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16:00:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/22-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/22-rdf-wg-irc ←
16:00:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
16:00:45 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 ←
16:00:45 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now ←
16:00:46 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
16:00:46 <trackbot> Date: 22 February 2012
16:00:57 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
16:00:57 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS ←
16:00:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, cgreer, Arnaud, gavinc, swh, AndyS, mischat, Guus, LeeF, MacTed, danbri, AndyS1, ivan, NickH, mdmdm, manu1, davidwood, manu, yvesr, trackbot, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, cgreer, Arnaud, gavinc, swh, AndyS, mischat, Guus, LeeF, MacTed, danbri, AndyS1, ivan, NickH, mdmdm, manu1, davidwood, manu, yvesr, trackbot, sandro, ericP ←
16:01:06 <swh> Zakim, who's on the phone?
Steve Harris: Zakim, who's on the phone? ←
16:01:06 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, swh
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, swh ←
16:01:09 <gavinc> Zakim, this is 73394
Gavin Carothers: Zakim, this is 73394 ←
16:01:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, cgreer, Arnaud, gavinc, swh, AndyS, mischat, Guus, LeeF, MacTed, danbri, AndyS1, ivan, NickH, mdmdm, manu1, davidwood, manu, yvesr, trackbot, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, cgreer, Arnaud, gavinc, swh, AndyS, mischat, Guus, LeeF, MacTed, danbri, AndyS1, ivan, NickH, mdmdm, manu1, davidwood, manu, yvesr, trackbot, sandro, ericP ←
16:01:14 <Zakim> ok, gavinc; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, gavinc; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM ←
16:01:19 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
16:01:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, Sandro, [IPcaller], gavinc, Arnaud, +1.949.567.aaaa, OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, Sandro, [IPcaller], gavinc, Arnaud, +1.949.567.aaaa, OpenLink_Software ←
16:01:23 <Zakim> + +1.707.318.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.707.318.aabb ←
16:01:29 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me ←
16:01:31 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
16:01:32 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
16:01:36 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
16:01:37 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
16:01:40 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
16:01:40 <cgreer> zakim, aabb is me
Charles Greer: zakim, aabb is me ←
16:01:45 <Zakim> +cgreer; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cgreer; got it ←
16:02:08 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here? ←
16:02:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, Sandro, AndyS, gavinc, Arnaud, +1.949.567.aaaa, MacTed (muted), cgreer
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, Sandro, AndyS, gavinc, Arnaud, +1.949.567.aaaa, MacTed (muted), cgreer ←
16:02:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see AZ, FabGandon, Zakim, RRSAgent, cgreer, Arnaud, gavinc, swh, AndyS, mischat, Guus, LeeF, MacTed, danbri, AndyS1, ivan, NickH, mdmdm, manu1, davidwood, manu, yvesr,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see AZ, FabGandon, Zakim, RRSAgent, cgreer, Arnaud, gavinc, swh, AndyS, mischat, Guus, LeeF, MacTed, danbri, AndyS1, ivan, NickH, mdmdm, manu1, davidwood, manu, yvesr, ←
16:02:14 <Zakim> ... trackbot, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot, sandro, ericP ←
16:02:24 <danbri> (regrets from me, sorry!)
Dan Brickley: (regrets from me, sorry!) ←
16:02:51 <Zakim> +David_Wood
Zakim IRC Bot: +David_Wood ←
16:02:56 <Zakim> +FabGandon
Zakim IRC Bot: +FabGandon ←
16:03:24 <cgreer> area code 949
Charles Greer: area code 949 ←
16:03:28 <swh> Zakim, aaaa is me
Steve Harris: Zakim, aaaa is me ←
16:03:29 <Zakim> +swh; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +swh; got it ←
16:03:37 <Zakim> +AlexHall
Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall ←
16:03:54 <Zakim> +??P7
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P7 ←
16:03:54 <sandro> bummer, danbri, but thanks for the nice perspective email.
Sandro Hawke: bummer, danbri, but thanks for the nice perspective email. ←
16:04:30 <AZ> Zakim, ??P7 is me
Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, ??P7 is me ←
16:04:31 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it ←
16:05:16 <zwu2> zakim, code?
16:05:16 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2 ←
16:05:16 <Guus> Nick: will you be able to scribe?
