Chatlog 2012-10-11

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14:52:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
14:52:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/11-prov-irc
14:52:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:52:31 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
14:52:33 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 
14:52:33 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
14:52:33 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
14:52:34 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:52:34 <trackbot> Date: 11 October 2012
14:52:34 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:52:47 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.10.10
14:53:47 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public 
14:53:55 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
14:54:10 <Luc> Topic: admin
<luc>Summary: Minutes of last week's teleconference were approved.
14:57:24 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
14:57:32 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:57:57 <pgroth> pgroth has joined #prov
14:58:05 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call?
14:58:21 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV
14:58:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller]
14:58:35 <Zakim> ok, pgroth, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started
14:58:44 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
14:58:44 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
14:59:38 <Zakim> +Luc
14:59:47 <Curt> Curt has joined #prov
14:59:48 <ivan> ivan has joined #prov
14:59:52 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes
15:00:08 <Dong> Dong has joined #prov
15:00:31 <ivan> zakim, code?
15:00:31 <Zakim> the conference code is 7768 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
15:00:36 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:00:42 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:00:42 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:00:42 <Luc> hi I am looking for a scribe, thanks
15:00:43 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:00:43 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:00:45 <Luc> hi I am looking for a scribe, thanks
15:00:59 <hook> hook has joined #prov
15:01:00 <Luc> dong?
15:01:02 <Zakim> +ivan
15:01:18 <Luc> @dong, can you scribe?
15:01:25 <satya> satya has joined #prov
15:01:38 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo
15:01:50 <Luc> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, Luc, Curt_Tilmes, MacTed (muted), ivan, Satya_Sahoo
15:01:59 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov
15:02:03 <Zakim> + +1.818.731.aaaa
15:02:20 <Luc> scribe: satya
15:02:41 <Zakim> +jcheney
15:02:42 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov
15:02:56 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:03:00 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov
15:03:31 <Zakim> +Dong
15:03:35 <Luc> proposed: to approve oct 04, 2012 minutes
15:03:46 <ivan> +1
15:03:49 <smiles> 0
15:03:51 <Curt> +1
15:03:53 <hook> +1
15:03:58 <Dong> @luc: sorry, just dialed in
15:04:04 <jcheney> +1
15:04:05 <Dong> +1
15:04:20 <Luc> accepted:  oct 04, 2012 minutes
15:04:38 <satya> Luc: Open Actions
15:04:46 <Zakim> +??P1
15:04:46 <ivan> issue-446?
15:04:46 <trackbot> ISSUE-446 -- prov:involvee not documented in PROV-O -- open
15:04:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/446
15:04:54 <satya> Luc: Action on Daniel regarding Issue 446
15:05:02 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
15:05:06 <satya> Luc: Daniel not on call
15:05:15 <satya> Luc: Action on Tim still open
15:05:27 <stephenc> stephenc has joined #prov
15:05:31 <Luc> @stian?
15:05:41 <satya> Luc: Action on Stian still open
15:05:57 <satya> Luc: Action on Paul to revise Exit criteria - completed
15:06:03 <Luc> topic: CR Exit Criteria
15:06:09 <satya> Luc: Next topic: PROV Exit Criteria
<luc> Summary: Paul revised the CR Exit Criteria following last week's call (http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvCRExitCriteria). They were discussed and minor changes suggested. The group is invited to review them and provide feedback. Dong also drafted the process for prov-constraints implementors (http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/testcases/constraints/process.html). Feedback is also sought.
15:06:20 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvCRExitCriteria
15:06:47 <satya> Paul: New set of exit criteria proposed based on comments during last call
15:07:05 <satya> Paul: Exit criteria for PROV-O and PROV-N are same
15:07:23 <Luc> 'provenance feature' ? is same as 'feature'?
15:07:26 <satya> Paul: Reviewing the exit criteria points
15:07:34 <ivan> q+
15:08:36 <Luc> q?
15:08:41 <satya> Paul: Notes at the end of the page describes the type of implementations 
15:09:38 <satya> Paul: Features for models in the implementation are concepts in PROV-O and constraints in PROV-Constraints
15:10:03 <Luc> q?
