15:53:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/18-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/18-rdf-wg-irc ←
15:53:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
15:54:01 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 ←
15:54:01 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes ←
15:54:02 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:54:02 <trackbot> Date: 18 January 2012
15:56:49 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started ←
15:56:56 <Zakim> +Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus ←
15:57:59 <zwu2> zakim, code?
15:57:59 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2 ←
15:58:35 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
15:58:42 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
15:58:42 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
15:58:44 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:58:44 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:59:24 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
Zakim IRC Bot: +mhausenblas ←
15:59:29 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me
Richard Cyganiak: zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me ←
15:59:29 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri; got it ←
16:00:04 <Zakim> +??P9
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P9 ←
16:00:12 <AndyS> zakim, ??P9 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P9 is me ←
16:00:12 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
16:00:29 <Zakim> + +1.603.438.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.438.aaaa ←
16:00:45 <zwu2> zakim, +1.603.438.aaaa is me
Zhe Wu: zakim, +1.603.438.aaaa is me ←
16:00:45 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2; got it ←
16:01:09 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
16:01:10 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
16:01:11 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
16:02:08 <zwu2> Scribe: zwu2
(Scribe set to Zhe Wu)
16:02:09 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here? ←
16:02:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, MacTed (muted), cygri, AndyS, zwu2, Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, MacTed (muted), cygri, AndyS, zwu2, Ivan ←
16:02:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see Scott_Bauer, zwu2, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, danbri, AndyS, MacTed, LeeF, cygri, mischat, ivan, manu1, mdmdm, davidwood, manu, trackbot, yvesr, NickH, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Scott_Bauer, zwu2, Zakim, RRSAgent, Guus, danbri, AndyS, MacTed, LeeF, cygri, mischat, ivan, manu1, mdmdm, davidwood, manu, trackbot, yvesr, NickH, sandro, ericP ←
16:02:42 <Zakim> +sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +sandro ←
16:03:12 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer
Zakim IRC Bot: +Scott_Bauer ←
16:03:45 <Zakim> +AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ ←
16:04:20 <Zakim> +LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF ←
16:04:20 <AZ> zakim, who is on the phone?
Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
16:04:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus, MacTed (muted), cygri, AndyS, zwu2, Ivan, sandro, Scott_Bauer, AZ, LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus, MacTed (muted), cygri, AndyS, zwu2, Ivan, sandro, Scott_Bauer, AZ, LeeF ←
16:04:50 <LeeF> I have to leave after 60 minutes.
Lee Feigenbaum: I have to leave after 60 minutes. ←
16:05:07 <zwu2> maybe we can finish in 40 minutes :)
maybe we can finish in 40 minutes :) ←
16:05:27 <AndyS> Ok - I can scribe the last part
Andy Seaborne: Ok - I can scribe the last part ←
16:05:38 <zwu2> thanks Andy!
thanks Andy! ←
16:05:58 <zwu2> topic: Admin
16:06:29 <zwu2> proposed: accept the minutes of the 11 Jan telecon http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-01-11
PROPOSED: accept the minutes of the 11 Jan telecon http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-01-11 ←
16:06:48 <zwu2> Resolved: accept the minutes of the 11 Jan telecon http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-01-11
RESOLVED: accept the minutes of the 11 Jan telecon http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-01-11 ←
16:06:51 <Zakim> +JeremyCarroll
Zakim IRC Bot: +JeremyCarroll ←
16:07:04 <Zakim> +gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc ←
16:07:05 <zwu2> topic: Action item review
16:07:31 <zwu2> guus: RDF primer
Guus Schreiber: RDF primer ←
16:08:00 <zwu2> guus: sando, 3 actions for you
Guus Schreiber: sandro, 3 actions for you ←
16:08:12 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
16:08:16 <zwu2> s/sando/sandro
16:09:10 <davidwood> Zakim, code?
David Wood: Zakim, code? ←
16:09:10 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), davidwood ←
16:09:18 <zwu2> guus: action 100
16:09:29 <zwu2> ... sandro has not reported back
... sandro has not reported back ←
16:09:45 <zwu2> guus: we will come back to it
Guus Schreiber: we will come back to it ←
16:09:47 <Zakim> +??P31
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P31 ←
16:09:53 <NickH> zakim, ??31 is me
Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, ??31 is me ←
16:09:53 <Zakim> sorry, NickH, I do not recognize a party named '??31'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, NickH, I do not recognize a party named '??31' ←
16:10:02 <NickH> zakim, ??P31 is me
Nicholas Humfrey: zakim, ??P31 is me ←
16:10:02 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it ←
16:10:06 <zwu2> action-117?