Nicholas Humfrey: will you be able to scribe? [ Scribe Assist by Guus Schreiber ] ←
16:05:38 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
16:05:38 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
16:05:40 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
16:05:51 <MacTed> 11:05:14 *** NickH has been idle 772 minutes
Scribe problem: the name '11' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Dickson Lukose Scott Bauer Jeremy Carroll Jan Wielemaker Kiu Ching Chieh Matteo Brunati Patrick Hayes Jean-François Baget Manu Sporny Nicholas Humfrey Ivan Herman David Wood Guus Schreiber Gavin Carothers Zhe Wu Andy Seaborne Alex Hall Richard Cyganiak Steve Harris Axel Polleres Michael Hausenblas Gaoussou CAMARA Trackbot IRC Bot Antoine Zimmermann Christopher Matheus Olivier Corby Pierre-Antoine Champin Mouhamadou THIAM Sandro Hawke Nathan Rixham Zakim IRC Bot Eric Prud'hommeaux Lee Feigenbaum Fabien Gandon Arnaud Le Hors Yves Raimond Souripriya Das William Waites Mohamed ZERGAOUI Thomas Steiner RRSAgent IRC Bot Kingsley Idehen Dan Brickley Adrien BASSE Charles Greer Ted Thibodeau Ivan Mikhailov . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.
Unknown 11: 05:14 *** NickH has been idle 772 minutes [ Scribe Assist by Ted Thibodeau ] ←
16:05:51 <MacTed> I fear it falls to me...
Ted Thibodeau: I fear it falls to me... ←
16:05:55 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
16:05:55 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
16:07:53 <MacTed> PROPOSED: accept minutes of 15-Feb, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-15
PROPOSED: accept minutes of 15-Feb, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-15 ←
16:08:11 <MacTed> RESOLVED: accept minutes of 15-Feb, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-15
RESOLVED: accept minutes of 15-Feb, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-15 ←
16:08:23 <MacTed> scribenick: MacTed
(Scribe set to Ted Thibodeau)
16:08:56 <Zakim> +zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2 ←
16:08:57 <MacTed> TOPIC: open action item review, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
16:09:01 <gavinc> ericP sent an email claiming victory
Gavin Carothers: ericP sent an email claiming victory ←
16:09:15 <MacTed> action-147?
16:09:15 <trackbot> ACTION-147 -- Eric Prud'hommeaux to propose by next week text that replaces section 4.3 -- due 2012-02-22 -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-147 -- Eric Prud'hommeaux to propose by next week text that replaces section 4.3 -- due 2012-02-22 -- OPEN ←
16:09:15 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/147
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/147 ←
16:09:22 <davidwood> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes
David Wood: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes ←
16:09:37 <davidwood> EricP: I need to slightly correct the proposal: the example of %-escaping has a \'d "-" in an IRI. I'll strike that when I no longer need to sit in judgement of my fellow man (jury duty).
Eric Prud'hommeaux: I need to slightly correct the proposal: the example of %-escaping has a \'d "-" in an IRI. I'll strike that when I no longer need to sit in judgement of my fellow man (jury duty). [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
16:09:43 <gavinc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-strings vs http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes
Gavin Carothers: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-strings vs http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes ←
16:11:46 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
16:11:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, Sandro, AndyS, gavinc, Arnaud (muted), swh, MacTed, cgreer, David_Wood, FabGandon, AlexHall, AZ, Ivan, zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, Sandro, AndyS, gavinc, Arnaud (muted), swh, MacTed, cgreer, David_Wood, FabGandon, AlexHall, AZ, Ivan, zwu2 ←
16:11:58 <davidwood> zakim, who is talking?
David Wood: zakim, who is talking? ←
16:12:09 <Zakim> davidwood, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (52%), MacTed (17%), Ivan (17%)
Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (52%), MacTed (17%), Ivan (17%) ←
16:12:24 <AZ> Pat sent regrets yes
Antoine Zimmermann: Pat sent regrets yes ←
16:12:33 <gavinc> PatH, Regrets. I have to go give some talks at a local school.
Gavin Carothers: PatH, Regrets. I have to go give some talks at a local school. ←
16:13:48 <MacTed> TOPIC: RDF-ISSUE-83 (HTML-rel-meta): RDF/XML: Incorrect reference for use of HTML rel="meta" [RDF General]
16:13:52 <MacTed> issue-83?