15:10:08 <satya> Paul: Evidence to illustrate that the conceptual model was useful for the implementation
15:10:12 <Luc> ack iv
15:10:44 <satya> Ivan: Clarify that two implementations should be independent (not from same department etc.)
15:11:19 <satya> Luc: Developing two toolboxes - would they qualify to be independent?
15:11:31 <pgroth> +Q
15:11:32 <Luc> q?
15:11:39 <satya> Ivan: Depends on the relation between the toolbox and the implementation
15:12:37 <satya> Paul: Downloaded the toolbox from Luc at VU Amsterdam - modified by student, does this qualify? 
15:12:58 <Luc> it is your student who decide which feature to use, and not the toolbox!
15:13:06 <jun> jun has joined #prov
15:13:30 <satya> Ivan: Depends on the type of modifications
15:13:58 <Zakim> +??P27
15:14:02 <Luc> q?
15:14:06 <Luc> ack pg
15:14:12 <satya> Ivan: The W3C directors need to be convinced regarding independence of the implementations
15:14:37 <hook> +q
15:14:49 <satya> Luc: Confusing to use different terms - use "feature" consistently
15:14:52 <satya> Paul: Agree
15:15:05 <zednik> q+
15:15:17 <satya> Luc: Relevant to distinguish between types of implementations
15:15:30 <satya> Paul: Already cover that in the questionaire
15:15:54 <Luc> ack hook
15:15:55 <hook> http://semanticweb.org/wiki/RDFReactor
15:16:19 <pgroth> that's definitely an implemenatiaon
15:16:52 <satya> Hook: Leveraged a tool to auto-generate provenance trace(?) - clarify if it is an implementation or data mining app?
15:17:07 <satya> Paul: It should qualify as an implementation
15:17:29 <Luc> q?
15:17:46 <Luc> is there a requirement to make the code available?
15:17:55 <Zakim> + +1.713.754.aabb
15:18:00 <pgroth> no
15:18:03 <Luc> ok
15:18:12 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov
15:18:14 <pgroth> the only thing is that you right a report
15:18:22 <pgroth> s/right/write/
15:18:30 <Luc> q?
15:18:32 <CraigTrim> CraigTrim has joined #PROV
15:18:37 <satya> Hook: The implementation ensures that the traces are PROV-O compliant
15:19:26 <pgroth> +q
15:19:27 <satya> StephanZ: Add a point to questionaire to describe the tool used in the implementation
15:19:32 <Luc> q?
15:19:33 <satya> Luc: Agree
15:19:35 <Luc> ack ze
15:20:11 <Luc> ack pg
15:20:40 <satya> Paul: Do we have question in questionaire to explicitly describe use of PROV?
15:20:51 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has left #prov
15:21:18 <satya> Luc: What is evidence of the conceptual model being helpful
15:21:35 <Luc> q?
15:21:59 <satya> Paul: Self-reported description in the implementation documentation
15:22:03 <satya> Luc: What is the next step?
15:22:52 <satya> Paul: Up for discussion till next telcon
15:23:24 <satya> Paul: Dong will have example documentation for submission process of implementations
15:23:44 <satya> Luc: What documentation needs to be created?
15:24:02 <satya> Ivan: Current documentation/wiki by Paul is fine
15:24:06 <hook> regarding decoupling models being helpful: the ISO community also takes this approach of decoupling models from encodings. has been quite useful, particularly for ISO 19115:2003 Geographic information -- Metadata  http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=26020
15:24:27 <satya> Luc: Cataloging of test cases
15:24:33 <Dong> The draft test process here: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/testcases/constraints/process.html
15:25:29 <satya> Paul: Dong has set of test cases available on web site - implementation will output text file, which will be evaluated (pass/fail)
15:25:38 <Luc> q?
15:25:40 <pgroth> thanks Dong!
15:26:09 <satya> Luc: Is this approach used only for constraints?
15:26:30 <Luc> q?