16:10:06 <trackbot> ACTION-117 -- Jeremy Carroll to check status of duration datatypes -- due 2011-11-16 -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-117 -- Jeremy Carroll to check status of duration datatypes -- due 2011-11-16 -- OPEN ←
16:10:06 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/117
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/117 ←
16:10:09 <NickH> Zakim, mute me
Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, mute me ←
16:10:09 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: NickH should now be muted ←
16:10:24 <zwu2> guus: suggest Jeremy to drop it
Guus Schreiber: suggest Jeremy to drop it ←
16:10:34 <zwu2> ... if we don't expect much progress from it
... if we don't expect much progress from it ←
16:11:06 <zwu2> ... we can re-assign also
... we can re-assign also ←
16:11:25 <gavinc> Zakim, who is making noise?
Gavin Carothers: Zakim, who is making noise? ←
16:11:36 <Zakim> gavinc, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (33%), zwu2 (57%), JeremyCarroll (44%)
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (33%), zwu2 (57%), JeremyCarroll (44%) ←
16:11:38 <zwu2> jeremy: the reason for this action is that duration datatypes were in a mess in RDF 1.0
Jeremy Carroll: the reason for this action is that duration datatypes were in a mess in RDF 1.0 ←
16:11:46 <Zakim> +bhyland1
Zakim IRC Bot: +bhyland1 ←
16:11:50 <zwu2> I just did. sorry
I just did. sorry ←
16:11:54 <davidwood> Zakim, bhyland is me
David Wood: Zakim, bhyland is me ←
16:11:54 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood; got it ←
16:12:25 <zwu2> guus: why don't we record an issue so we don't lose track of it.
Guus Schreiber: why don't we record an issue so we don't lose track of it. ←
16:12:45 <zwu2> cygri: you can re-assign it to me
Richard Cyganiak: you can re-assign it to me ←
16:12:53 <zwu2> jeremy: ok
Jeremy Carroll: ok ←
16:13:16 <zwu2> cygri: set the time frame in a month
Richard Cyganiak: set the time frame in a month ←
16:13:52 <cygri> this is related to ISSUE-66
Richard Cyganiak: this is related to ISSUE-66 ←
16:14:04 <zwu2> action-118?
16:14:04 <trackbot> ACTION-118 -- Jeremy Carroll to summarize issues relating to XSD canonicalization -- due 2011-11-16 -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-118 -- Jeremy Carroll to summarize issues relating to XSD canonicalization -- due 2011-11-16 -- OPEN ←
16:14:04 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/118
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/118 ←
16:14:33 <zwu2> jeremy: again, I don't have a realistic schedule at this moment
Jeremy Carroll: again, I don't have a realistic schedule at this moment ←
16:15:02 <cygri> ISSUE-13?
16:15:02 <trackbot> ISSUE-13 -- Review RDF XML Literals -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-13 -- Review RDF XML Literals -- open ←
16:15:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/13
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/13 ←
16:15:06 <zwu2> guus: we can generate an issue based on this action
Guus Schreiber: we can generate an issue based on this action ←
16:15:13 <zwu2> ... I will drop the action
... I will drop the action ←
16:15:50 <zwu2> action-129?
16:15:50 <trackbot> ACTION-129 -- Jeremy Carroll to review sandro's use cases -- due 2012-01-11 -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-129 -- Jeremy Carroll to review sandro's use cases -- due 2012-01-11 -- OPEN ←
16:15:50 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/129
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/129 ←
16:16:19 <zwu2> jeremy: I haven't done much
Jeremy Carroll: I haven't done much ←
16:16:50 <cygri> work in progress: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/XML_Literals
Richard Cyganiak: work in progress: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/XML_Literals ←
16:17:04 <zwu2> cygri: have done some work in wiki
Richard Cyganiak: have done some work in wiki ←
16:17:05 <JeremyCarroll> jeremy: I have looked at this and done what it is I will do, not much
Jeremy Carroll: I have looked at this and done what it is I will do, not much [ Scribe Assist by Jeremy Carroll ] ←
16:17:08 <zwu2> ... not quite ready
... not quite ready ←
16:17:18 <zwu2> ... take me another week to complete the last bits
... take me another week to complete the last bits ←
16:17:40 <gavinc> Charles
Gavin Carothers: Charles ←
16:17:48 <gavinc> Charles Greer
Gavin Carothers: Charles Greer ←
16:17:48 <zwu2> topic: RDFa LC
16:18:21 <zwu2> david: it is not clear what the meeting should focus on
David Wood: it is not clear what the meeting should focus on ←
16:18:32 <sandro> regrets for next three weeks due to WG F2F meetings
Sandro Hawke: regrets for next three weeks due to WG F2F meetings ←
16:18:43 <gavinc> These are PRE last call comments
Gavin Carothers: These are PRE last call comments ←
16:18:55 <zwu2> guus: david, can you summarize
Guus Schreiber: david, can you summarize ←
16:19:14 <zwu2> david, it is action 128, did charles send his review?
