32 <ScottB> … seems like it can't be otherwise.

… seems like it can't be otherwise.

16:10:01 <ScottB> Pat:   the current RDF semantics are the default.

Patrick Hayes: the current RDF semantics are the default.

16:10:38 <ScottB> … if you assert in the context, you are being careful.  Otherwise URI's are just URI's.

… if you assert in the context, you are being careful. Otherwise URI's are just URI's.

16:11:24 <ScottB> Eric: What it does is it takes the private, illegal formats are being brought into a set of rules where they are.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: What it does is it takes the private, illegal formats are being brought into a set of rules where they are.

16:11:27 <sandro> sandro: IF it's stated clearly enough that rdf:inherits is a way to OPT OUT of the global hypothesis, then I think this is an okay experment, and harmless.

Sandro Hawke: IF it's stated clearly enough that rdf:inherits is a way to OPT OUT of the global hypothesis, then I think this is an okay experment, and harmless. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:11:29 <ScottB> ... legal.

... legal.

16:12:07 <ScottB> Pat:  It lets inferior uses into the public.

Patrick Hayes: It lets inferior uses into the public.

16:12:10 <sandro> sandro: So this is a sort of Amnesty proposal.

Sandro Hawke: So this is a sort of Amnesty proposal. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:13:08 <ScottB> Sandro:  I'm ok with this as long as RDF inheritance as a way to opt out is clear.

Sandro Hawke: I'm ok with this as long as RDF inheritance as a way to opt out is clear.

16:14:17 <sandro> sandro: So this doesn't really solve the owl:sameAs problem.....

Sandro Hawke: So this doesn't really solve the owl:sameAs problem..... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:14:20 <ScottB> … (correction) the default is a way to opt out of the RDF inheritance.

… (correction) the default is a way to opt out of the RDF inheritance.

16:14:52 <ScottB> David:  what should the default be.

David Wood: what should the default be.

16:15:25 <ScottB> Sandro:  the namespace document needs to opt in.

Sandro Hawke: the namespace document needs to opt in.

16:15:50 <ScottB> Eric:   updating the namespace documents is onerous.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: updating the namespace documents is onerous.

16:16:20 <ScottB> David:  there will still be unintentional differences.

David Wood: there will still be unintentional differences.

16:17:26 <Zakim> -??P27

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P27

16:17:27 <ScottB> Zakim, who is here

Zakim, who is here

16:17:27 <Zakim> ScottB, you need to end that query with '?'

Zakim IRC Bot: ScottB, you need to end that query with '?'

16:17:35 <Zakim> -davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood

16:17:37 <Zakim> -PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH

16:17:38 <sandro> sandro: (switching sides)  There's a strong case to be made that people who really mean their RDF, and really read the ontology documentaiton, might opt into that.

Sandro Hawke: (switching sides) There's a strong case to be made that people who really mean their RDF, and really read the ontology documentaiton, might opt into that. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:17:39 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

16:17:43 <Zakim> -EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP

16:17:44 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

16:17:45 <Zakim> -AlexHall

Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall

16:18:06 <davidwood> I don't think *anyone* doesn't mean their RDF.

David Wood: I don't think *anyone* doesn't mean their RDF.

16:18:15 <MacTed> and then... the ontology on which they based their RDF gets redefined.

Ted Thibodeau: and then... the ontology on which they based their RDF gets redefined.

16:18:22 <MacTed> uh oh!

Ted Thibodeau: uh oh!

16:18:30 <davidwood> Some people just make bad RDF - by my (or others) definition.

David Wood: Some people just make bad RDF - by my (or others) definition.

16:19:07 <ScottB> rrsagent, generate the minutes

rrsagent, generate the minutes

16:19:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-rdf-wg-minutes.html ScottB

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-rdf-wg-minutes.html ScottB

16:21:20 <ScottB> rrsagent, publish the minutes

rrsagent, publish the minutes

16:21:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-rdf-wg-minutes.html ScottB

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/04/18-rdf-wg-minutes.html ScottB

16:25:00 <ScottB> rrsagent, make logs public

rrsagent, make logs public



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This revision (#1) generated 2012-04-18 16:39:26 UTC by 'sbauer2', comments: "I removed a couple of lines that the parser didn't recognize that were logins for Tony(me), pfps(Peter) and Tom_Baker(Thomas) It didn't affect the attendee list. Corrected a typo."