15:26:36 <satya> Paul: Yes, for other features we will use Stephan's questionnaire
15:27:02 <pgroth> other than me and you
15:27:03 <pgroth> ?
15:27:03 <satya> Luc: Feedback from implementors of constraints?
15:27:12 <jcheney> not sure i'll have time, paolo is interested
15:27:34 <jcheney> reza had mentioned at f2f3 that oracle is interested; his recent email seems to back this up
15:27:43 <jun> q+
15:27:45 <satya> Luc: Concerned that WG may not have enough implementations
15:27:46 <pgroth> +q
15:28:06 <Luc> q?
15:28:41 <Luc> ack jun
15:28:56 <satya> Jun: Has implemented some of the constraints - uses SPARQL queries to create collection of test cases for identifying violations of constraints
15:29:07 <pgroth> yes
15:29:15 <CraigTrim> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:29:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, Luc, Curt_Tilmes, MacTed (muted), ivan, Satya_Sahoo, +1.818.731.aaaa, jcheney, [IPcaller], Dong, ??P1, [IPcaller.a], ??P27, +1.713.754.aabb
15:29:31 <pgroth> good point
15:29:38 <jun> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/testcases/constraints/process.html
15:29:48 <satya> Jun: Not sure about some of the points in Table 2 of constraint testing process
15:30:08 <CraigTrim> CraigTrim: zakim, I am aabb
15:30:15 <CraigTrim> zakim, I am aabb
15:30:15 <Zakim> +CraigTrim; got it
15:30:19 <Luc> shouldn't identifiers be uris?
15:30:31 <satya> Paul: Agree, some of the points need to be reviewed
15:30:45 <Dong> Thanks Paul
15:30:57 <Luc> q?
15:31:14 <Dong> The 2nd column is meant to list the constraints each test case cover
15:31:33 <satya> Luc: Need to clarify the naming issue (?)
15:31:59 <pgroth> @jun excited that you are doing the constraints
15:32:00 <Luc> q?
15:32:05 <Luc> ack pg
15:32:36 <satya> Paul: Do not intend to implement all the constraints
15:32:56 <Luc> q?
15:32:57 <Dong> BTW, building a complete test suite takes significant effort, I'd like to invite anyone who has constructed test cases for constraints to share them with the group
15:32:59 <satya> Paul: Hence, need more implementors
15:33:25 <satya> Jun: Implementation is in context of the Workflow4Ever project
15:33:47 <pgroth> ack
15:33:49 <pgroth> sorry
15:33:56 <hook> hook has joined #prov
15:34:01 <Luc> q?
15:34:05 <satya> Luc: Review the document and provide feedback
15:34:10 <Luc> topic: prov-dm issues
<luc>Summary: Answers to ISSUE-530, ISSUE-520, ISSUE-522, ISSUE-509, ISSUE-526, ISSUE-502 were circulated during the week and these issues were confirmed to be resolved. We then reviewed and approved the proposed split informative/normative for the PROV-DM document. It followed the guidance given to editors two weeks ago at the teleconference. It was confirmed that we want to keep the table in Appendix as normative, since it states which prov-dm terms maps to which prov-o/prov-n term. It was recognized that this table does not (and need not to) provide all the details required for the mapping. It was suggested that a similar table will also be required for prov-xml. Finally, it was discussed how the UML diagram in Figure 8 has been revised, no longer making explicit inheritance from Influence, so as to address an external comment (ISSUE-519 and ISSUE-523). The group is invited to review the changes during the coming week.
15:34:18 <satya> Luc: Next item: PROV-DM issues
15:34:47 <Luc> ISSUE-530, ISSUE-520,  ISSUE-522, ISSUE-509, ISSUE-526, ISSUE-502
15:34:56 <satya> Luc: all feedback have been incorporated, confirm that the group is happy with the following issues:
15:35:17 <ivan> ISSUE-530?
15:35:17 <trackbot> ISSUE-530 -- Data Model Section 5.7.2 (Table 6) -- open
15:35:17 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/530
15:35:22 <ivan> Issue-520?