david, it is ACTION-128, did charles send his review? ←
16:19:32 <zwu2> ... since it is overdue, we should call it completed, I did send my comments to RDF WG
... since it is overdue, we should call it completed, I did send my comments to RDF WG ←
16:19:41 <zwu2> ... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Jan/0032.html
... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Jan/0032.html ←
16:20:27 <zwu2> ... my message focused on name of documents in RDFa
... my message focused on name of documents in RDFa ←
16:20:34 <zwu2> ... how they related to graphs
... how they related to graphs ←
16:20:57 <zwu2> ... I did not have significant problem with RDFa core itself
... I did not have significant problem with RDFa core itself ←
16:21:14 <zwu2> guus: did you send it to RDFa?
Guus Schreiber: did you send it to RDFa? ←
16:21:22 <zwu2> david: yes. it's due on 16th
David Wood: yes. it's due on 16th ←
16:21:31 <zwu2> ... ivan encouraged me to
... ivan encouraged me to ←
16:21:53 <zwu2> guus: for the record, could you put a pointer in our archive
Guus Schreiber: for the record, could you put a pointer in our archive ←
16:22:10 <zwu2> ... send a message and put a link in the action item
... send a message and put a link in the action item ←
16:22:25 <zwu2> guus: what do we do about Gavin's comments?
Guus Schreiber: what do we do about Gavin's comments? ←
16:22:49 <zwu2> gavin: talking to Andy and Eric, wrote the problems we saw
Gavin Carothers: talking to Andy and Eric, wrote the problems we saw ←
16:22:56 <zwu2> ... CURIE grammar
... CURIE grammar ←
16:23:23 <zwu2> ... most people intend to express with CURIE can be expressed using prefix name mechanisms
... most people intend to express with CURIE can be expressed using prefix name mechanisms ←
16:23:54 <zwu2> ... talked to a few RDFa implementers (they don't use CURIE syntax)
... talked to a few RDFa implementers (they don't use CURIE syntax) ←
16:24:15 <gavinc> don't use the EXACT CURIE syntax
Gavin Carothers: don't use the EXACT CURIE syntax ←
16:24:20 <zwu2> guus: I suggested send Gavin's comments to RDFa WG
Guus Schreiber: I suggested send Gavin's comments to RDFa WG ←
16:24:24 <davidwood> Closed and annotated action 128 with the link to my message to the RDFa WG: https://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/128
David Wood: Closed and annotated ACTION-128 with the link to my message to the RDFa WG: https://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/128 ←
16:24:52 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
16:25:07 <zwu2> guus: shall we record an action item?
Guus Schreiber: shall we record an action item? ←
16:25:16 <zwu2> ivan: RDFa WG schedule is the same time
Ivan Herman: RDFa WG schedule is the same time ←
16:25:28 <zwu2> action Gavin to send RDFa comments to RDFa WG
action Gavin to send RDFa comments to RDFa WG ←
16:25:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-131 - Send RDFa comments to RDFa WG [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-01-25].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-131 - Send RDFa comments to RDFa WG [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-01-25]. ←
16:25:59 <zwu2> guus: did a review of the RDFa primer
Guus Schreiber: did a review of the RDFa primer ←
16:26:12 <zwu2> ... will send it to RDFa WG
... will send it to RDFa WG ←
16:26:32 <zwu2> ivan: this does not have to go through LC
Ivan Herman: this does not have to go through LC ←
16:26:59 <zwu2> ivan: href is an HTML document
Ivan Herman: href is an HTML document ←
16:27:12 <JeremyCarroll> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Jan/0059.html concerning xsd canonicalization
Jeremy Carroll: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Jan/0059.html concerning xsd canonicalization ←
16:28:04 <zwu2> action guus: send Guus' comments to RDFa WG
action guus: send Guus' comments to RDFa WG ←
16:28:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-132 - Send Guus' comments to RDFa WG [on Guus Schreiber - due 2012-01-25].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-132 - Send Guus' comments to RDFa WG [on Guus Schreiber - due 2012-01-25]. ←
16:28:15 <zwu2> guus: I will do it today
Guus Schreiber: I will do it today ←
16:28:28 <zwu2> topic: RDF-ISSUE-82
16:28:35 <zwu2> guus: repeated graph iris
Guus Schreiber: repeated graph iris ←
16:28:39 <gavinc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2012Jan/0025.html sent top RDFa WG
Gavin Carothers: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2012Jan/0025.html sent top RDFa WG ←
16:28:39 <zwu2> issue-82?