16:13:52 <trackbot> ISSUE-83 -- RDF/XML: Incorrect reference for use of HTML rel="meta" -- raised
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-83 -- RDF/XML: Incorrect reference for use of HTML rel="meta" -- raised ←
16:13:52 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/83
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/83 ←
16:14:17 <MacTed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Feb/0092.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Feb/0092.html ←
16:16:19 <MacTed> ivan: issue should be retargeted against Primer
Ivan Herman: issue should be retargeted against Primer ←
16:17:20 <AlexHall> eric sent regrets
Alex Hall: eric sent regrets ←
16:17:36 <MacTed> TOPIC: Named Graphs semantics
16:17:52 <gavinc> err, ericP has jury duty
Gavin Carothers: err, ericP has jury duty ←
16:18:07 <MacTed> starting from Pat Hayes' message and subsequent thread, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Feb/0094.html
starting from Pat Hayes' message and subsequent thread, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Feb/0094.html ←
16:20:04 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
16:20:12 <gavinc> + vs . according to PatH "Suppose we allow the terminal dot of a triple to be written as a plus sign, to mean that this triple is being interpreted as depending on its graph context, ie it is really a quad with the graph name as its contextual parameter. Call this a contextual triple and say that the graph is then a context. Contexts are involved in the truth of the triples they contain, so they are quad-graphs in disguise. Then two graphs can be merged just when (
Gavin Carothers: + vs . according to PatH "Suppose we allow the terminal dot of a triple to be written as a plus sign, to mean that this triple is being interpreted as depending on its graph context, ie it is really a quad with the graph name as its contextual parameter. Call this a contextual triple and say that the graph is then a context. Contexts are involved in the truth of the triples they contain, so they are quad-graphs in disguise. Then two graphs can be merged just when ( ←
16:20:14 <gavinc> a) neither is a context (Ie they are normal RDF graphs) or (b) they are the same context (ie have the same graph label.)"
Gavin Carothers: a) neither is a context (Ie they are normal RDF graphs) or (b) they are the same context (ie have the same graph label.)" ←
16:20:21 <MacTed> ... group effort to summarize Pat's proposal and confirm understanding thereof ...
... group effort to summarize Pat's proposal and confirm understanding thereof ... ←
16:20:34 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
16:22:31 <MacTed> ... consensus seems to be that typical current usage of "." is what Pat has proposed for "+" ...
... consensus seems to be that typical current usage of "." is what Pat has proposed for "+" ... ←
16:23:22 <MacTed> ... goal seems to be getting a hint of the cost of merging differently contextualized graphs ...
... goal seems to be getting a hint of the cost of merging differently contextualized graphs ... ←
16:24:27 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
16:24:35 <ivan> ack sandro
Ivan Herman: ack sandro ←
16:24:37 <MacTed> guus proposes straw poll: who thinks it would be useful to add syntax for this, at this time?
guus proposes straw poll: who thinks it would be acceptable to add syntax for this, at this time? ←
16:25:05 <MacTed> s/useful/acceptable/
16:25:12 <MacTed> sandro: syntax addition is needed, perhaps not the current proposal
Sandro Hawke: syntax addition is needed, perhaps not the current proposal ←
16:25:12 <ivan> ack AndyS
Ivan Herman: ack AndyS ←
16:25:53 <MacTed> AndyS: if community perceives need for change, they'll pick up on the syntax. doesn't seem that syntax change will drive change well.
Andy Seaborne: if community perceives need for change, they'll pick up on the syntax. doesn't seem that syntax change will drive change well. ←
16:26:10 <zwu2> +1 to AndyS
16:26:32 <MacTed> Guus: consensus is it's worth consideration.
Guus Schreiber: consensus is it's worth consideration. ←
16:26:56 <gavinc> +q
Gavin Carothers: +q ←
16:27:16 <MacTed> sandro: number of things that are truly immutable is so small as to be uninteresting
Sandro Hawke: number of things that are truly immutable is so small as to be uninteresting ←
16:27:37 <MacTed> ... need to know the context for virtually everything, it seems
... need to know the context for virtually everything, it seems ←
16:27:57 <davidwood> Real world usage will continue to mix the '+' and '.' cases, so we need to be careful in defining the default case. I actually *prefer* to change the default case to being contextual.