15:35:22 <trackbot> ISSUE-520 -- Data Model Section 5.3.1 -- open
15:35:22 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/520
15:35:29 <ivan> ISSUE-522?
15:35:29 <trackbot> ISSUE-522 -- Data Model Section 5.3.4 -- open
15:35:29 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/522
15:35:37 <ivan> ISSue-509?
15:35:37 <trackbot> ISSUE-509 -- Data Model Figure 5 -- open
15:35:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/509
15:35:41 <ivan> Issue-526?
15:35:41 <trackbot> ISSUE-526 -- Data Model Section 5.5.2 -- open
15:35:41 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/526
15:35:46 <ivan> issue-502?
15:35:46 <trackbot> ISSUE-502 -- Data Model Section 2.1.2 -- open
15:35:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/502
15:35:57 <satya> Luc: Confirm there is agreement on this issues
15:36:37 <satya> SimonM: Yes
15:36:47 <Luc> proposed: ISSUE-530, ISSUE-520,  ISSUE-522, ISSUE-509, ISSUE-526, ISSUE-502 are confirmed to be resolved
15:37:02 <jcheney> +1
15:37:02 <smiles> +1
15:37:03 <ivan> +1
15:37:09 <Dong> +1
15:37:23 <zednik> +1
15:37:27 <jun> +1
15:37:31 <MacTed> +1
15:37:42 <Luc> accepted: ISSUE-530, ISSUE-520,  ISSUE-522, ISSUE-509, ISSUE-526, ISSUE-502 are confirmed to be resolved
15:37:54 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Oct/0051.html
15:37:59 <satya> Luc: Next item: Normative sections in PROV-DM
15:38:11 <Luc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/diff/998d228b4a8e/model/prov-dm.html
15:38:53 <satya> Luc: Introduced a new section on compliance in the document and identifies normative sections
15:39:07 <Luc> q?
15:39:51 <satya> Luc: Should Appendix A be normative?
15:39:59 <Luc> q?
15:40:01 <ivan> q+
15:40:19 <satya> Ivan: This should be normative
15:40:23 <Luc> q?
15:40:37 <Luc> ack iv
15:40:38 <pgroth> q+ to ask about namespace
15:40:43 <ivan> ack ivan 
15:40:50 <jcheney> q+
15:40:59 <satya> Paul: Should namespace be normative?
15:41:04 <satya> Luc: It is
15:41:08 <ivan> ack pgroth 
15:41:08 <Zakim> pgroth, you wanted to ask about namespace
15:41:24 <pgroth> 5.74
15:41:26 <pgroth> got it
15:42:06 <Luc> ack jc
15:42:10 <Luc> q?
15:42:10 <pgroth> q+
15:42:14 <satya> JamesC: Not sure if the table is enough to ensure that users are following it
15:42:36 <satya> Ivan: The documents (PROV-O) have the details
15:42:48 <Dong> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-dm.html#cross-references-to-prov-o-and-prov-n
15:44:34 <satya> JamesC: What instructions are present for implementors?
15:45:00 <satya> Ivan: No users will implement the mappings
15:45:18 <satya> JamesC: Ok, was just wondering if there are additional requirements for implementation
15:45:23 <satya> Ivan: No
15:45:24 <pgroth> q+
15:45:40 <pgroth> q+
15:45:59 <satya> Luc: Table is relevant for mapping from one serialization to another
15:46:14 <satya> Ivan: Yes (should not be present in the exit criteria)
15:46:24 <jcheney> OK, so I'm happy with "this table is the starting point", as long as it's clear that it's not (meant to be) a complete spec of the mapping
15:47:00 <jcheney> Perhaps PROV-XML should have such a table too if it doesn't already
15:47:04 <satya> Paul: Having this section as normative helps the users
15:47:09 <Luc> proposed: to accept the split normative/informative in the current editor's draft of prov-dm
15:47:12 <ivan> +1 to James
15:47:13 <ivan> +1
15:47:15 <jcheney> +1
15:47:15 <satya> +1
15:47:28 <Curt> +1
15:47:30 <Dong> +1
15:47:31 <pgroth> +1
15:47:32 <CraigTrim> +1
15:47:37 <MacTed> +1
15:47:48 <zednik> +1
15:48:00 <Luc> accepted:  the split normative/informative in the current editor's draft of prov-dm
15:48:14 <satya> Ivan/Luc: Have a mapping table in PROV-XML
15:48:36 <ivan> great satya 
15:49:00 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Oct/0050.html
15:49:11 <satya> Paul: Updates on the DC and XML in the mailing list
15:49:32 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Sep/0109.html
15:49:36 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Sep/0113.html
15:49:44 <pgroth> @Curt/hook/stephan - can you send a brief update on the list on the status of xml?