16:28:39 <trackbot> ISSUE-82 -- How should repeated graph iri labels be handled in TriG -- raised
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-82 -- How should repeated graph iri labels be handled in TriG -- raised ←
16:28:39 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/82
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/82 ←
16:28:56 <zwu2> ... there appears to have strong consensus on option 2
... there appears to have strong consensus on option 2 ←
16:28:59 <zwu2> ... why don't we resolve it
... why don't we resolve it ←
16:29:19 <zwu2> gavin: I don't see any reason not to adopt it
Gavin Carothers: I don't see any reason not to adopt it ←
16:29:34 <sandro> -1
Sandro Hawke: -1 ←
16:29:35 <zwu2> ... happy to resolve it now
... happy to resolve it now ←
16:30:39 <LeeF> someone is beeping
Lee Feigenbaum: someone is beeping ←
16:30:39 <LeeF> :)
Lee Feigenbaum: :) ←
16:30:59 <davidwood> I would be happier to make some progress, even if it is an interim step that might be overcome if we decide not to use TriG.
David Wood: I would be happier to make some progress, even if it is an interim step that might be overcome if we decide not to use TriG. ←
16:31:10 <sandro> sandro: I don't think we should be settling things about TriG until we knownwhether Trig addresses our use cases.
Sandro Hawke: I don't think we should be settling things about TriG until we knownwhether Trig addresses our use cases. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:31:13 <zwu2> guus: suggest Gavin to write down refined text
Guus Schreiber: suggest Gavin to write down refined text ←
16:31:26 <zwu2> ... we should move forward
... we should move forward ←
16:31:40 <sandro> fine.
Sandro Hawke: fine. ←
16:31:42 <sandro> -0
Sandro Hawke: -0 ←
16:31:48 <zwu2> david: I don't see much harm in resolving this issue
David Wood: I don't see much harm in resolving this issue ←
16:32:13 <sandro> it means I don't like it, but I wont stand in the way
Sandro Hawke: it means I don't like it, but I wont stand in the way ←
16:32:15 <zwu2> gavin: it took us a year to reach the status of turtle, we only have a year left
Gavin Carothers: it took us a year to reach the status of turtle, we only have a year left ←
16:33:03 <sandro> which solution is he going with?
Sandro Hawke: which solution is he going with? ←
16:33:04 <zwu2> action: gavin to proposal final wording for issue-82
ACTION: gavin to proposal final wording for ISSUE-82 ←
16:33:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-133 - Proposal final wording for issue-82 [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-01-25].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-133 - Propose final wording for ISSUE-82 [on Gavin Carothers - due 2012-01-25]. ←
16:33:23 <zwu2> s/Proposal/Propose
16:33:35 <sandro> (yeah, I dont think 2 is right for some use cases, but well see when we get there.)
Sandro Hawke: (yeah, I dont think 2 is right for some use cases, but well see when we get there.) ←
16:33:35 <zwu2> topic: Named Graphs
16:33:45 <zwu2> guus: we have Sandro's use cases
Guus Schreiber: we have Sandro's use cases ←
16:33:57 <zwu2> ... today more examples came it
... today more examples came it ←
16:34:24 <zwu2> ... last week we had a meta strawpoll
... last week we had a meta strawpoll ←
16:34:32 <NickH> Test cases++
Nicholas Humfrey: Test cases++ ←
16:34:42 <zwu2> ... how do we move forward from here
... how do we move forward from here ←
16:35:13 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
16:35:14 <JeremyCarroll> q+
Jeremy Carroll: q+ ←
16:35:17 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
16:35:23 <zwu2> ... shall we use concrete examples as a way to move forward
... shall we use concrete examples as a way to move forward ←
16:35:33 <Guus> ack sandro
Guus Schreiber: ack sandro ←
16:35:49 <NickH> painful beeping
Nicholas Humfrey: painful beeping ←
16:35:52 <zwu2> sandro, there are beeps
sandro, there are beeps ←
16:36:47 <zwu2> sandro, are you suggesting focus on the use cases?
sandro, are you suggesting focus on the use cases? ←
16:36:48 <cygri> the use case i mentioned is just one of the many from the wiki: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28B_priority.29_Tracing_inference_results
Richard Cyganiak: the use case i mentioned is just one of the many from the wiki: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC#.28B_priority.29_Tracing_inference_results ←
16:37:04 <sandro> yes, a new page would be good
Sandro Hawke: yes, a new page would be good ←
16:37:11 <sandro> i've swamped, but really want to do it.
Sandro Hawke: i've swamped, but really want to do it. ←
16:37:30 <zwu2> cygri: may I ask why
Richard Cyganiak: may I ask why ←
16:37:34 <sandro> the old page is too long
Sandro Hawke: the old page is too long ←
16:37:44 <zwu2> ... what will be the difference between the new page and this old wiki
... what will be the difference between the new page and this old wiki ←
16:37:56 <AndyS> I'm confused -- Is it copying over existing UCs or creating new ones?