David Wood: Real world usage will continue to mix the '+' and '.' cases, so we need to be careful in defining the default case. I actually *prefer* to change the default case to being contextual. ←
16:28:04 <AndyS> ack gavinc
Andy Seaborne: ack gavinc ←
16:28:09 <MacTed> gavinc: distinction is needed between "statements which are near universally save to merge" and "statements which are likely to cause trouble if merged"
Gavin Carothers: distinction is needed between "statements which are near universally safe to merge" and "statements which are likely to cause trouble if merged" ←
16:28:25 <MacTed> s/save/safe/
16:28:29 <zwu2> +1 to davidwood, I prefer to contexualize the default case
Zhe Wu: +1 to davidwood, I prefer to contexualize the default case ←
16:28:36 <davidwood> q+
David Wood: q+ ←
16:29:38 <MacTed> AndyS: Pat seems to be saying, "in the current theory, you can always merge statements." but does that respect common practice?
Andy Seaborne: Pat seems to be saying, "in the current theory, you can always merge statements." but does that respect common practice? ←
16:29:57 <MacTed> AndyS: the graph that holds it seems to be an important aspect of a triple
Andy Seaborne: the graph that holds it seems to be an important aspect of a triple ←
16:30:14 <ivan> ack davidwood
Ivan Herman: ack davidwood ←
16:30:19 <Guus> ack davidwood
Guus Schreiber: ack davidwood ←
16:30:44 <MacTed> davidwood: Real world usage will continue to mix the '+' and '.' cases, so we need to be careful in defining the default case.
David Wood: Real world usage will continue to mix the '+' and '.' cases, so we need to be careful in defining the default case. ←
16:30:45 <MacTed> davidwood: I think I actually *prefer* to change the default case to being contextual.
David Wood: I think I actually *prefer* to change the default case to being contextual. ←
16:30:58 <Guus> ack sandro
Guus Schreiber: ack sandro ←
16:31:01 <ivan> ack sandro
Ivan Herman: ack sandro ←
16:31:23 <MacTed> sandro: the person making the statement often doesn't think it's contextual, but changed perspective can change that perception...
Sandro Hawke: the person making the statement often doesn't think it's contextual, but changed perspective can change that perception... ←
16:31:24 <davidwood> +1 to Sandro
David Wood: +1 to Sandro ←
16:31:32 <zwu2> +1
16:32:13 <MacTed> ... big change to RDF theory, but probably not big change to RDF practice ...
... big change to RDF theory, but probably not big change to RDF practice ... ←
16:33:07 <AlexHall> +1 to the difference between theory and practice. people are already treating it as contextual.
Alex Hall: +1 to the difference between theory and practice. people are already treating it as contextual. ←
16:33:32 <AndyS> It's entailment between graphs that relies on the universal context.
Andy Seaborne: It's entailment between graphs that relies on the universal context. ←
16:33:39 <MacTed> straw poll: "extant RDF should generally be considered to be contextual."
straw poll: "extant RDF should generally be considered to be contextual." ←
16:33:44 <AlexHall> even when the context is just "the current state of my SPARQL store"
Alex Hall: even when the context is just "the current state of my SPARQL store" ←
16:34:07 <AndyS> ... could phase as "gather some graphs together, then do current RDF stuff"
Andy Seaborne: ... could phase as "gather some graphs together, then do current RDF stuff" ←
16:34:40 <Guus> +1
Guus Schreiber: +1 ←
16:34:41 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
16:34:45 <MacTed> +1
+1 ←
16:34:45 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
16:34:47 <zwu2> +1
16:34:51 <AlexHall> +1
16:35:30 <AndyS> caveat the "contextual" in a maybe-weak, non technical sense, maybe "scoped"
Andy Seaborne: caveat the "contextual" in a maybe-weak, non technical sense, maybe "scoped" ←
16:35:47 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
16:35:53 <swh> +1 to AndyS
Steve Harris: +1 to AndyS ←
16:35:56 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
16:36:03 <swh> I think the question is way to vague / broad
Steve Harris: I think the question is way to vague / broad ←
16:36:09 <AZ> +1 but I think everything is contextual, HTML pages too
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 but I think everything is contextual, HTML pages too ←
16:36:10 <davidwood> Yes, AndyS has a good point
David Wood: Yes, AndyS has a good point ←
16:36:22 <MacTed> ... consensus is "yes"
... consensus is "yes" ←
16:36:39 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:36:50 <gavinc> In other words at least from my head "Merging RDF graphs while easier then merging SQL statements, is still hard"
Gavin Carothers: In other words at least from my head "Merging RDF graphs while easier then merging SQL statements, is still hard" ←
16:37:19 <MacTed> ivan: would like to understand where this leads us. 2 lines of discussion about named graphs, but where do they meet?