15:49:45 <Luc> ISSUE-519 and ISSUE-523 (Influence Inheritance) 
15:49:52 <satya> Luc: Next item: Original issues raised by Robert
15:50:56 <Zakim> - +1.818.731.aaaa
15:52:08 <satya> Luc: Discussing the raised issue, added an extra table for the relations (influencer and influencee)
15:52:09 <Luc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/diff/9fb92e012cec/model/prov-dm.html
15:52:18 <Luc> q?
15:52:19 <pgroth> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/b276b292cd9d/model/prov-dm.html#component3
15:52:29 <Luc> ack pg
15:53:24 <pgroth> q+ 
15:53:45 <satya> Luc: Early feedback can be incorporated before next review
15:54:12 <pgroth> ack pgroth 
15:54:53 <Luc> wasDerivedFrom(e2,e1)  implies wasInfluencedBy(e2,e1)
15:55:11 <ivan> q+
15:55:28 <pgroth> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/b276b292cd9d/model/prov-dm.html#mapping-relations-to-influence-table
15:56:48 <satya> Ivan: This is basically a subPropertyOf correspondence between the properties
15:56:54 <Luc> q?
15:56:57 <Luc> ack ivan
15:56:57 <satya> Luc: Yes
15:56:59 <ivan> ack ivan 
15:57:12 <satya> Luc: Feedback on the proposal
15:57:27 <ivan> q+
15:57:50 <satya> Ivan: Is this an editorial change for clarification
15:57:53 <satya> Luc: Yes
15:58:13 <Luc> q?
15:58:16 <Luc> ack iva
15:58:38 <Luc> topic: prov-xml
<luc>Summary: Stephan briefed the group on progress on the prov-xml schema and associated document.
15:58:46 <satya> Luc: Next item: PROV-XML
15:58:48 <pgroth> next week
15:59:41 <satya> StephanZ: Discussed feedback from implementations (e.g. Luc) and updated schema
16:00:25 <satya> StephanZ: Created tools to build automated html pages from concepts descriptions (?)
16:00:46 <satya> StephanZ: Updates based on feedback progressing smoothly
16:01:16 <Luc> q?
16:01:48 <ivan> thanks to all, bye
16:01:52 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:01:53 <jun> bye
16:01:54 <Zakim> -ivan
16:01:55 <Zakim> -CraigTrim
16:01:56 <Zakim> -??P27
16:01:59 <Dong> thanks, bye
16:01:59 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes
16:01:59 <jcheney> bye
16:02:00 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:02:00 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo
16:02:03 <Zakim> -jcheney
16:02:06 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
16:02:18 <Zakim> -??P1
16:02:26 <Zakim> -pgroth
16:02:29 <Zakim> -Luc
16:02:40 <Luc> rrsagent, set log public 
16:02:44 <Luc> rrsagent, draft minutes 
16:02:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/11-prov-minutes.html Luc
16:02:47 <Luc> trackbot, end telcon 
16:02:47 <trackbot> Sorry, Luc, I don't understand 'trackbot, end telcon '. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
#16:02:50 <Zakim> -Luc.a
16:02:52 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended
16:02:52 <Zakim> Attendees were pgroth, Luc, Curt_Tilmes, MacTed, ivan, Satya_Sahoo, +1.818.731.aaaa, jcheney, [IPcaller], +1.713.754.aabb, CraigTrim
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