Andy Seaborne: I'm confused -- Is it copying over existing UCs or creating new ones? ←
16:38:17 <zwu2> cygri: I have spent quite some effort shaping that wiki page up
Richard Cyganiak: I have spent quite some effort shaping that wiki page up ←
16:38:40 <sandro> maybe "flagship" use cases, or something like that.
Sandro Hawke: maybe "flagship" use cases, or something like that. ←
16:39:03 <zwu2> david: the goal of the new page is to focus on a small number of use cases, then we can talk about designs
David Wood: the goal of the new page is to focus on a small number of use cases, then we can talk about designs ←
16:39:32 <zwu2> ... we have to have a handle on designs that match some use cases
... we have to have a handle on designs that match some use cases ←
16:39:41 <zwu2> ... simplify to move forward
... simplify to move forward ←
16:39:46 <sandro> (I only did three, so far)
Sandro Hawke: (I only did three, so far) ←
16:40:15 <zwu2> cygri: from use cases, we get requirements
Richard Cyganiak: from use cases, we get requirements ←
16:40:29 <zwu2> ... there may be a requirement arises from multiple use cases
... there may be a requirement arises from multiple use cases ←
16:41:28 <zwu2> guus: I think it will be very useful to rephrase use cases as requirements
Guus Schreiber: I think it will be very useful to rephrase use cases as requirements ←
16:41:50 <sandro> +1 guus
Sandro Hawke: +1 guus ←
16:41:52 <zwu2> david: richard I don't think we should get rid of that wiki use case page
David Wood: richard I don't think we should get rid of that wiki use case page ←
16:42:50 <zwu2> action guus: create a new section on use case page
action guus: create a new section on use case page ←
16:42:50 <sandro> maybe "Simplified Use Cases" or "Flagship Use Cases"
Sandro Hawke: maybe "Simplified Use Cases" or "Flagship Use Cases" ←
16:42:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-134 - Create a new section on use case page [on Guus Schreiber - due 2012-01-25].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-134 - Create a new section on use case page [on Guus Schreiber - due 2012-01-25]. ←
16:43:07 <zwu2> ... requirement based on use cases
... requirement based on use cases ←
16:43:27 <AndyS> scribe: AndyS
(Scribe set to Andy Seaborne)
16:43:32 <AndyS> scribenick: AndyS
16:43:35 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
16:44:03 <Guus> ack JeremyCarroll
Guus Schreiber: ack JeremyCarroll ←
16:44:23 <sandro> q+ to address JJC
Sandro Hawke: q+ to address JJC ←
16:44:32 <AndyS> jeremy: about NG, how about writing text and discuss that -- maybe agreement quite quickly.
Jeremy Carroll: about NG, how about writing text and discuss that -- maybe agreement quite quickly. ←
16:44:52 <AndyS> ... focus on text rather the philosophical viewpoints.
... focus on text rather the philosophical viewpoints. ←
16:45:37 <AndyS> sandro: Two ways to read trig leading to different impls.
Sandro Hawke: Two ways to read trig leading to different impls. ←
16:45:39 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy? ←
16:45:50 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (39%), sandro (54%), Ivan (42%)
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (39%), sandro (54%), Ivan (42%) ←
16:46:13 <AndyS> ... (hard to hear) ... Trig for labels, and trig for locations.
... (hard to hear) ... Trig for labels, and trig for locations. ←
16:46:17 <AndyS> q+
q+ ←
16:47:09 <AndyS> David: Jeremy - what was your idea to avoid that?
David Wood: Jeremy - what was your idea to avoid that? ←
16:47:13 <AndyS> ack cygri
ack cygri ←
16:47:22 <AndyS> q-
q- ←
16:47:42 <sandro> sandro: I think me three strawman designs show that code would be different on the clients and the servers, so it's not just unimporant disagreement.
Sandro Hawke: I think me three strawman designs show that code would be different on the clients and the servers, so it's not just unimporant disagreement. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:48:10 <AndyS> cygri: Minimal proposal - tagging, not exact meaning, not tied to HTTP. BNode scope to be done.
Richard Cyganiak: Minimal proposal - tagging, not exact meaning, not tied to HTTP. BNode scope to be done. ←
16:48:24 <AndyS> ... sandro, path say that's not enough.
... sandro, path say that's not enough. ←
16:48:32 <AndyS> .. sandro wants to tei to HTTP
.. sandro wants to tie to HTTP ←
16:48:37 <AndyS> s/tei/tie/
16:49:13 <AndyS> ... progress is limited. Seems that schedule forces us towards the minimal route.
... progress is limited. Seems that schedule forces us towards the minimal route. ←
16:50:35 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
16:50:52 <AndyS> ... tie to HTTP is going to be hard to make work because assumes dereference part of the process. Doesn't work - RDF is disconnected from the protocol currently.