Ivan Herman: would like to understand where this leads us. 2 lines of discussion about named graphs, but where do they meet? ←
16:37:19 <AlexHall> merging graphs is easy. deciding whether it's ok to merge them is hard :-)
Alex Hall: merging graphs is easy. deciding whether it's ok to merge them is hard :-) ←
16:37:27 <gavinc> AlexHall, yes that +1
Gavin Carothers: AlexHall, yes that +1 ←
16:37:51 <zwu2> we can leave the decision when to merge graphs to end users :)
Zhe Wu: we can leave the decision when to merge graphs to end users :) ←
16:37:58 <MacTed> ivan: quad discussion around Pat's proposal, very interesting, came from Pat's action regarding time
Ivan Herman: quad discussion around Pat's proposal, very interesting, came from Pat's action regarding time ←
16:38:14 <gavinc> zwu2, current semantics say it's always easy and safe
Gavin Carothers: zwu2, current semantics say it's always easy and safe ←
16:38:42 <MacTed> ivan: also typing discussion, from sandro et al
Ivan Herman: also typing discussion, from sandro et al ←
16:38:49 <MacTed> sandro: typing consideration was one of several proposed solutions
Sandro Hawke: typing consideration was one of several proposed solutions ←
16:39:02 <zwu2> gavinc, I thought current semantics apply to graphs (of triples), not quads
Zhe Wu: gavinc, I thought current semantics apply to graphs (of triples), not quads ←
16:39:46 <MacTed> sandro: has been concentrating on N3-style solution and [other]; Pat seems to be proposing a 6th solution
Sandro Hawke: has been concentrating on N3-style solution and [other]; Pat seems to be proposing a 6th solution ←
16:40:07 <MacTed> Guus: these discussions are different, but don't seem incompatible
Guus Schreiber: these discussions are different, but don't seem incompatible ←
16:40:26 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:40:26 <MacTed> Guus: typing the graph container is something that couldn't (and shouldn't) show up in semantics doc
Guus Schreiber: typing the graph container is something that couldn't (and shouldn't) show up in semantics doc ←
16:41:07 <MacTed> Guus: one mechanism *may* be sufficient for use community
Guus Schreiber: one mechanism *may* be sufficient for use community ←
16:42:50 <MacTed> ivan: partially disagreeing with Sandro's "6th solution" characterization of Pat's message. concerned about new mechanism coming into picture several months into work...
Ivan Herman: partially disagreeing with Sandro's "6th solution" characterization of Pat's message. concerned about new mechanism coming into picture several months into work... ←
16:43:49 <MacTed> sandro: named graphs has been a "lump in the carpet" since the early 90s. time dependence is also a big issue, which has now been raised with ties to named graphs.
Sandro Hawke: named graphs has been a "lump in the carpet" since the early 90s. time dependence is also a big issue, which has now been raised with ties to named graphs. ←
16:44:21 <MacTed> ivan: where is line between scope of this WG and "future efforts"?
Ivan Herman: where is line between scope of this WG and "future efforts"? ←
16:44:23 <davidwood> q+ to play Devil's advocate
David Wood: q+ to play Devil's advocate ←
16:44:38 <Guus> ack ivan
Guus Schreiber: ack ivan ←
16:44:38 <ivan> ack ivan
Ivan Herman: ack ivan ←
16:44:44 <ivan> ack davidwood
Ivan Herman: ack davidwood ←
16:44:44 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to play Devil's advocate
Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to play Devil's advocate ←
16:44:54 <MacTed> sandro: may be time to review "other work" in Charter
Sandro Hawke: may be time to review "other work" in Charter ←
16:45:14 <MacTed> davidwood: 2 chartered items that relate: named graphs and fixing semantics
David Wood: 2 chartered items that relate: named graphs and fixing semantics ←
16:45:52 <MacTed> davidwood: we seem to have made progress with these discussions. I'm inclined to let it continue a couple weeks longer.