... tie to HTTP is going to be hard to make work because assumes dereference part of the process. Doesn't work - RDF is disconnected from the protocol currently. ←
16:51:10 <AndyS> ... this seems to be useful.
... this seems to be useful. ←
16:51:27 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:51:35 <AndyS> David: can we agree on that couple/decouple point? protocol, NG
David Wood: can we agree on that couple/decouple point? protocol, NG ←
16:51:58 <AndyS> ack sandro
ack sandro ←
16:51:59 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to address JJC and to
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to address JJC and to ←
16:52:01 <Guus> ack sandro
Guus Schreiber: ack sandro ←
16:52:52 <AndyS> sandro: sounds reasonable, Tie to HTTP not most important me, but do need client-server tie. (?? hard to hear a complete sentence)
Sandro Hawke: sounds reasonable, Tie to HTTP not most important me, but do need client-server tie. (?? hard to hear a complete sentence) ←
16:53:23 <AndyS> ... make HTTP part separate.
... make HTTP part separate. ←
16:53:34 <AndyS> ack ivan
ack ivan ←
16:53:45 <Guus> q+
Guus Schreiber: q+ ←
16:54:28 <sandro> sandro: It's fine to have the HTTP part be separate -- that's part of Linked Data, not RDF. What's important is to show how to solve the use cases in a way that actually works, interoperably.
Sandro Hawke: It's fine to have the HTTP part be separate -- that's part of Linked Data, not RDF. What's important is to show how to solve the use cases in a way that actually works, interoperably. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:54:30 <AndyS> ivan: partial response to cygri: a bit of a repeat ... there are two viewpoints, hard to find consensus, but timing forcing is not the proper way.
Ivan Herman: partial response to cygri: a bit of a repeat ... there are two viewpoints, hard to find consensus, but timing forcing is not the proper way. ←
16:54:49 <AndyS> ... acknowledge that and have two syntaxes for the two relationships.
... acknowledge that and have two syntaxes for the two relationships. ←
16:55:14 <AndyS> ... sometimes no relationship, sometimes HTTP version, sometimes "named graph"
... sometimes no relationship, sometimes HTTP version, sometimes "named graph" ←
16:56:03 <AndyS> Guus: chair hat off
Guus Schreiber: chair hat off ←
16:56:23 <davidwood> ack Guus
David Wood: ack Guus ←
16:56:54 <AndyS> ...of Sandros 3 solutions (Trig/REST first) capture current practice and gives a mechanism, semantics.
...of Sandros 3 solutions (Trig/REST first) capture current practice and gives a mechanism, semantics. ←
16:56:59 <Guus> { eg:sandro eg:endorses <g1>. <g1> a rdf:StaticGraphContainer. } <g1> { ... the triples I'm endorsing ... }
Guus Schreiber: { eg:sandro eg:endorses <g1>. <g1> a rdf:StaticGraphContainer. } <g1> { ... the triples I'm endorsing ... } ←
16:57:30 <AndyS> (there is always a container)
(there is always a container) ←
16:58:03 <AndyS> .. and its noted in one of the graphs about how the URI is used.
.. and its noted in one of the graphs about how the URI is used. ←
16:58:06 <sandro> +1 this is a reasonable, workable solution.
Sandro Hawke: +1 this is a reasonable, workable solution. ←
16:59:05 <AndyS> (key is the rdf:type statement not that its a container)
(key is the rdf:type statement not that its a container) ←
16:59:21 <AndyS> Guus: reasonable area for consenus?
Guus Schreiber: reasonable area for consenus? ←
16:59:23 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
16:59:58 <AndyS> ivan: More precise of what I said ... the "syntax" is the rdf:type triple.
Ivan Herman: More precise of what I said ... the "syntax" is the rdf:type triple. ←
17:00:12 <AndyS> Guus: rdf:type optional
Guus Schreiber: rdf:type optional ←
17:00:13 <davidwood> q+ to comment on rdf:type usage once Guus regains the chair
David Wood: q+ to comment on rdf:type usage once Guus regains the chair ←
17:00:26 <JeremyCarroll> q+
Jeremy Carroll: q+ ←
17:00:32 <cygri> q+ to ask about merging datasets
Richard Cyganiak: q+ to ask about merging datasets ←
17:00:37 <Zakim> -LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF ←
17:00:52 <AndyS> guus: put chair hat on
Guus Schreiber: put chair hat on ←
17:01:17 <AndyS> David: I like that we are using RDF as the mechanism. Wide variety of UCs covered.
David Wood: I like that we are using RDF as the mechanism. Wide variety of UCs covered. ←
17:01:24 <AndyS> ack davidwood
ack davidwood ←
17:01:24 <ivan> ack davidwood
Ivan Herman: ack davidwood ←
17:01:43 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, unmute me
Jeremy Carroll: Zakim, unmute me ←
17:01:49 <AndyS> ack jeremy
ack jeremy ←
17:01:56 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to comment on rdf:type usage once Guus regains the chair
Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to comment on rdf:type usage once Guus regains the chair ←
17:02:18 <ivan> ack JeremyCarroll
Ivan Herman: ack JeremyCarroll ←
17:02:20 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll was not muted, JeremyCarroll
Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll was not muted, JeremyCarroll ←
17:02:32 <sandro> then you want my third design, JJC
Sandro Hawke: then you want my third design, JJC ←
17:02:33 <AndyS> Jeremy: I worry about optional features and interoperability. better is to go simple.
Jeremy Carroll: I worry about optional features and interoperability. better is to go simple. ←
17:03:38 <AndyS> ... interoperability depends on the rdf:type e.g. non-monotonic interpretation.
... interoperability depends on the rdf:type e.g. non-monotonic interpretation. ←
17:03:59 <MacTed> best practice = self-description, self-documentation, introspection... container holds things; things might also be containers; recurse.
Ted Thibodeau: best practice = self-description, self-documentation, introspection... container holds things; things might also be containers; recurse. ←
17:03:59 <MacTed> common practice = anything not stated is unknown, and there are many things which might not be stated for many reasons -- and there can't be much enforcement of defaults
Ted Thibodeau: common practice = anything not stated is unknown, and there are many things which might not be stated for many reasons -- and there can't be much enforcement of defaults ←
17:04:05 <AndyS> guus: what about defining good practice or would you want "MUST" text
Guus Schreiber: what about defining good practice or would you want "MUST" text ←
17:04:23 <AndyS> jeremy: general point - significant cost in optionals and choices.
Jeremy Carroll: general point - significant cost in optionals and choices. ←
17:04:41 <AndyS> ack cygri
ack cygri ←
17:04:44 <Guus> ack cygri
Guus Schreiber: ack cygri ←
17:04:57 <AndyS> cygri: 2 questions ...
Richard Cyganiak: 2 questions ... ←
17:05:36 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to ask about merging datasets
Zakim IRC Bot: cygri, you wanted to ask about merging datasets ←
17:05:46 <AndyS> .. 1 - <g1> a graph name, two different assertions as to kind of reference. Conflict on merge.
.. 1 - <g1> a graph name, two different assertions as to kind of reference. Conflict on merge. ←
17:06:22 <sandro> yes -- one drawback of this design is we can get conflicts in the RDF that should be handled carefully.
Sandro Hawke: yes -- one drawback of this design is we can get conflicts in the RDF that should be handled carefully. ←
17:06:44 <AndyS> ?? These conflicts already exist.
?? These conflicts already exist. ←
17:06:44 <ivan> the relationship made explicit is the third option of sandro
Ivan Herman: the relationship made explicit is the third option of sandro ←
17:07:03 <ivan> <a> pred { ? } is the _only_ acceptable syntax then...
Ivan Herman: <a> pred { ? } is the _only_ acceptable syntax then... ←
17:07:22 <AndyS> cygri: relationship view typing, not a triple.
Richard Cyganiak: relationship view typing, not a triple. ←
17:07:37 <AndyS> cygri: relationship indirect via typing, not a triple.
Richard Cyganiak: relationship indirect via typing, not a triple. ←
17:08:20 <AndyS> david: what about callimachus? We type URIs to provide a hint for rendering.
David Wood: what about callimachus? We type URIs to provide a hint for rendering. ←
17:08:55 <AndyS> scribe thinks RDFS domain/range converts property uses to types.
scribe thinks RDFS domain/range converts property uses to types. ←
17:09:19 <AndyS> cygri: may confuse who said what
Richard Cyganiak: may confuse who said what ←
17:09:20 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
17:10:07 <AndyS> cygri: depending on the collection of types offered by us leads to likely clashes (e.g. mutable AND immutable)
Richard Cyganiak: depending on the collection of types offered by us leads to likely clashes (e.g. mutable AND immutable) ←
17:10:34 <AndyS> q+
q+ ←
17:10:46 <sandro> Formally, I suppose we're just using the fact that <x,y,z> can be expressed as <x,y'(z)>
Sandro Hawke: Formally, I suppose we're just using the fact that <x,y,z> can be expressed as <x,y'(z)> ←
17:10:52 <gavinc> hashing helps ;)
Gavin Carothers: hashing helps ;) ←
17:10:57 <AndyS> cygri: endorse container or graph?
Richard Cyganiak: endorse container or graph? ←
17:11:10 <sandro> (in TriG/REST)
Sandro Hawke: (in TriG/REST) ←
17:11:12 <gavinc> Endorsement CAN NOT use only a name.