David Wood: we seem to have made progress with these discussions. I'm inclined to let it continue a couple weeks longer. ←
16:46:54 <MacTed> Guus: further discussion requires Pat's presence...
Guus Schreiber: further discussion requires Pat's presence... ←
16:48:05 <MacTed> sandro: maybe consensus feedback to Pat, "what's important about context?" may be helpful for progress
Sandro Hawke: maybe consensus feedback to Pat, "what's important about context?" may be helpful for progress ←
16:48:23 <MacTed> davidwood: objections have been made to "context" as an overused word...
David Wood: objections have been made to "context" as an overused word... ←
16:49:20 <MacTed> davidwood: concern is that leaving separation of contextual/time-varying from non-contextual/time-invariant to publisher, is likely to be wrong
David Wood: concern is that leaving separation of contextual/time-varying from non-contextual/time-invariant to publisher, is likely to be wrong ←
16:50:04 <MacTed> sandro: agreement... best practice may be to provide a "period of applicability" for a given data set, e.g., dc:temporal metadata
Sandro Hawke: agreement... best practice may be to provide a "period of applicability" for a given data set, e.g., dc:temporal metadata ←
16:51:11 <MacTed> ivan: we may want to put aside the whole issue of time, for the time being...
Ivan Herman: we may want to put aside the whole issue of time, for the time being... ←
16:52:00 <MacTed> ivan: in practice, in practical usage, if I have a way to properly describe "named graphs," I can describe a bunch of triples and have a vocab to describe the time-related things... that may be enough, even if not terribly precise
Ivan Herman: in practice, in practical usage, if I have a way to properly describe "named graphs," I can describe a bunch of triples and have a vocab to describe the time-related things... that may be enough, even if not terribly precise ←
16:52:41 <MacTed> ivan: understood action on Pat to be "come up with vocabulary that would be enough for gathering sufficient time info for practical purposes"
Ivan Herman: understood action on Pat to be "come up with vocabulary that would be enough for gathering sufficient time info for practical purposes" ←
16:53:10 <MacTed> sandro: practical question is whether we can satisfy multi-graph uses without addressing time question
Sandro Hawke: practical question is whether we can satisfy multi-graph uses without addressing time question ←
16:53:32 <MacTed> ivan: ... without having a time ontology
Ivan Herman: ... without having a time ontology ←
16:54:33 <MacTed> ... so first pursue use cases that don't require time dependence solution
... so first pursue use cases that don't require time dependence solution ←
16:56:37 <AndyS> Hmm - create islands where current pure semantics are true. Multiverse!
Andy Seaborne: Hmm - create islands where current pure semantics are true. Multiverse! ←
16:56:52 <MacTed> (...scribe joins discussion and fails to summarize...)
(...scribe joins discussion and fails to summarize...) ←
16:58:24 <MacTed> AndyS: perhaps we can do both: frame RDF semantics so there are "islands" of graphs where current "pure" semantics are true, free merging should work; then merging "islands" requires contextual info about those islands
Andy Seaborne: perhaps we can do both: frame RDF semantics so there are "islands" of graphs where current "pure" semantics are true, free merging should work; then merging "islands" requires contextual info about those islands ←
16:58:43 <AlexHall> sounds like a research project to me :-)
Alex Hall: sounds like a research project to me :-) ←
17:00:16 <AZ> q+
Antoine Zimmermann: q+ ←
17:00:32 <MacTed> sandro: "islands" seem to be larger graphs, which are collections of subgraphs
Sandro Hawke: "islands" seem to be larger graphs, which are collections of subgraphs ←
17:00:47 <AZ> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/RDF-Datasets-Proposal
Antoine Zimmermann: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/RDF-Datasets-Proposal ←
17:00:58 <MacTed> AZ: makes me think of the propsal about semantics of data sets
Antoine Zimmermann: makes me think of the propsal about semantics of data sets ←
17:01:52 <Zakim> +Sandro.a
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro.a ←
17:02:01 <MacTed> Zakim, dial ericP-mobile
Zakim, dial ericP-mobile ←
17:02:03 <Zakim> ok, MacTed; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, MacTed; the call is being made ←
17:02:06 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
17:02:09 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
17:02:34 <MacTed> AZ: (summarizes proposal, draws connections between it and "islands" terminology)
Antoine Zimmermann: (summarizes proposal, draws connections between it and "islands" terminology) ←
17:03:14 <MacTed> AndyS: asks for data set semantics to be mapped to a current use case
Andy Seaborne: asks for data set semantics to be mapped to a current use case ←
17:03:36 <sandro> +1 Andy: AZ, please illustrate your proposal by showing how to address (some of) the use cases with it.
Sandro Hawke: +1 Andy: AZ, please illustrate your proposal by showing how to address (some of) the use cases with it. ←
17:04:08 <MacTed> tsunami merges all graphs
... ←
17:04:25 <MacTed> s/tsunami merges all graphs/.../
17:05:05 <MacTed> AZ: these semantics do not directly address all use cases, but at least gives framework by which to do so...
Antoine Zimmermann: these semantics do not directly address all use cases, but at least gives framework by which to do so... ←
17:05:43 <MacTed> action on AZ to illustrate how http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/RDF-Datasets-Proposal maps to current use cases
action on AZ to illustrate how http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/RDF-Datasets-Proposal maps to current use cases ←
17:05:43 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - on
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - on ←
17:06:07 <AlexHall> leave out the 'on'
Alex Hall: leave out the 'on' ←
17:06:36 <MacTed> action on zimmerma to illustrate how http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/RDF-Datasets-Proposal maps to current use cases
action on zimmerma to illustrate how http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/RDF-Datasets-Proposal maps to current use cases ←
17:06:36 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - on
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - on ←
17:06:41 <AndyS> Action AndyS: Write email about the "islands" idea
Andy Seaborne: Action AndyS: Write email about the "islands" idea ←
17:06:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-148 - Write email about the "islands" idea [on Andy Seaborne - due 2012-02-29].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-148 - Write email about the "islands" idea [on Andy Seaborne - due 2012-02-29]. ←
17:06:41 <AZ> azimmerm
Antoine Zimmermann: azimmerm ←
17:06:49 <MacTed> action zimmerma to illustrate how http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/RDF-Datasets-Proposal maps to current use cases
action zimmerma to illustrate how http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/RDF-Datasets-Proposal maps to current use cases ←
17:06:49 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - zimmerma
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - zimmerma ←
17:06:58 <MacTed> action azimmerm to illustrate how http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/RDF-Datasets-Proposal maps to current use cases
action azimmerm to illustrate how http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/RDF-Datasets-Proposal maps to current use cases ←
17:06:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-149 - Illustrate how http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/RDF-Datasets-Proposal maps to current use cases [on Antoine Zimmermann - due 2012-02-29].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-149 - Illustrate how http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/RDF-Datasets-Proposal maps to current use cases [on Antoine Zimmermann - due 2012-02-29]. ←
17:07:04 <gavinc> Azimmerm
Gavin Carothers: Azimmerm ←
17:09:07 <MacTed> Guus: seems we've made full progress there... ericP, can discuss action-147?
Guus Schreiber: seems we've made full progress there... ericP, can discuss ACTION-147? ←
17:09:52 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
17:10:14 <MacTed> ericP: summarizes/restates content of email to list... linked form http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/147
Eric Prud'hommeaux: summarizes/restates content of email to list... linked from http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/147 ←
17:10:18 <MacTed> s/form/from/
17:12:00 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
17:12:01 <MacTed> ... change to be made, further discussion for next week ...
... change to be made, further discussion for next week ... ←
17:12:22 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
17:12:23 <Zakim> -AlexHall
Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall ←
17:12:24 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
17:12:26 <Zakim> -swh
Zakim IRC Bot: -swh ←
17:12:27 <Zakim> -EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP ←
17:12:27 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
17:12:29 <Zakim> -Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus ←
17:12:34 <Zakim> -FabGandon
Zakim IRC Bot: -FabGandon ←
17:12:35 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
17:12:54 <Zakim> -cgreer
Zakim IRC Bot: -cgreer ←
17:13:04 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/manual.html
Gavin Carothers: http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/manual.html ←
17:13:13 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/panel/
Gavin Carothers: http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/panel/ ←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#1) generated 2012-02-22 17:15:42 UTC by 'tthibodeau', comments: None