Gavin Carothers: Endorsement CAN NOT use only a name. ←
17:11:39 <JeremyCarroll> +1 to Richard
Jeremy Carroll: +1 to Richard ←
17:11:40 <AndyS> cygri: mechanism leads easily to problems.
Richard Cyganiak: mechanism leads easily to problems. ←
17:11:54 <sandro> gavinc, right, with endorsement you need to provide some other triples, but this still works.
Sandro Hawke: gavinc, right, with endorsement you need to provide some other triples, but this still works. ←
17:11:59 <AndyS> david: we should design for interop if they follow the rules.
David Wood: we should design for interop if they follow the rules. ←
17:12:25 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: we have a responsibility to have a design that doesn;t make problems inevitable
Richard Cyganiak: we have a responsibility to have a design that doesn;t make problems inevitable [ Scribe Assist by Jeremy Carroll ] ←
17:12:25 <AndyS> cygri: as I understand it, conflict happens inside the rules.
Richard Cyganiak: as I understand it, conflict happens inside the rules. ←
17:12:35 <sandro> I agree the conflict is a challenge, but it doesnt make it unworkable.
Sandro Hawke: I agree the conflict is a challenge, but it doesnt make it unworkable. ←
17:13:09 <AndyS> guus: smallest extension, worth seeing if we can make it workable.
Guus Schreiber: smallest extension, worth seeing if we can make it workable. ←
17:13:50 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
17:14:00 <AndyS> cygri: is dataset merge required?
Richard Cyganiak: is dataset merge required? ←
17:14:51 <Guus> i will ack sandro after this
Guus Schreiber: i will ack sandro after this ←
17:15:06 <AndyS> ack me
ack me ←
17:15:17 <davidwood> Interesting point, AndyS
David Wood: Interesting point, AndyS ←
17:15:27 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll
Zakim IRC Bot: -JeremyCarroll ←
17:15:42 <AndyS> AndyS: Is dataset merge different or saame as graph merge? Have check untrusted graph to merge usefully.
Andy Seaborne: Is dataset merge different or saame as graph merge? Have check untrusted graph to merge usefully. ←
17:15:56 <sandro> sandro: I think this dataset merging problem is comparable to the graph merging problem and can probably be solved that same way.
Sandro Hawke: I think this dataset merging problem is comparable to the graph merging problem and can probably be solved that same way. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
17:16:04 <ivan> In OWL terms what we are saying is that the different types are disjoint, so if a merged graph has a 'double' typing then there is an inconsistency
Ivan Herman: In OWL terms what we are saying is that the different types are disjoint, so if a merged graph has a 'double' typing then there is an inconsistency ←
17:16:25 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
17:16:31 <sandro> agreed, Ivan.
Sandro Hawke: agreed, Ivan. ←
17:17:05 <AndyS> guus: some progress - suggest next week to look at the solutions proposed.
Guus Schreiber: some progress - suggest next week to look at the solutions proposed. ←
17:17:09 <Zakim> -gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc ←
17:17:14 <sandro> (sadly, I'll be in other WG F2F meetings both of the next two weeks.)
Sandro Hawke: (sadly, I'll be in other WG F2F meetings both of the next two weeks.) ←
17:17:38 <cygri> (me too next week)
Richard Cyganiak: (me too next week) ←
17:18:06 <sandro> Im kind of use case driven here.
Sandro Hawke: Im kind of use case driven here. ←
17:18:20 <sandro> Propose a use case, and Ill try to show what types we might need.
Sandro Hawke: Propose a use case, and Ill try to show what types we might need. ←
17:18:24 <AndyS> ivan: sandro away - is it possible to dig into the typing approach by writing proposed 4-ish types for the different way to use the mechanmis.
Ivan Herman: sandro away - is it possible to dig into the typing approach by writing proposed 4-ish types for the different way to use the mechanmis. ←
17:18:29 <sandro> I did that.
Sandro Hawke: I did that. ←
17:18:42 <sandro> I
Sandro Hawke: I ←
17:18:54 <sandro> I'm going to TRY to write up the solutions better on the wiki
Sandro Hawke: I'm going to TRY to write up the solutions better on the wiki ←
17:18:57 <AndyS> (no direct naming?)
(no direct naming?) ←
17:19:21 <AndyS> ADJOURNED
ADJOURNED ←
17:19:23 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
17:19:25 <Zakim> -cygri
Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri ←
17:19:28 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
17:19:28 <AZ> bye
Antoine Zimmermann: bye ←
17:19:30 <Zakim> -davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood ←
17:19:30 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
17:19:31 <Zakim> -sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -sandro ←
17:19:33 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#2) generated 2012-01-18 19:32:41 UTC by 'zwu2', comments: 'Many thanks to Andy for helping out with the scribe!'